Pros and Cons of Homeschooling

[Palo Verde]

I read the previous threads about homeschooling, but they don't really address the issues I'm interested in.

In you experience or opinion, what are the biggest advantages of homeschooling?

What are the biggest disadvantages of homeschooling?

I am considering homeschooling my 3 (so far) children, and I'm looking for an intellegent debate as to its merits. The homeschooling info on the web is all very pro, and doesn't discuss the downside.

We aren't religious, so that side of it is irrelevant to me.

Socialization: This issues is dismissed as silly on most homeschooling web sites that I've seen. They say that it is unnatural for children to socialize with only their own age and homeschooled children do better in dealing with adults, babies etc. But don't kids need a lot of time with other kids their own age?

Tolerance: Kids in public school have the blessing and curse of dealing with others from all backgrounds. On the one hand these other kids bring in bad habits, obnoxious ideas, and undesireable influences. On the other hand, my kids might grow stronger by being challanged. Or they might just end up in trouble.


Should homeschools be more regulated, like have the kids pass yearly exams? Or maybe the parents should have to demonstrate that they have the ability to adequately teach the children?

[Liberal]

If you are capable and qualified (in your own opinion), I highly recommend that you homeschool your children. You can certainly teach them tolerance by example, and socialization by whatever careful measure you desire. You can take them to a homeless shelter and work for a day as a volunteer. You can take them to parks, where you can supervise their time with other children. In other words, the one thing that you get that makes it all worthwhile is control. Given your love and the comittment to your children that you obviously have, if you have the means to educate them yourself, then you have the opportunity to make all kinds of difference in their lives that you otherwise would not.

[evilbeth]

Well, for one thing, it's a heck of a lot easier to breastfeed your children (that is, if you can't afford the formula prescription) until they hit puberty if you don't have to ship them off to school. :rolleyes:

I think homeschooling needs to be very regulated, just as non-home schools are. We can't be so concerned about what children are learning only if they leave the house to do it.

The biggest advantage I see is having more control over what your children learn. For some people, that can mean limiting their exposure to things you consider evil (sex, homosexuality, religions other than your own, etc.) To others, it means exposing them to more things than they would going to outside school (art, music, unlimited ("banned") books, etc.)

The biggest disadvantage is that the education could end up as limited as the teacher's experience. Also, the families economics are limited because the teacher is limited in outside employment choices.

[erislover]

For those of us addicted to the past who, unlike the OP, didn't read it the first time around:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76482

I more or less support homeschooling by a capable adult/parent, but the socializing element does bother me to some degree. Many of the contacts we make in life are formed through being thrust into similar situations together.

[erislover]

wow, that indirectly leads to my pit-battle with Spiritus! Good times.

I did want to add, though, this:
Sayeth evilbeth
I think homeschooling needs to be very regulated, just as non-home schools are. I find this comment to sound very reasonable, but do you have any ideas about how to implement it?

[tracer]

If you're going to home-school, just make sure you get your child one of those tinkertoy-like kits for building organic molecules. Those are way cool.

[Guinastasia]

I think what disturbs me is people like my neighbor-sick of being called to the school because her two criminals in the making weren't behaving, she simply pulled them out and claimed to be homeschooling them. She simply let them run wild (the youngest was eleven at the time).

Yuck yuck yuck.

[evilbeth]

Originally posted by erislover
I did want to add, though, this:
I find this comment to sound very reasonable, but do you have any ideas about how to implement it? [/B]

Unfortunately, no. I can't think of any completely reliable ways to do this without infringing on what you can and cannot teach your own child in your own home. Standardized testing being what it is, I don't think that's really the way to go.

[erislover]

Yeah, I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head either which wouldn't be overbearing or inappropriate.

You know, hmm. How do private schools go about getting accredited?

[evilbeth]

Originally posted by erislover
You know, hmm. How do private schools go about getting accredited?

That's a good question. Unfortunately, I have to get off-line now and can't check. But I'll either look into it or see if someone has come back and posted it when I get back.

[Triskadecamus]

Home schooling:

Pro:

Direct contact between the student and the person most likely to know the most about that student.

Flexibility to adjust pace in each subject to the specific needs of the student, at the specific moment that that adjustment is needed.

Potential to reward the application of effort, and incremental achievements in real time with familial approval, a very powerful motivator.

Scheduling in conjunction with personal and familial needs can reduce lost time, without interruption of either consideration.

Con:

Greatly reduced level of interaction with peers, and external authorities, which can reduce total socialization, and emotional development, in some cases.

Reduced access to resources, and encouragement in areas not of interest to that particular Home educator.

Logistical difficulty in assessing the total progress from outside of the family. While not a problem in most cases, where homeschoolers are highly motivated to help their children, it is very damaging to wait until serious deficits develop in a child’s education before implementing remedial strategies.

Loss of experiences common to children in centralized educational models. While not inevitably harmful, the absence of common social matrices is a potential barrier to later social relationships.

Tris

[clairobscur]

I find this comment to sound very reasonable, but do you have any ideas about how to implement it


Here, since the school programms are standardized at a national level, an inspector would just come from time to time to check if the kid roughly knows what he would be supposed to be taught at school.

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

Some other cons:

** Not as easy to participate in extracurriculars, such as sports

** May have a slightly higher burden of proof for college admission

I think both of these can be overcome, so they're not biggies, but in interest of listing all cons, I throw them out there.

