Why would gays want to "propagate their lifestyle"?

[pizzabrat]

Many consevatives accuse gays of trying to "propagate thier lifestyle". What on Earth motivation do they think gays have in doing this? It's not like its a religion that encourages its followers to proselytize or a economic system that's incompatible with our current one. Why would making more of our future generation gay be of much interest to homosexuals?

[jayjay]

Because many, many, many neo-conservatives still hold the highly erroneous belief that homosexuality is a choice, and that one must be "recruited" into that "lifestyle". What lifestyle they're talking about, I don't know, as this homosexual's lifestyle is pretty much boring. Sleep (alone), work (with 99% already married men), occasionally go to the local gay bar to have iced tea (real iced tea, not the Long Island variety) and watch ER, and sometimes, very rarely, have sex with another man. Does not happen often.

You have to wonder, though, how homosexuality can be so much amazingly better than heterosexuality that the mere mention of anything to do with it will instantly lead the average person astray, and yet have all those homosexuals be so terribly miserable as the neo-conservatives like to paint them...

jayjay

[Guinastasia]

Insecurity, a defense tactic, I suppose. They feel threatened by anyone different from them, so they say these people are trying to force their beliefs or ways or whatever you call it on others.

It can be accused against anyone, really. Very sad.

[SFCanadian]

OK, I'll admit it... I'm guilty... Propagator here....

I just figured if I changed enough of you the Networks would finally cancel "Love Connection" and "Temptation Island"...

I haven't gotten very far yet, but I'm willing to keep trying... Propagation is a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it!

;)

SFCanadian

[BlackKnight]

So they can get dates (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105149), duh. ;)

[Captain Amazing]

Originally posted by jayjay
Because many, many, many neo-conservatives still hold the highly erroneous belief that homosexuality is a choice, and that one must be "recruited" into that "lifestyle".

Not to nitpick, but I don't really know if that's really a neo-conservative view. I'm sure some neo-conservatives believe that, but neo-conservative thought doesn't really talk about it much. That seems to be more of a religious right idea.

[rjung]

Originally posted by pizzabrat
Many consevatives accuse gays of trying to "propagate thier lifestyle". What on Earth motivation do they think gays have in doing this?
Why, to annoy conservatives, of course! :D

[jayjay]

Originally posted by Captain Amazing


Not to nitpick, but I don't really know if that's really a neo-conservative view. I'm sure some neo-conservatives believe that, but neo-conservative thought doesn't really talk about it much. That seems to be more of a religious right idea.

I'm not sure if your definition and my definition of "neo-conservative" mesh...I use "neo-conservative" to denote the breed of busybody Mrs. Grundys that have sprung up since the late 70s, conservatives who, rather than conserving the spirit of the Constitution, prefer to try to keep everybody from doing anything that might be in the least pleasurable. Meaning that my version of "neo-conservative" pretty much correlates with the term "religious right".

*shrug* Tomato, tomahto... ;)

jayjay

[auntie em]

Originally posted by pizzabrat
Why would making more of our future generation gay be of much interest to homosexuals?

Because, see, they KNOW they're going to hell, and they want to make sure they're going to have company there besides Saddam Hussein. Preferably the company of millions of fellow hot, sweaty homosexuals.

[Journeyman]

I think the idea that homosexuals are trying to spread their lifestyle comes from the "beseiged" mentality that I see a lot of in the religious right.

[fundie mode on]
The idea is that we have the Truth(tm) but we are a small group of people, surrounded by iniquity, sin, and heresy, collectively, the Forces of Darkness(tm). We are the only ones who know how life should be lived.

Since we know this, the world should change, but only the way we want it to. Any other changes are an example of the spreading influence of the Forces of Darkness, and must be despised.
[fundie mode off]

The end result is an organization which looks down on increased tolerance (since there's only one right way to live), opposes social change (unless it's legislation of their own creed), and grounds all it's arguments in mystic or spiritual thought (only one source, though, since there's only one truth)- in other words, the current religious right.

