chiropractors....I ain't sure

[aha]

Ok I have met people that go to chiropactors on a regular basis whether they have anything specific wrong with them or not ( like an injury). But I have managed to make it so far in life without even being tempted to go to one. Hell I am not even sure I spelled it correctly. The one time a DO did manipulation on me I was crippled for a week. So my question is this..is this a TRULY a legitimate medical profession? I don't think they can even write prescriptions can they? But they are called doctors right? I am not trying to belittle any chiropractors out there just wondering.

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"Look honey, there's the little dipper, I'd show you the big dipper but my zipper is stuck."
-aha

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Look, all it is , is a $75 back rub.

Go to a licenced massage therapist, & you can get the same thing; cheaper, & without the crock of BS.

Or, go to the other type of massage place & get some fun for your money.

Either one is a better investment of your cash.

Chiros are not A.M.A. members; & the A.M.A. does not endorse the practice.

'Nuff said.

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"Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you."----Jung

[Fretful Porpentine]

The site http://www.chirobase.org has a lot of info about this subject. The author is obviously biased, but, as far as I can tell, he's also pretty knowledgeable.

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=== '>

[handy]

Yeah, its a real science, has real practioners. But like some, they tend to embellish on what it can do.

[timmar68]

Greg used to have frequent ear infections. The doctors and I tried all sorts of stuff to keep them under control. We finally did but in the meantime a friend told me that her daughter suffered from ear infections and took her to a chiropractor. She said that cured the ear infections and suggested I take Greg to one. How do spinal manipulations cure an ear infection?

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MaryAnn
No, stupid, it's a boat!

[Holly]

Chiropractic is not, technically, science. It's based on the idea that all illness is caused by subluxations, or tiny misalignments in the spinal column. (Your chiropractor will no doubt find several of these on your xrays; many chiropractors like to take lots of xrays because it's quite profitable.) Supposedly, a vital force travels down the nerves from the spine and is responsible for the health of all your organs. Only by frequent spinal manipulations, and often large doses of vitamins (thoughtfully and conveniently sold at the chiropractor's office) can you remain healthy.

Needless to say, this hypothesis is not based on fact and there is no scientific evidence to prove illness is caused by a disruption in some mysterious vital force.

A chiropractor might tell you he can cure your child's ear infection; many chiropractors do not believe in the germ theory of disease (which, unlike chiropractic, has quite a bit of evidence to back it up). Occasionally, chiropractors cause severe injury and even death to their patients, such as by rupturing the vertebral arteries in the neck.

Not all chiropractors are frauds, however. Some limit their business to doing spinal manipulations on people with back pain, etc. I'd suggest reading material from some skeptical sources.

[TBone2]

OK, here's some personal experience....

WAY back in '96, I was stricken with back problems so severe that I couldn't work. Hell, I couldn't walk! I was basically dysfunctional. I asked around, and went to a reputable chiropractor.

I'm not going to say that the DC performed a miracle, but she DID: (1) quickly and relatively cheaply define the problem; (2) alleviate the pain; and (3) get me started with exercise and self-therapy that have enabled me to control the problem.

And YES, DC's love their X-ray machines, but that's not always a bad thing! In my case, the chiropractor took an even half-dozen shots, from a variety of angles, during the first visit. One -- and ONLY one -- of the shots showed a problem that several doctors and one hospital ER had missed: a "split" fracture of L5, the lowermost vertebra in my spine. My best guess is that the injury occurred in 1982 (I remember the incident well), but fourteen years of bitching to various AMA types had gotten me nowhere. (One AMA member diagnosed my problem as being 'blood clots' in my right leg. I think he had blood clots in his head.)

I have since been to other chiropractors, and I do think the DC's tend to 'pad' the bill with relatively useless stuff like ultrasonic and electro-muscle therapy. And they love to peddle their organic concoctions, in lieu of prescription medicines. BUT everything 'Dr. Janet' told me about my condition and its treatment has turned out to be right on the money.

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I don't know why fortune smiles on some and lets the rest go free...

T

[Spiritus Mundi]

Anecdotal evidence:
I had horrible migraines. I was, quite literally, bed-ridden for much of a year. Doctors eventually diagnosed a partial fusion of the 1st cervical vertebra. Proposed solution: complete the fusion, permanently restricting my neck mobility. Went (because my grandmother made me) to an osteopath. He performed chiropractic manipulation on my neck. No instant relief, but in a matter of weeks I was able to function normally most days and rarely took the massive doses of pain killers to which I had become accustomed. Within 6 months, I had stopped refilling the prescription.

Anecdote 2:
My girlfriend of teh time was experiencing back pain. She went to a chiropractor. Many x-rays later he had diagnosed her with 1 leg shorter than the other and recommended a thrice weekly regimen of masage and manipulation. I demonstrated to her (through the simple act of heving her lie down and marking where her trousers met her ankle) that her legs were very much the same length. I talked her into enrolling in a fitness class and, lo and behold, her back pain went away.

I will be forever grateful for teh relief I found (and for being able to turn my head like a normal person), but caveat emptor -- there are some bad people out there with shingles on the door.

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The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.

[Manduck]

This (http://www.canoe.com/ChiroYork/home.html) may be of interest.

[Beruang]

M. Gardner's "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science" took on chiropractic, osteopathy, homeopathy, and other quackery almost a half-century ago, and it's stilla good read.

