You are not a minority, BITCH!

[monstro]

Argh. Yesterday I step into the lab and a fellow grad student asks me if I think if someone would give her thousands of dollars for being a Gypsy.

Yes, a Gypsy.


The story

I am a grad student at Rutgers U. in Newark, NJ. It's a heavily urbanized city that is predominately black (though immigrants from Portugal and the Caribbean make up a solid chunk too). The university is EXTREMELY diverse (we were voted most diverse university in the whole country by US News & Report). We have the whole United Nations thing going on. It's so diverse that EVERY group--racial/ethnic/religious/sexual--is a minority on campus. For someone raised in the South, it was a culture shock seeing so many different people.

The faculty is different, though. White folks aplenty, with a couple of Asian folks and Indian folks. Very very few black people. I'm one of two black graduate students in my whole department (of about 30 Ph.D students). No black faculty in my department. This is--remember--in Newark, NJ, one of the "blackest" cities in the country, where one would expect to find more than one black "token" in the crowd.

Even though it saddens me, I'm used to it. My whole life I've been the "only one". That's what being a minority means. It means always being the only one and sticking out like a sore thumb every day at work, even though the streets are full of people who look like you. It means having to take the minor "slights" from your jovial colleagues, pretending that they were meant as jokes, not as anything "serious". It means that when a lecturer starts spewings stats about black "crime", "health", "mortality", etc., you have to pretend that he's not objectifying you, just the people who look like you. If you can't cope with these things, you'd be bent out of shape all the time. This, as december would tell you, is unproductive.

It means being lonely sometimes and being overly self conscious. But like I said, you get used to it. And I wouldn't trade being who I am for all the money in the world (well, maybe I would have to think about it for awhile :)).

It's not all bad. The National Institute of Health is committed to bridging certain historical disparties, and in doing so, they have developed a funding program specifically geared to underrepresented and historically oppressed groups. Like black folk and Latinos. Even though my work is more ecological than medical-related, I receive funding from this program and I'm very grateful for it. Without it, I would be forced to teach (whereas now I do it voluntarily) and not be fully engrossed in my research. It's really been a blessing.

Now back to my rant...

My lab is composed of white women. My wonderful advisor is a white woman. All of the grad students--except for me--are white women. Including the chick who wants to suddenly claim "Gypsy heritage", even though this is the first time I've ever heard of her having anything beyond Polish grandparents. She was raised in Brooklyn, as an American, and as a white girl. Just a few months ago she told me she feels like a minority on campus because she's one of only a handful of white, American-born women in her classes :rolleyes:. Dumbass, I wanted to say. If she's a minority, what am I? She's got some nerve calling herself a minority when everyone in the lab is a white, American-born woman, including her boss! But when she said it, I was like "whatever" and just chalked it up to her usual cluelessness.

But now she wants to claim "heritage" that--IMHO--she doesn't have any business claiming. This blond-haired, hazel-eyed, white girl told me that she discovered that she has "Gypsy roots" (she doesn't use the word Roma or anything like that, nor does she explain what she means by "roots"). Not only does she want to claim it, she wants to benefit financially from it. She wants to find out if the program will consider "Gypsies" a minority. If she were truly a Gypsy, I wouldn't be angry. There's no doubt that Gypsies were and are very unpopular and have been discriminated against (even though they aren't included as one of the groups being targetted by the NIH, at least not explicitly). But she's not a Gypsy. She's a white girl from Brooklyn, who's never self-identified as anything other than a white girl from Brooklyn. The only language she speaks is Brookynized English (if you can call that English ;)). But now that her USGS funding is up, she's scrambling for money. Obviously she's desperate.

I'm angry because she seems to think there's nothing wrong with her "on-and-off" concept of minority. Being a member of a stigmized, isolated group isn't something you can turn on and off to suit your purposes. Whether I'm sitting in a crowded lecture hall or working in the laboratory, I'm a black person and everyone knows it. I would love to be able to turn off the blackness sometimes, like when I'm meeting someone for the first time or when I'm walking in a hoity-toity neighborhood by myself. I would love to be able to say I'm the "minority" when everyone who's running things--from my advisor to all the people on my disseration committee--are "like" me. But it ain't like that. I'm trying as hard as I can to get in one of those power positions. Fortunately I have government backing in my endeavors so that future generations won't have to be the "only one" all the damn time.

To me, if you have to "discover" your kinship to a group, then you have no business claiming that you are a member of this group, which is basically what she's trying to do. For instance, I would never say I'm Irish, even though I have Irish "roots". Not only is it a political thing (no one would look at me and see "Irish") but it's a cultural thing. I don't speak Gaelic. I don't clog. I have no desire to go to Ireland. I've never done anything uniquely "Irish". I don't think both forms of identification are required to justifiably claim heritage, but I would think they are both important, especially when you're representing yourself as a member of a particular group and you're being financially benefited from such representation.

Because it takes me a while to come up with all my snappy comebacks, I told the girl she should call the administrator of the fellowship and I gave her the woman's phone number. I kept waiting for her to laugh and say she was just kidding, but she was dead serious. I wanted to slap the bitch, yes I did. I wanted to take her on a walking tour around Newark and see all the people she's claiming "minority" kinship to.

As much as I love not having to teach, if she gets the money, I'm going to pull out of this fellowship. I don't want to be a part of something that participates in a mockery of its own noble goal. This decision will pain my advisor, no doubt, but it will hopefully pain her more to see what kind of sorry trash she brought into the laboratory. And believe me, this asswipe is trash. I hope one day she wakes up and finds herself in the body of a Gypsy, circa 1942, living in Germany (just like that Sheen guy in the Twilight Zone). Then we'll see how fast she appreciates being the white American-born female that she is.

