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ShibbOleth
04-04-2002, 08:18 AM
First off, this may have been Bartlet's best line ever:

"Suckers!"

Second, I really enjoyed this episode. Man, I'd vote for Hoynes in a New York minute.

Don't want to say too much else upfront. What did you all think?

Dinsdale
04-04-2002, 08:22 AM
Enjoyed it, but felt that as entertaining as Bartlett was, he was about as un-presidential as could be.
I missed the 1st season. Why are so many folk whipped on Hoynes?
Man, Toby played the hard-ass well. Has his secretary always been that incompetent?
Hated that they had Rob Lowe playing stupid again.

Trion
04-04-2002, 08:39 AM
A pretty good episode. I am so bummed that I missed the first two seasons of this show.

I liked Charlie's tax subplot and I can easily believe that Bartlett enjoys doing people's taxes. And I like Hoynes even though I find him a bit dull.

Everybody seemed to be acting so nice this episode.

blanx
04-04-2002, 08:44 AM
So as not to honk people off about spoilers, can someone possibly email me as to what happened after the meeting vetted the idea of Leo being the VP?

I was intently watching the episode, and then was sucked into the vortex of my dysfunctional family, and couldn't hear what happened after that.

email is blanx1018[nospam]@hotmail.com

ShibbOleth
04-04-2002, 09:23 AM
I think that Sorkin is trying to illustrate through Toby's frustration with his secretary the lack of respect he feels he gets. Toby can be a badass if he needs to but doesn't really like to do it.

Blanx, do you need a summary of everything that happened after that?

Oblong
04-04-2002, 09:49 AM
a follow up on your point about Toby, I found it interesting when CJ asked who would bring the states that Hoynes wouldn't and TOby jumped in with something like "We are already talking about replacements" and she finished "Then why replace him?"

So was Rob Lowe sent off to test Hoynes, keep him out of the meeting, or just to do what he went to do?

Who's on top next week for the silly thing? Last week Josh had his lemonlyman. Toby is too serious.

Donna is looking very good. Her outfit last night really highlighted certain body parts.

plnnr
04-04-2002, 09:58 AM
Whew! I was hoping it wasn't just me who noticed that Donna's breasts were so ...right out there. Those, my friends, are very nice breasts. I'd like to meet them someday.

I thought that the note Bartlett gave Leo and Hoynes was going to be along the lines that he (Bartlett), too, is an alcoholic.

blanx
04-04-2002, 10:00 AM
Shibb, actually, a brief summary of everything that happened after that would make me a happy man!

Thanks-

blanx

Milossarian
04-04-2002, 10:00 AM
It's a tribute to Aaron Sorkin that Tim Matheson's character isn't superficial - a slick, calculating political opportunist who has never been fully on-board with Bartlett. The Lyndon Johnson to Bartlett's Kennedy, on the ticket only for Texas.

That's the way I thought Hoynes was going in the first season. But to Sorkin's credit, he's made him much more complex than that. Hoynes is not a bad guy. The whole thing with him agreeing to take his name off the Internet Education Bill - that was great.

And it's not like it's going to be all bunnies and flowers between him and Bartlett now. At least I hope not. Keep their relationship complex, complicated, hard to define! That's great TV.

It's one of the same things I love about the other best show on television, "The Sopranos." Is Tony Soprano a good guy or a bad guy? Depends on what minute you're looking in on his life.

Munch
04-04-2002, 10:01 AM
Shibb, I usually call my mother each week to talk about the episode, and even she commented on Donna looking even better this week.

I dunno. I don't like how they've taken Hoynes and in one episode declawed him. He used to be such a great character, or at least the friction between him and Bartlett was great. Now that that's gone, there's really nothing. The least they could do is bring some ND v. USC rivalry in there (I believe we saw Hoynes holding up a USC jersey in Season 1).

I, too, think that Sam was sent to talk to Hoynes to get him out of the way for the meeting. But what I want to know is how Hoynes knew that that's what they were talking about. That seemed a bit outlandish. But then, Hoynes has always been fairly intuitive on the show.

Does anyone know what Sam's sumo comment was at the end with everyone outside the Oval Office? It seemed like some sort of analogy, but I couldn't see the connection to the VP situation.

