Osama bin Laden vs. hog producers. Who's more dangerous??

[zev_steinhardt]

Well, if you are Robert F. Kennedy (son of the late Attorney General) , the hog producers are a greater threat to America (http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789013/17862380.html) and democracy than Osama Bin Laden.

Did I miss something?

Did hog producers bomb the U.S.S. Cole?

Was it a plane full of pigs that plowed into the north tower of the World Trade Center?

Was it a faction of those radical pig farmers who bombed the U.S. embassies in Africa?

Now, granted, I don't have much use for pork products. But, come on! This is soooooooooooooooooooooo far over the top that I couldn't believe about it when I read it.

(What's even more amazing is that he said this in Iowa, which is, IIRC, the largest hog-producing state in the country.)

Zev Steinhardt

[Toaster52]

Geez.....I better call my brother. He's a manager of a hog farm just outside Ida Grove. If the government is about to arrest all those nasty hard-working hog-farmers, I'd better give him a heads up.



That is, if I can get hold of him.....he works about 80 hours a week.....


And people wonder why I hate the Kennedy's. He's so full of shit his eyes are turning brown.

[Michael Ellis]

You know, in a certain sense he's right --

Aw hell, no he isn't.

The moron.

[Eve]

"Was it a plane full of pigs that plowed into the north tower of the World Trade Center?"

—I know it's not funny, but I can't help thinking of "Pigs In Spaaaace: The Final Chapter!"

Sorry. Go on. Yes indeedy, Master Kennedy is a jackanapes of amazing proportion.

[wring]

well, zev one thing you did miss was that tho' the article made quite a few 'direct quotes' the one that offended you was the lead in paraphrasing. The direct quote I saw was an 'enemy within', which is, to a degree hyperbole, but I"m not seeing a direct quote from him saying 'hog farmers are worse than Osama'.

If he did say it, shame on him.

if, however, he said something along the lines of 'while attention is focused on the threats of terrorists, we forget the enemy within', that's quite different.

[Sofa King]

If we could ask the pigs, you know they'd be all about Osama. He's not eating them.

Terrorist pigs. I'm gonna cook up some bacon tonight.

[Zoff]

Originally posted by wring
I"m not seeing a direct quote from him saying 'hog farmers are worse than Osama'.

The story is a little confusing, but it reads like he made the comments at the speech Friday at Clear Lake. It doesn't sound like the reporter was at the meeting so they interviewed people who were at the speech:

"He put Grant Wood and Osama bin Laden side-by-side and said they were the same," said Christensen, who also heard Kennedy's Friday speech.

My personal favorite quote is "You have to be a complete wandering idiot to make that statement." Not an idiot, mind you, but a wandering idiot. Beautiful.

But now I'm confused. RFK, Jr. says pork producers are worse than Osama, but Rep. Barr said the campaign finance bill as bad as the Sept. 11 attacks. Who do I trust on this important matter?

[zev_steinhardt]

I originally read the story in the New York Post (http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/45814.htm) at lunch today. Walter Olson's story in the post puts it as a direct quote. It could certainly be wrong.

Zev Steinhardt

[MEBuckner]

Well, you gotta admit, he's a great coalition-builder. I mean, he's managed to unite the Orthodox Jews and the hog farmers.

[Miller]

Well, it's pretty long odds that Osama bin Laden or one of his minions will actually kill me. On the other hand, considering the amount of bacon and pork chops I've consumed over my life time, my arteries have the internal circumference of elbow macaroni. So I'm going with the hog farmers.

[Sweet Willy]

." Among the provisions is one that would give local governments and residents say in where livestock confinements are located.

Kennedy, who has gained notoriety for efforts to clean up the nation's waterways, said Tuesday that corporations such as ConAgra Foods, Smithfield Foods and Premium Standard Farms are the "enemy within.""

I know the Osama comparison sounds a bit overboard but do any of you live in hog country? I do. NC has been fighting the likes of Cargil and Smithfield packers for years. Hog farming has become a major, major problem in our waterways and has produced terrible consequences for alot of people. The hog farms of today are huge. Huge farms means huge waste lagoons. Many of these lagoons are spilling into our waterways everytime it rains for a couple days. The once livelyhood of "down east" NC is now a memory for most. The Pamilco, the Neuse, the Cape Fear and Albermarle fisheries are in near ruins. Summer storm season annually accounts for the overflow of waste lagoons into the rivers and worse yet, thousands of dead hogs rotting in the fishery, all due to hog farms in the flood plain. I know hog farmers. I know commercial fishermen. The difference is corporate greed. The big hog operations like Cargil have plenty of money to lobby with. The fishermen pray for a good soft crab season 'cause that's about all that is left.

[Sublight]

The Post article says the Des Moines Register quoted Kennedy as saying "large-scale hog producers are a greater threat to the United States and U.S. democracy than Osama bin Laden and his terrorist network." but the Register doesn't actually print that as a direct quote.

It might be possible, but I'd like to see another source. Also, I'm a bit skeptical of any newspaper that uses pop-up ad scams for revenue.

[Sublight]

The Des Moines Register also has two more articles about the event

April 11 (http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c5917686/17871178.html)
April 14 (http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c5917686/17876456.html)

But neither of them give an actual quote beyond the phrase "enemy within."

[Coldfire]

The Harley Davidson factory is a threat to the US?? :)

[light strand]

There is a letter to the editor, "Kennedy made perfect sense," which puts the speech into context ( http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c5917686/17928294.html ) and was written by someone who was actually there.

He wasn't saying hog farmers are like Osama bin Laden or somehow equating them with terrorists.

I think that the New York Post has some splainin' to do!

[lieu]

The large hog operations are despoiling a fair bit of the Colorado plains as well. They're certainly not welcome there by the locals that have ranched the country for years but there they are with considerable financial clout, polluting the waterways and stinking up the countryside for miles around. I've got nothing against pork but these guys aren't doing anybody a damn bit of good.

They quietly bought a tract within my in-law's ranch from an out of state owner and were going to come in and put one of these stink farms right in the middle of a beautiful spread and he had to pay them twice the going rate to keep them out.

Was what they did illegal? No. Was it unethical? Hell yes.

Kennedy's comments seem a bit over the top but the huge corporations that farm hogs, pack beef, etc. are all exerting a lot of muscle that's pretty detrimental to the lifestyle of our traditional mom & pop operations.