[Cartooniverse]

More evidence. Yes, many Chiro's love X-rays, but not always for the reasons stated. Set aside the bile for a second, ok? The doctors who missed that fracture mentioned above? Why aren't THEY the frauds? Any good chiro, upon taking a new case, may want some shots. Not because they love the profit( Mine has no imaging machines at all), but because they recognize that there are things-MANY THINGS- that are outside of their purvey. It's not called fear of lawsuits, I like to think it's called being thorough, and professional.
I have seen two chiros in my life, different as night and day. The first one followed a fall while wearing the camera harness I use for making my living. It's called a Steadicam, and forces the spine to rotate in TWO axis as one walks/stands still/runs. I fell down, while running once. Felt pain withing minutes. Was unable to walk well the next morning ( thank god it was a one-day shoot). Went off to Dr X on West XXth ST, in NYC. He was a real " Rack Em, Crack Em" kind. VERY agressive, very tough. I had sprained the ligaments in my middle back. ( Who the hell knew one could do that? Not moi!). I saw him at least twice a week for a few months. The ONLY thing he did that really helped was the electric therapy, whereby a current is passed THROUGH the muscles, from one pad to another. It lets the muscles relax from spasm, and allows the pressures on the nerves to ease up. Pure Heaven. But, I was sore after each visit.
Now, I go ( albeit VERY rarely ) to the Faire Dr. Marie. She has an amazing approach. I don't even know the proper terms for her approach. She put her hands gently on my daughter's chest, and pressed in here and there, and announced, " She's got a stomache bug". We smiled kindly at the insane Dr. Until daughter woke up vomiting that night, and didnt stop for a few days.
She's gentle, and precise. Her true knowledge of the CNS is daunting ( sure, I grilled her when I first went- I didn't want to be like one of the poor souls mentioned about, who had their head torn off by some idiot).
Like ANY medical technician, a good one blends the ability to TRULY listen, and watch, with a depth of skill. I would urge people to not blindly throw the idea of chiropractic away. Instead, find one who will always turn to full traditional medicine when it's called for. Dr. Marie has turned people away in front of me, because she was presented with what was clearly a spinal injury. She's not interested in being an Ortho, and said as much to the person ( with more grace than I just used here).
It works. Vertibrae shift, and settle, and rotate. A complete and accurate adjustment ought to make you A) NOT sore at all, and B) Feel slightly high. The release of subtle tensions around the spinal cord always make me feel buzzed.

Just my 1/50th of a dollar.
Cartooniverse

" If you want to kiss the sky, you'd better learn how to kneel. "

[Shirley Ujest]

(Long post ahead alert)

Our medicine here in the US is the best in the world. However, I strongly beleive they over prescribe drugs and the doctors are 1) so rushed to see patients and 2)fear of malpractice 3) the insurance industry strong arming them that leaves fearful to try anything new.

I don't believe entirely in Chiropractor. I've never gone to one. But two members of my family, both desperate for relief and both had exhausted the conventional methods.

#1 - My mom ( very common sense person), 72, woke up one day and could barely walk. Thought it was the sciatic, but only in the back area. No accidents or falls at all recently. Her back was killing her. Regular doc took xrays found nothing wrong and prescriped RX figuring it was an inflammation of something. For weeks the pain was so bad it took her minutes to get from her bedroom to the kitchen. RX wasn't working. WEnt back to doc. more xrays and decided for her to go to therapy. She did. Didn't really help. (This is where old age pessimistic thinking kicks in)
She decided it was her back going and refused to have back surgery and would have to learn to live with the pain. After a very frank discussion with her ( by me), and having a few friends of hers talk to her, she went to a Chiropractor that was highly reccommended. She had to use a walker to get into the office she was in so much pain. She was not optimistic at all. Frankly, I think she was figuring this was the 'one foot in the grave' time for her.

After the x-rays, it was discovered her hips are not aligned ( she had an accident as a teen that probably threw them out of whack, and four pregnancies that didnt help either. Her regular doctor and xray technician had no comment of why they missed this during two previous xrays.)
and he did the massage/adjustment stuff. She was able to walk without the walker out of the office. She goes now once a week and is 95% better. If she skips a week, she starts getting crippled up.

(As for the hip alignment, pregnancy threw mine out of whack and I gave myself 10 months of tightened muscles in my lower back to get back into shape before going to my doctor. I was recommended for therapy ( I was already doing stretches, yoga, hot packs to releive the tightness.) Went to a great therapy place ( that my father in law goes to) and just by looking at my naked lower back, could see it was out of alignment. Two weeks later and faithful to exercises, I was fine. I can tell this time around with pregnancy, I will have to do it again because I am carrying lower.)

#2. My cousins had their third son. From the get go, this little guy would bring his knees up to his chest and wail like a banshee after every breast feeding. He cried all the time, except for thirty minute or so cat naps. Ruling out dietary things that momma was eating, and tired of being told it was colic and he'd grow out of it ( most colic is at a certian time of day, not 24/7). Most colic ends at 3 months. Three months came and went and no relief. They went to a variety of doctors and specialists and were all told it was "an immature digestive tract" and that at about 6 months it would straighten itself out.

At the seven month mark, the kid is screaming like a hot poker is shoved up his butt still and no one in the house has slept since his birth. They tried every trick in the book and even old wives tales. There was something definately wrong with their son and they were being pooh poohed by the Doc's as nervous parents. (After two kids, they ain't nervous, they were exhausted and frustrated.) Finally, in desperation, they went to a friends brother who was a chiropractor. Couldn't hurt, nothing else was working.