[Yumanite]

Eh, I thought it had something to do with winning a toaster.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally posted by jayjay


I'm not sure if your definition and my definition of "neo-conservative" mesh...I use "neo-conservative" to denote the breed of busybody Mrs. Grundys that have sprung up since the late 70s, conservatives who, rather than conserving the spirit of the Constitution, prefer to try to keep everybody from doing anything that might be in the least pleasurable.

Oops. :) That's what a political science degree does...:) In modern US political philosophy, there's a movement called the neo-conservative movement. Neo-conservatives (some prominent neo-cons have been Irving Kristol, David Horowitz, Pat Moynahan, Samuel Huntington, and Andrew Sullivan) tend to be former leftists who were strong anti-Communists and tend to advocate market solutions to social problems. They tend to be contrarian, and support small government, balanced budgets and an activist foreign policy.

[jayjay]

Originally posted by Captain Amazing


Oops. :) That's what a political science degree does...:) In modern US political philosophy, there's a movement called the neo-conservative movement. Neo-conservatives (some prominent neo-cons have been Irving Kristol, David Horowitz, Pat Moynahan, Samuel Huntington, and Andrew Sullivan) tend to be former leftists who were strong anti-Communists and tend to advocate market solutions to social problems. They tend to be contrarian, and support small government, balanced budgets and an activist foreign policy.

I actually used it in the intention of not tarring actual old-school Constitutional conservatives with the "right-wing loonie" brush.

Maybe I should just call them right-wing loonies and skip the confusion. :)

jayjay

[untateve]

Why would gays want to "propagate their lifestyle"?


It was a slow Monday.

[Kirkland1244]

If I could recruit people into being gay, I'd dedicate my life to pulling Baptist preachers' kids into the "lifestyle." That would ruin their fathers' day... :)

Kirk

[chula]

They are recruiting! I read in here (http://www.theonion.com/onion3326/homosexualrecruit.html).

[Revtim]

I'm not saying they ARE recruiting (and I'm not even sure how that might be done), but I could see that it would help homosexuality be more accepted if more people were gay. If it were possible, that would be pretty damn good reason to propagate a lifestyle.

How you can get someone to be sexually attracted to the sex opposite of the one that they are already attracted to, I have no idea.

[Rysdad]

They've got "breeder envy?" :)

Eh, I thought it had something to do with winning a toaster.

Toaster oven, if I'm not mistaken.

[Kirkland1244]

You cannot "convert" anyone to homosexuality. That's just a lie spread by fundamentalist trash.

[matt_mcl]

I don't think it's possible to convert a straight man to homosexuality, but give me an evening and a two-four of Sleeman's and I'll do my best.

[jayjay]

Originally posted by matt_mcl
I don't think it's possible to convert a straight man to homosexuality, but give me an evening and a two-four of Sleeman's and I'll do my best.

My hat's off to matt. The very thought of such a sacrifice for the twin causes of scientific research and the Gay Agenda moves me to tears! *sob*

Now, give me the chance to attempt conversion on Sean Astin and I'll...*sniff*...try to do my duty to my fellow gay men. :D

jayjay

[Kirkland1244]

Well, if you need someone to get Elijah Wood away from Astin for ya, I'm you're man.

Though personally, I don't think Elijah needs any converting.

Kirk

[Guston]

The hardcore right wing wants all "faggots" to die. That's why Jesse (going to hell) Helms now supports aid to African mothers and their children. They got the disease RIGHTEOUSLY , from a man, whilst engaged in good ol' heterosexual sex.
Syphsenator Jesse (going to hell) Helms will not support any programs that will help "faggots" suffering from AIDS. He would prefer that all homosexual AIDS sufferers suffer in silence and die. The sooner the better.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is compassionate conservatism.

[Kirkland1244]

Guston, do not lob all conservatives in with Helms.

[Czarcasm]

It's just not fair!
Gays get a toaster oven for converting, while us bi-sexuals only get a spatula and a pot holder. We have to convert five people to upgrade to an insulated coffee mug.