[fluiddruid]

I live in Iowa and, to be blunt, one of the reasons that I have remained a vegetarian is a hard look at pork producers here. It's a huge environmental issue in the Midwest. Hog lots are really the worst polluters in Iowa -- hogs produce an amazing amount of offal and th ways to get rid of it usually involve polluting the ground water (and that's if they don't screw up).

It seems that Mr. Kennedy was misquoted, and I certainly agree that corporate hog lots need to be reigned in, so I'm afraid I don't see the reason for a slam.

[Sweet Willy]

Fluiddruid, We feel your pain. NC is a close second to Iowa in hog production. Mom and pop operations are a thing of the past here too but the biggest and dumbest thing is the fact that this is hurricane alley. We count on a few good storms every year and a really big one every couple years. The NC coastal plain is a unique eco system like nowhere else in the world. The Albermarle / Pamlico sound is one of the largest inland estuaries in the world and wetlands here are only rivaled by the everglades. All of these facts were overlooked when the corporate hog farmers came calling. What few restrictions we had in place were, and still are being overlooked by the fat cats in Raleigh who only care about the water for one week a year when the wife and kids come down on vacation. If you are still wondering if corporate hog producers rival the destruction of Osama, take a gander at here;

http://www.neuseriver.com/floyd.html

and here

http://www.ibiblio.org/prism/apr98/hogfarmers.html

and here

http://www.hogwatch.org/getthefacts/facts_vs_myths.html

and here

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/whpaper/WQswine.html

Alot of this damage can not be undone.

[wring]

Ya know Willy we'd just about put the 'pork farmers do not equal Ossama' hyperbole to rest.

consensus seems to be "Kennedy probably did not say it in the first place" (tho he quite likely made some reference to teror and destruction, it doesn't appear that even the places making the claim are claiming that those are his actual words).

consensus also seems to be "there's problems associated w/large pork farms".

As a card carrying liberal, I'm glad you're posting those links, but puh-leeeeze, refrain from the hyperbolic crap that caused a gentle soul like zev to post a rant in the first place.

thanks.

[Polycarp]

::: applauds Sweet Willy's post :::

[Sweet Willy]

As a card carrying liberal, I'm glad you're posting those links, but puh-leeeeze, refrain from the hyperbolic crap that caused a gentle soul like zev to post a rant in the first place.

Wring, I am sorry if the comparison bothers you. I don't really think Zev Steinhardt is well informed on the issue though. I know Zev has a bad taste in his mouth for Islam and Arabs but maybe I should send him a glass of the water that millions of us North Carolinians drink every day and then see what kind of taste he has in his mouth.

[wring]

Willy

I am not disputing that the hog farmers cause problems.

however to make the link/comparison to OBL, WTC bombings is in fact hyperbolic crap and shouldn't be encouraged.

[Sweet Willy]

Wring , The corporate hog industry is slowly destroying a way of life, a multi million dollar fishery, a multi billion dollar tourism industry, and an entire eco system. The comparison is a bit of a stretch as to the methods but the results are devastating in both cases. Only thing is that hog farmers seem to be doing this on a domestic level with the help of our elected officials. The entire nation saw the planes destroy the WTC. We just don't get that kind of press here.

[wring]

Willy
Demonstrate for me, please how these hog farmers have:

1. Caused the death of 3000 people w/in hours

2. Done so for the expressed purpose of killing/terror.

Then we'll compare.
Til then, let me assure you that your stance is hurting your position.

it's hyperbolic fucking crap and you know it.

[Sweet Willy]

Wring, If the hog industry hi jacked a thousand planes today and loaded them with hog waste and then crashed them into the Neuse river it would still be a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what has been done. Would that make it ok to compare then? It is an agenda that has operated with little or no regrd to the people it affects. They know what hog waste does to the river and the people who swim, boat, and work on it. They don't care. This is not mention the many species of fish and mammals that are now extinct in our waters. Osama Sucks. Corporate hog industry sucks.

[wring]

Fucktwit.

Person A has as his intent the causation of death and destruction. and causes same, to a great degree

Person B has as his intent greed, and to gain $$ does stuff that as an effect, damages the planet, destroys people's lifestyles over time.

they aren't even in the same fucking ballpark.

YOu know, I once had 2nd degree burns covering my torso, blisters some were 4 inches across and 10 inches long, from a boiling water incident. My mom said "I know what you're feeling, I turned on the tap water and scaled my finger once".

No, the two are not similar.

NOr, is being robbed "just like you've been raped".

nor is some corporate fucking goon who damages the environment while causing havoc among those folks who live nearby anyfucking thing like a maniac who plots and plans for years to specifically cause as many civilian deaths as possible in as short of time as possible.

YOu are damaging your position and you don't even see it. Your repeated claims that 'it's just like OBL' allows people to dismiss your actual fucking arguments that exist in reality

bah. It's like talking to a fucking wall.

[Sweet Willy]

Look, I never said "it's just like OBL". It is not just like OBL but there can be a comparison made. Wonder how much money we have spent searching for ONE MAN while an entire industry that is killing my home land goes unchecked? Osama is just one man.

[wring]

YOu seem to have a grasp on the enormity of WTC etc.

can you begin then, to appreciate how people who lost their loved ones might feel, oh, I don't know, pissed off if some dweeb on a message board made comparisons between what they've gone through and a corporations' greed and avarice?

A 'comparison' can be made between any two things. If nothing at all else, they co-exist on the same planet.

there's a difference between saying 'a comparison can be made' and 'a valid, meaningful comparison can be made.

your comparison is neither valid or meaningful.

And it only (as I've mentioned in at least 2 other posts) allows people in your target audience (of those who don't believe that the hog farmers are causing harm), to immediately dismiss you and your arguments as obvious hyperbole.


"Gee, if he's making such an exaggerated, bizarre and obviously wrong comparison as hog farmers/OBL, then most likely he doesn't have the real data to support his position, his claims are most likely the same sort of exaggeration, bizarre and obviously wrong stuff".

gads. get a clue would you?

YOu don't convince people of the sanity and rightness of your claims by talking idiotic craziness.

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by Sweet Willy

Wring, I am sorry if the comparison bothers you. I don't really think Zev Steinhardt is well informed on the issue though. I know Zev has a bad taste in his mouth for Islam and Arabs

Huh? Excuse me?