FWIW, I know some homeschooling families get together to do some common activities like field trips to museums.

[suranyi]

Originally posted by Triskadecamus
Home schooling:


Con:

Greatly reduced level of interaction with peers, and external authorities, which can reduce total socialization, and emotional development, in some cases.

Tris

My niece is being home-schooled, and we were very worried about this possible problem. But it turned out not to be a big deal at all. As it happens, there are LOTS of kids being home-schooled within a few miles of where my sister lives, and they get together to socialize very often. She's now one of the most socially outgoing children I've ever met.

Ed

[Liberal]

I, too, have never understood the socializing complaint. Your homeschooled children will socialize to whatever extent and in whatever manner you allow.

[Triskadecamus]

I did not say that it was inevitable that a child would be hurt by the reduced level of contact. But that the potential was there, and in some cases children might fail to gain the skills needed to live in a society of varied and different people. In some cases, like one of my nephews, limiting the number of peers and authorities with whom he had to deal was one of the primary advantages to home schooling.

But the realities are that hundreds of people are present in public schools, and in public workplaces. Learning how you relate to those masses of strangers is a skill you might need. Failing to provide some outside approximation to those experiences is a possible source of inadequate socialization particular to home schooling. It is not unreasonable to make note of it in a evaluation of factors pro and con.

Tris

[Palo Verde]

Thanks for your comments.

Most people seem to feel it's not a bad idea.

I actually would love to hear from someone who is totally against it and thinks it is a terrible idea, just to get that point of view.

I'm pretty sure my husband will be against it, and at least I'd like to think about the anti-homeschooling side before I discuss it with him.

[kniz]

I may not be the brightest light around here, but neither am I a dumbie. I cannot understand how any large sector of society could think they were able to teach their children:
English and literature
Math (including algebra, geometry and trigonometry).
Science
History, government, geology (not social science*).
Languages
better than persons that have been trained in these disciplines.

I am not saying it is not possible or that public schools are doing a tremendous job. However, on a large scale I think homeschooling is a dangerous concept considering the general level of intelligence.

*On second thought if homeschooling could get away from the idea of social science it just might be worthwhile

[erislover]

I would imagine that children that are homeschooled may quickly catch up to the parent's level of ability, after which an external tutor would probably have to come it for many parents.

But any parent who has enough money to stay home with their child probably has a decent education (since wealth and education (not intelligence!) are often associated).

[kniz]

I am not totally against it, but I do have serious reservations, including some that have been poo-pooed here. One that hasn't been touched on I will call togetherness.

I have heard the story of how the husband comes home from a long day at work and wants a little peace and quiet. The wife on the other hand has been at home with the children and wants to talk to an adult. This is true especially in cases where the children are pre-school, but not exclusively. My wife and I raised 5 children (including 3 adopted) so I am not the type that avoids a commitment to children. On the other hand, I think some thought needs to be taken about the commitment that the mother is making and how in an effort to save her sanity the father will need to support her in an inordinate manner.

For those who do it right and are committed "God bless you". To those that do it in any other way or for the wrong reasons "God save us".

[Shodan]

Originally posted by kniz
I may not be the brightest light around here, but neither am I a dumbie. I cannot understand how any large sector of society could think they were able to teach their children:
English and literature
Math (including algebra, geometry and trigonometry).
Science
History, government, geology (not social science*).
Languages
better than persons that have been trained in these disciplines.

I am not saying it is not possible or that public schools are doing a tremendous job. However, on a large scale I think homeschooling is a dangerous concept considering the general level of intelligence.

*On second thought if homeschooling could get away from the idea of social science it just might be worthwhile
I expect that any reasonable high school graduate could teach any or all of these subjects. There are lots of curricula available.

It amounts basically to intensive, year-long tutoring by someone extremely familiar with the student, extremely committed to the success of the student, and with an automatic hand on discipline.

On average, home-schooled children do better than those in public education across the board. Shall I dig up some cites?

The socialization thing is nothing. Check any private school in the area. Ours has an extensive program to include any home-schooled student in sports, drama, speech contests, and so on. In some states, public schools are required by law to accept home schooled children into their intra-mural programs. I have heard horror stories of public school administrators who denied this.

One con of home schooling is that the public school system hates it with a passion. You don't want to know the things I have had said to me by public school administrators who thought my kids were being home schooled.

Regards,
Shodan

[Solomon7t]

Being a student who is currently doing homeschool I think my opinion might actually be worthwhile here. My school background: elementary school was a small liberal private school (K-6th Grades), middle school was a public school (7-8th Grades), highschool was public school during 9th and 10th grades, for 11th grade I have been doing homeschool. I started doing homeschool at the tail end of 10th grade do to a broken ankle and the inability to take the metro bus to school. I have two tutors who each grade two of my subjects (math, science, english, and history). My Math work is a Geometry 1 class which I take online at this website (http://www.boxermath.com). My history is Honors American History which I also take online at webpage for my homeschool. Science class is Honors Biology and is also taken at the homepage for the school. My English class is Honors American Literature and I take it offline (I have a booklet of assignments, a text book, and several books; all were mailed to me).