The guy listened, they said very intently to the symptoms. Didn't take any xrays and did a deep tissue massage in one area. Their son, for the first time since being born, stopped crying and slept through the night. Haven't had a problem like that with him since.It is speculated he had a pinched nerve that was causing the problem. They refer to him now as Glenn2, the nice one and the early months as His Evil Brother.

another quickie for you. The reason my mom finally caved in was the story of her friends daughter who had a 2 year old that was chronically constipated to the point of sickness, severe bloating and misery. Nothing the pediatrician and specialist did helped her. It was a problem from birth on, apparently. After exhausting all normal avenues, they went to a chiropractor. I'm not sure if he did a massage or an adjustment, but on the way home, that little girl pooped so much it blew out her diaper, filled up her pants AND half of the car seat. She has never been constipated since.

I think there are quacks out there in this feild, just like any field, but with this one , since it does seem so rampant, it is best to chose a chiropractor by a recommendation of someone you trust.

[Diceman]

Be careful with the back-snappers! A former co-worker of mine went to one to take care of some pain he was having (I think he was in an auto accident). The chiropracter made the problem even worse. Completely ruined his ability to lift heavy objects.

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"I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms." -The Secret of Monkey Island

[David B]

As has already been indicated, there really are two different types of chiros -- those who recognize that they can treat back and neck problems, and those who think they can treat ear infections, cancer, asthma, etc. The first are, IMO, fairly close to physical therapists who specialize in one area. If you have a back problem and go to them, you will get much the same treatment as if you go to a physical therapist. The second are quacks of the lowest order and should be avoided at all cost. These are also the folks who want insurance companies to allow them to be designated as "primary care physicians." I'm sorry, but that's utter baloney. I would not take my son to see a physical therapist for an ear infection -- I'm sure not going to take him to see a chiropractor.

[David B]

Incidentally, there have been some recent studies on the effectiveness of chiropractic. In some cases, they haven't been terribly successful even for lower back pain! Anyway, I summarized one article in the following; page down to the second segment: http://www.reall.org/newsletter/v07/n06/reallity-check.html

Also check out this summary, paging down to the very bottom segment: http://www.reall.org/newsletter/v06/n09/reallity-check.html

[sixseatport]

Personal experience:

The coach of my crew team in college was a Chiropractor, which was great because rowers tend to get a lot of back injuries. He would give us free workups, fixing our backs if there was a persistent problem. If it was anything minor, though, he told us to just 'work it out.' (He wasn't the most sympathetic coach in the world....).

Anyway, he seemed to know what he was doing as far as back and neck problems go. As long as it was limited to physical (as opposed to biological or chemical) problems, he was able to help us out a lot. He did tell us, though, on more than one occasion that we shouldn't bother to see most chiropractors, because they were, in his opinion, quacks.

Also, he always said that as soon as something became critical (broken born, torn muscle or ligament, infection), we should see a real doctor and forget about the witch-doctor stuff (as he liked to refer to his line of work sometimes).

[Doctor Jackson]

David B, on Chiropractors:
If you have a back problem and go to them, you will get much the same treatment as if you go to a physical therapist.

Thank me David, as I save you from the wrath of my wife ;). She, being a PT, would have a fit if she saw that statement! While a D.O. may prescribe some exercize and/or self therapy, as TBone2 noted, that is pretty much where the similarity ends. A Physical Therapist would never "manipulate" a spine (or any other bone structure) or claim to heal any disease. While it is true that the ultimate outcome of a PT regimen vs. a D.O. regimen may be the same, the methods and theory are vastly different. It is also worth stating that one cannot legally visit a PT without a perscription from an MD, but one can visit a DO anytime (another source of consternation for PT's).

Anyhoo, I'll save you this time - next time you're on your own!



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The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs. -- E. Grebenik

[BigRoryG]

Too sum up: If you have back pain, go to a chiropractor. If you have any other type of physical injury or maladie, go to your G.P. and he or she will prescribe you where to go. In fact, he or she will probably send you to a reputable chiroprcator.

Personally, I find it's nicein Canada because the doctors aren't out to make a buck off the patients - they get paid by the government. I go to a chiropracotr regularly for ack pain, and find that he happens to be fairly knowledgeable about the rest of my healthcare issues, none of which I trust him with solely - but he is helpful.

The key here is to find a good chiropractor. One who would actually tell you wen the problem you have canot be cured by spinal manipulation.

Cheers.

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"C'mon, it's not even tomorrow yet..." - Rupert

If you need a graphic solution, http:\\talk.to\Piglet (http://talk.to\Piglet)

[Padeye]

For the best of both worlds find an osteopathic physician. A D.O. is as qualified as any M.D., and legally recognized as such, but takes a more holistic approach to health without being new age. They prescribe medication as needed but tend to do so less than an M.D. As for spines they can crack backs with the best of them.

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"Popeye? Hm? He's not much of a judge of women!" King Blozo

[Holly]

It's important to educate yourself and be alert for con artists. Certainly, as has been noted before, many chiropractors are honest. Unfortunately, the field is not well regulated so you must watch out for yourself.

My in-laws all go to a chiropractor instead of a physician for every illness except for life-threatening situations, such as car accidents. At the chiropractor's direction, they avoid traditional medicine at all costs, refuse to have their kids vaccinated, and gobble hundreds of dollars worth of vitamins every month. He has flatly stated that germs do NOT cause disease, and they believe him.

One of my sisters-in-law has had kidney stones removed three times; analysis of the stones revealed they were composed of Vitamin C and calcium. I don't think it was a coincidence that she was taking (on the chiropractor's advice) fifty or so tablets each of Vitamin C and calcium every day. I don't know the exact dosage of the tablets but it was some godawful amount. She refused to stop taking the vitamins.