You know I have a bad taste in my mouth for Islam???

How in Sam Hill do you know what kind of a "taste" I have for Islam?

Or do you just make the assumption that because I'm Jewish I'm automatically anti-Islam?

Oh, yes, I forgot. You're the guy who branded me a racist simply because I am Jewish.

Do me a favor Sweet Willy, willya? Don't post what you "know" about me until you hear it from me, OK? If I say somewhere that "All [fill in your least favorite ethnic/religious/racial/economic/political group here] are bums and should be shot," then you can say that I am against said group. Until then, please don't go repeating things you don't know, OK?

BTW, wring, it wasn't so much a rant (I try to avoid that) as much as a "I can't believe he said that! :eek:

Zev Steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

And, BTW, Sweet Willy, I saw, first hand, in person (not on any television screen) what OBL did. I doubt there is anything you could show me in North Carolina that the hog producers are doing can possibly compare.

I'll take your word that the hog producers aren't saints, but you just can't compare the two.

Zev Steinhardt

[Sweet Willy]

YOu seem to have a grasp on the enormity of WTC etc.

Yes. I am not sure that you have a grasp on the enormity of the hog waste pollution. That is where the comparison comes in. If you know the pain of 9/11 then maybe you can feel the pain of a devastated population at the shitty end of a river of hog waste.



You know I have a bad taste in my mouth for Islam???

How in Sam Hill do you know what kind of a "taste" I have for Islam?


I think you and I have had some frank exchanges on these issues. If I have misread you, please feel free to give us your disposition towards Islam and Arabs. While you are at it, tell me exactly what you know about hog waste and its affects on marine biology, as you seem to think its not very important.

[Sweet Willy]

Originally posted by zev_steinhardt
And, BTW, Sweet Willy, I saw, first hand, in person (not on any television screen) what OBL did. I doubt there is anything you could show me in North Carolina that the hog producers are doing can possibly compare.

I'll take your word that the hog producers aren't saints, but you just can't compare the two.

Zev Steinhardt

If you would like to take the time and interest I will be glad to give you a tour. It will change your mind.

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by Sweet Willy



I think you and I have had some frank exchanges on these issues. If I have misread you, please feel free to give us your disposition towards Islam and Arabs. While you are at it, tell me exactly what you know about hog waste and its affects on marine biology, as you seem to think its not very important.

To my knowledge, we have not discussed Arabs and Islam. We have discussed your opinion that all Jews are racists.

I don't want to turn this into a debate on Arabs and Islam. I don't have a problem with Arabs or Islam. I do have a problem with some things done by some Arabs or Muslims (just as I have problems with some things done by Jews). But against Arabs or Muslims in general, I don't have a beef.

And while I will admit that I am not a marine biologist, and I don't know the full effects of hog waste on marine life, I still highly doubt that there is anything you can show me in North Carolina which, as a direct cause of hog waste, is worse than what I saw on September 11, 2001.

Zev Steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by Sweet Willy


If you would like to take the time and interest I will be glad to give you a tour. It will change your mind.

I highly doubt that.

Zev Steinhardt

[wring]

and again, you conveniently ignore the issue.

there is a critical difference between these two statements:

1. "a comparison can be made"

and

2. "a valid and meaningful comparison can be made"

And you are doing a huge fucking disservice to the victims of the hog farmers you despise by failing to recognize that fact.

In the meantime, I'll go back to my table in the "Liberal but not a fucking lunatic" section, and order up some Brie & Fruit.

[Sweet Willy]

I don't want to turn this into a debate on Arabs and Islam. I don't have a problem with Arabs or Islam. I do have a problem with some things done by some Arabs or Muslims (just as I have problems with some things done by Jews). But against Arabs or Muslims in general, I don't have a beef.

And while I will admit that I am not a marine biologist, and I don't know the full effects of hog waste on marine life, I still highly doubt that there is anything you can show me in North Carolina which, as a direct cause of hog waste, is worse than what I saw on September 11, 2001.

Zev Steinhardt


Zev Steinhardt , I said that you have a bad taste in your mouth for Islam. Is that really out of line? Really? Or could that be an accurate characterization? I didn't say you hated them or wanted to kill them. So, anyway, when you come down here bring your hip waders (you'll need them to get through the hog shit in the wet lands) and your snorkel gear (you'll need this to see the mountain of hog shit at the bottom of our water sources that makes ground zero look like an amusement park) and be sure to bring any anti biotics you might have on hand to fight the deadly infections you will get from coming into contact with all of the hog shit and decomposing hogs. You might also want to bring some deodorizer. Most of us have learned to live with the smell of hog shit and rotting flesh but you might need some help at first.

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by Sweet Willy


Zev Steinhardt , I said that you have a bad taste in your mouth for Islam. Is that really out of line? Really? Or could that be an accurate characterization? I didn't say you hated them or wanted to kill them.


Again, please go back and re-read what I wrote.


So, anyway, when you come down here bring your hip waders (you'll need them to get through the hog shit in the wet lands) and your snorkel gear (you'll need this to see the mountain of hog shit at the bottom of our water sources that makes ground zero look like an amusement park) and be sure to bring any anti biotics you might have on hand to fight the deadly infections you will get from coming into contact with all of the hog shit and decomposing hogs. You might also want to bring some deodorizer. Most of us have learned to live with the smell of hog shit and rotting flesh but you might need some help at first.

Again, I didn't dispute your account of what goes on. I don't know and I'm willing to take your word for it. But you know, decomposing hogs and such, while undeniably bad, still don't equal terrorism, mass murder, etc. Not even close.

Zev Steinhardt

[Sweet Willy]

Look Zev, you start a pit thread about an unfair comparison and then admit that you know nothing about one side of the comparison. So then, on what grounds do you bring this here? Your argument is out of ignorance and assumption. Like I said, come see the devastation here first hand. Come wallow in some pig shit. Come drink, wash and bath in the water of rural eastern NC. Come meet the people of Cedar Island, Harkers Island, and Atlanitic. See how a way of life has been destroyed. Come see fishermen with festering sores and infections on their bodies. Come have some oysters in a local restaraunt that have to be brought in from Texas because ours are now poisonous. Go ask the people of Maryland and Chesapeake Bay what the cost and human toll of this is. Come grab a handful of toxic, bacteria infested muck from the bottom of what was once one of the most productive inland fisheries known. Come sit in on a session of the NC house and see how corporate influence dictates over the poor population of Down East NC. Come watch a hog operation spray a few million gallons of raw hog shit into MY water supply. If Osama was poisoning my water with hog shit I'd bet your position would change.