(I'm aware that the idea of having an "exclusive" fellowship might rub some of youse the wrong way, so there's no burning need on my part to hear you say so. I look forward to your responses anyway.):)

[Guinastasia]

Not so fast, comrade!

If you were to go to Europe, you'd see there's a LOT of discrimination against "Gypsies".

Also, perhaps this girl IS being idiotic. However, as far as being Polish: one hundred years ago, Poles were considered dirty, stupid and animal-like. Most Slavs were-in fact, the word slave comes from the word Slav (which actually means "Glory" or "The Word".)

Of course, I call myself Irish/Polish, whatever. We also still have some Polish/Hungarian/Slovak customs on my mom's side of the family-certain foods, and traditions such as oplatki wafers on holidays (Unconsecrated communion wafers, blessed by a priest. You take a piece at dinner after everyone says grace).
I'm also very proud of my ancestors coming here with nothing, being poor serfs and starting over.

SHE is not a minority. SHE is an idiot.

However, don't make the mistake that Gypsies don't have it rough over seas.

[Guinastasia]

Oh wait-you acknowledge what I said about Gypsies.

Never mind. Sorry...

[stankow]

Originally posted by monstro
If she were truly a Gypsy, I wouldn't be angry. There's no doubt that Gypsies were and are very unpopular and have been discriminated against (even though they aren't included as one of the groups being targetted by the NIH, at least not explicitly). But she's not a Gypsy. She's a white girl from Brooklyn, who's never self-identified as anything other than a white girl from Brooklyn. The only language she speaks is Brookynized English (if you can call that English ;)). But now that her USGS funding is up, she's scrambling for money. Obviously she's desperate.
I can see where you're coming from, but the fact that she's white and was born in Brooklyn doesn't mean she's not a Gypsy. There are those of us who aren't swarthy and weren't born in a horse cart or between the matinee and the evening show of the circus that all Gypsies work at.

Am I a "minority"? Well, I've met exactly three Gypsies in my life that I wasn't related to (one of them on this board (hi Kal)), and most people I tell immediately say, "Wow, I've never met a Gypsy before!" Do I use it to my advantage, as this woman is apparently going to try to do? Never have, possibly because there weren't any "any minority" scholarships in my field.

Do I think this woman is grasping at a system that clearly wasn't set up to support people like her? Sure. But be careful about lumping all of us together like that, or I'll put the evil eye on you, you racist motherfucker.

(If I used smilies, there would be one right here. Just so's I'm not misunderstood.)

[monstro]

But be careful about lumping all of us together like that, or I'll put the evil eye on you

Please note that I don't think anything disparaging about Gypsies. As I said, if this cloaca really was a Gypsy, I wouldn't have any problem, and I would actually help her in her efforts in trying to get funding. But I know she's just playing this to get money. Lining the pockets of people who can claim any non-WASP "blood" is NOT the goal of this particular funding program.

And if you have the evil eye, I have the infamous black girl "cobra" neck. Necks beat eyes any day. :)

[Guinastasia]

Oh yeah? Well, well...I'll....I'll beat you with my ciupaga!!!

[Monty]

The young lady in question needs to determine if said minority is suffering any discrimination based on being said minority. If not discrimination, then no bennies, I guess.

[Barking Spider]

Even though Whites are not a minority(yet) in the US, they are a small minority worldwide.


Also, I question why the taxpayer funded National Institute of Health is passing out money on a racial basis. I thought that sort of racist paternalism was outlawed.

Also, how do you know she's not a Gypsy. Do you think you can tell just by looking at her?:rolleyes:

[Guinastasia]

Originally posted by Barking Spider
Even though Whites are not a minority(yet) in the US, they are a small minority worldwide.



:rolleyes:

Oh the humanity!

[red_dragon60]

Damn pikeys.

[monstro]

Also, how do you know she's not a Gypsy. Do you think you can tell just by looking at her?

I've known her for two years, and we've had many conversations about ancestry. As I said, I know the girl has Polish heritage. About five months ago she said she discovered she has a Brazilian ancestor (she told me this as if I would be impressed or something). Only since yesterday have I heard anything about her being a Gypsy, which she admitted to just having found out. I think if you have to "find out" something like this, then you shouldn't claim it.

Even though Whites are not a minority(yet) in the US, they are a small minority worldwide.

They aren't a minority at my school. Nor are they underrepresented in the sciences. They aren't at the nasty end of most health disparities. They haven't been historically excluded from research opportunities. So what's your point?

Also, I question why the taxpayer funded National Institute of Health is passing out money on a racial basis.

Why? The NIH has been concerned with both racial and socio-economic disparities that exist in health care and health-related issues for awhile. One way of combating these issues is by providing support for scientists of certain backgrounds. Not only are racial minorities targeted, but people from lower economic strata. I'm sure the NIH has programs for women too. Their programs are just one way to eliminate the biases which already exist in the system.

[Barking Spider]

I've known her for two years, and we've had many conversations about ancestry. As I said, I know the girl has Polish heritage.

Many Polish people are of Gypsy ethnicity. Are you calling her a liar based on her physical appearance? Once again, Polish is a Nationality, Gypsy is an ethnicity.

