Why do we call him "Jesus?"

[Dale The Bold]

When he was a baby, he was named Emmanuel (God is with us). His name was Yashua. People called him "Teacher," "Messiah," or "Christ." Why do we call him "Jesus?"

[Fang]

AFAIK, Jesus is kind of a transliteration of "Yehoshua" - "Joshua". Much like "Paul" ("Saul") or :Mary" ("Miriam").

[Loopus]

"Jesus" is the Latin form of "Joshua," which was more or less His real name. He wasn't actually named "Emmanuel," although Mary was told that that would be His name.

That, incidently, explains why "Jesus," in one form or another, is still a common name in Romance Language speaking countries while no one has that name in English speaking countries. "Jesus" is simply Latin for "Joshua."

-Loopus

[Dale The Bold]

Then is "gee-zuss" the correct Latin pronunciation, or is that "Americanized?"

[Loopus]

According to thisLatin pronunciation guide (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Information/LatinPronunciationGuide.html), Jesus in Latin should properly be pronounced "Yay-sooss." I think.

-Loopus

[JRDelirious]

Originally posted by Dale The Bold
Then is "gee-zuss" the correct Latin pronunciation, or is that "Americanized?"

Quite anglicized. In Latin it would be something like: "yeh-soos" , but with a short "oo" sound (remember, in old Latin it's written Iesvs). Jesus is itself a Latinization of the Greek rendering of Y'shua/Yehoshua.

Oh, and at least in Spanish, the Old-testament Israelite leader is called "Josué" (I guess our Bible translators skipped one of the linguistic middlemen for the OT) and the names clearly reference the two distinct Biblical characters.

[Shodan]

Because "Billy Christ" sounded stupid.

[Johanna]

JRDelirious, to say that the Latin pronunciation of Iesus has a short "oo" sound is incorrect. It's a long vowel. Rhymes with "Cayuse" —

Just turn me loose, let me straddle my old saddle
Underneath the western skies.
On my Cayuse, let me wander over yonder
Till I see the mountains rise. — but I digress...

Check some source on Latin that indicates vowel length, and thou shalt see that in Iesus both vowels are long.

It's simply a Latinization of Greek ’Iêsous (hey, no more symbol font for writing Greek? Gosh darn it!). As you know, the Greek ending -ous corresponds to Latin -us with long u — it's the fifth declension or something like that — while Latin -us with short u corresponds to Greek -os, first declension. This long u explains why in Italian Gesù the accent goes on the final syllable, and why it remained -ù instead of changing to -o (as is usual in Italian).

The original Hebrew of Jesse, Joshua, Josue, and Iêsous is all the same form: Yehôshûa‘. The u vowel is long in the original Hebrew, which explains why it remains long in Greek and Latin. The Yeho- part is short for Tetragrammaton, Yod Heh Vav Heh, the Divine Name that no one knows how to pronounce. The Jews substitute Adonai ('Lord') for Tetragrammaton when reading aloud. The Hebrew root shin-vav-‘ayin means 'salvation', so the meaning of Yehoshua‘ is: 'the Lord is salvation'.

I looked in the Ben-Yehuda Pocket Hebrew dictionary for shin-vav-‘ayin, but the only words from this root in modern Hebrew are shivva‘ 'to cry for help' and sheva‘ or shavva‘ 'hue and cry' (a public call for help). In other words, calling for to be saved.

In Greek, there's no such thing as h in the middle of a word, so the internal h had to drop out. Also, Greek lacks the "sh" sound, so substituted sigma instead. Added a final -s to make the name fit into the patterns of the Greek declension system. This explains how Yehoshua‘ got turned into "Jesus."

The Rastafari believe it's disrespectful to Christ to say his name rhyming with "cheese us", so they change the pronunciation to have a short e, to rhyme with "chess us." Remember Bob Marley singing

I'll never forget no way
They crucified Jessus Christ
I'll never forget no way
They sold Marcus Garvey for rice

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by Jomo Mojo

The original Hebrew of Jesse, Joshua, Josue, and Iêsous is all the same form: Yehôshûa‘.

Minor nitpick. Jesse, in Hebrew, is not Yehoshua. It is Yishai, an entirely different name.

Zev Steinhardt

[Johanna]

Thanks for setting me straight on Jesse, Zev. But tell me this: Is it based on the same root, shin-vav-‘ayin?

[syncrolecyne]

In Spanish, "Jesus" is almost always religiously called "Jesucristo" or "Cristo" - or never called "Jesus" alone in some translations. When he is called "Jesus" alone, it is done reproachfully " Jesus..'king of Jews' " by his Roman accusers. Or in other situations, when he was viewed as human or referred to as such, This suggests that to merely call him "Jesus" is to treat him like a mere mortal. So for a human to carry the name "Jesus", at least in the Spanish context, is clearly distinct from calling someone "Jesucristo".