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by Sweet Willy
Look Zev, you start a pit thread about an unfair comparison and then admit that you know nothing about one side of the comparison. So then, on what grounds do you bring this here? Your argument is out of ignorance and assumption. Like I said, come see the devastation here first hand. Come wallow in some pig shit. Come drink, wash and bath in the water of rural eastern NC. Come meet the people of Cedar Island, Harkers Island, and Atlanitic. See how a way of life has been destroyed. Come see fishermen with festering sores and infections on their bodies. Come have some oysters in a local restaraunt that have to be brought in from Texas because ours are now poisonous. Go ask the people of Maryland and Chesapeake Bay what the cost and human toll of this is. Come grab a handful of toxic, bacteria infested muck from the bottom of what was once one of the most productive inland fisheries known. Come sit in on a session of the NC house and see how corporate influence dictates over the poor population of Down East NC. Come watch a hog operation spray a few million gallons of raw hog shit into MY water supply. If Osama was poisoning my water with hog shit I'd bet your position would change.


Sweet Willy,

It's true that I don't know the extent to which the situation is down there in NC. However, there is practically no way it can be worse than what happened on September 11 in New York City, Washington D.C. and western Pennsylvania.

Again, I'll agree with you (for the sake of argument) that the hog farmers are not saints. I still don't think you can say that they are as bad as OBL and his gang.

But, if we must agree to disagree on the subject, so be it.

Now, I'm still waiting for you to retract and apologize for that crack about my feelings and Arabs and Muslims.

Zev Steinhardt

[Miller]

Most of us have learned to live with the smell of hog shit and rotting flesh but you might need some help at first.

Ever since you showed up, Sweet, I think we all know what that's like.

[Sweet Willy]

It's even worse than that because *then* Israel has to negotiate with the Palestinians on refugees, etc., after having given up all it's bargaining chips.

In any event, the Saudi plan (unless I missed something) has one fatal flaw. The pre-1967 borders do not include the Temple Mount. I don't think any Israeli leader would ever give up the Temple Mount, given what happened there and in the rest of the old city during the 19 years that Jordan controlled the area.

Zev Steinhardt

Well, I, personally, am no fan of Arafat.

Unfortunately, I don't see anyone else on the horizon who would treat Israel any better if Arafat dropped dead tomorrow.

So, the answer, IMHO, is no. But that doesn't meant that Israel is better off because he is around.

Zev Steinhardt



It's also possible to postulate that Israel was extremely lucky (or had Divine aid, if you wish) in the '56 and '67 wars. Had the Arab nations gotten the jump on the Israelis in '67 as they did in '73, who knows if Israel would be here today?

Zev Steinhardt

And let's not forget that the 1973 war against Israel was started on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar.

In short, in a war, you can't be observe the enemy's holidays. They would (if they could) bomb us on Christmas, the Fourth of July and Thanksgiving. Why shouldn't we bomb during Ramadan???

Another point, religious considerations aside. Winter is coming. Winter, I am told, is fairly brutal in Afghanistan. If we halt the war for Ramadan on Nov 17, it will be much more difficult to pick it up again afterwards; which could result in a danger to American soldiers.

Zev Steinhardt



Zev , you sure that you don't have a bad taste in your mouth for Arabs and Islam? They are doing some bad things to Israel and they for the most part have no respect for the religion that you ascribe to. So if "a bad taste in your mouth" isn't a good way to describe it, what is? Indifferent? nah... Objectionable? that might work...'course that is about the same as "a bad taste in your mouth."

[Sweet Willy]

Originally posted by Miller


Ever since you showed up, Sweet, I think we all know what that's like.

Good. If I irritate you that much just by being on this message board, maybe you can get just an idea of what living in the middle of a stinking ass hog production region is like. At least you can tune out.

[Ferrous]

Gee, Willy, I can't see how any of those quotes show that Zev dislikes Arabs or Muslims. I see two factual statements, one piece of speculation on a factual matter, and an opinion about a specific person. Try again?

[Muffin]

If pigs could fly . . .

[Sweet Willy]

Originally posted by Muffin
If pigs could fly . . .

They would shit in everyones water...

[Sweet Willy]

Originally posted by Ferrous
Gee, Willy, I can't see how any of those quotes show that Zev dislikes Arabs or Muslims. I see two factual statements, one piece of speculation on a factual matter, and an opinion about a specific person. Try again?

Nah.

[jack@ss]

"There is no way something I know next to nothing about can compare with something I have seen firsthand". :rolleyes:

[JohnBckWLD]

My threats, from least to most threatening:

3. Hog Producers: Who raise pigs and shovel slop.
2. Robert Jr.'s Uncle, Ted: Who a drunken slob and raises taxes
1. Osama: Who won't eat pigs but associates with them.

[zev_steinhardt]

Wow, you certainly did some serious research, Willy.

As Ferrous was kind enough to point out, the quotes you dug up (at least this time you didn't take them totally out of context) don't show that I dislike Arabs or Muslims in general.

The first quote was my opinion on the Saudi peace plan. If my displeasure with the plan means that I am anti-Arab or anti-Muslim then there are plenty of Arabs and Muslims (the leaders of Hamas or Hezbollah, for example, who would not like any deal where Israel gets to exist) who are anti-Arab and anti-Muslim.

The second quote was my opinion of Yasser Arafat. I will admit I do have a problem with him. But a problem with him doesn't mean I have a problem with all Arabs any more than my problem with O.J. Simpson means I have a problem with blacks or professional football players.

The third quote was a question on what might have happened if the Arab nations surprised Israel in 1967 the way they did in 1973. It was simply a question, nothing more. I don't see how you can say I am anti-Arab or anti-Muslim from that question.

The beginning of the fourth quote was a rhetorical question on why a military campaign is not inappropriate during a religious holiday. As precedent, I gave the fact that the Taliban's co-religionists started a war on their opponents holiday (as well as their own, since Yom Kippur was during Ramadan that year, IIRC). I then pointed out that since it is unlikely that the Taliban would pause their attacks for American holidays (do you doubt this?) that we shouldn't pause our attacks on theirs. This had nothing to do with their religion or that they were Arabs. If we were at war with France, I'd advocate attacking on Bastille day just like any other day.