They aren't a minority at my school. Nor are they underrepresented in the sciences. They aren't at the nasty end of most health disparities. They haven't been historically excluded from research opportunities. So what's your point

Maybe they're not a minority at your school(merit), maybe they're not underrepresented in the sciences(merit).Maybe they get the research opportunities(merit).

What I want to know is, why are you pissing and moaning about some person claiming a preference when you have no idea if they deserve that preference or not?

BTW, monstro. you yourself arent attending school on some "affirmative action" program are you?

[Barking Spider]

Why? The NIH has been concerned with both racial and socio-economic disparities that exist in health care and health-related issues for awhile. One way of combating these issues is by providing support for scientists of certain backgrounds. Not only are racial minorities targeted, but people from lower economic strata. I'm sure the NIH has programs for women too. Their programs are just one way to eliminate the biases which already exist in the system.

Preferences and programs for everyone but the EEEVILLL White man!

[yosemite]

There has been a grave error in one of your facts, Monstro:I hope one day she wakes up and finds herself in the body of a Gypsy, circa 1942, living in Germany (just like that Sheen guy in the Twilight Zone).I believe it was Dean Stockwell, not that "Sheen fellow", who was in the Twilight Zone you mentioned. Unless we are not thinking of the same Twilight Zone.

Just had to get that off my chest. Carry on. (Oh yeah, the girl sounds like a ninny.)

[Sublight]

Originally posted by Barking Spider


Many Polish people are of Gypsy ethnicity. Are you calling her a liar based on her physical appearance? Once again, Polish is a Nationality, Gypsy is an ethnicity.

I think monstro's calling her a liar based on all of her past behavior up until the point she discovered there was money to be made in claiming to be part of a group she didn't even know she was connected with.

Ethnicity is based on how one behaves. If she had no idea about her Gypsy ancestor until just recently, then she has no Gypsy ethnicity.

But anyway, my great-great grandma was Cherokee. Can I get a scholarship, too? ;)

[Monty]

You know, monstro; you're missing something of importance here: this woman has been denied, for one reason or another, knowledge of her heritage. She's managed to do some research and find out what her past is, where her family comes from. And because you don't understand it, you condemn her.

So, I ask...exactly who's the bitch?

[syncrolecyne]

Well...first of all the nature of "Gypsy" or Roma history and treatment means many such people hid their ancestry to avoid very real and intense discrimination...I would bet more than a few American families come from buried Roma roots (I believe actual people from this group view "Gypsy" as a slur).

Anyway, Roma people are originally from India - but over the centuries have mixed to the point that P.J. O'Rourke once wrote - when describing Albania, the epithet "Gypsy" might be used against 'anyone darker than Cindy Brady'.

Anyway, I would bet this girl is much like a lot of folks I hear of who fondly recall their Cherokee great grandmothers around college admissions time. But this leads to to question. Could a person claim "minority" status because in their land of origin they are discriminated against - even though are not part of such a group in America and legally white. For instance, the Roma, Kurds, Kosovo Albanians or Russian Jews?

This is what I think is a problem with AA, it draws the world along continental based pseudoracial boundaries - as if there are no oppressed minorities from the European continent but the elites of "Third World" countries could claim a minority status. I'd say a (real) Roma would probably have more grievances than a rich Jamaican creole....if we play the who has suffered more game.

And Barking Spider, I'd hardly call a broadly defined group that is 75 per cent (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_lang=en&ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&geo_id=D&qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1&_ts=39656193750) of the population a soon-to-be minority..unless you think like Stormfront or W.A.R. and take away all Jews, white Portuguese and Spanish speakers, Sicilians and other Italians south of Ancona, Albanians, dark Greeks, brunet Serbs, Russians with questionable eyelids, Hungarians with suspicious suntans, and then it might happen. And even if that happens - we might end up like (gasp) Hawaii! Scary huh?

[tomndebb]

Poor Vic Morrow. And to think he gave his life for that movie!

[yosemite]

Yeah, tomndebb - which Twilight Zone are we talking about here? There's the old B&W episode where Dean Stockwell (playing a hard-nosed American soldier) is suddenly transformed into a Japanese soldier in WW II and gets to see what it's like "on the other side", and therefore learns a little compassion.

And then there's the movie with Vic Morrow (where he was beheaded by the helicopter crash). I never thought director John Landis would work again after that, since two child actors were killed as well, and there were some questionable labor practices - but Hollywood has such a short memory). Anyway, I don't recall Martin Sheen (or Charlie Sheen...or Emilio Estevez, for that matter) starring in any "Twilight Zone" that would fit the storyline we are discussing here.

Ahem. Sorry. Quite a hijack, eh? ;)

[Darth Nader]

Originally posted by yosemitebabe

Ahem. Sorry. Quite a hijack, eh? ;)

Beats listening to Barking Spider's latest rant. ;)

As to the "Cherokee Great-Grandmother" thing, I don't have a cite handy, but I suspect most 3rd or 4th generation Americans could make this claim, or one similar to it.

I'm pure American-mongrel-crossbreed-freak-hybrid, and when I see "race" on a form, I mark "Pacific Islander" or its equivalent... Just another haole born in Wailuku here :p

[Heloise]

BTW, monstro. you yourself arent attending school on some "affirmative action" program are you?

Preferences and programs for everyone but the EEEVILLL White man!

Someone just proved their own point, EEEVILLL white man.

[Dead Badger]

This reminded me of Rush Limbaugh interviewing a girl on his radio show, about something stupid like "minorities are taking over the world." So this girl rants on about minorities for a while, then says something like "and I'm a minority too, so my opinion is extra important." Rush asks which minority she is a member of; there's a long pause, then she says "...well, I'm 21." I nearly die laughing. Even Rush can't reply to this. Yeesh.