My other sister-in-law went to the chiropractor for a viral infection; he advised her to stop wearing metal jewelry for one week. Her cold went away before the week was up, so she views this as proof of a cure.

I will be the last person to argue that traditional medicine is perfect. It's not; doctors can't cure everything, they sometimes make mistakes, and their bedside manner is often terrible. Still, this does not imply that chiropractic is therefore safe and effective.

[SoMoMom]

About the ear infections:
Many times a child has their neck bent way out of wack while being pulled from their mother during the birth process. This happened to my oldest. The silly thing wanted to be born face up so I needed assistance from the OB in getting her out. Anyway, that's the start. THEN the vertibrae are out of place which causes the muscles connected to them to be tight all of the time. Mingled among these neck muscles are the nerves that lead to the parts of the ear and also the eustachian tubes. If the neck muscles are tight, they are choking off the nerve impulses in the nerves and also the free flow of the eustachian tubes. This can lead to chronic ear infections.

You shouldn't just go see a chiropractor for chronic ear infections. It is an aid to what the MD can do for you in that situation. Other possibilities that people don't think about are food and environmental allergies. In my experience, a chiropractor will try and make you think if their is a trigger like diet that an MD will ignore. If they can't write a Rx for it, it's not worth looking into.

[Bricker]

I am looking at several pamphlets from a chiropractitioner (?) located in Albany, New York.

The titles are:

"Allergies," "Asthma," "Blood Pressure," "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome," "Ear Infections," "Emphysema," "Fibromyalgia," "Healthier Children with Chiropractic," "Immune System Disorders," "Infants & Babies," "Strengthen Your Immune System," and "Why Should I Return If I am Feeling Fine."

Without doing a lot more typing, I will simply state that each pamphlet represents chiro 'therapy' as a solution for the ailments or people in the brochure.

Further, deponent sayeth not.

- Rick

[David B]

Doctor Jackson: My brother is a PT as well. I didn't mean that the chiros in the "quack" group would give the same therapy -- I was talking more along the lines of the chiros in the non-quack group. Sure, it won't be exactly the same treatment, but it probably won't be too very far off. You're right, a PT wouldn't do spinal manipulation and all that, though.

Regarding osteopaths, I offer the following link: http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

Quoting from its first few lines: "Osteopathic physicians (DOs) are the legal and professional equivalents of medical doctors. Although most offer competent care, the percentages involved in chelation therapy, clinical ecology, orthomolecular therapy, homeopathy, ayurvedic medicine, and several other dubious practices appear to be higher among osteopaths than among medical doctors."

[aenea]

Rick, LOL - you read Harlan Ellison or what?

As for the rest of this...well I had a chiro appt. last night and asked a few questions for y'all.

My doc had to go to college for the same amount of time that medical doctors do. That is 4 years as an undergrad, and 4 years in med school. He says that the only difference in education for them was that when M.D students took classes in giving prescriptions, he and his classmates were taking extra neurology and related classes. I wasn't there.......it's just what he told me. Of course he added lots more. He went on to explain why licensed physicians and licensed chiro's can give you a physical exam and come up with a diagnosis and a physical therapist can only follow the aforesaid diagnosis.

(anecdote/) After the only major accident I have yet had, my left arm was knocked partly out of it's socket, and a rib was poking my right lung. My chiro had that rib taken care of in a matter of minutes. Breathing painlessly is GOOD! As for the arm thing, it was eased back into place and fully healed within 2 weeks. The doctor's at the hospital (after the accident) said I would need surgery. (/anecdote)

Both kinds of doctors (MD and Chiro) can be extremely helpfull........depending on your injury.

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JBW

*Oh No - Not another learning experience!

[David B]

Hmmmm...

I wonder how many classes on non-musculoskeletal (hey, that might even be a real word) stuff the chiros have. I'm sorry, but I find it very difficult to believe that they take "the same classes" except the prescription stuff. Also he neglected to mention that even if they go to school for the same amount of time, docs still go into residency for an even longer period.

I'd also love to know how he thinks he can "diagnose" just like a doctor -- in terms of ear infections, strep throat, heart disease, cancer, eye problems, ulcers, etc.

[Bricker]

Rick, LOL - you read Harlan Ellison or what?

Um... undoubtedly I've read a few short stories of his over the years, although nothing comes to mind... and I must admit I don't get the reference at all - what made you think of Harlan Ellison?

- Rick

[Irishman]

Regarding chirocraptic - er, chiropractic, see the links.
http://www.quackwatch.com/

Scroll down to questionable therapies, there is a whole block on chiropractic.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiro.html (1st link in list)

Why is it chiropractic? Shouldn't that be an adjective? Shouldn't the noun form be chiropractice? Chiropracty? Chiropterix? Chirpracticality?

There are some good chiropractors, who stick with spine and skeletal system. There are many who pull every alternative medicine/new age mysticism / all western medicine is bad type junk they can dig up and convince you to buy.

A controlled study or two was conducted that showed a real benefit to some chiropractic. However, that was limited to controlling lower back pain, and was no different than moderate exercise. Basically your body can shift out of alignment, but exercise will work it back. It just may take longer to do it yourself.