The second portion of the fourth quote was a comment on the weather. Am I anti-winter?

Do I disagree with Muslims on matters of religion? Of course I do (if I didn't, I'd be a Muslim). Do I disagree with Arabs in general on Mideast policy? You bet I do. Do I disagree with liberals on the issue of abortion-on-demand? Sure. But just like I don't "hate" liberals, I don't "hate" Arabs or Muslims simply because we have policy or religious differences.

Zev Steinhardt

[Sweet Willy]

Wow, you certainly did some serious research, Willy.
Yeah. Still 1500 or so post of yours to read.

The second quote was my opinion of Yasser Arafat. I will admit I do have a problem with him. But a problem with him doesn't mean I have a problem with all Arabs any more than my problem with O.J. Simpson means I have a problem with blacks or professional football players.

Actually you go on to say that you don't know of anyone that would be any better to replace him. What do you base this on? Why don't you tell us who you do know of that might replace him and why they would not be any better.

The third quote was a question on what might have happened if the Arab nations surprised Israel in 1967 the way they did in 1973. It was simply a question, nothing more. I don't see how you can say I am anti-Arab or anti-Muslim from that question.

So you were happy about the "Arab Nations" attacking Israel? Or was there some displeasure with the "Arab Nations"? You have repeatedly told me that Israel <> Jews. Where do you get off making the same kind of query? What in your mind makes Arab nations any more Arab than the Jewish state is Jewish?

Do I disagree with Muslims on matters of religion? Of course I do (if I didn't, I'd be a Muslim). Do I disagree with Arabs in general on Mideast policy? You bet I do. Do I disagree with liberals on the issue of abortion-on-demand? Sure. But just like I don't "hate" liberals, I don't "hate" Arabs or Muslims simply because we have policy or religious differences.

Zev Steinhardt

Zev, I never said that you were anti - Arab now did I ? I said that you have a "bad taste in your mouth". It is a metaphor comparing what one might feel when tasting something that is not completely agreeable. Are you completely agreeable with Arabs Zev? I know you are not, and I think you are missing the point of the hog farm comparison, and I think your "bad taste in you mouth" probably has something to do with why you would choose to argue something that you admit you know little about. Give it a rest.

[waterj2]

Actually you go on to say that you don't know of anyone that would be any better to replace him. What do you base this on? Why don't you tell us who you do know of that might replace him and why they would not be any better.
He said that he didn't know of anyone better that could replace Arafat, not that he knew that there was no one better. There's a difference.
So you were happy about the "Arab Nations" attacking Israel? Or was there some displeasure with the "Arab Nations"? You have repeatedly told me that Israel <> Jews. Where do you get off making the same kind of query? What in your mind makes Arab nations any more Arab than the Jewish state is Jewish?
The "Arab Nations" are the nations of the Arabian peninsula, the nations which belong to the Arab League, whatever, it's a fairly standard term for the nations to which he is referring. As far as I know, Arabian is a geographical term. And even if he did use the term "Arab nations" inaccurately, it doesn't equal evidence that he is disagreeable towards Arabs or Muslims.
Are you completely agreeable with Arabs Zev? I know you are not...
How, pray tell, could you possibly know this? Please, explain. Your last attempts sucked, but maybe you'll get a little closer to providing something rational to support this statement if you try a little harder.
...and I think you are missing the point of the hog farm comparison, and I think your "bad taste in you mouth" probably has something to do with why you would choose to argue something that you admit you know little about.
No. He's saying that he has seen nothing to indicate that the mass murder of several thousand people is an appropriate comparison to the damage done by hog farming. Basically, he's pointing out the same truism as Godwin's Law, namely that making comparisons to bin Laden/Hitler weakens your argument.

[Spavined Gelding]

At the risk of injecting a little rationality into what seems to have abruptly become a pissing match, let's try to put Bobbie K. Jr.'s comment into context. While his comparison was more than a little far fetched and stupid, there is some connection to what is going on in this State right now.

Within the last year or two the County Supervisors in, I think, Hamilton County, Iowa, tried to in assert county zoning restrictions on confinement livestock facilities. Out here in the land of the tall corn that means hog factories and the incredible quantity of stinking liquid manure they produce. Hardly a week goes by that there is not a manure spill someplace in the State that gets into a river or stream and kills a whole bunch of fish. For the most part the fish are trash fish, carp and shiner minnows, but the manure does foul the streams for a while.

The State Legislature in its wisdom authorized county zoning some years ago but denied the counties (and the cities for that matter) the power to zone, restrict, regulate or generally screw around with agricultural operations.

Hamilton County told a big hog outfit that they could not put up a confinement facility under its zoning ordinance. The hog company went to court. The trial court upheld the county on the theory that the county rules were health regulations, not zoning. The State Supreme Court, on appeal, said that the county's rules were zoning and that the county had no authority to prohibit or regulate agriculture and that the hog company could put its facility wherever it damn well pleased and that the county could do nothing about it.

Meanwhile, our neighboring State of Minnesota enacted a moratorium on manure lagoons. Since lagoons are the only practical way to stockpile pig, chicken and other livestock waste, this meant that Minnesota was closed to new confinement facilities and Iowa was wide open.

This year's legislature took up a bill that would have granted the counties SOME, but not complete, authority to regulate confinement facilities. There was a furry of arm bending, back rubbing and general legislative gaiety as the pork farmers lobby, the cattle feeders lobby, the packing house lobby, the insurance company that pretends it is a granger society and the "it's my land I'll do with it what I want" coalition put the old pressure on rural legislators who make up a majority of the two houses although they represent about 40% of the population. After an impressive display of political muscle by the anti-county zoning people the bill died an ugly death.

The bill will come up again next year and since the 2000 census will have kicked in by then the result may well be different. The fact remains that entrenched agricultural interests managed to defeat a measure that was clearly favored by a majority of the voters. In the mean time confinement hog lots are going up all over the place. The hog lot people know that they have about 18 months to get going because the rules of the game are going to change after that.

OBL may murder and bomb all he wants but he is not going to be able to thwart the will of the people. For the last 10 years or so Big Pig has thwarted the will of the majority that in this State. It was in this context that Kennedy made his ill-advised comment. The DM Register, ever looking for the sensational story, took some sort of second hand report of the Kennedy speech and ran with it.