Now for the good stuff, my opinion on the dang thing. I get all As, if I dont get As on an assigment or test then it is returned to me and I have to redo it. That is my favorite part of homeschooling, instead of letting kids fail and not learn they force you to learn it or do it again. However there isnt that much else I like about it. Most of the schoolwork is really easy and I dont really feel that Im learning anything important (however when at public school I did not feel I was learning anything important either). Homeschool can become very boring, Im at home for about 90% of my time and I have lost contact with many of my freinds. :( To me, losing contact with freinds is the worst part of homeschool, I never realized how important school socializing was to my life (especially since I consider myself antisocial) and things can get quiet depressing at times. Next year I plan on going to Hamilton Music Academy for my senior year and I am actually excited about getting back into a public school.

[kniz]

Originally posted by Shodan
I expect that any reasonable high school graduate could teach any or all of these subjects.

Do you know that an embarrassing number of high school grads do not know that New Mexico is a state or where it is? An equally embarrassing number do not know what decade WWII was fought in.

As erislover so aptly noted:

any parent who has enough money to stay home with their child probably has a decent education (since wealth and education (not intelligence!) are often associated).

So now is this our new elitist niche? Now we say "My children were homeschooled", rather than "My child went to boarding school"?. I am not that sure about the ability of the high school graduate to handle this job, even if he/she is from a high socio-economic group. Are we jumping to homeschooling because of the lousy way public education is educating and yet depending on those that it has educated to do a better job?

autz appears to be perfectly capable, but she is not the only person that is homeschooling. There are examples of horrible things happening with homeschooling. You know my cite.

[Shirley Ujest]

I have a couple of cousins that are home schooling their kids. (nine kids between the two of them, and no, these cousins are not married to each other..) None of them for religious reasons. One is in the military and they moved around alot. The other did not like the educational system where they were at.

All of their kids are doing exceptional. By far the best mannered children I have ever come across. it helps that both mom's are teachers to begin with. All are not college age as of yet, so we will wait and see.

That aside:

My only beef, and it is a minor one, but it irks me still, is that it seems that homeschooling moms seem to dress their daughters up like they are in Little House On The Prarie. You know, the skirts and pinafores look with a kercheif. I am talking about the hard to dress ages of 9-12. I've seen this alot Especially at all the yard sales I hit and Joanne's fabrics. and while I certainly do not want my daughter wearing the slut of the month vamp outfit, this classic over correction of puritanically inforced innocence bothers me.

I am all for homeschooling when you have an excellent support of other families who can smooth over your weak spots. If I had to teach math and science, I would be screwed. When our children were born, Mr. Ujest and I easily divided up the "subjects" that we would be covering (but not limited too):

Mr. Ujest: Sports, All Things Related to Building and Auto Mechanics, Tools and Their Many Uses, German, Learning to BBQ, Ballroom dancing and Rock and Roll.

Me: English, Reading, Writing, Comedic Timing (no really, I'm fighting genetics here with the German side of the Ujest family as in there ain't no comedic timing) Trivia, Movies, exercize, swimming, speling :) , How to Pack for a Trip, Classical Music and Cliche's.

Our children, I pray, will never be scientists or some other thankless brainstaking job that is rarely rewarded and takes 100 years to pay off the college loans. I pray they are plumbers. Union Plumbers. $100 an hour to unclog your disgusting toilets and no college loans to pay off. :D A mom can dream, can't she?

[Liberal]

I do understand your point, Tris, and it is well taken. My only point is that a homeschooling parent may include socialization skills as a part of the curiculum itself, spending time each day, if necessary, in public places where — and here's the difference — you as a parent may supervise and influence whatever interactions take place. Then you may discuss the day's activities with your child and help her to contextualize her experiences in the manner that you believe contributes to her social and ethical growth. That seems to me superior to random interactions with God-only-knows-whom, and attempts by you to discuss with your child interactions that you did not witness.

[kitarak]

Libertarian:
You seem to be saying that the advantage of homeschooling is you can control your childrens' socialisation. Since when has controlling every aspect of your childrens' lives been considered a good thing?

I have no strong opinions for or aganst home schooling. It can be great, it can be awful. It simply depends on the particular people involved. However, attempting to control your children completely like that is, in my opinion, a horrible idea, and should be avoided at all costs.

Actually... What I said isn't entirely true. I have no opinion for or against the idea of home schooling. In practice I think it's quite hard to get right. A tendency to overcontrol is, as I said, one problem. Another is making sure that your children have a well-rounded education.

Ujest: WHen you say your husband and you would be covering those subjects, do you mean that you will get someone else to help cover other subjects? I know that you said you hope they wouldn't grow up to be scientists, but shouldn't that be their choice? Further, even if they don't grow up to be scientists, do you really think that they shouldn't have at least some general scientific knowledge? If not, I won't argue with you about it. It's your business. On the other hand I do think it's a terrible idea. Still, YMMV. If everyone agreed with me the world would be a very boring place. :)

[tygre]

I know a lot of homeschoolers and considered it myself, but my son is so social that I don't think I can adequately offer enough socialization for him.

What I have seen a LOT of is parents homeschooling for religious reasons, and their kids wind up getting a skewed education because of that. Evolution, sex ed, whatever.

Many areas have homeschool groups and those can be a great place to meet other families who are homeschooling, share resources, and get together and teach subjects that you are talented/interested in.