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=spanish

Of course the age and target of the translation makes a difference. I believe these Bibles are mainly Protestant.

The Vulgate (which I don't understand) alternately calls him Iesu Christi or Iesus.

I don't know if the same distinction is made in other languages. For instance, I know some Orthodox Christians have names such as "Christo, Kristos, Hristo" etc. Are these they same names that Greek or Bulgarian people use in their scriptures to refer to Jesus? Or are they just names related to Jesus.

[Johanna]

The Muslims frequently use the given name ‘Îsá (Arabic for Jesus), more frequently than either the Spanish or the Greeks, I think. Sometimes you see it spelled "Issa" but there's actually only one s in it. However, I never heard of any Christian Arabs using the given name Yasû‘ (their form of it).

[emulsified]

According to the master in this (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_035a.html) column, Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name "Joshua."

Shouldn't Unca Cece have the last word?

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by Jomo Mojo
Thanks for setting me straight on Jesse, Zev. But tell me this: Is it based on the same root, shin-vav-‘ayin?

I doubt it. Yishai does not have the vav or ayin. The vav can easily disappear depending on the tense of the word, but making the ayin disappear is a lot harder.

Zev Steinhardt

[handy]

Yes, it was his given name.

If it was you, your name would be Dale Christ. 'Christ' can be used to indicate atonement.

[cmkeller]

Loopus:

He wasn't actually named "Emmanuel," although Mary was told that that would be His name.

Unless you're quoting from a New Testament verse I'm unfamiliar with, you're quoting from the famous "virgin" verse in Isaiah7:14, so the person to whom the prophecy was being told was King Ahaz of Judah.

(Disclaimer: Of course, we Jews ;j do not consider that prophecy to be a reference to JC anyway, and we translate the Hebrew word in question as "young woman.")

[Loopus]

Originally posted by cmkeller
Unless you're quoting from a New Testament verse I'm unfamiliar with, you're quoting from the famous "virgin" verse in Isaiah7:14, so the person to whom the prophecy was being told was King Ahaz of Judah.

From Matthew 1:20-23 (KJV, since it's what I have handy):

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


I was wrong, though, about Mary being told this; it was actually Joseph. And, in this passage the angel mentions both the names Emmanuel and Jesus. Obviously, the author of Matthew was trying to connect Jesus's birth to Isaiah 7:14, misinterpreting it as you mentioned (the Greek version of the Old Testament, which the authors of the New Testament were familiar with, switches "young woman" in the Hebrew version for "virign," making it look like a different prophecy all together.).

-Loopus

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally posted by handy
Yes, it was his given name.
Gosh, should we ignore all the previous posts by knowledgeable people telling us how it was not his given name, but just a local translation?

[cmkeller]

Loopus:

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Sounds to me like the "prophet" referred to in verse 22 is in fact Isaiah, who had been speaking to Ahaz.

But thanks for finding the NT reference.

Chaim Mattis Keller

[JRDelirious]

Originally posted by Jomo Mojo
JRDelirious, to say that the Latin pronunciation of Iesus has a short "oo" sound is incorrect. It's a long vowel. Rhymes with "Cayuse" —

(Cole Porter snipped)
[/i]

Well, waddya know... learn something new every day. Gotta talk to a few old priests about their accents, though :p

[handy]

"Gosh, should we ignore all the previous posts by knowledgeable people telling us how it was not his given name"

Everyone has their own opinion, esp. where the bible is concerned. The bible can be interpreted in lots of ways. I don't know what you read lately, but I just sold my Interpreter's Bible, 48 lbs & 11,000 pages. I never could read it all.

[c_carol]

Obviously, the author of Matthew was trying to connect Jesus's birth to Isaiah 7:14, misinterpreting it as you mentioned (the Greek version of the Old Testament, which the authors of the New Testament were familiar with, switches "young woman" in the Hebrew version for "virign," making it look like a different prophecy all together.).

I feel compelled to offer a few words in defense of Matthew here. The Isaiah prophecy, in context, seems to refer to events in his own time, and therefore not to a literal virgin birth (though the girl in question might have been a virgin at the time the prophecy was given. My understanding is that there wasn't a word exactly equivalent to English "virgin" anyway (I could be wrong about this.)) _However_, this doesn't necessarily mean that Matthew is being dishonest. What he might be doing is claiming to find a double meaning in the passage -- that the child of Isaiah's prophecy is a kind of foreshadowing of the Messiah. It seems weird to modern western minds, but the original audience would have understood what he was doing.

What do you think?