You two may now resume your spat.

[Sweet Willy]

Spavined Gelding, your account of Iowas battle is a near mirror image to the battle in NC with one exception; These are not "trash fish" in the NC estuaries. These are flounder, trout, stripped bass, mussels, clams, oysters, crabs, shrimp, scallops, etc. "Governor Good Buddy" and his cronies have been cozy with the hog producers for a long while, ignoring the will of the people who must endure the consequences of their actions. "Governor Good Buddy" is also largely responsible for bringing the Global Trans Park to Kinston NC. Kinston has one of the most deplorable waste treatment systems in the state with violation after violation and spill after spill. Where is Kinston? Right along the Neuse river just a few miles above the Pamlico. The NC license plate agency was designated to collect $5 from every license tag applied for in five counties to construct the Global Trans Park. It is a multi million dollar facility built in a town that can't even manage their own waste due to a lack of funds that they have been begging for.

And the comparison? I know everyone can remember when the media scare du jour was contamination of our water supply by Osama. Osama couldn't do the damage done to our water supply by the hog industry if he tried.

[Spavined Gelding]

Willy, don't even think about pulling me into your silly ass fight or inducing me to defend Boy Bobby's silly comparison. The last thing we need out here is some Easterner who can't tell a barrow from a gilt telling us what's good for us when we have long sense figured that out. The best way to piss off a Hawkeye is for some stranger to tell us that he knows us better than we know our selves. Thus the semi-hysterics from the DM Register. The same applies to you. You take care of your sewage lagoon and we will look to ours.

[fluiddruid]

Spavined Gelding, I am also in Iowa and I have posted in support of more regulation for hog producers. It's not just an "Easterner who can't tell a barrow from a gilt" who is interested in this issue.

Ask around in Iowa: would you like a large new hog lot in or adjacent to your town? If you get one single yes, I'd be bloody surprised.

We all know too well what damage lagoons do. I'll tell you that any time, and there are a lot of Iowans who agree with me, so don't pretend this is a case of out-of-state leftists making an issue out of nothing.

To summarize:

1.) "Boy Bobby" did not make the comparison attributed to him so your comments about it are irrelevant.

2.) I agree that there was probably some overemphasis of the situation, but let's not pretend that dragging up Sept. 11 is limited to one side. I'd be hard pressed to think of a recent issue that hasn't been, in some way, tied to Sept. 11 because Sept. 11 is on our minds and incites an emotional response.

3.) Irresponsible journalism is not excusable just because you disagree with the speaker.

4.) Pollution is an issue that everyone has a right to an opinion about, and you certainly do not get a monopoly on the truth because you are a local, particularly when locals are hardly united on the issue.

Finally -- since we're in the Pit -- use your fucking brain for a moment. You are yet another example of why people automatically assume the average IQ in our state is 50 below average. You've got my two cents -- now go buy a clue.

[Sweet Willy]

Willy, don't even think about pulling me into your silly ass fight or inducing me to defend Boy Bobby's silly comparison.
I am not pulling you into anything. The best way to piss off a Tarheel is to put words in his mouth for him.

The last thing we need out here is some Easterner who can't tell a barrow from a gilt telling us what's good for us when we have long sense figured that out.

And the last thing we need here are the piss poor hog production pratices that originated in Iowa. Keep that nasty shit in your own back yard.

[Demosthenesian]

Um, Hi. Hate to interrupt, but it is very likely that Hog farming was responsible for the water pollution tragedy in Walkerton, Ontario, that led to dozens of people dying and hundreds becoming sick, in some cases receiving permanent damage even after they "recovered".

So, when somebody says this:

can you begin then, to appreciate how people who lost their loved ones might feel, oh, I don't know, pissed off if some dweeb on a message board made comparisons between what they've gone through and a corporations' greed and avarice?

I'd respond by pointing to the people of Walkerton, and suggesting that sins of omission can be as deadly and vile as sins of commission. Dead is Dead. Also that Hog farming can be deadly.

[Polycarp]

First point: I get irate whenever anybody compares their pet bete noire to the events of 9/11. That emphatically includes Robert F. Kennedy Jr., as well as Jerry Falwell, the anti-abortionists, the gay rights advocates who have addressed homophobia in those terms, the folks who feel that slaughter of animals for food and clothing is genocidal, and so forth and so on.

Sweet Willy did not make that comparison. He is defending the enormity of the hog waste problem in Eastern North Carolina, with which he, and I, are fully cognizant.

Those of you who were paying attention to the news in 1999: Remember Hurricane Floyd? Remember the dead animals, the flooded waste lagoons, the houses filled with polluted filth after the flood?

Several large pork producers have claimed that it would severely injure their profit to institute any means other than lagoons of disposing of hog waste. And because they are large contributors to the two political parties, they have been allowed to continue to accumulate hog waste in these lagoons.

Any hurricane runs the risk of flooding some of them. Floyd flooded them all. The ecology of Albemarle and Pamlico Sounds and most of the inland waterways was severely damaged. Nearly a million people were left homeless -- not due to the flooding but because their homes were unsafe to return to thanks to the pollution brought in by the flooding. The number still homeless (in FEMA-supplied emergency housing, and facing eviction from that thanks to time limits on its use) is in six figures, IIRC (close to it, if not still there). Damage from Floyd was in the billions of dollars.

The majority of the pollution from the flooding, resulting in the majority of the damage both to the environment and the economy, was from the hog waste lagoons.

Was this damage the result of deliberate terrorist malice? Absolutely not. The result of criminally negligent behavior? IMHO, yes.

Are Willy and I calling it "equivalent to 9/11" in any way? No. Are we saying it's a major and severe problem that RFKJr. has highlighted, albeit offensively? Yes.

Having vented at RFKJr., would you consider venting your spleens, not on an idiot from a famous family who has poor taste in drawing comparisons, but on criminally negligent corporations with no idea of social duty?

[fluiddruid]

Couldn't have said it better myself, Polycarp.

[Spavined Gelding]

Hey, Fluid, (this being the pit) Get your head out of your ass; we are on the same side in this fight. My point is that we back country hicks are fully aware of what big time livestock production is doing to our State. The last thing we need is for some outsider (like Mr. Kennedy) whose sole claim to our attention is a famous name, telling us what we already know: that for too long we have been held captive by corporate agriculture. With the reapportionment of the legislature, however, we can hope that the grip the Ag-business Trust has had on out collective testicles is about to be loosened.