[Anecdote] My sister has problems with her back, partially from a back injury in college, but also a misalignment of the hips. This is shown on X-ray and was identified as a teen, causing some mild scoliosis. She does see a chiropractor from time to time when her back gets out of whack. A quick office visit and it fixes a debilitating pain and nausea. However, that's all she goes for. Otherwise she visits a real doctor. My brother, on the other hand, is deeply in to new age and alternative therapies, and visits a chiropractor regularly who uses "Contact Reflex Analysis", or reflexology. That is the practice of feeling spots and how the body moves and reacts and diagnosing illness. See Quackwatch regarding reflexology. My brother swears by it, but then he thinks he's clairvoyant.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

If you have lower back pain, GO TO A LICENSED MASSAGE THERAPIST!!!!

It's safe; cheaper than chiro; makes no goofy claims;is non-sexual & can actually help.


Don't trust anybody who says that "germs don't exist". If somebody says that to you, offer him $50 to drink a glass of stagant swamp water without contracting diarrhea. Maybe his "life force manipulations" will prevent it. If not......HA!

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"Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you."----Jung

[Holly]

SosoMom said:If the neck muscles are tight, they are choking off the nerve impulses in the nerves and also the free flow of the eustachian tubes. This can lead to chronic ear infections.
I've never heard this before. In nursing school, we were taught that ear infections are caused by germs (as are all other infections); clogged or inflamed Eustacian tubes can lead to ear infections. Young children are particularly vulnerable to ear infections because their Eustacian tubes aren't fully mature and are at an awkward angle that makes them more likely to become occluded. I don't understand how problems with the nerves around the ears or in the neck can cause infections, nor do I see how childbirth can disrupt the Eustacian tubes (which are located inside your head, not really anywhere near your neck).

If they can't write a Rx for it, it's not worth looking into.
While I understand the sentiment behind this statement- not all doctors are super-great at listening to patients, and some are motivated too much by money- I still think this is an unfortunate generalization. The vast majority of the doctors I know (even the ones with bad bedside manners) are honestly concerned with their patients' welfare. I know very few who will simply write a prescription without carefully considering other treatments as well as, or instead of, medication. Often, frankly, a prescription is what the patient needs. BUT, even if ALL medical doctors were jerks and medicine was completely useless, this would still not prove that chiropractic is better.

I do agree with you, SoSoMom, that if you go the chiropractic route, it's good to use it in conjunction with traditional medicine and not as a substitute for it.

My husband went to the chiropractor for mild back pain. The adjustment caused such severe pain that my stoic husband was in tears, could not drive or feed himself or dress himself for two weeks, and lost 3 weeks of work. The chiropractor admitted the adjustment had exascerbated the problem.

When my handicapped son was about 5 days old, we were at the chiropractor for my husband's adjustment. The chiropractor took one look at baby Jake (who was born with contractures of every joint in his body and is missing several major muscles altogether) and said he'd seen this thing several times before and could cure it. (My son's birth defect is very specific and very rare- I've only met one doctor in my city that has ever seen a case.) Though I was skeptical (not skeptical enough, obviously) I let the chiropractor do an adjustment on Jake. He lay the baby face down on my stomach and popped his back so hard that it felt like I'd been punched. It literally knocked the wind out of me, and Jake took the brunt of the impact. Jake screamed for about an hour afterwards; I was worried that he might have suffered some internal injury. What kind of a psychopath would do such a thing to a baby, much less a handicapped, underweight newborn baby?

Anecdotes prove nothing.

[David B]

Holly said:I've never heard this before. In nursing school, we were taught that ear infections are caused by germs (as are all other infections)Yeah, but what the hell do you know? I mean, you actually believe in germs and stuff. Ha!

[fyslee]

A few short observations:

Manipulation does not equal chiropractic. But chiropractic does equal manipulation! MDs, DOs, PTs and DCs use manipulation. The difference in use by these professions is in regards to indications, contraindications, technique and frequency. DCs are the only ones that: call it "adjustments"; use it to "correct subluxations" (chiropractic subluxations do not exist in the real world); use it on asymptomatic individuals; use it frequently (always); and use it to treat problems outside of the neuromuskuloskeletal system.

Quacks exist in all professions. Quackery does not have to involve bad motives or fraud. Good motives do not justify quackery. Malpractice and negligence are not quackery

There are generally two types of chiros: Traditionalists, as described above (philosophic) and Reformists (scientific) represented by the NACM.

Some types of problems respond best to a hands-on approach (manual therapy), possibly combined with medicine, but don't respond well to medicine alone. So anyone using manual therapy, quack or not, will likely get a better result than medicine alone.

Massage and exercise can do wonders.

The back is much more than the spine/vertebral column.

Joint mobilization can nearly always make manipulation superfluous, and should therefore be preferred.

When the back is "out of alignment" it is not out of joint. That can't happen without a fracture (and then manipulation/adjustment would be absolutely contraindicated). It's most likely tense muscles that are pulling it crooked. Treat the muscles with warmth, massage and stretching, and combined with the use of joint mobilization - presto, your back is now aligned again! No need for manipulation/adjustment.