[Earthworm Jim]

Originally posted by Monty
this woman has been denied, for one reason or another, knowledge of her heritage.
Hold on a second. Exactly how did you reach this conclusion? monstro's telling us a story about some one he knows personally, and you're jumping in with some bullshit about how her heritage has been 'denied'? Did you pull this out of your ass, or was it shown to you in a vision, or what?

She's managed to do some research and find out what her past is, where her family comes from. And because you don't understand it, you condemn her.
Oh, the poor persecuted thing. Bad monstro, trying to keep her down.

So if I, white as the day is long, suddenly "discover" that I've got a black ancestor, and I start groping for money under affirmative action programs, that doesn't make me a bad person, right? Don't you DENY MY HERITAGE when I go looking for money, god damn it. I haven't been discriminated against a day in my life, but some one I'm related to was 100 years ago. That's my heritage, don't condemn me just because you don't understand it. I want my money.
So, I ask...exactly who's the bitch?
Who indeed?

[pulykamell]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Oh yeah? Well, well...I'll....I'll beat you with my ciupaga!!!

Nothing to add, just a :)
(It's been years since I've heard "ciupaga" in conversation.)

[gobear]

monstro has a valid gripe here. Black folks ARE a minority in this coutnry, and not only that but, even in 2002, they still face institutionalized racism, insults, and are judged more by the color of their skin than the content of their character. For some blonde bimbo to say, "Oh, I've found a Gypsy in the woodpile, tiem to cash in, ka-ching!" is not only a distortion of Affirmaticve Action initiatives, it's a big ol' slap in the face to Americans who face true second-class citizenship every day of their lives.

RE: the "Cherokee great-grandmother" thing. I'm 3/8 Choctaw (3 full-blood Choctaw great grandparents and 5 white great grandparents), and my dad was raised on the rez in Oklahoma. Yet, because my dad's family disowned him when he married my mom (that's right, Indians can be racists, too), I have had no connection with his family, and I have never tried to "cash in" on having First Nation genes. I think of myself as white, or to be more accurate, ecru.

[december]

gobear, you are clearly a special person. My recommendation is to go with the flow on this. Two reasons:

-- Most people see themselves as uniquely disadvantaged.
-- Most people will take advantage of an opportunity.

It is human nature to see one's self as faced with special disadvantages. E.g., I'm Jew in a gentile industry. My wife is an older professor competing against younger professors in her department. My niece suffers from MS. My nephew has bi-polar disorder. (manic-depressive) Etc.

Obviously this "gypsy" woman is underserving of special assistance, but this sort of aid that it often misses its targets. Most people will take money offered to them.

There't no payoff to you for getting upset at human nature.

[Monty]

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
Hold on a second. Exactly how did you reach this conclusion? monstro's telling us a story about some one he knows personally, and you're jumping in with some bullshit about how her heritage has been 'denied'? Did you pull this out of your ass, or was it shown to you in a vision, or what?

No, you illiterate. I clearly typed "this woman has been denied, for one reason or another, knowledge of her heritage." For those of us blessed with the ability to both read and comprehend what we read, that shows that the woman had no knowledge of her Roma roots prior to doing some research. That shows that someone else had not told her what those roots were and thus she was denied. I made no speculation as to what the reason for such denial to her was. Others in this thread have indicated at least one possible reason.

Oh, the poor persecuted thing. Bad monstro, trying to keep her down.

No, Bad Monstro, and Bad You, for taking the woman to task for discovering her roots.

So if I, white as the day is long, suddenly "discover" that I've got a black ancestor, and I start groping for money under affirmative action programs, that doesn't make me a bad person, right? Don't you DENY MY HERITAGE when I go looking for money, god damn it. I haven't been discriminated against a day in my life, but some one I'm related to was 100 years ago. That's my heritage, don't condemn me just because you don't understand it. I want my money.

Are you illiterate or just stupid? Look at my post prior to the one you decide to reinterpret into whatever version of insanity you call thought, but this time use the real version of thought and you'll see what I said.

Who indeed?

Apparently both monstro and you, bitch.

[drillrod]

Frankly, I think Monty has a valid gripe.
My father is 100% Puerto Rican. Born and raised on the island until he turned 19 and moved to Pennsylvania, where he met Mom and had young drillrod and my sibs.
I take after Mom, I'm a white boy with light brown hair (nearly blonde at times) and very blue eyes. I get asked "Where'd you get you get a name like Rodriguez?" about once a week or so. Although I spent my whole life around latinos, I've never really considered myself latino. Of hispanic heritage, yes. Hispanic myself? Not really.
I'm a white boy and I know it. Mind you, I certainly don't deny anyone who may be in my exact situation the right to consider themselves latino, this does not reflect my personal situation or self-image. I don't deny my heritage and am very proud of my father and his family, I simply do not particularly identify with that aspect of my heritage.
I'm in my second marriage now, both times to women even whiter than me and I have a son from each marriage.
I don't consider my sons to be hispanic and I don't think that they do either.
Several times in my life, I have seen my father treated differently because of his race, and frankly it's always ticked me off, but I have never believed myself to have been the subject of any discrimination.
Well, maybe the last time I was in Puerto Rico and got told an awful lot of times that I wasn't a real Puerto Rican. Puerto Gringo, maybe, but not Puerto Rican.
Anyway back to the point. I would consider it to be at the least disingenuous, bordering on dishonest for either of my boys to try to profit financially from their Grandfather's race and situation when they themselves have never experienced that situation themselves.
Monty IMHO the girl should be ashamed.