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by c_carol


I feel compelled to offer a few words in defense of Matthew here. The Isaiah prophecy, in context, seems to refer to events in his own time, and therefore not to a literal virgin birth (though the girl in question might have been a virgin at the time the prophecy was given. My understanding is that there wasn't a word exactly equivalent to English "virgin" anyway (I could be wrong about this.)) _However_, this doesn't necessarily mean that Matthew is being dishonest. What he might be doing is claiming to find a double meaning in the passage -- that the child of Isaiah's prophecy is a kind of foreshadowing of the Messiah. It seems weird to modern western minds, but the original audience would have understood what he was doing.

What do you think?

Well, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on Matthew and Isaiah, but...

First of all, there is a specific hebrew word for virgin. The word is besulah. That is not the word used in Isaiah. Isaiah was not referring to anyone being born of a virgin.

Secondly, the woman in question was not a virgin when the propehcy was said. Verse 14 says ha-almah harah "the young woman has conceived. The word harah is past tense. She was already expecting at the time Isaiah made his statement.

Thirdly, there is nothing in the text to indicate that this verse is messianic, whether talking about someone in Ahaz's lifetime or 700 years later.

If Matthew wants to find a double meaning in the text, that's fine, but then he's going way beyond the text of the verse and context of the text.

Zev Steinhardt

[Loopus]

Originally posted by cmkeller
Sounds to me like the "prophet" referred to in verse 22 is in fact Isaiah, who had been speaking to Ahaz.

You're right. On second reading, I can see that this part of the passage was not the angel, but the author of Matthew himself talking.

Originally posted by c_carol
_However_, this doesn't necessarily mean that Matthew is being dishonest.

I didn't accuse the author of Matthew of dishonesty. I just said that the version of the Old Testement he was familiar with was improperly translated, leading him to believe a prophecy reffered to a virgin when, in the original, it didn't. It wasn't really his fault; it was the fault of the Greek translator who substituted "virgin" for "young woman."

-Loopus

[Chronos]

So, what was Isaiah prophesizing, then? "A virgin shall be with child" sounds to me like a miracle, and something of note, but "A young woman shall be with child" is something that anyone could tell you. What's the significance?

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by Chronos
So, what was Isaiah prophesizing, then? "A virgin shall be with child" sounds to me like a miracle, and something of note, but "A young woman shall be with child" is something that anyone could tell you. What's the significance?

He was reassuring Ahaz. Judah was about to be attacked by Israel and Aram. He was telling Ahaz (the king of Judah) that by the time the kid (who was already on the way) is old enough to know the difference between god and bad, he would no longer need to worry about the two invading armies (i.e. they would be defeated by then). It wasn't a prophecy about the kid; it was about the invading armies.

Zev Steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by zev_steinhardt
between god and bad

:rolleyes: Make that good and bad...

Zev Steinhardt

[tomndebb]

The "young woman" vs "virgin" issue arose during the creation of the Septuagint, the Greek translation of Jewish Scripture made in Egypt beginning around the third century B.C.E.

In that work, the Jewish almah (young woman) was translated to Greek parthenos (virgin).

If it was you, your name would be Dale Christ. 'Christ' can be used to indicate atonement. Nah. Christ, meaning "annointed"--an attempt to render the Hebrew word we call messiah into Greek--was a title, both as Paul used it and as it was later used in the Gospels. It was certainly not a "given" name and no one would have used it when addressing Jesus to his face. In Paul's epistles, he is as likely to refer to "Christ Jesus" as to "Jesus Chrit" and he also refers to "the Christ."

As to the "atonement" connection, Nah, again. While various Christian explorations of what messiahship means might overlap with the concept of the sacrifice of Calvary, the name or title "Christ" has no such inherent association.

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by tomndebb
The "young woman" vs "virgin" issue arose during the creation of the Septuagint, the Greek translation of Jewish Scripture made in Egypt beginning around the third century B.C.E.

In that work, the Jewish almah (young woman) was translated to Greek parthenos (virgin).


Minor hijack here:

Of course, one must wonder if the authors of the Septuagint considered the word parthenos to actually mean 'virgin' in the sense that we mean it today. A similar word parthenou is used to describe Dinah at Genesis 34:3 (where she was most definitely not a virgin).

Zev Steinhardt

[handy]

'Given name' works for me. Even Websters says that it's function is a biographical name. Which is fine by me.

"Christ=atonement" works for me, because it indicates a reconcilation of Christ & god with man's word for this.

You can of course take it up with Websters, tomndebb.

[kniz]

Originally posted by tomndebb
Nah. Christ, meaning "annointed"--an attempt to render the Hebrew word we call messiah into Greek--was a title, both as Paul used it and as it was later used in the Gospels. It was certainly not a "given" name and no one would have used it when addressing Jesus to his face.

Actually IMHO if he knew that this term was used to identify him, he would turn over in his... I guess that isn't possible.

[tomndebb]

It can "work for you" if you wish, handy, but since this is the Straight Dope where we are trying to put forth accurate information, we need to have some accurate information to counter what works for you.