Regarding the relation between the professions of Physical Therapy and Chiropractic:

"IMHO, NACM-minded DCs need to abandon the old "ship"
completely and find another name for their new "ship"." - PL

To the quote of mine above, I got the following reply from a reform chiropractor:

"They can't... it's already called "physical therapy." In fact,
PTs represent perhaps the greatest potential threat to "chiropractic"
and chiropractors that I can think of (besides insight, that is).
If they as a group ever decided to "embrace" manipulative therapy
by adding to their baseline requirements for graduation, after
the battle-dust between the professions cleared, there would be
no requirement for a separate profession called "chiropractic."
IOW, whatever it is that chiropractors CLAIM is valid biomedically
about what they do, the so-called (and much overrated) "baby" in
chiropractic's turbid bath-water, would ALREADY be a part of what
physical therapists could offer. And that, as they say, would be
that." END QUOTE


A FEW RELEVANT LINKS

The Spin Doctors Investigation
http://www.canoe.ca/ChiroYork

Chirobase: A Skeptical Guide
http://www.chirobase.org

Chirowatch
http://www.chirowatch.com

National Association for Chiropractic Medicine (NACM)
http://www.chiromed.org

NCAHF Position Paper on Chiropractic
http://www.ncrhi.org

Skeptic's Dictionary: Chiropractic
http://dcn.davis.ca.us/go/btcarrol/skeptic/chiro.html

HCRC FAQ Sheet: Chiropractic
http://www.hcrc.org/faqs/chiro.html

Malpractice is an inevitable result of chiropractic philosophy and training
http://www.chirobase.org/01General/modde.html

Chiropractic's elusive "subluxation"
http://www.chirobase.org/01General/chirosub.html

Concerns About Chiropractic At York Univ.
http://www.ndir.com/chiro
http://www.ndir.com/chiro/sram.html

Angry scientists fight univ. attempt to affiliate with chiropractic college
http://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-160/issue-1/0099.htm

Chiropractors May Not Use the Term "Physical Therapy"
http://www.apta.org/govt_aff/news-a_cmp.html


I am now in the process of reading the classic work by Dr. Samuel Homola, DC, "Bonesetting, Chiropractic and Cultism". An on-line transcript of the book exists on Chirobase: http://www.chirobase.org/05RB/BCC/00c.html .

Excellent reading!! It covers the subject thoroughly, from the viewpoint of a second-generation chiropractor.

In case you haven't guessed it yet, my "specialty" in the study of healthfraud and quackery is ....... chiropractic!....;-)

FWIW,

Paul Lee, PT
Denmark

PS: Any replies to this should also be sent to me by e-mail, as I don't regularly monitor this great site.


E-mail - healthbase@post.tele.dk
HF List Intro. - http://www.hcrc.org/wwwboard/messages/197.shtml
The Quack-Files - http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

[HorseloverFat]

(Long post ahead alert)

Our medicine here in the US is the best in the world. However, I strongly beleive they over prescribe drugs and the doctors are 1) so rushed to see patients and 2)fear of malpractice 3) the insurance industry strong arming them that leaves fearful to try anything new.


I don't want to get too off-topic here, but that statement is mostly bullshit. For those who have healthcare in the States, their HMO-style care is usually about the same level as the socialized medicine you find overseas. A paying privledge here is standard in most of Europe and everyone can get treated. When it comes to quality of life issues the US is lucky to make it in the top 10.

[Shirley Ujest]

(Long post ahead alert)

Our medicine here in the US is the best in the world. However, I strongly beleive they over prescribe drugs and the doctors are 1) so rushed to see patients and 2)fear of malpractice 3) the insurance industry strong arming them that leaves fearful to try anything new.


I don't want to get too off-topic here, but that statement is mostly bullshit. For those who have healthcare in the States, their HMO-style care is usually about the same level as the socialized medicine you find overseas. A paying privledge here is standard in most of Europe and everyone can get treated. When it comes to quality of life issues the US is lucky to make it in the top 10.




Horse, I have several friends who are doctors. One general surgeon, One specialist, One Emergency room medicine, Two OB's and a heart surgeon. These people are from different aspects of my life and with the exception of the two surgeons who are brothers, do not know each other. I'm not making up statements out of my butt. I have listen to their shop talk and the medicine we have here in the US is the best in the world.Everyone of them says this.

It's our healthy care system that is out of whack. Of the two surgeons, one now does research work because he doesn't want to deal with the insurance companies. To make a surgical decision based on what someones HMO/Medicaid/BCBS says is wrong. Funny how I cannot disagree with him on that score.

If you think National Healthcare is so great, ask a Canadian. Most of them ( that I know and I have cousins in Eh-ville) carry supplemental insurance so they can come over to the states to get what they need to have done in a timely fashion and not put on some list.

There are some pro's to National Health Care in itself and the only one I can think of is: Pregnancy, birth and recovery. In England, a woman can be in the hospital for as little as a few hours to as much as 7 days after birth. She decides. She also receives free eye and dental care for a year after birth. ( Optical and dental are not covered in NHC)

There has to be something between National Health care and the debacle we call Insurance here in the states. A happy medium. A common ground. Doubtful it will happen in our life times.

All I can say is that I am very grateful to be insured and to be very healthy. And to have friends in the medical profession I can call if I need to to get the real scoop if I feel I'm given the run around.

[astro]

Over a year ago I managed to really mess myself up. I could bench press 280 + lbs with no problem but getting my big butt out the chair to get the remote control was too much trouble so I leaned and twisted to get it from another chair and felt "a little tug" in the vicinity of my lower back.

Over the next three weeks an intense, fiery pain running up and down my right leg more or less immobilized me and I had to walk with a cane it got so bad.

A primary care doc saw me and prescribed muscle relaxants and pain killers. He thought it was a torn ligament/muscle or a pinched nerve. If it didn't get better my itself he foresaw surgery as the next step.

Over the next week or so the pills temporarily dulled the pain but otherwise did nothing. One evening I needed to move a large dresser and despite the pain hoisted it up to get it out of the way. This involved lifting and turning with a large 100+ lb piece of furniture. Immediately and I mean _IMMEDIATELY_ after I did this the pain went away as if it had never been there. This was as close to miracle as anything I have ever experienced.

