DC Comics and gorillas - what's the deal?

[Mr. Blue Sky]

From the JLApe debacle to Gorilla Grodd on Justice League, DC seems to really like their gorillas.

WHY?

[DrFidelius]

Why not?

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Originally posted by DrFidelius
Why not?


I asked you first :D

[Otto]

Monkeys are funny.

[Dr. Rieux]

Monkeys are funny.
EVenso, technicall speaking, gorillas are not monkies, so--

Eewww! Stop throwing that!

[Dr. Rieux]

I apologize for the above errors.
My gorilla is still learning to type.

[Fenris]

The short answer: Gorillas are cool. And anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The long answer: Mort Weisinger (sp) at the height of Superman's popularity (mid' 50s to mid '60s) would often discuss upcoming Superman stories with the kids in his neighborhood (he knew the key to success was staying in touch with his audience). They wanted Myxztplk(sp) to turn a nuclear sub into a giant bananna and Superman had to save the day? Guess what would happen 4 or 5 issues later? They wanted Superman's head to get turned into a giant ant's head? Superman meets President Lincoln? He gave the kids what they wanted. And Gorillas kept coming up, hence "King Krypton"(maybe...he may have preceeded Mort) and slightly later, Titano, the Super Ape (who was a gorilla, regardless of the name or his original species) the giant beast with kryptonite vision. And Red Kryptonite encounters to turn Supes into a gorilla and Jimmy Olsen gets captured by gorillas, and Beppo the Super-Monkey and...etc. Superman has rarely been better and NEVER been more surreal than when Mort Weisinger was at the helm. Superman also outsold any other comic books (except the Disney books, possibly) during Mort's reign)

Anyway, allegedly, every time a gorilla appeared on the cover of Superman, sales jumped by a significant percentage (5%? 10%?)

Other editors wanted a piece of that market share: (not in any order): Msr. Mallah from Doom Patrol, The Gorilla Crime Boss (name mangled) from Batman, Gorilla Grodd from Flash, Congo Bill got his amazing Congorilla with whom he swapped minds) , um...probably NOT Giganta from Wonder Woman (a gorilla-chick evolved into a woman. I think she preceeded all this and she wasn't really a gorilla anyway) and I'm sure there's more that I'm not thinking of right now.

Hell, even Stan Lee gave it a shot: The Red Ghost and His Super Apes were right during this period.

Anyway, that's the reason: for some reason, between say, 1954ish and 1964ish, Gorillas were hot with the prepubesent set.

Fenris The Super-Ape

[Hometownboy]

Boy, Fenris, if it weren't for a certain saucy tone that's consistent through your posts, I would freakin' swear that you were a committee of polymaths who will be taking over the world in their own sweet time but want to have some fun on the boards first. I mean, sheesh, where do you find the time to know all this stuff?

After all, when a person gets down to Congorilla, they're demonstrating a depth of knowledge that's stunning. Next thing you know, you'll be talking about Adam Strange or Space Cabbie.

We are not worthy, etc.

In humble awe,
Hometownboy

[Legomancer]

Someone, Julius Schwartz, I believe, once said that covers with gorillas, fire, or the color purple cosistently sold more than other books, so if you wanted to have the best selling comic of all time, have a Purple Gorillia on Fire on the cover.

[toadspittle]

Originally posted by Legomancer
have a Purple Gorillia on Fire on the cover.

Grape Ape! Grape Ape!

[cmkeller]

HoometownBoy:

After all, when a person gets down to Congorilla, they're demonstrating a depth of knowledge that's stunning. Next thing you know, you'll be talking about Adam Strange or Space Cabbie.

And what's wrong with talking about Space Cabby (http://www.geocities.com/tourist5010/cmkeller/scabby/)? :)

(Just to make the point, since it's not very clear from the incomplete web page - I created that page.)