[Esprix]

Originally posted by BlackKnight

So they can get dates (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105149), duh. ;)

You leave me and my sweet, supple gel wrist rest alone! Why can't you just leave us alone? :(

Esprix



Scylla

[Annie-Xmas]

According to her expertise, homosexuals have to convert cause they can't reproduce. I swear to God, Anita wrote it. I don't understand it either, particularly since my lesbian sister has two children.

[gobear]

Now, give me the chance to attempt conversion on Sean Astin and I'll...*sniff*...try to do my duty to my fellow gay men.

Get in line, Buster! :D I'd do me a hobbit four-way, with some Aragorn and Faramir on the side. Gimli's a tad too bearish for me, and Legolas is waaay too much of a twink.

The fundie claim that "the gays are converting the straights" is really rather a sweet compliment. They seem to believe that homosexuality must be so alluring, so deliciously tantalizing, that no straight man can resist our wiles.

I can see why the fundies would feel threatened, too. Once converted, the formerly-straight guy abandons polyester blends for natural fibers, K-Mart for Ikea, and trades in Hootie for Madonna. Good taste and sophistication to a fundie are like garlic to a vampire.

[Homebrew]

Originally posted by Esprix


Esprix



Scylla [/B]

Sorry for the hijack, but Esprix, could you direct me to the thread in which you decided to start whispering "Scylla" at the end of your posts? I've noticed you've done that several times. Why?

[Polycarp]

If you want to be totally fair to the religious right (and while many of you may feel that that's unnecessary since they are not totally fair to anyone else, one can rise above a tit-for-tat morality), the stance would seem to be that (a) the God of the Bible makes no bones about his condemnation of homosexual acts, (b) anyone of homosexual orientation is going to desire homosexual acts, which by the "if you fantasize doing it, you're as guilty as if you actually did it" concept (which speaks of adultery), (c) gay activists are trying to remove any concept of things being morally right or not as regards God's commands, and (d) it's incumbent on all moral people to attempt to keep other people from committing immoral acts, and to foster a moral society.

I'm sure that most people here can see the flaws in this rationale, but it does seem only fair to present it as something that, given certain assumptions, has some internal consistency, not just the spewing of hatred.

What gripes me more than anything else is that when you discuss the subject with people who in other ways seem compassionate and sincerely trying to live out Jesus's commands, it suddenly becomes "we cannot condone sin" along with "honest love for them demands we show them where they're sinning." Never mind that, even on their line of thinking, this is one sin among many for which Jesus paid the debt, and His commands include that one show love, not revulsion, for one's fellow man, and that one do whatever is possible to lead one's fellow men to Christ -- and that nothing could be more obvious than that this stance is driving gay people away from Him.

However, nobody said that logic had anything to do with it. Apparently even for good Christians it's too much to expect that they try to do what they were commanded to by their Lord. :(

Kirk, 'Sprix, does this meet with your understanding of what seems to be going on?

[pizzabrat]

According to her expertise, homosexuals have to convert cause they can't reproduce. I swear to God, Anita wrote it. I don't understand it either, particularly since my lesbian sister has two children.

I remember her saying that too, but that never made sense. How could making someone who already exists more like you seem like a substitute for reproducing?

[Esprix]

Originally posted by Homebrew

[quote]Sorry for the hijack, but Esprix, could you direct me to the thread in which you decided to start whispering "Scylla" at the end of your posts? I've noticed you've done that several times. Why?

Moneypenny: "Don't ask."

M: "Don't tell."

- "Tomorrow Never Dies"

;)

Esprix

[jayjay]

Originally posted by gobear

Get in line, Buster! :D I'd do me a hobbit four-way, with some Aragorn and Faramir on the side.

Jayjay will kill 'em if they try anything... :D

jayjay (Super Secret LOTR Diaries (http://www.livejournal.com/users/cassieclaire/))

[mswas]

Originally posted by Kirkland1244
Well, if you need someone to get Elijah Wood away from Astin for ya, I'm you're man.