I was subsequently told by a client who owned a GYM that I had essentially "adjusted" the pinched nerve myself. Why the primary care doc never did this or suggested it be done I don't know. Now that I have figured out the solution if I ever suspect I have pinched a nerve I can do a series of excruciatingly intense stretching exercises and the problem goes away.

Chiros are probably half quacks but if they have chiros that can do for other people what I did for myself I don't think they will be out of business anytime soon especially when "real" docs are not inclined to get beyond the "pills/knife...next patient please" methodology.

[Chronos]

This is something that I've wanted to address on here for a while-- it irritates me whenever I see chiropractic lumped in with various forms of quackery. There is a legitimate field of chiropractic. The problem only comes in when the practitioners make claims beyond that area. Chiropractic techniques can, in fact, help back pain dramatically. Earaches? Nausea? No surprise here, but chiropractic is useless there. There's also some talk bouncing around about just how qualified a chiropracter is. As it happens, I have a cousin who is a chiropractor. He has a Doctorate of Medicine, same degree as your general practitioner has. I'm not sure if the M.D. is a requirement in his state (PA), but he's said that one should never go to a chiropracter unless he has an M.D.
Admittedly, there are people who claim to be chiropracters, without any qualifications, and who use these claims to rip people off. These folks are no worse than bogus oncologists, or surgeons, or any other medical professional. Likewise, the fact that there exist sham artists claiming to be oncologists does not mean that all oncologists are shams.

[pennys]

SoMoMoM: There is no evidence that any type of delivery causes tight muscles in the neck, little newborns are very soft and elastic and well able to take all kinds of deliveries. Can I point out that even a normal delivery can present with the neck twisted around 180 degrees. I can't believe that anyone would try to manipulate a baby's spine and I can only suspect that this practice must have dangers.

I suppose the baby who stopped crying may have done so for fear that the performance would be repeated!

I also dispute that American Health Care is the best in the world. It is merely the most technologised. It is common knowledge that American medical graduates have relatively poor clinical skills but certainly know what tests to order. Graduates of the British, Irish, Australian medical schools prbably have better clinical skills, Germans and Indian graduates are worse. Americans are also somewhat reluctant to take notice of overseas research and have been known to persist with treatments which have been demonstrated subsequently to be less effective. I seem to recall that the mgso4 vs phenytoin for pre-eclampsia debate was an example of this.

[fyslee]

Chronos writes:
As it happens, I have a cousin who is a chiropractor. He has a Doctorate of Medicine, same degree as your general practitioner has. I'm not sure if the M.D. is a requirement in his state (PA), but he's said that one should never go to a chiropracter unless he has an M.D.

There are of course some DCs who are also MDs. In France it's a ploy to get around the laws against the practice of chiropractic. After getting their MD degree, they then go on to continue practicing chiropractic, apparently unaffected by their contact with a scientific education.

Whether your cousin's "Doctorate of Medicine" is legitimate or not (I'll assume that it is), it is not a requirement for a DC in any state. His reasons for saying that leave me wondering. There do exist D.M. and M.D. degrees that are NOT the same as a real general practitioner's degree. In chiropractic circles this is a real problem. The following example illustrates the point well. Although it's a bad case, it is far from the only one:

Some Notes on the Activities and Credentials of Jay M. Holder, D.C.
http://www.chirobase.org/15News/holder.html

Read this too:
http://www.chiro.org/chiro-list/newsfile/holder.htm

> Chiropractic Blasphemy?

>> In the October issue of The American Journal of Clinical Chiropractic, publisher Donald Harrison, MS, DC, FICA, tackles the issue of the use of false academic credentials by DCs. This is a problem that needs to be seriously looked at by our profession. Dr. Harrison cites two examples of false credentials in associated articles beginning on his front page. He questions the "PhD" of Ronald Aragona, DC (1) The other article describes his findings after investigating the "MD," "PhD," "Albert Schweitzer Award," "Knighthood," and "appointment to the faculty, Pharmacology, University of Miami" of Jay Holder, DC (2) <<

In this article can be found an alternative interpretation for the M.D. degree:

"....outstanding students are awarded an M.D. (which is their abbreviation for Masters Degree)."

Anyone in possession of such a degree, can most often be assumed to have bad intent. Otherwise, Why would they acquire it? The way they tell about it will often reveal an intent to mislead. They give the false impression that it is a bonafide MD degree (real medical doctor).


Now to another comment: Admittedly, there are people who claim to be chiropracters, without any qualifications, and who use these claims to rip people off.

This is of course a punishable offense and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Claiming to be an MD, DC, PT, DO, etc., when you aren't, is illegal. Likewise, claiming to give chiropractic treatment, if you aren't a DC, is illegal. It is misleading. The same principle applies to anyone claiming to give physical therapy treatment, if they aren't a PT. This practice (extremely common among DCs) is now illegal in Pennsylvania, possibly New Jersey and some other states.

The decision of the PA Supreme Court forbidding DCs from using the term "physical therapy" is worth looking at: http://www.apta.org/govt_aff/news-a_cmp.html

The use of terminology that can be misleading is what the court addressed.

Some DCs use the term "adjunctive therapies" instead. This is an acceptable substitute, which leaves no confusion and reveals good intent. That I can respect.