[E-Sabbath]

Nothing wrong with Space Cabby! He showed up in Starman sometimes...
Heck, even the Space Patrol Canine Agency has had a few appearances, in both Animal Man and Legion.

The thing is, if you start talking about Paste-Eater Pete, you have a problem.

Now, to drag this back on topic, this very reasoning gave us the imprint of Gorilla Comics, which included Kurt Busiek's amazing Shockrockets, as well as several other very good titles. It was short-lived, but the mascot was, indeed, a purple gorilla on fire.

[Fenris]

Originally posted by E-Sabbath

The thing is, if you start talking about Paste-Eater Pete, you have a problem.


< condescending 'Comic Book Guy' voice >
ExcUSE me? I BEG your pardon?

The character's name is Paste-POT Pete.

Sheesh.

</ condescending 'Comic Book Guy' voice >
;)

And thanks, Hometownboy!

But if we wanna talk trivia, Space Cabbie isn't all that much of a stumper. Dr Strange (Iron Man bad-guy), Black Zero (or Black Circle...can't remember which), The Scarlett Beetle, The Living Eraser, Thomas Wayne, Maaaad Dr. Doom (no relation) and Chester, Baron Von Grabbe, the almost Earth-3? THESE are obscure characters.

Space Cabbie? Not so much. ;)

Fenris

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Sorry to argue with a comics maven, Fenris, but Thomas Wayne and Chester are not obscure characters.

Thomas Wayne is the father of Bruce Wayne who is Batman.

Chester was the hippy who befriended Swamp Thing and Abigail Arcane.

Incidentally, do any of your remember that Swamp Thing annual where Rick Vietch used every damn gorilla character in DC comics history? I didn't care much for it, but some of you might go ape over it.

[E-Sabbath]

Originally posted by Fenris


< condescending 'Comic Book Guy' voice >
ExcUSE me? I BEG your pardon?

The character's name is Paste-POT Pete.

Sheesh.

</ condescending 'Comic Book Guy' voice >
Fenris

GOTCHA YA!

Should have looked a bit closer.
Paste-Eater Pete is a member of the Legion of Galactic Guardians.

What? It's from Spider-Boy!

All right, I know Amalgam is cheating. Paste-Eater Pete is a merger of Paste-Pot Pete (The Trapster), and Matter-Eater Lad.

And what's obscure about Bruce's Dad? He showed up in Earth 2 recently. The Black Circle is a Legion Villian Group, Black Zero is from the recent Superboy Hypertime adventure.

I know of the rest, but can't recall them offhand, I keep thinking of the Scarlet Centurion and that fat Doom Patrol villian.

[Fenris]

Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote
Sorry to argue with a comics maven, Fenris, but Thomas Wayne and Chester are not obscure characters.

Thomas Wayne is the father of Bruce Wayne who is Batman.

Chester was the hippy who befriended Swamp Thing and Abigail Arcane.

Incidentally, do any of your remember that Swamp Thing annual where Rick Vietch used every damn gorilla character in DC comics history? I didn't care much for it, but some of you might go ape over it.

A) Not THAT Thomas Wayne. (I think. Now I'm unsure about the name...Damn.)

B) Not that Chester. I'm talking about Maaaad Dr. Doom (no relation) and Chester.

Fenris

[Fenris]

Originally posted by E-Sabbath


GOTCHA YA!

Should have looked a bit closer.
Paste-Eater Pete is a member of the Legion of Galactic Guardians.

What? It's from Spider-Boy!

All right, I know Amalgam is cheating. Paste-Eater Pete is a merger of Paste-Pot Pete (The Trapster), and Matter-Eater Lad.

And what's obscure about Bruce's Dad? He showed up in Earth 2 recently. The Black Circle is a Legion Villian Group, Black Zero is from the recent Superboy Hypertime adventure.
A) Fair enough on the Paste-Eater Pete thing. Ya got me! :D

B) I wasn't talking about Bruce's Dad. But now I'm wondering if I got the name wrong. Hmmm...