[monstro]

this woman has been denied, for one reason or another, knowledge of her heritage.

"I don't think so!" says Homey the Clown.

I discovered that I have a Irish ancestor about six years ago when my sister was doing genealogical research. I hadn't been denied anything. It's just that it's impossible to know who all of our ancestors were. It's interesting to stumble across different types of people in your lineage, but you shouldn't try to profit off of these tenous relations.

Preferences and programs for everyone but the EEEVILLL White man!

Not true. If the white man is poor or speaks Spanish, then he is eligible for certain NIH funding.

Could a person claim "minority" status because in their land of origin they are discriminated against

No, not necessarily. As I said earlier, the NIH is concerned about bridging health disparities in the US. So we're talking about Americans and groups of Americans who have been historically excluded in some way or the other, either because they fall in certain socioeconomic groups or because they belong to a stigimitzed culture/race.

The Gypsies are a stigmitized group in certain parts of the US, but whether or not they meet the criteria set by the NIH, I have no clue.

Poor Vic Morrow. And to think he gave his life for that movie!

Oops. You know all those white fellas look alike. (And I didn't know he had died during the shooting of the film. Bummer.)


BTW, monstro. you yourself arent attending school on some "affirmative action" program are you?

Why? Are you asking this because you don't think I can perform on my merits?

[Dangerosa]

Stankow,

You now know 4. Although I'm only a quarter Roma. And my grandmother doesn't like to admit it - her father was an immigrant and generally presented himself as Romanian instead of Romany to avoid discrimination. She married an Italian and learned to make great lasagna.

[gobear]

No, Bad Monstro, and Bad You, for taking the woman to task for discovering her roots.

Monty, you are hanging your adorable ass out on this one

The OP is not taking the woman to task for discovering her roots. If she had said, "I did some geneological research, and I discovered I have Romany roots," I'm sure Monstro would have been very happy for her.

But that is not what she said.

"Argh. Yesterday I step into the lab and a fellow grad student asks me if I think if someone would give her thousands of dollars for being a Gypsy.
<snip>
This blond-haired, hazel-eyed, white girl told me that she discovered that she has "Gypsy roots" (she doesn't use the word Roma or anything like that, nor does she explain what she means by "roots"). Not only does she want to claim it, she wants to benefit financially from it. She wants to find out if the program will consider "Gypsies" a minority.

She said she plans to use affirmative action entitlements, which are meant to redress real historical injustice, to rook the system. Is that fair or just? Let's say I discover my great great grandmother was black. Should I dress my white self in a dashiki, change my name to Kwame Jamaal Gobear X, and apply for minority scholarships and government loans?

This woman is not Roma, she isn't (from the OP) interested in learning much about the Roma or their culture; she just wants to get minority status for her blue-eyed, blonde self so she can cash in.

[monstro]

drillrod, I know a guy who has a similar upbringing. He's half-Cuban/ half-European, and looks just like a white guy (as many Cubans do). But he speaks Spanish (English is his first language, however) and for all of his life, he has been emersed in Cuban-American culture.

He received funding from this program, citing the fact that he is Latino. Since he is Latino, I don't have a problem here. But maybe I would feel differently if he hadn't been raised in a Cuban-American household. Who knows.

Apparently both monstro and you, bitch.

Why am I a bitch, Monty? Just because I don't like that this girl is obviously trying to work the system, to the detriment of others, I'm a bitch?

There is limited funding. If she receives a stipend, that means another person--perhaps more deserving--will not be able to get it. This pisses me off. So if she gets funding, I'm going to bow out of the program. I can teach or do other things to earn my keep. I don't see this as bitchiness. I see this as having principles and being able to discern right from wrong.

[Embra]

the woman had no knowledge of her Roma roots prior to doing some research. That shows that someone else had not told her what those roots were and thus she was denied

I don't think it shows that at all. It shows that for one reason or another she had no knowledge of those roots. I don't know all sorts of things about my ancestors, but this is not necessarily because anyone is holding out on me. I could probably find out a shedload of fascinating things by a little dogged persistence in the record office.

This girl may have been "denied" her heritage, in that her ancestors and family may have deliberately kept their ethnicity hushed up to avoid prejudice. But her lack of knowledge on its own is not proof of that; things you don't know are not necessarily being "denied" to you. Likewise, someone not telling you something doesn't necessarily equal denial.

My parents never told me that my great grandfather was court-marshalled twice, and refused a navy pension before he shot himself. I found that out when I was doing some family history research in the Publis Records Office. No-one denied me that knowledge - they just hadn't mentioned it, and the information was freely available to me once I looked.

embra

[Embra]

ahem. Just like everyone already said. Takes me years to compose these replies, I tell you...

Move along please...

[stankow]

Originally posted by Dangerosa
Stankow,

You now know 4. Although I'm only a quarter Roma. And my grandmother doesn't like to admit it - her father was an immigrant and generally presented himself as Romanian instead of Romany to avoid discrimination. She married an Italian and learned to make great lasagna.
I know where you're coming from -- my family said we were Serbian for a long time, though generally in response to the question, "Stankow -- what kind of name is that?" Because it is Serbian. Then, when Milosevic started giving Serbs a bad name, a lot of us suddenly became Albanian.