Paul Lee, PT
The Quack-Files - http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

[Chronos]

Minor quibble, fyslee: My cousin never claimed that possesion of a M.D. degree was a requirement to practice chiropractic-- that was my own uninformed speculation. What he did say, was that the degree was a requirement to practice well, and that a (possibly legal) chiropracter without a medical degree should not be trusted in his practice. I hadn't heard about the scams where MD stands for "master's degree", although it does sound like something that I can see con artists coming up with. However, I can assure you that when this cousin of mine puts "M.D." after his name, he means the same thing by it that C. Everett Koop does. The bottom line is, whenever you're visiting a chiropracter (or anyone else claiming to produce medical benefits), make sure you know going in who and what you're dealing with.

[fyslee]

Chronos writes:
However, I can assure you that when this cousin of mine puts "M.D." after his name, he means the same thing by it that C. Everett Koop does. The bottom line is, whenever you're visiting a chiropracter (or anyone else claiming to produce medical benefits), make sure you know going in who and what you're dealing with.


Glad to hear it about your cousin. And I also agree with your last sentence.
(BTW, I really like your Einstein quote. How true!)

Paul Lee, PT

[fyslee]

David B. writes:
Doctor Jackson: My brother is a PT as well. I didn't mean that the chiros in the "quack" group would give the same therapy -- I was talking more along the lines of the chiros in the non-quack group. Sure, it won't be exactly the same treatment, but it probably won't be too very far off.

The non-quack group is unfortunately a very small group. Some of them are active in the NACM http://www.chiromed.org . I am in contact with several of them and can respect their views very much. They are not afraid to admit that most of their colleagues don't know their limits and do use quackish methods of practice and marketing. In fact, most of what passes as post-graduate training is actually practice building seminars.


You're right, a PT wouldn't do spinal manipulation and all that, though.

Depends on where the PT practices. I'm in Denmark, where PTs are allowed to use ALL forms of manual therapy. This unfortunately results in some PTs acting like DCs and manipulating the hell out of their patients. I'm doing what I can to educate Danish PTs to not consider the typical DC's way of practicing as desirable.

Personally I consider it a failure on my part if I can't avoid manipulating. I prefer joint mobilization. Much safer too.

[CurtC]

BigRoryG wrote:
Too sum up: If you have back pain, go to a chiropractor. If you have any other type of physical injury or maladie, go to your G.P.I'm glad that you didn't advise me of this ten years ago. A rough parachute opening shock while skydiving left me with some pretty severe neck pain for a week or so, and six weeks after the incident I decided to have it looked at. I was skeptical of chiropractic even then, and I went to see a GP. He took a few X-rays, and didn't see anything... on the first look. But he thought he saw a funny shadow, so had me take another image with my head bent down. That image showed my C2 vertebra (the Christopher Reeve one) opened up wide, which it did every time I bent my head down.

I know that a chiropractor could have seen this if he was being careful, but it scares the hell out of me to think what might have happened if a chiro had overlooked it and attempted a manipulation on my fragile C2.

[fyslee]

CurtC wrote:
BigRoryG wrote:
Too sum up: If you have back pain, go to a chiropractor. If you have any other type of physical injury or maladie, go to your G.P.That image showed my C2 vertebra (the Christopher Reeve one) opened up wide, which it did every time I bent my head down.

I know that a chiropractor could have seen this if he was being careful, but it scares the hell out of me to think what might have happened if a chiro had overlooked it and attempted a manipulation on my fragile C2.

If you survived, you may well have suffered the fate of Christopher Reeve. If not.....well, look at this:

The Spin Doctors Investigation
http://www.canoe.ca/ChiroYork

Never let anyone, MD, DO, PT or DC manipulate the first two cervical vertebrae (C1 & C2). Mobilization, yes. But not manipulation. And if a DC calls it an "adjustment", beware: he's probably looking for those pesky "subluxations", which EVERYONE has myriads of, and which cause ALL diseases! And he's got only ONE cure-all: adjustments!.....=:0(

Paul Lee, PT
Denmark

E-mail - healthbase@post.tele.dk
HF List Intro. - http://www.hcrc.org/wwwboard/messages/197.shtml
The Quack-Files - http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

***********************************************************************************

[Major Feelgud]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss chiropractors. PTs, MTs, MDs, DCs, DOs, I know them all and each is good for maladies in their own field.

Physical therapy - untouched in rehab, these are the only guys who can do it.

Massage therapy - there are some good ones, but because of the educational requirements, most are not expert in injuries, better for back rubs.

Chiropractors - Again due to low education standards, there are a lot of quacks around, and I mean a lot of them. But untouched in certain types of problems. Sometimes manipulation or mobilization IS needed for pain relief and you better believe it. I have low back pain which is relieved by manipulation, and I wouldn't trust PTs, MTs, or MDs to do it. It's just that DCs do this everyday, they get good at it. Just make sure it's a problem that manipulation will help first.

DOs (Osteopaths). Same as MDs in the US, but not in other countries (e.g. UK, Australia). Depends on what they want to specialize in. There are DOs who are OBs or pediatricians. Some specialize in back pain. But dirty secret is that some hospitals or schools will not take DOs as staff.

MDs: Internal meds or family practice, pretty much clueless as regards LBP, NP, etc.

MDs: (specifically orthopedists). Don't get them mixed up, these guys are not trained in manipulation, they look at things from a surgical point of view. Mainly good for severe stuff, not for your run of the mill LBP. And you better believe fusions are done when they shouldn't have been. I don't believe orthos are much good for things like LBP.

As in anything, there are incompetents and morons in each field (what is the person graduating last in med school called? Ans: Doctor).

And stay away from chiros who say they can cure cancer etc., actually report them to the state medical or chiropractic board.