Most homeschoolers do not have problems getting into college from what I have heard. The high school aged ones I have known got their GED's and took ACT/SAT tests and were able to get into fairly good schools.

[suranyi]

Originally posted by kniz
I may not be the brightest light around here, but neither am I a dumbie. I cannot understand how any large sector of society could think they were able to teach their children:
English and literature
Math (including algebra, geometry and trigonometry).
Science
History, government, geology (not social science*).
Languages
better than persons that have been trained in these disciplines.

I am not saying it is not possible or that public schools are doing a tremendous job. However, on a large scale I think homeschooling is a dangerous concept considering the general level of intelligence.

*On second thought if homeschooling could get away from the idea of social science it just might be worthwhile

I can only comment on the one case of a home-schooled child I know well -- my niece, as I mentioned in this thread previously.

Her mother (my sister) has a Ph.D. in molecular biology. Her father is a high school science teacher. They are both very well read, especially my sister.

I don't think they'd really have a problem teaching any of those subjects, at least through a high school level. And if there's something my niece wants to learn that they don't know, they know lots of intelligent, capable people.

Ed

[kniz]

Originally posted by suranyi
Her mother (my sister) has a Ph.D. in molecular biology. Her father is a high school science teacher. They are both very well read, especially my sister.

Which helps to confirm:

Originally posted by erislover
But any parent who has enough money to stay home with their child probably has a decent education (since wealth and education (not intelligence!) are often associated).

Does not contradict my statement

kniz
I am not saying it is not possible

I personally find it interesting that the father is a high school science teacher. No particular point to be made from it.

[suranyi]

Originally posted by kniz



I personally find it interesting that the father is a high school science teacher. No particular point to be made from it.

My understanding is that it's largely because he IS a public high school teacher that they decided to home school their daughter. He sees what goes on "from the inside", and has gotten very disillusioned with the politics and bureaucracy involved.

He himself still enjoys teaching, and he is consistently known as one of the best teachers at his school. But he doesn't like what goes on around him.

Ed

[burundi]

Occasionally I do programs for homeschoolers at the museum where I work. The homeschooled kids don't seem any brighter than the kids from public or private schools. The main difference I've noticed is that the homeschooled kids tend to be much quieter. YMMV.

I think homeschooling can be a great option. It seems especially useful for those with special-needs kids. However, I'm really glad I went to public schools and I wouldn't homeschool my kids. At public school, I interacted with people of all different races, cultures, and socioeconomic backgrounds. I don't think I would have gotten that if I'd been homeschooled. The social circle seems mostly limited to parents' friends and other homeschoolers. It was good for me to learn that there was a big wide world out there beyond my family and their associates.

I also learned some valuable lessons in public school. Not fun lessons, but useful ones: Sometimes people are mean for no reason. Sometimes life is unfair. Sometimes you have to suck it up and put up with a classmate/teacher you dislike. You can't have the teacher's attention all the time. Your parents don't know everything and they can't fix everything. Would I have learned these things eventually? Probably. Did public school give me a thicker skin and a sense of independence from my family that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise? I think so.

Just out of curiousity, autz, what are your husband's objections to homeschooling?

[Dangerosa]

Possibly the biggest con to homeschool is that it is HARD. Its a full time plus job to teach three children at three different levels. Its hard for me to get mine to sit for twenty minutes to listen to the same book! That doesn't mean it not worthwhile, just that you need to be committed to it and understand the committment up front. If you aren't, you aren't getting the pros of homeschooling.

And the pros are pretty good. Very small class sizes (unless your three so far is going to turn into twelve quickly). No one cares about your kids more than you. No one knows your kids better than you. You can teach to their interests and move at their pace.

Personally, I'm sending my kids to public school. I don't have the emotional resources to be a full time mom and teacher. Not to mention I'd be financially better off sending them to an expensive private school then quitting my job. But I'm planning on supplementing their public school education with some homeschooling. (And saving the salary for college).

[E-Sabbath]

Originally posted by Libertarian
I, too, have never understood the socializing complaint. Your homeschooled children will socialize to whatever extent and in whatever manner you allow.

Well, it all depends on where you live. I wasn't home schooled.
However, I lived five miles from the nearest person my age, and was in the local gifted program, which hopped school districts every two years or so. It certainly and definately retarded my socialization. No chance of after-school activities, no real being in or out of a clique. It wasn't until high school that I returned to where I "belonged." And I really blossomed there.

[Tsubaki]

Originally posted by burundi
At public school, I interacted with people of all different races, cultures, and socioeconomic backgrounds. I don't think I would have gotten that if I'd been homeschooled. The social circle seems mostly limited to parents' friends and other homeschoolers. It was good for me to learn that there was a big wide world out there beyond my family and their associates.

I also learned some valuable lessons in public school. Not fun lessons, but useful ones: Sometimes people are mean for no reason. Sometimes life is unfair. Sometimes you have to suck it up and put up with a classmate/teacher you dislike. You can't have the teacher's attention all the time. Your parents don't know everything and they can't fix everything. Would I have learned these things eventually? Probably. Did public school give me a thicker skin and a sense of independence from my family that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise? I think so.


Amen. One reason why I want my kids to go to school here is as a learning experience for ALL the kids. My son came home today saying he hates Japan. When I asked why, he said its because kids call him American. Well, he's not. He's Japanese and Australian. But over here, foreign=American. My son is going to learn how to deal with stuff he doesn't like, and the kids around him are going to have their view of the world broadened somewhat. And I think that is a great thing.