Nowadays in America, there are so many other people for morons to hate that a fair-skinned Gypsy doesn't attract a lot of attention, so I'm cool with admitting it.

One of my cousins maintains that a large percentage of Italian and Greek restaurants in the U.S. are actually run by Gypsies who are trying to pass. He also maintains that he can tell the ones that are Gypsy-run because they serve better food than "real" Italians and Greeks, but I think he's talking out of his ass on that.

Oh, and cuate -- there are plenty of us who don't mind the word, as long as it's not used as a slur per se. I for one got tired of saying "Roma ... no, not Romanian, Roma. Romany? Never heard of it, eh... Czigany? Zigeuner? Gitano? Oh, sod it. Gypsy."

[Cheesesteak]

Originally posted by monstro
There is limited funding. If she receives a stipend, that means another person--perhaps more deserving--will not be able to get it.This is the key point here, it seems obvious that this girl doesn't really need this assistance, and may very well take money away from someone who does. Unfortunately, if these grants are given based purely on ethnicity, rather than on need, this is exactly what may happen. Of course, because need is not part of the equation, we don't really know if the person denied funds was all that needy either. It's a bit of a double edged sword.

[fruitbat]

You know, monstro; you're missing something of importance here: this woman has been denied, for one reason or another, knowledge of her heritage. She's managed to do some research and find out what her past is, where her family comes from. And because you don't understand it, you condemn her.
So, I ask...exactly who's the bitch?

That would be you dear. Making the above argument takes a willfull and indeed heroic misunderstanding of Monstro's argument. She was not apparently denied knowledge of her heritage. Her heritage has had no bearing on her life to this point. She seeks to claim disadvantage for something that never crossed her mind before this day.

Trust me I applaud her for doing research into her heritage. Doing said research into her distant past only to claim that this secret Gypsy heritage has left her at a disadvantage or caused some kind of discrimination is ludicrous.

As an aside Monty you DO know it's possible to disagree with someone's point without calling them a bitch? Work harder on the reading comprehension dear and chill with the invective.

[Kal]

Well, I posted this in another thread, but in the spirit of fighting ignorance I'll post it here:

From the Patrin web journal (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/history.htm)

The Romani people have been known by many names, including Gypsies (or Gipsies), Tsigani, Tzigane, Cigano, Zigeuner, and others. Most Roma have always referred to themselves by their tribal names, or as Rom or Roma, meaning "Man" or "People." (Rom, Roma, Romani, and Romaniya should not be confused with the country of Romania, or the city of Rome. These names have separate, distinct etymological origins and are not related.) The use of Rom, Roma, Romani, or the double "r" spelling, is preferred in all official communications and legal documents. In response to the recommendations put forth by Roma associations, the Council of Europe has approved the use of "Rroma (Gypsies)" in its official documents (CLRAE Recommendation 11 - June 1995). The trend is to eliminate the use of derogatory, pejorative and offensive names, such as Gypsies, and to be given proper respect by the use of the self-appelation of Roma, or Rroma.

I'm one of those that hate the word Gypsy, I'm afraid. Can't stand the damn thing. After nearly a thousand years you'd think that people would get our name right.

Kal, a proud Romanichal.

[Kal]

Oh, Dangerosa and Stankow, at this rate we'll be able to hold a RomaDope sometime soon. :D

[Earthworm Jim]

Originally posted by Monty

Are you illiterate or just stupid? Look at my post prior to the one you decide to reinterpret into whatever version of insanity you call thought, but this time use the real version of thought and you'll see what I said.

First, you say if she's been discriminated against, perhaps she has a valid point. If not, too bad.
Now, here comes the problem. You lauch into this loony tirade about how we're bad people for taking the woman to task for discovering her roots. And yet you claim literacy. It's already been spelled out to you. I'll try to use small words so that maybe the message will get through to your head, even though it's firmly up your ass:

It's ok to discover your roots. It's not ok to claim you're a minority simply because you have an ancestor or two that was a member of that minority. Certainly not just to get some money.

The situation monstro describes is the same situation that I used as my analogy. You're just too dim to get it. You're position is simply angst-ridden wailing and gnashing of teeth which you attempt to pass off as rational discourse. So far, you've failed.

[Grim_Beaker]

I have disagreed with Monstro in the past over a variety of issues but I think she's got a valid complaint here. How far back does one need to go in their family history before a racial tie (however tenuous) is valid? Grand parent? Great grand parent?

To have this woman be classified as a gypsy when:

1. She has none of the characteristics which may identify her as a gypsy.

2. Has little or no exposure to gypsy culture.

3. There is practically no chance anyone would classify her as a gypsy.

4. She has a generations old ancestor that is gypsy.

Is ridiculous. Without question, IMHO, she shouldn't be eligible for monetary aid which requires a minority status.

However, I can't really say that I'm surprised. There will always be people who try to abuse systems (be they government, corporate, whatever). Whether it be a woman who cries abuse during a divorce proceeding in order to get their partner kicked out of the house, a man who takes advantage of a "good ol'boy" relationship to secure favors, or a poser who claims victim status in order to claim undeserved benefits they all involve unscrupulous individuals who either do not care about the consequences of their actions or are ignorant of them.

One last thing. Monstro, you said that if she is awarded financial aid based on her minority status that you would withdraw from your program. IMO this is a bad idea. Fight against the injustice if you so desire, register a complaint, or make the school newspaper aware of the situation... whatever. But don't short change your own opportunities when you see this type of injustice. Otherwise you'll be short changing yourself your entire life as unfair / unjust things happen *ALL* the time. Yes, yes, I'm Cynical with a capital C why do you ask? ;)

Grim

[monstro]

But don't short change your own opportunities when you see this type of injustice. Otherwise you'll be short changing yourself your entire life as unfair / unjust things happen *ALL* the time.