Anybody else incredibly impressed with Charlie's level of giving? 3 major gifts to 3 different organizations in a year. Wow.

Most impressive to me, though, was the level of connection the President feels he has with Charlie. When Donna was in the Oval Office, and Bartlett had the teacher waiting on the line, he assumed that Charlie would pick up on a subtle clue. I really think that shows that Bartlett really cares deeply about the people around him (if that wasn't obvious from calling Donna's teacher in the first place).

bobkitty
04-04-2002, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Munch
Does anyone know what Sam's sumo comment was at the end with everyone outside the Oval Office? It seemed like some sort of analogy, but I couldn't see the connection to the VP situation.


At the beginning of the episode, Sam was commenting on how if he owned a hockey team, he'd hire a sumo wrestler to sit in the net and eat hamburgers all season.. nothing would get past him.

ShibbOleth
04-04-2002, 10:39 AM
To read the below, highlight and copy


Stirred: Starts off with McGarrity and Hoynes at a covert AA meeting. Another AA member questions how secure their meetings will be with Leo being "outed" as an alcoholic.

Sam is tasked by Josh to let Hoynes know that a pet bill of his, to fund computers for the rural poor, has been cut in committee. Donna asks Josh to get a presidential proclamation issued for her favorite highschool teacher who is retiring after 41 years of service.

Bartlet helps Charlie with his taxes. Charlie questions POTUS as to whether it's right for him to spend his time doing his taxes. What would the plurality of Bartlet voters think? Bartlet replies "Suckers!" (for voting for him). Jed and Charlie both expect Charlie's return to be $700, but it turns out he owes $400. Jed teases Charlie, "pay up", but Charlie is shocked. Turns out that last years rebate was actually an advance on his tax bill, a not so subtle jab at the Bush admin's 2001 tax rebate.
Charlie had already spent his refund by ordering a DVD player and "In Her Majesty's Secret Service", an early James Bond film (with Connery). POTUS infers that Bond was a pompus wimp, ordering his martinis "shaken not stirred" which in effect waters down the martini. (Hence the episode title, together with the AA theme and Hoynes who's world is a bit stirred by the end of the episode).

Then the President is informed that there has been a collision in a tunnel near Elkhorn, Nevada involving a truck carrying nuclear waste...

Toby notices something odd on a meeting calendar and requests his secretary should get the Secretary of Housing in immediately. She seems only distracted by this request until he reiterates that she should do this pronto.

Josh leads a meeting, spurred by Bruno, on whether they should replace Hoynes as the VP on the ticket. Governor Ritchie has strong support in Texas and is a Florida native, so they expect to lose both states. This means that they will need to carry California and other key states (most of the Northeast, for exampe) or lose the election. In their opinion Texas is a lost cause but other candidates will help them out more in other states. (I assume that as a conservative Dem, Hoynes' power base is the South, Midwest and some help in California) Fitzwilliams(?), the military guy played by John Amos, is floated as a candidate who will draw the black vote. Problem is no one even knows if he is a Democrat (a la Colin Powell). Leo is also suggested as a possible candidate. There is some discussion about what would happen if Hoynes gets the boot, eg, will he just walk away, or would he run as an independent.

Josh meets with Hoynes and they discuss why his part of the bill has been axed. Turns out it's politics with the Committee chair irked because Hoynes attacked him earlier, at the request of the White House. In the end Hoynes suggests they take his name of the bill if that will get his rider back on it.

Secretary of Housing is busy and has not come in. Toby tells his secretary how to trick him into coming in (tell him we want to announce this from the West Wing: more clout and press).

Leo is appraised that they are considering him as a possible Veep candidate. In the meeting they discuss Leo's alcohol and valium problems. Leo hints that he wouldn't be the first VP with an alcohol problem. Then he goes to Hoynes and tells him he needs to let Bartlet know about his past. Hoynes expresses surprise that Jed doesn't already know.

In the meantime there is some more discussion about whether Elkhorn would need to be evacuated. (FWIW tunnel fires, like the one in the Mount Blanc tunnel a few years ago, can be vary serious affairs. It's like burning something in an oven or a kiln.)