[Rushgeekgirl]

Homeschooling parent checking in!
I love homeschooling. So does my daughter.
I took her out of a public school last year, when she was in sixth grade. I have access to the textbooks the local schools use through my job with the Board, so I'm keeping her close to the regular PS schedule, with some accomodations. She has dyscalculia so she is really benefitting from one-on-one teaching. Her TCAP scores in Math have never been higher and I'm really happy to see her finally grasping those basic math concepts.
I don't keep her hidden from society. She has lots of neighbors that she hangs out with after they get home from school. She takes a Watercolor class with other kids and adults. She is a very active volunteer at a local pet adoption agency. She travels alone to stay with friends in Texas every summer. We do most of the same things public school kids do...library, museum, zoo trips. She doesn't seem to have much trouble making friends.

Some of the things she is learning she'd never have the opportunity to learn in the public school in our district. She wanted to learn a foreign language-wasn't offered here in seventh grade. She wanted to take an advanced Art class-wasn't offered here in PS. She chose to take World History, which isn't offered until tenth grade. Seventh grade English here pretty much involves a few book reports and lots of grammar. She wanted more so I gave her more. She loves to read and write stories and she's really good! My brother, a High School History teacher, enjoys helping with History, and I use a great textbook from National Geographic for Geography. It pretty much teaches on it's own, but we supplement with the 'Net.
As for Math, she'd never have gotten any sort of assistance here, because there is no assistance here for dyscalculia. You either get stuck in a full LD-Dyslexia class or...nothing. She'd have gone on not knowing how to tell time, being told she was lazy, etc. and when she hit Algebra she'd probably sink to rock bottom.
I can't really give a Con for homeschooling-for us. It's lots of work for me, but I love it so much it doesn't really matter. It's very satisfying work. The biggest Pro would be individualized education. I know what she needs the most help with. I know we can't say, "Okay, addition of fractions this week, subtraction next week." because she may not understand addition of fractions in one week. We even make lesson plans together. I trusted her to choose many subjects, books, and projects.

I don't know what to say. She seems like a perfectly normal kid, maybe a little bit immature to some folks. She's not into that rebellious stage yet, still plays with Barbies and her beloved horses, doesn't understand "the deal with make-up and hair". We argue sometimes, and she certainly knows I'm not perfect. I'm definitely not elitist...they have my name listed as the antonym in M-W, I'm sure of it :) Just your friendly neighborhood homeschooling, vision screening tech, animal loving, SDMB addicted redhead mom-chick.

I don't have a problem with public schools. I work for them and I see kids doing just fine every day. But it didn't work for us.
This works for us. :)

[Big Kahuna Burger]

I have a few questions/comments about homeschooling myself.

Most of my interaction with homeschoolers came in middle school, when I was winning Geography Bees. Generally, the homeschoolers I met were antisocial, and one of them was one of the most mean-spiritied people I've ever met. Of course, this was a small sample size (probably 10 people) and wasn't a good cross-section of the population. However, this has made me suspicious of how well these kids can socialize. I'd like to see if there's any study done on how well these kids socialize not just while they're being homeschooled but in adulthood. I ask this because, even though there's a big anti-high school sentiment on these boards, it does teach people how to work in social situations. I'd like to see if there are stats on how many are marriead, how happy they are with their social lives, etc.

[Cat Fight]

All right, don't yell at me but I'm about to be very biased and un-PC based on my observations of half a dozen home schooled kids. They tend to be, well, social retards. Two were religious, so there's that, one had very artsy parents, she was very shy and couldn't take any kind of criticism, another was a slave to any kind of authority... To me, socializing, good or bad, is what high school is about, and no amount of play dates or museum trips will make up for that. Of course, there are plenty of anti-social kids at school who have a tremendous amount of trouble fitting in. The biggest problem I can see about home schooling is the parent-child relationship. Is the child being given only one point of view on subjects (as opposed to the views of various teachers in each grade)?

[black rabbit]

I work in the Education & Religion department at the local Public Library and I temp in the Children's department quite a bit, so I get to work with both the homeschoolers and the homeschoolees on a regular basis.

They run the gamut. I've been truly impressed by the apparent maturity of some of the kids, and deeply by the utter ignorance displayed by some of the parents. I once got asked for a curriculum guide for Black History Month from the "Aryan perspective."

[black rabbit]

I've been deeply disturbed, that is.

[DSeid]

It boils down to why would you want to home school, and can you achieve those goals in your particular home better than your particular school would for your particular child?

Many of us, are honest with ourselves like dangerosa, and realize that we would not have the patience with our own kids to be good teachers for them full-time. Many of us have good public school systems that have teachers better prepared to teach than we are. (I may know more science than the elementary school teacher, but that doesn't mean I can teach it worth a damn.)

Will your child gain anything in home-schooling that your providing supplemental materials, experiences, and tutoring can't provide? Is there an advantage to the common core experience of public education as a base? Is the motivation one of protecting your child from ideas that you find objectionable? (But you've dismissed the religious reasons.)

Some parents (not me) have the patience and dedication to home-school. Some have kids with specific needs that public school will not address. Some live in areas where the public school option is so awful that even my teaching my kid would be a better choice.