I can hear my mother saying this exact thing. She would also say, "Why are you worried about what another person is doing?" And part of me would agree with her.

But I don't know. Although I appreciate the NIH efforts, I don't need their funding in order to keep up with my education. It's not like without this fellowship, I would end up working at McDonald's for the rest of my life. It's not like the problems of the world will be solved just from me graduating with a Ph.D sponsered by the NIH.

So because it's not necessary, I would feel guilty participating in the program if I knew all that they were interested in was filling up some kind of quota. I don't want them to take an interest in me just because I'm not white. I want them to take an interest in me because they think maybe they can use me as a tool to get poor people or black people or whatever people interested in learning science, going to the doctor regularly, or being aware of environmental injustice. I want to help make science more aware of its impacts on society. I don't just want to be another person "getting while the grabbing is good". Because then I would really be no different than Miss Wannabe Minority.

[Angel of the Lord]

You know, this kind of thing pisses me off, too. Not because I'm a minority, but because I'm one of those people who A.) At times felt like she could use a government grant/scholarship, B.) Has a few minority ancestors but C.) isn't willing to use the fact that she's related to them to mooch off the system.

I have a significant percentage (well, not all THAT significant, like 10% or whatever approximately 1/8th is) Native American ancestry (Cree, if anyone's interested). I have an undetermined amount of Rom ancestry (no more than 25%, and probably a bit less than that...it's hard on that side of the family, because just about anyone who knows anything is dead, and all those who aren't are somewhere in the Balkans or Greece; we do know, however, that there were conflicting ethnicities reported between first cousins in the US when being a "gypsy" wasn't a good thing). With a twist of the imagination, I can even claim Hispanic ancestry--my great-grandma was Spanish (as in both parents came from Spain). And let's not even go into the whole French-Canadian, my-mom-couldn't-even-walk-home-with-her-best-friend-in-grade-school-because-her-friend's-mom-was-a-predjudiced-bitch thing.

Long story short, there are a few minorities I could conceivably claim. And I don't. Why? 'Cause I am essentially a white girl raised in the Chicago 'burbs. And it pisses me off to see someone who is obviously not very in touch with her ancestry (it's really not like she's living in a caravan or going down to Rio to visit relatives) using it for her own monetary advantage. Sadly, though, I can understand *why* she did it. I've been tempted myself...

[Kal]

Originally posted by Grim_Beaker
To have this woman be classified as a gypsy when:

1. She has none of the characteristics which may identify her as a gypsy.

2. Has little or no exposure to gypsy culture.

3. There is practically no chance anyone would classify her as a gypsy.

4. She has a generations old ancestor that is gypsy.



Concerning your first point: What are the characteristics that would identify her as Roma? Roma can have any hair/skin/eye colour, can be of any religion, can wear any type of clothing and can live anywhere - in any type of dwelling (the majority of the world's Roma population live in houses, the fact that they don't live in trailers or horse-drawn wagons doesn't make them any less Roma)

Your second point is very valid though, She's gonna have to display a strong knowledge of Roma culture if her claim is to hold water (or show damn good reason as to why she doesn't).

[syncrolecyne]

I suppose every ethnic categorization comes down to this.

1. What the person considers himself/herself to be...not just on some whim but on a long term basis.

2. Whether most other persons in this designated group accept the person as 'one of their own'. Of course some people might expect you to be a 100% full blooded whatever, while others will accept you as a landsman if you just know some obscure ethnic recipes and a folk song or two.

3. Whether the person is perceived by outsiders as a member of this group. This is iffy with lesser known groups given the general public's ignorance on cultural geography or the relative obscurity of some groups. An Italian-American will probably be readily identified as such, but a Macedonian-American might get taken for just about everything else.

I'm sure someone will dispute this...anyway, as far as I know, its the only thing to go by. The lady in question just recently decided to fit the first criteria for a while, and the other two are doubtful.

(This girl must have watched the episode of "Norm", where Norm McDonald rediscovers his 'proud gypsy heritage' just in time to keep his job by appealing to his boss as a 'minority' - I'm ashamed to admit I remember that show).

I live close to an army base in a border town. So many of the kids I grew up with - as well as myself (one of the few Dutch/German-Mexican guys with Lebanese cousins this side of Merida) - would be hard pressed to choose from one of the five or so EEOC categories.

[Dragonblink]

I too am part Native American to a small degree; my great-grandmother was (I'm guessing) one quarter Algonquin, and was a medicine woman for a number of years. I too thought "Hmm, there's scholarships I can get with that ..."

Then I thought about the poverty-stricken conditions that many Native Americans face on reservations, and I decided that there are many many people with Native American ancestry that could use the money far more than some chick raised in a nice suburb of LA. It's not that I am out of touch with my heritage, it's just that I refuse to use it to get money that others need more than I do.

[Godfrey Daniels]

Monstro, while I respect your reasoning for possibly pulling out of the program, I would hope that someone of your obvious intellect would refuse to let a stupid system cause you to deny yourself anything that might be of benefit to you. You've most certainly survived more difficult situations. Because someone who is undeserving may succeed in manipulating the program shouldn't mean that those who are deserving should jump ship. That said, it wouldn't hurt for you to also make your opinion known, would it?