Fluid, you are closer to the excesses of monster confinement set-ups than I am. DeKoster’s several pig factories are just up the road from you. This part of the State is more inclined to small and medium sized dairy operations that to thousands and thousands of sows and feeder pigs under one roof. Like most people, I would be less than pleased if one of these operations set up quarter mile up wind from my home. The fact remains, however that so long as a hog (or chicken or beef or dairy or mink or what ever) confinement facility meets pretty minimum manure management standards as enforced by and increasingly over worked and under staffed and funded Dept. of Natural Resources there is nothing I can do about it under the law as it stands today.

As to whether Boy Bobby made the comparison between Big Hog and OBL, it is pretty clear to me that he said something of the sort and that its purpose and effect was to further polarize a fundamentally local issue. He just was not being helpful.

[wring]

actually, Poly with all due respect, Willy did make that comparison : If you are still wondering if corporate hog producers rival the destruction of Osama, take a gander at here; rival the destruction of Osama (which of course included the 3000 murdered people)
to which I replied
I said "Ya know Willy we'd just about put the 'pork farmers do not equal Ossama' hyperbole to rest. andand however to make the link/comparison to OBL, WTC bombings is in fact hyperbolic crap and shouldn't be encouraged.
he replied The comparison is a bit of a stretch as to the methods but the results are devastating in both cases. (snip) The entire nation saw the planes destroy the WTC. We just don't get that kind of press here. Which does in fact make the comparison that gee, if only we'd have the press coverage similar to 9/11, everyone could see. Not, 'this is bad, too' but 'it's only the lack of press coverage. my reply was Person A has as his intent the causation of death and destruction. and causes same, to a great degree

Person B has as his intent greed, and to gain $$ does stuff that as an effect, damages the planet, destroys people's lifestyles over time.

they aren't even in the same fucking ballpark.
nor is some corporate fucking goon who damages the environment while causing havoc among those folks who live nearby anyfucking thing like a maniac who plots and plans for years to specifically cause as many civilian deaths as possible in as short of time as possible. , spelling out very specific, and real differences in the two situations, which makes the comparison invalid.

his reply I never said "it's just like OBL". It is not just like OBL but there can be a comparison made. Wonder how much money we have spent searching for ONE MAN while an entire industry that is killing my home land goes unchecked? Osama is just one man. so he seemed to try and back track, except, of course, that gosh, 9/11 was the result of 'one man' vs. the hog farmers, who are many. Apparently by now, we're supposed to be more upset about the hog farmers than OBL (of course, he fails to understand that the organization that OBL is with is the issue, not OBL himself)
and on to the most egregious direct comparison . If you know the pain of 9/11 then maybe you can feel the pain of a devastated population at the shitty end of a river of hog waste.

Bullfuckingshit. 3000 intentional murders, the crippling of a city's economy, their fire department and rescue operations, not to mention the incredible loss of property all occuring in one motherfucking day is a wholefuckinglot bigger than an industry through corporate greed and lack of governmental regulations, performing wreckage and destruction of a piece of the environment. Yes, the latter is reprehensible, but you know what else it is? Some of it is reversable (if not now, at some point in the future), slower, and certainly a whole fuck of a lot less deadly.

And, to the person above who noted that there had been some illnesses then deaths linked to this. Yes, no shit, everybody mourns deaths of loved ones. And yet still, there's a very fucking real difference between several deaths from illness from an accident (even if it's linked to corporate greed) and 3000 intentional murders

And if you don't believe it, then I suggest that you refrain from speaking to anyone who's had a loved one murdered. You'd be likely to say something heartless like "I know what you're going through, my uncle died of TB".

IT's heartless (generally) to compare grief. IT's especially egregious if it's done to attempt to publicize one's pet cause (even if it's a worthy cause)

and, Poly what Willy hasn't fucking gotten yet is that by continuing to draw the comparison, he's hurting his own cause. Like I posted earlier, it's much easier for people to dismiss hyperbolic argumentation, then closely examine it for the truth.

So, if he'd simply start saying "9/11 was horrific. While this doesn't compare in level and intensity, it, too is a horrible, horrible situation, and there's quite a few things that we can do to correct/help the situation". then people would be less willing to call him to the pit, and might actually listen to what he's saying. fer cryin out loud, my first posting in this thread was saying that the statement didn't appear to be accurate quote, if it was an accurate quote it was reprehensible, but the lesser statement of 'this sucks' (in essence) did appear to be true. But Willy has continued to come and defend the 'comparison', and as I quoted above, even implying that the hog producers are 'even' or 'worse' (there's more of them than just one man and his comment that if you'd seen the devestation at 9/11 then "Maybe" you can feel the pain of this"

[fluiddruid]

Originally posted by Spavined Gelding
Hey, Fluid, (this being the pit) Get your head out of your ass; we are on the same side in this fight. My point is that we back country hicks are fully aware of what big time livestock production is doing to our State.

I'm afraid that wasn't apparent from your post, but I'm glad that you agree.

The last thing we need is for some outsider (like Mr. Kennedy) whose sole claim to our attention is a famous name, telling us what we already know: that for too long we have been held captive by corporate agriculture.

Well, knowing about it and doing something about it are two different things. I for one would be glad if this sort of pollution became a national issue if that pressured our state legislature to do something about it. Let's face it -- the corporate hog producers are the people with the power in this state.

With the reapportionment of the legislature, however, we can hope that the grip the Ag-business Trust has had on out collective testicles is about to be loosened.

Frankly, I wouldn't hold my breath, but I certainly hope so.

Fluid, you are closer to the excesses of monster confinement set-ups than I am. DeKoster’s several pig factories are just up the road from you. This part of the State is more inclined to small and medium sized dairy operations that to thousands and thousands of sows and feeder pigs under one roof. Like most people, I would be less than pleased if one of these operations set up quarter mile up wind from my home.

Yes, exactly. Yet it's not enough to show this sort of criticism -- and this seems to be the only criticism that gets any press (ie. I want big hog factories and cheap pork, just not near me). This is why I am doing my part by not eating pork, as I figure the vote I get with my dollar is worth a lot more on this issue than the vote I get on election day.