What are you wanting to achieve and why?

[Palo Verde]

DSeid: My oldest is schedule to start Kindergaarten next year, that's why homeschooling seems important to consider now.

The public schools here aren't terrible, but they aren't great either. It seems the homeschooled children I've met are better behaved, more polite, and less likely to get involved in drugs or violence. In fact, they are less mature, which I see as a good thing, because school kids mature so fast.

I'm afraid I don't have the patience or discipline to homeschool, but I havn't ever tried, so I can't be sure.

I have a B.A. in English, an M.A. in Linguistics, and my husband has a Ph.D. in Engineering. I was also a teacher for several years. So in theory at least, we're qualified and experienced. But the things I fear have little to do with the academic side of teaching.

I'm afraid my sweet, gentle and kind son will turn snotty and obnoxious if I send him to school. I'm also afraid he'll be too sheltered and insular if I home school.

There is also the issue of how to teach the oldest while watching a caring for the other little ones. And how to teach 3 different grade levels when they get older?

I've appreciated hearing all of your opinions and insights. It gives me someting to think about.

[MovieMogul]

I have a niece and nephew that have been homeschooled (hs) for over a year and it has been an unmitigated disaster. The boy is extremely bright and naturally curious, but none of this is being channelled productively; his potential is very obviously untapped (that is, obvious to everyone except his mother/my sister-in-law). He is lazy, never excercises or leaves the house and has no friends to speak of. The girl is older, very sweet and devout (they were pulled from public school for religious reasons), but still immature for her age and spoiled. It is easy to blame this on the mother (which we do), but it also reinforces all the reasons why I'm wary of the concept of homeschooling: It's genuinely hard and the repercussions for failure are so severe; it doesn't encourage the kind of socialization that kids really need; it is often done with the best intentions but for the wrong reasons.

Now obviously, I am willing to assume that's more of a worst-case scenario. But I used to run a college dormitory complex, exposing me to at least a thousand freshmen a year. My job would often involve overseeing roomate disputes, providing conflict mediation, etc. Usually, these things could be settled quickly, even if it was simply an "agree-to-disagree" model; however, once in a while, we'd run into a first-year student who just did not get the basic concept of "getting along": They were unused to communicating in conflict situations, they were used to having problems solved for them, they were unreasonable in their expectations of others and surprisingly immature and sheltered for someone their age.

Oh, and they were almost always home-schooled.

Now, these kids were obviously bright in a "book-smarts" way, but you could tell that they had no experience dealing with people, especially peers, dramatically different then themselves. That's why quotes like this (italics mine) My only point is that a homeschooling parent may include socialization skills as a part of the curiculum itself, spending time each day, if necessary, in public places where — and here's the difference — you as a parent may supervise and influence whatever interactions take place. Then you may discuss the day's activities with your child and help her to contextualize her experiences in the manner that you believe contributes to her social and ethical growth. That seems to me superior to random interactions with God-only-knows-whom, and attempts by you to discuss with your child interactions that you did not witness
strike me as rather absurd. This is like keeping your kid in the wading pool for 12 years; public school is like getting thrown into the deep end. Life consists of millions of random interactions and keeping your child in these safe little circles consisting almost exclusively of like-minded kids of like-minded parents strikes me as doing them a grave disservice.

Also (back to my dorm experience), my colleagues and I found home-school kids were disproprotionately likely to have *really* bad homesick problems and more likely to have their parents fight their battles for them (instead of solving it themselves). They were undeniably smart but also undeniably different; they stood out socially and had a harder time making friends. Usually I'd hear about how they'd get an apartment the next year and sort-of disappear into their studies. Given how great college experiences can be, I always felt bad for them and wondered if, with such obviously motivated parents, they couldn't have gotten the same level of education from a public/private school supplemented by special parental lessons/activities without suffering from the lack of exposure to people. Long before I had this niece and nephew, it was these first-hand experiences that turned me off of home schooling.

My sister and brother-in-law are planning on homeschooling their kids and I'm, quite frankly, terrified at the prospect. I know my sister and BIL love them very much, but I don't think they're up to the challenge, and the reasons I'm given are always these amorphous arguments that it would be "better", since they could watch over them so much more and control what happens to them (vs. the "unsafe", uncontrollable elements in schools nowadays). It reeks of over-protectiveness and seems catered to making themselves feel better rather than thinking about what's best for the kid.

Like I said, I know there are plenty of success stories with hs and I'm glad that it's really worked well for some. But being smart is different than knowing how to teach effectively; my wife and I have a satchel of degrees between us and we don't feel confident that we would be able to homeschool a kid. The more you know, the more you realize how much you don't. Which means if I'm going to resort to tutors and online resources and other kid's parents, I'd rather simply have them* attend school with everyone else since I can't really teach them how to make friends and avoid fights and deal with strange authority figures (how often do hs kids meet these, anyway?)--that's something they'd have to learn on their own. Our public schools have failed in many ways, but I still believe parents can help just as much by being involved with their kids' school lives as they can by simply assuming all the responsibility on themselves.

A bit of a ramble; just my $0.02.


(*speaking as a current non-parent; my wife and I have talked extensively about hs but don't yet have kids of our own, fwiw)

[Hoopy Frood]

Originally posted by kniz
Do you know that an embarrassing number of high school grads do not know that New Mexico is a state or where it is? An equally embarrassing number do not know what decade WWII was fought in.