Though personally, I don't think Elijah needs any converting.

Kirk

When I saw Astin and Wood at the Oscar's last week my Gaydar went wild and was triangulating their position with pinpoint accuracy.

Erek

[jayjay]

Originally posted by mswas


When I saw Astin and Wood at the Oscar's last week my Gaydar went wild and was triangulating their position with pinpoint accuracy.

Erek

Heh...tell me about it. Not to hijack any further than we already have, but I did think it was amusing that they went to great, GREAT pains to firmly establish Sam's heterosexuality at the beginning of the movie and then completely obliterated that establishment by Astin's performance and Jackson's direction.

If Samwise didn't have a little hobbit hard-on for Master Frodo, I'll marry the next woman who passes by and father 10 children.

jayjay

[Kirkland1244]

Oh, Elijah Wood strikes me as incredibly gay.

Sean Astin being gay, however, would come as a sad shock to his wife and kids, so I hope he's not.

Kirk

[emarkp]

Wow! 30+ posts and only one half-attempt to answer the question instead of merely slinging polemic at those of differing opinion. I'm so impressed with Dopers!

Not. :rolleyes:

[jayjay]

Originally posted by Kirkland1244
Oh, Elijah Wood strikes me as incredibly gay.

Sean Astin being gay, however, would come as a sad shock to his wife and kids, so I hope he's not.

Kirk

Damn inconvenient heterosexual appurtenances...

'sokay, anyway. Astin is cute in real life, but not as cute as he is when he's really short with hairy feet. :D

jayjay (pervy hobbit-fancier)

[jayjay]

Originally posted by emarkp
Wow! 30+ posts and only one half-attempt to answer the question instead of merely slinging polemic at those of differing opinion. I'm so impressed with Dopers!

Not. :rolleyes:

Those of differing opinion on this subject ignore the data as well as the testimony of gays. Evidence is very much on our side. The other side, on the other hand, has their worldview warped by the idea that sexual orientation is some sort of willy-nilly whimsical choice that we gays make every morning. "Shall I be gay or straight today? Oh, I had so much wicked fun fucking men yesterday I think I'll stay gay!" is as much behind their fear of "recruitment" as it is of their sick fantasy of "recovery ministries".

We're treating their opinion with all the gravity it deserves.

jayjay

[Kirkland1244]

jayjay, Frodo will kill you if you try anything.

[JRDelirious]

gobear, um, Ikea represents good taste and sophistication? :)

The major explanations of how come the RR is so hung up on the 'spread' of gays have been covered. I also suspect that when you come from a background where what you ARE supposed to do IS proselytize your way of life, you would come to expect everyone else to be up to the same. This parallels the way the RR seems to feel that any description of something in fiction or nonfiction HAS to be in advocacy for or against (e.g. "Harry Potter books preach paganism") .

[ignatzmouse]

I can actually see how members of the religious right might think that gays and lesbians are attempting to "convert" people. Among the major reasons to encouraging people to become more comfortable with homosexuality is to help gays, especially gay teens, have an easier time figuring out their sexuality. Some of these teens, of course, will be gay. If you believe that homosexuality is a choice and a sin, this would naturally be perceived as "conversion," especially as JRDelerious says, within an organization dedicated to conversion.

[mswas]

Originally posted by gobear
[BI can see why the fundies would feel threatened, too. Once converted, the formerly-straight guy abandons polyester blends for natural fibers, K-Mart for Ikea, and trades in Hootie for Madonna. Good taste and sophistication to a fundie are like garlic to a vampire. [/B]

I'll give you Natural Fibers, but neither Ikea nor Madonna are good taste OR sophistication.

Well Madonna might be good taste, but DEFINITELY not sophistication.

Erek

[mswas]

Originally posted by jayjay


Heh...tell me about it. Not to hijack any further than we already have, but I did think it was amusing that they went to great, GREAT pains to firmly establish Sam's heterosexuality at the beginning of the movie and then completely obliterated that establishment by Astin's performance and Jackson's direction.