The fact remains, however that so long as a hog (or chicken or beef or dairy or mink or what ever) confinement facility meets pretty minimum manure management standards as enforced by and increasingly over worked and under staffed and funded Dept. of Natural Resources there is nothing I can do about it under the law as it stands today.

Of course there are things that you can do about it, you just can't expect politicians to step up and do it for you. If you think the issue is important, there are ways to enact change. Fatalism sure never solved a problem.

As to whether Boy Bobby made the comparison between Big Hog and OBL, it is pretty clear to me that he said something of the sort and that its purpose and effect was to further polarize a fundamentally local issue. He just was not being helpful.

Perhaps not. I wasn't at the speech, and I'm afraid I don't trust the Des Moines Register for an accurate account. (The papers out here in the Midwest really are shit, I'm sorry to say.) I share the disgust over sensationalizing every issue by connecting it OBL / 9.11, though I do think that backup would be very much appreciated if it gets us anywhere.

I just don't see such a polarization between national and local issues. A lot of rural areas seem to have this sort of feeling and I'm afraid -- as a person who's lived in different parts of the country -- I don't share it. When local officials are king of their respective hills and won't budge on an important issue, I think it's acceptable that an outsider speaks up when enough locals don't. After all, we don't have that many high profile liberals in this state who have enough influence to bring up the issue. Unfortunately, it seems to have backfired, but I for one would like people from outside to start pressuring us. We haven't done anything without this pressure, and I'm beginning to doubt that we ever will.

[Sweet Willy]

Wring, I am sorry if you take offense at the comparison. I am very pissed at the people responsible for ruining the Fishery, the livelyhood, the water, and the marine life in my home. It has been done systematically with the co operation of the people that were elected to ensure the quality of life here. They did not set out to kill a bunch of people, like Osama. They set out to make a bunch of money with little regard to me or my neighbors or my fish or my children. The level of destruction is beyond 9/11 in many, many ways and much of it is irreversible. You can build a new trade center. You can't bring back extinct shellfish. You can't have a summit with the speckled trout and convince them to come back to the Neuse. You can't have an open house at Adams creek and invite all the jimmy crabs back. I am sorry if it offends you, but if that is what it takes to get your attention, then so be it. BTW, next time you see John Edwards or Jim Hunt or Loch Faircloth out on the campaign trail, remember just how much these guys did for us and know that they can do it for you too.

P.S. If they capture Osama alive, it would be fitting to drown him in a festering cesspool of hog shit.

[Spavined Gelding]

Fluid, the comment about our inability to do anything about having a Big Pig set up in out back yard is simply an accurate recitation of the law in this State as it exists now. This is not fatalism. It is reality. However, I fully expect to see the legislature do something about it next session. As things now stand, under the 1990 reapportionment, representatives from districts containing some 40% of the population make up a majority of both houses. Under the 2000 reapportionment the imbalance will be temporarily corrected and the urban areas will gain representation and the rural areas will lose representatives. The new apportionment will be in effect for the legislature that meets next January. Once that happens I fully expect to see some sort of local control over big confinement facilities.

Certainly, for economic reasons, big confinement facilities will continue to be built. Up to now the power of the Ag-business lobby has made them out of bounds most regulation by the State and entirely exempt from local control. A legislature based on the State's present demographics will be much less subject to strong arming by Big Ag than the last outfit. I expect the next legislature to do something about our problem.

[fluiddruid]

Originally posted by Spavined Gelding
Fluid, the comment about our inability to do anything about having a Big Pig set up in out back yard is simply an accurate recitation of the law in this State as it exists now. This is not fatalism. It is reality.

I am talking about doing something in a general, not a specifically legal, sense.

I hope you're right about the legislature, but we'll see.

[wring]

you know Willy you keep appologizing then keep doing the same thing. Apologies are only sincere if you stop the offensive behavior.

I understand the difference between killing a species and destroying a building, killing thousands, making many more thousands homeless, more unemployed, financially devestated, all while they got to breath in the air that contained bits of their loved ones. yep.

Don't bother appologizing to me. YOu belittle the experience of those who've been traumetized by saying 'it's worse down here, at least you didn't kill of a species of animal'.

Worse and myopic yet, you've not ever acknowledged that it's likely that you're doing your cause harm by this tactic. you allow people who don't want to believe you, to easily dismiss your position; and at the same time alientate those people (like me and other liberals) who resent hyperbolic statements, meaningless comparisons to an international tragedy, all to 'get people's attentions'.

Shrug.

so be it.

[Polycarp]

Point taken, and I'd effectively disregarded the fact that Willy did endorse the comparisons, more or less.

Look, troop. Because something is important, and IMHO the problems here and in Iowa are important, does not justify belittling the unprovoked attacks that killed thousands -- I remember worrying about and praying for several downtown-NYC and DC-near-the-Pentagon friends from this board who were not heard of for some time after the attack.

[Sweet Willy]

Wring, Did you see all the wise cracks and belittlement in the begining of this thread? Some people think this comparison is funny and belittle our catastrophie.

Geez.....I better call my brother. He's a manager of a hog farm just outside Ida Grove. If the government is about to arrest all those nasty hard-working hog-farmers, I'd better give him a heads up.



That is, if I can get hold of him.....he works about 80 hours a week.....


"Was it a plane full of pigs that plowed into the north tower of the World Trade Center?"

—I know it's not funny, but I can't help thinking of "Pigs In Spaaaace: The Final Chapter!"


If we could ask the pigs, you know they'd be all about Osama. He's not eating them.

Terrorist pigs. I'm gonna cook up some bacon tonight.


and this is from the OP.

Did hog producers bomb the U.S.S. Cole?

Was it a plane full of pigs that plowed into the north tower of the World Trade Center?

Was it a faction of those radical pig farmers who bombed the U.S. embassies in Africa?

Now, granted, I don't have much use for pork products. But, come on! This is soooooooooooooooooooooo far over the top that I couldn't believe about it when I read it.



I will lay off the comparison. This shit aint funny. What you said here is to start with is probably the best way to get at it.

something along the lines of 'while attention is focused on the threats of terrorists, we forget the enemy within'

[wring]

yes, I saw them, and that was the point I was making about using 9/11 as a comparison. It harmed your cause, because, as you saw (finally), it was so hyperbolic as to be meaningless, allowing people to dismiss your cause as being irrationally stated.

I will lay off the comparison.


good.

. This shit aint funny.
correct.