Well I'll be honest, I don't know what decade WWII was fought in either.

Is that the "almost but not quite 1940's" decade? :p

[Freedom]

Do you know that an embarrassing number of high school grads do not know that New Mexico is a state or where it is? An equally embarrassing number do not know what decade WWII was fought in.

So was that an arguement for ar against sending your kids to public school?

[kniz]

Originally posted by Hoopy Frood
Well I'll be honest, I don't know what decade WWII was fought in either.

Is that the "almost but not quite 1940's" decade? :p

Well, how about today's news report: 57% of high school students aren't at the 'basic level" in history and only 10% are at "grade level". Maybe that argues for homeschooling, but not if these are the people who are doing the teaching.

[SDP]

Homeschooling elementary school children is one thing, but I think homeschooling a high school person is an entirely different proposition. I am a high school junior, and while my parents are quite intelligent (each of them a lawyer with postgraduate work), I just cannot imagine them teaching me what I've learned at school this year. It takes an amazing amount of versatility to go from teaching the properties of an ellipse to the assumptions for a 2-PropZTest to electromagnetism to Catherine de Medicis to Erich Maria Remarque to John Kesey to Catullus to Ovid to New Testament Greek to steatopygous figures from 20,000 BC that employed sympathetic magic to ... you get the idea. At the high school I go to you will have a teacher who has a degree in the subject he's teaching, who has devoted years of his life to its mastery, who has probably been teaching for years, and who knows exactly what he's talking about. Very, very few ordinary people are able to master all or even most of the subjects you learn in high school to the degree that they would be comfortable teaching them.

If you honestly believe you can do that, well, good for you, but I think you shortchange your kid if you try to teach him a subject you don't fully understand when a qualified teacher who has spent years studying that subject is available.

[DSeid]

autz,

So you are wanting to protect your child from "untoward" influences. The academic issues are, well, academic. ;)

It is a difficult decision. You really can't use the method of looking at homeschooled kids and saying that they are X or Y. Clearly there is a substantial selection bias here. Most (okay, I have no study to back this up) of families homeschooling are doing it to protect their little ones from the influences of secular education, often on religious grounds. These families are going to produce children different from the mean in social characteristics even if in secular school. Your own milage may vary.

I can't say that socialization in school is always a positive. Other kids can be vicious bastards. There are bullies. There are bad influences.

A modestly socially adept child with a strong base of values from their family will navigate these hazards, honing their skills as they go. All three of my kids have, even my youngest, now finishing first grade, who is an anxious kid who had lots of difficulties adapting to preschool. My eldest, now a sophmore, is still socially immature (a good thing), but has managed to gather a group of freinds at a similar social "maturity" level and yet in every other way of great diversity. He knows how to work in a group of peers, as part of a team, something essential for adult success, and something that homeschooling would not have taught him.

A child without social adroitness, especially one who otherwise does not "fit in" in some way, may have a very hard time. Perhaps they'll learn the skills. Perhaps not. I was a bullied kid. I can't say that the experience of being dragged around the playground by a jumprope tied to my legs was a great positive socialization experience. But I do not think that having my parents try to teach me at home would have done anything for my social skills. (No offense, Ma.) As for adaptability at college, I think my skill there was more a function of home, being the youngest of five and having to know how to share, rather than my having survived elementary school torments.

I am not being much help, am I?

[Hoopy Frood]

Originally posted by kniz


Well, how about today's news report: 57% of high school students aren't at the 'basic level" in history and only 10% are at "grade level". Maybe that argues for homeschooling, but not if these are the people who are doing the teaching.

Actually, my comment was a "ha ha only serious" observation on the fact that WWII started in 1939. :)

But the stats are disturbing anyway.

[madonnaman]

I thought I would chip in my own personal observation...

I was homeschooled, except for the first few years of elementary school. I was not homeschooled for religious reasons; I come from a progressive secular family. :) While homeschooling is not for everyone, I feel it worked out just fine for me. As for the academic angle, I feel I was quite well prepared for college. I graduated summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa last year, and will be attending a top 10 law school this fall. Socially, I don't think I was hurt by it. I knew numerous other homeschooled kids that I interacted with, plus some public school kids I met in my neighborhood and elsewhere. I did run across a few public school kids who didn't want to hang around me/be friends with me due to prejudice (anti-homeschool sentiment is not uncommon) but hey, it was their loss. Socially, the homeschooled kids I knew were a diverse lot, just like public school kids are -- some liked to hang around lots of other kids, and others prefered to have a smaller number of closer friends. I don't think either option is more valid than the other.

The only time I got a little burned out on homeschooling was during my senior year, mainly because I had reached the limits of what homeschooling could do for me and was eager to start college. Everyone thought I would have a rough time adapting to college -- nonsense! My motivation, both personal and academic, made it a piece of cake.

Like I said, homeschooling is not for everyone, but it does work for some. Many I know feel that high school was the best experience of their lives, and would not trade it for anything. For others, it was pure HELL. They had to endure poor quality teachers (no offense to the many fine teachers out there, but there are a few rotten apples in every barrel...), insane administration (i.e. zero tolerance craziness), cliques, taunting, bullying, rampant homophobia, pep rallies ;), etc. Since I was not your typical kid (gay, kinda nerdy, a liberal atheist in a very conservative Christian region) I suspect that had I gone to high school, my experience would have been more like the latter. I am not sorry that I missed out on the crap that some of my public school peers had to go through.