Hoynes and Leo meet with POTUS. Hoynes tells Bartlet that he is a recovering alcoholic and his family has a history of problems. He took his last drink when he was 22 years old. Bartlet asks what the meeting in the side office is about. Leo says maybe they can discuss it later. Hoynes says it's about replacing him (Hoynes) on the ticket. He says this very matter of factly, pragmatic about election and political realities. Bartlet tells him that he is not going to replace him on the ticket and writes down a four word reason of "why".

Elkhorn turns out okay.

Bartlet expresses his admiration for the amount of money which Charlie gives to charity on his relatively low salary ($35K). He then says that when he gets home he will find a DVD player, the James Bond DVD and a CD which Bartlet had recommended (which I am drawing a blank on right now).

Hoynes is in the meeting room discussing election strategy with Josh, Sam, Toby, Leo, CJ, etc. The reason Bartlet gives for keeping Hoynes is: "Because I could die". In other words, Hoynes is the right man to be President if anything should happen to Bartlet.

In the final scene, "Donnatella" is called into the Oval Office. Bartlet tells her that he understands how she feels but he cannot just issue a proclamation because of the politics involved. He does get Charlie to patch in a call which is to Donna's teacher. She talks to her, a bit at a loss for words for a while. Then Bartlet joins into the conversation and they discuss how she taught Beowulf (translated version versus Middle English, which Bartlet refers to as the James Bond version, eg, watered down), Twelfth Night, etc.

Roll closing credits.



I may have missed a thing or two there, sorry.

Oblong
04-04-2002, 10:46 AM
ahh... now I get it. Hoynes is the sumo wrestler.. nothing gets by him.

D'OH!

blanx
04-04-2002, 10:53 AM
Shibb, you, in fact, rock.

Thanks- now a few things which I watched on mute make a heck of a lot more sense.

Munch
04-04-2002, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by bobkitty


At the beginning of the episode, Sam was commenting on how if he owned a hockey team, he'd hire a sumo wrestler to sit in the net and eat hamburgers all season.. nothing would get past him.

Right, but how does that fit into the conversation they were having? They were discussing strategy for the party ticket.

ShibbOleth
04-04-2002, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Munch


Right, but how does that fit into the conversation they were having? They were discussing strategy for the party ticket.

I think that the point was to look at unconventional solutions to problems.

And how can anybody not love hockey, particularly in person?

Jane D'oh!
04-04-2002, 11:30 AM
It's not a refund, it's an advance!

Dr. Rieux
04-04-2002, 11:42 AM
That's On Her Majesty's Secret Service, and Connery wasn't in it. (Maybe that'a why Bartlett called it "wimp-ass?")
I heard a couple of mistakes near the end of this episode:
Bartlett asked the teacher if she had her students read Beowulf in the original Middle English.
They should both know that it's in Old English (Anglo-Saxon).
Before that, when talking about Pulaski, Bartlett said "calvary" instead of "cavalry."

whatami
04-04-2002, 11:44 AM
Does it seem strange to anyone that Charlie makes only $35,000?

I mean, My girlfriend is an administrative assistant for a district manager of a large grocery chain, she makes $32,000. She only works 40 hours a week, Charlie works about 80 (or so it seems).


Anyway, I liked the episode. I like Charlie more and more every week and I sure wish that Sam wouldn't be cut out like he is. Are they ready to get rid of him, or what? I wish something decisive would come down after this. Especially after The President's comment a few weeks ago about how he will be the Pres. someday.

Dr. Rieux
04-04-2002, 11:44 AM
ShibbOleth, that's On Her Majesty's Secret Service, and Connery wasn't in it. (Maybe that'a why Bartlett called it "wimp-ass?")
I heard a couple of mistakes near the end of this episode:
Bartlett asked the teacher if she had her students read Beowulf in the original Middle English.
They should both know that it's in Old English (Anglo-Saxon).
Before that, when talking about Pulaski, Bartlett said "calvary" instead of "cavalry."

Munch
04-04-2002, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by whatami
Does it seem strange to anyone that Charlie makes only $35,000?

I mean, My girlfriend is an administrative assistant for a district manager of a large grocery chain, she makes $32,000. She only works 40 hours a week, Charlie works about 80 (or so it seems).