C) You're thinking of the Dark Circle.

D) The original Black Zero (and his horribly devistating continuity problems on Earth 1

E) The fat Doom Patrol bad guy is Garguax. Scarlet Beetle has nothing to do with the Scarlet Centurion.

Fenris

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

I haven't heard of either of those characters you mentioned, Fenris.

Jesus Christ, dude, what have you done: memorize the 70-year output of every comics company? I am in awe.

[Papermache Prince]

Perhaps people are thinking of Thomas Wayne Jr., Bruce's older brother?

Obscure cite (http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1185/atlas3.html)

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Thanks for the input, guys and gals(?). To me, monkeys (and other primates) are things that SEEM like they would be funny, but IRL are not.

[CalMeacham]

and slightly later, Titano, the Super Ape (who was a gorilla, regardless of the name or his original species) the giant beast with kryptonite vision.

Yes. You are no doubt aware that, in his first appearance, he was a space-going chimp exposed to a collision of kryptonite meteors, causing him to grow and develop kryptonite vision. He looked pretty dorky, with those huge ears, and it was a distinct improvement when they quietly turned him into a gorilla in later stories.


For my part, I like Sam Simian of Angel and the Ape, especially the revival story that Phil Foglio did about ten years ago.

[KneadToKnow]

Originally posted by Legomancer
Purple Gorillia on Fire
Band name!

[Fenris]

Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote
I haven't heard of either of those characters you mentioned, Fenris.

Jesus Christ, dude, what have you done: memorize the 70-year output of every comics company? I am in awe.

Well, not the whole 70 year output. I'm iffy on the Golden age stuff, but from, say 1954 on, at least in DC and Marvel, I'm pretty good. :)

Like I said: I've got a weird memory for this sort of trivia.

Papermache Prince: You got it! (Really, really horrible story too. Batman learns he has a retarded or brain-damaged brother named Thomas. He eventually gives Thomas's body to Deadman so Deadman can live again. Obviously this could only be written by Bob "Continuity? What means this word?" Haney.

I'll leave the rest of the questions hanging for a while. If anyone feels like guessing, have fun and if anyone cares, I'll give cites later tonight.

Cal: I agree that the early Titano looked pretty dorky in his "ape" mold. But dammit, I'd gladly have him look that way again, if only they'd bring him back. But given the current state of the Superbooks, I'm kind of glad they're not. < sigh > I miss Superman (the current guy, regardless of the name, ain't Superman to me)

And I agree; Foglio's Angel and the Ape was a fantastic take on the characters. Much better than the recent Giffen version for Vertigo.

Fenris

[Fenris]

Originally posted by Mr. Blue Sky
Thanks for the input, guys and gals(?). To me, monkeys (and other primates) are things that SEEM like they would be funny, but IRL are not.
This is because you are (probably) not a 10 year old kid in the year 1955 who lived next door to Mort Weisinger.

Um. Or if you are, I've got a list of stuff I'd like you to buy for me:

AT&T stock, International Business Machine stock. invest in a little off-Broadway show that'll be opening in about 4 years called "The Fantasticks", oh and I'll give you a list of comics that I'd like you to buy multiple issues of for me: Action 252, Adventure 247. Amazing Fantasy 15, oh the list'll go on and on!

Fenris

[Bryan Ekers]

Incidentally, the post-Crisis Titano didn't have Kryptonite vision. He was just real big and real nasty. And then he died.


Speaking of parallel Earth-stuff, I was a regular collector of All-Star Squadron in the eighties, when DC dusted off their 1940s (Earth-2) stable and brought back characters like Liberty Belle and Johnny Quick, along with some altered versions of 1940s characters (the female Firebrand), some characters created much later but whose stories were originally set in the 40s (Commander Steel) and some completely new ones (Amazing-Man). In hindsight, what I find most remarkable was that it was the beginning of DC's "modern maturity". The characters said "damn" and "hell" a lot, had off-camera sexual interludes, and I'm pretty sure somebody said "bastard" at one point. Of course, they were allowed to be rough. There was a war on, after all. I have every issue up to the Crisis, at which point the series tanked. Pity, really.