If Samwise didn't have a little hobbit hard-on for Master Frodo, I'll marry the next woman who passes by and father 10 children.

jayjay

Exactly as it was in the books. Ask Maeglin to explain to you medieval master servant relationships to you sometimes. He explained it to me, but I still think there's something there.

Erek

[king of spain]

Okay, trying to look at this from the psycho-fundie point of view (eww, my brain feels dirty)...

Most of these people think that homosexuality means (1) being attracted to ANYTHING with a penis/vagina and (2) not caring about anything except having as much filthy, mindless sex as possible. Therefore, it's clear that they want to convert every straight person in order to be able to sleep with them. Duh.

(What confuses me is exactly how they think it's possible to 'recruit' a thoroughly 100% straight person into homosexuality, but that's another story.)

[meyer]

Having been accused of falling for the "Gay Agenda" and of allowing myself to be "recruited", I have two things to say:

1) I have no idea why people say that, seeing as I'm both a heterosexual and an athiest. I guess it's just because I grew up in sort of a Bible-thumping town.

2) I have always assumed that your basic nutty fundy type sees just accepting other peoples gay lifestyle and actually leading a gay lifestyle as being pretty much the same thing. I mean, either way you are going to hell in their books, so they lump all the homosexuals and the people who are just down with homosexuality together. Under this assumtion, I gather that "recruiting" is not necessarily about turning heterosexual people into homosexual people, its about turning otherwise god-fearing, gay-hating youngsters into adults who are tolerant of those around them.

If this is their idea of recruitment, then I can see why they are afraid of it - tolerance is obviously the enemy of the nutty fundy bunch, and in my experience exposure to diversity (in terms of sexuality, race, religion, or whatever), especially during the impressionable teenage years, has a way of breaking down a narrow world view, thus making the youth see the fundies for the wackos they truly are.

[gobear]

I'll give you Natural Fibers, but neither Ikea nor Madonna are good taste OR sophistication.

Well, I could have substituted Bombay for Ikea, but I can't afford their prices. Love their furniture. though. I'll trade you Madonna for Verdi. Fundies don't like opera, either, I'll wager.

Emarkp, people aren't treating the other side with respect because they deserve none. Gays don't recruit, we don't "decide," we don't suddenly become gay. Sexual orientation is innate, unchosen. The urgings of the heart are not subject to the will. The fundie position is based on blind hatred and prejudice, and the proper response to bigotry is derisive laughter and contempt.

[Newton meter]

Originally posted by jayjay
The other side, on the other hand, has their worldview warped by the idea that sexual orientation is some sort of willy-nilly whimsical choice that we gays make every morning. "Shall I be gay or straight today? Oh, I had so much wicked fun fucking men yesterday I think I'll stay gay!" is as much behind their fear of "recruitment" as it is of their sick fantasy of "recovery ministries".

I don't think this point has gotten the credit it deserved, jayjay, because you made it sound like a joke. Based on evidence of the homophobes I've had the displeasure to have known, I think many of them have a quite tenuous grasp on their own heterosexuality. They're often "tempted" by others of the same gender, leading them to believe that they (and others) do make a conscious decision every morning to remain heterosexual.

And, as others have suggested, I don't think it's a far way to go from seeing the world as entirely black and white, to us vs. them, to winning and losing. You gotta fight the gays, 'cause they must be fighting you.

kg m²/s²

[Dr. Lao]

I was going to respond without reading, but I decided against it and found that most of what I was going to say has already been said, mostly by JRDelirious. Since the religious right knows that they themselves are trying to spread their lifestyle, they can only assume everyone else is trying to as well. And, as Journeyman said, this all fits in well with their view of the world as a horrible, horrible place (excepting themselves, of course). The RR's cynicism about the world is overwhelming at times, it is a wonder how they can claim to have the same philosophy of Mr. turn-the-other-cheek Himself.