Anyway, I liked the episode. I like Charlie more and more every week and I sure wish that Sam wouldn't be cut out like he is. Are they ready to get rid of him, or what? I wish something decisive would come down after this. Especially after The President's comment a few weeks ago about how he will be the Pres. someday.

Ah, but Charlie works for the government, and is probably in a salaried position. $35,000 in the White House sounds about right.

Lok
04-04-2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Dinsdale
Hated that they had Rob Lowe playing stupid again.

I don't remember Lowe playing stupid. He was working with Hoynes on the education bill, then he went into the meeting about dropping Hoynes from the ticket. And he lied about what went on with Hotnes, saying that the vice president came up with the idea about taking his name off of the bill with no prompting. Seems he really likes Hoynes for some reason.

a35362
04-04-2002, 01:49 PM
Idaho, not Nevada...right?

Who are Bruno and the other guy again? Hired guns for the election, pollsters or something?

Zebra
04-04-2002, 01:55 PM
Is it just me of did Toby really overstep his authority to threaten a cabinet sec. job?


Maybe he and the president have discussed this particular guy before off screen but I thought Toby was kind of a one note jerk on this episode. LIke at the beginning why did his assistant just point to the clip board with the information he demanded?

ShibbOleth
04-04-2002, 02:23 PM
Yes, it was On Her Majesty's Secret Service, it just sounds wrong to me so I subconsciously transcribed it. And that was the George Lazenby Bond. Telly Savalas played Blofeld(sp?) as well.

The same with Elkhorn, Idaho, which I think may be a fictional town.

Also, I just realised I spelled Leo's last name as McGarrity but on the show it is McGarry. I think McGarrity was the last name of the house mother on "Facts of Life".

Bruno is the highly paid political consultant played by Ron Silver. He was brought in to get the President into the election after MS-Gate. The other guy they referred to was Doug, IIRC.

And I don't know if Toby overstepped his bounds. I think that is part of his job; nice as Bartlet is this is still politics.

friedo
04-04-2002, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by a35362
Idaho, not Nevada...right?

Who are Bruno and the other guy again? Hired guns for the election, pollsters or something?

Bruno is the badass campaign strategist who has never voted for anyone.

jsc1953
04-04-2002, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by ShibbOleth

Bartlet expresses his admiration for the amount of money which Charlie gives to charity on his relatively low salary ($35K). He then says that when he gets home he will find a DVD player, the James Bond DVD and a CD which Bartlet had recommended (which I am drawing a blank on right now).



It was "Yeomen of the Guard", a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta. When Charlie first said he would spend his refund on a DVD, that was Bartlet's first guess as to the title.

king of spain
04-04-2002, 06:21 PM
Man, Aaron Sorkin must love me this week. A decent plotline for Charlie (couple episodes this season he's had literally about three lines), Bartlet and Donna got a scene together, and the Prez has apparently stopped acting like a jerk like he has for so much of this season.

Hoynes is such a great, complex character. I didn't feel this week diluted him at all. Sometimes you love him and sometimes you hate him. Hopefully he and Bartlet haven't become best pals forever now; I still want to seem them hit some rough patches, but moments of mutual admiration like this are nice too.

I was surprised to see them apparently explicitly bringing back the "Sam feeling out of the loop" storyline again. I thought that had been resolved.

Shibb and Oblong, nice catch on the sumo metaphor. I didn't get that at first either. (Was anyone else reminded of the hockey discussion we had here a little while back, where somebody suggested getting a team of skeet shooters to take care of stray pucks?)

And was I the only one who expected the four words to be "Let Bartlet be Bartlet?"

bristlesage
04-04-2002, 07:43 PM
It was Elkhorn, Idaho. It is a hotel up in the Sun Valley ski resort area. But getting it confused with Nevada is certainly understandable. In fact, when I first saw the episode preview, I thought, "Ah! The Nevada episode!" Also note that the high-level nuclear waste that might go to Yucca Mountain will be passing a town named "Elko", which is a kind of neat semi-coincidence.

Anyway, the episode was a good one. I like the episodes where they show the camaraderie between the staff; they're a nice break from the "Everyone-go-their-separate-ways-and-let's-get-some-work-done" episodes. And I am in agreement that the "Suckers!" line was great.