Anyway, there weren't any gorillas in that series that I can think of, but don't overlook Braniac's pet space monkey, Koko, or the reprehensible Gleek from "Superfriends".

[Fenris]

Regarding the unfortunately acronymed A.S.S., sure they had a gorilla: Remeber the Ultra-Humanite's albino-big headed gorilla body?

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally posted by Fenris
Regarding the unfortunately acronymed A.S.S., sure they had a gorilla: Remeber the Ultra-Humanite's albino-big headed gorilla body?
That was more of a Justice Society thing. The A.S.S. Ultra-Humanite was a human woman, and quite a fox. Another sexual element that put this series ahead of the other DC titles of the day in maturity.

[Doubting Robert]

Originally posted by Bryan Ekers

That was more of a Justice Society thing. The A.S.S. Ultra-Humanite was a human woman, and quite a fox. Another sexual element that put this series ahead of the other DC titles of the day in maturity.

Well, now, what about the A. S. S. issues that previewed the Infinity, Inc. characters? Wasn't the ape-Ultra in some of them? I do remember that the actress-Ultra was in them. Time travel was involved, and I think both of those versions of the Ultra-Humanite were in the story. (There were other versions - a dinosaur and a wasp, for instance, that were not in that story.) I could be confused, however. I know that the ape-Ultra appeared in some issues of Infinity, Inc., as did older versions of many of the A. S. S. characters.

Speaking of maturity, there was an issue of Infinity, Inc. which included a more or less nude Earth-2 Wonder Woman.

[Hometownboy]

Originally posted by cmkeller
HoometownBoy:



And what's wrong with talking about Space Cabby (http://www.geocities.com/tourist5010/cmkeller/scabby/)? :)

(Just to make the point, since it's not very clear from the incomplete web page - I created that page.)



As Boris Badenov used to say, "Hoooo boy," meaning "I've put my foot in it again. Humble apologies,cmkeller . I was not intending to dis Space Cabby (except by spelling iit wrong ::smacks self in forehead, Homer style::). I was using him as an example of a character who would be known by someone DEEP into the DC franchise. And by Fenris' later remarks, I wasn't even close to the depths of obscurity he's plumbed. Maybe if I'd tried an off-brand character like The Fly or Captain Atom.....

[Fenris]

And just FYI, the obscure characters listed were:

Dr Strange (Iron Man bad-guy): He was a bad-guy in Tales of Suspense..um...40? A Russkie, IIRC. And his daughter was a babe.

Black Zero: Space alien who destroyed Krypton, pre-Crisis. One of those very, VERY bad stories that you can't QUITE pretend is an Earth-B story or an imaginary tale. Everyone ignored it.


The Scarlet Beetle: Fought Ant Man and the Wasp

The Living Eraser, Also fought Ant Man and the Wasp

Thomas Wayne: See upthread a ways.


Maaaad Dr. Doom (no relation) and Chester: Maaaad Dr. Doom was a green-skinned fiend...Imagine Simon from the Underdog cartoons, and make him taller and green. Chester was his flunkey: sort of a greasy beatnik type. Oh yeah: and they fought L'il Archie, back when the book was good.

Baron Von Grabbe: Fought Sugar & Spike and Bernie the Brain.

the almost Earth-3 Legion (correcting a typo): In one issue of Superboy (#117?), Superboy meets a bunch of Legionaires who were super-delinquents! Turns out when he flew through the time barrier he also crossed over into another dimension: there were a couple of reasons it couldn't be Earth-3 (the most obvious: The Legion of Super Delinquents recognized Superboy: and there was no Superboy on Earth 3), but it was pretty damn close

Fenris

(I promise to stop now)