I suspect that most of the sheltered, immature homeschoolers that people encounter are those who are/were homeschooled due to religious reasons. Naturally, if your parents are trying to shelter you from the "evil" influences of the outside world, you are going to grow up differently. Fortunately, my parents were not like that.

[Becky]

Another personal experience ...

I was homeschooled for half of 8th grade through high school. My family had just moved to a new area, and the schools were horrible. I was extremely depressed because I was not learning anything, even though the schools had put me into their "accelerated" programs. Mom and Dad and I sat down and talked for a while and decided that we could do better, even with Dad working full-time and Mom part-time. I taught myself everything, with occasional conceptual help from the parentals. When I got too far for their knowledge, we called up the local community college. They were delighted to let me take calculus and some lab science courses. That was a few years ago ... now, I'm getting ready to start grad school, on full fellowship, this fall. I probably would have been a high-school dropout had we not chosen the homeschooling route.

On the issue of socialization: I had a friend during that time who had been homeschooled for most of her life. We met while I was still in public school, and I would often tell her about our nutcase PE teacher, or what so-an-so said about something, etc ... but she had no grasp of the idea that people would be deliberately hurtful to one another. When she went to college, she had to leave after one semester because of a severe depression. IANAD, but I do really think that her overly sheltered schildhood left her unable to deal with normal people. I see this as a drawback, or something to be cautious of. Parents that choose to homeschool are taking responsibility for everything that forms their children for several years. They need to make sure that the kids find out what the "real world" is. It's not always a problem, but it can also really screw things up for their kids.

Overall, though, the ~25 homeschoolers that I was in contact with were not less socially adept than the numbnuts that I went to school with. They were certainly more considerate of other peoples' feelings. If there were a large-scale study done over several years, I would expect the homeschoolers to come out about the same socially as public/private schooled children. In both groups, you'll get kids that have problems. Homeschooling parents, however, just need to take a little extra effort in that area to make sure that their kids will be able to lead productive lives with other people.

[lee]

My cousin started home schooling her brood when the school district decided that they were all going to separate schools. They felt that not having siblings around would help their individuality. She decided that she did not have 5 children just so that they could be all alone in the world. They seem happy.

[Shodan]

Originally posted by kniz


Do you know that an embarrassing number of high school grads do not know that New Mexico is a state or where it is? An equally embarrassing number do not know what decade WWII was fought in.


Right, and they are a product of public education. Surely homeschoolers can do at least as well as that.

As far as your point that home-schooling being an elitist boast, I am sure that in at least some cases you are correct. It is, however, a bit like the counter-argument to "being gay is a choice". Why would someone go thru all that if he/she did not have a choice?

Same with home-schooling. Why would anyone take on the daunting task of a full-time career tutoring a child, unless he or she honestly felt that it was the best alternative? Which means that you are almost automatically getting self-selection from those grimly determined that their children will get a better education than the parents did in the public system.

I think most of the problems with public education can be countered by parents who are involved with their child's education. Certainly it would seem that home-schooling parents are that, if nothing else.

At least in my state, home-schooled students are tested regularly to be sure they are on track. Almost without fail, they beat the norms hands down.

Regards,
Shodan

[Primaflora]

thanks Shodan, you've made the argument I've been trying to make in a coherent fashion.

We're currently applying for dispensation to homeschool on medical grounds and it's bizarre the hoops I'm jumping through. The school district would prefer that my child remain in school where he is learning nothing as is demonstrated by their own testing. He's socially a disaster area at the moment and is bitterly unhappy. No matter what happens with homeschooling, it's got to be better than what is happening in the classroom. I live in a state where virtually all the homeschoolers are fundamentalist Christian. it makes socialisation a challenge for us but it was no better in school.
I figure that no matter what happens I can't stuff things up any worse than the school was doing.
OK this is getting rambling and anecdotal ;)

[Lorenzo]

Golly, wouldn't it seem that there would be some jury-reviewed scientific studies of the effects of homeschooling to counterbalance all of this anecdotal evidence and perhaps dubious interpretation? Most people may know someone who was homeschooled and every one of them has a story. How is it possible that homeschooling can be so good and so bad?

My unscientific guess is that it all depends. It depends on the hs parent, the non-hs parent, the kids, the community, the local hs community, etc., etc., etc. and that it is impossible to predict at an individual level how it's going to turn out beforehand.

My older sister hs's her seven children. Her kids seem very well rounded. She says that it's so much work and sacrifice, she would not recommend it. She and her husband decided on day one that their kids would hs through sixth grade and attend Catholic school from seventh grade on. I thought this was a great compromise. They also go on hs field trips, play on all the park district sports teams, play in the grade school band, do Scouts, etc.

Does this mean anyone else should or should not hs their kids? No, of course not. What can we generalise from my sister's example? Pretty much nothing. Hs'ing is a personal decision. Most moms simply cannot do it for various reasons. If you can do it and think and believe you can do better for your children by hs'ing, maybe you should give it a try. You may know right away whether or not it's a mistake. You can always send your kids to public school if your hs'ing experience blows up.