[PhiloVance]

Hey, I used to be a smoker, they are a minority, can I get money too? :D



Seriously, monstro, I admire you. The woman is a jerk (and she'd probably be kicked off the SDMB, if she were a member). Being of the older persuasion, I am somewhat cynical, but I can see there are still people of integrity in this world.

Bravo.:cool:

[Monty]

gobear:

You're, once again, incorrect.

Monstro's response was so lame it's not even worth a retort; but, perhaps, a grimace that anyone could actually come to those conclusions/assertions even with a functioning brain.

[Grim_Beaker]

Concerning your first point: What are the characteristics that would identify her as Roma? Roma can have any hair/skin/eye colour, can be of any religion, can wear any type of clothing and can live anywhere - in any type of dwelling (the majority of the world's Roma population live in houses, the fact that they don't live in trailers or horse-drawn wagons doesn't make them any less Roma)

When writing my first point I wasn't thinking specifically about Roma. I was thinking more along the lines of what it would take for a person to be classified as a minority (i.e. a black person in America would still be considered a minority by reason of their physical characteristics regardless of their familiarity (or lack thereof) with any culture). Therefore point 1 is applicable to certain minorities and not others (the Roma falling in the latter category). My apologies on a less than ideally expressed viewpoint.

Grim

[monstro]

Monstro's response was so lame it's not even worth a retort; but, perhaps, a grimace that anyone could actually come to those conclusions/assertions even with a functioning brain.

Excuse me, Monty, but would you mind posting the lame response you're talking about?

The only lame thing I remember is you calling me a bitch. I have a few choice words for you too, if you make me go there.

[mswas]

Does this seem like Monstro is trying to paint this as a white person downplaying his "plight" as a minority? As long as minorities play into this whole "we're poor helpless victims, and need to be coddled as such" (you may word it more positively if you like) then they will always be treated as such. I know a lot of black folk that are sick and tired of seeing other black folk playing into this whole thing. Like my friend who I shared an office with for a while, who gets made fun of by his peers in his hometown because he has a philosophy degree and a good job, he's giving into the "white man". While this may be reserved for the stupider element of a subgroup. The smarter finds out ways to get every institution to walk on their tippy toes when it regards their black heritage. I'm sorry to inform you bucko but Hispanics and Blacks were not the ONLY minorities to be stepped on. The Irish had a hell of a time at one point, and I am sure you would consider them "white" in fact what they went through at one point is definitely far worse than what you are going through now.

I grew up in New Mexico and I saw the Mexican MAJORITY all too often dictating policy as a minority voting block, so they got state funds as MINORITIES when in fact they were the majority. New Mexico is basically cut up in three groups Hispanic, Native American, Everyone Else. White people are poor just like black people, there are lot's of white people who CANNOT afford to go to Rutgers, who went to school in poor areas of this country, like New Mexico and got a shoddy education. In fact, I think, accounting for the 45% drop out rate, of the remaining kids in my graduating class, I am one of the only people that actually left my hometown, let alone my home state. I hate to break it to you "minorities" but to the white people living in El Cerro Mission New Mexico (Little Juarez as it's lovingly referred to.), they are no more socially advantaged than a person who comes from Harlem. In fact I see more of a chance for a black kid from Harlem. (I live next to harlem now)

So please, let's end all this minority bullshit. while this girl is most likely full of shit, if she does have Roma heritage she qualifies as a minority far more than you do.

Erek

[stankow]

Originally posted by mswas
So please, let's end all this minority bullshit. while this girl is most likely full of shit, if she does have Roma heritage she qualifies as a minority far more than you do.
Speaking as one who has Roma heritage (in deference to Kal, I'll try not to use the G-word here on SDMB anymore), I have to say "bullshit" to your "bullshit."

I am white as rice. My father, who is a full-blooded Roma, is occasionally mistaken for Jewish, but only because of his hair. My grandfather called himself "The only gentile furrier in Chicago" (not on his business cards or anything, but still). No one bearing my last name has ever been discriminated against in America based on our ethnicity. There are, however, people who cannot say that, some of them Roma and many more of them not. For someone to claim their Roma descent so they can get a scholarship intended to redress discrimination is WRONG. For them to claim "I'm a minority, because one of my grandparents was Roma" is WRONG.

Yes, yes -- everybody's a minority somewhere, and everybody's been oppressed by someone else. But let's look beyond the word and see what the program that Monstro was talking about is intended to redress. Not the simple fact of "being a minority," but the historical and not-so-historical discrimination in mainstream American society faced by those who fall into the classical American "minority" categories.

[gobear]

gobear:

You're, once again, incorrect

Well, I quoted the relevant passages, and I feel comfortable that my interpretation is correct.

And, no, I am correct; your ass is adorable, and I'm taking no back talk on this matter.

You are being exceptionally cranky today, What you need is a nice glass of lemonade and a foot massage; it'll turn that frown upside down.

[Kal]

Nais tuke Stankow :) I know you tired of trying to get the whole Roma=Gypsy thing into people's skulls - but this is the SDMB! We have a duty to fight ignorance.

[matt_mcl]

*sigh*

To review:

I am a Great Canadian Mongrel. I have got Scottish, Irish, English, Korean, German, Jewish, and First Nations blood that I know of.

To look at, I am (as Kate Clinton would put it) a giant white person. (Actually, I'm mostly pink.) I know little about and do not typically associate myself with much of my blood heritage except when it's relevant to my physical characteristics. I do not practice any particular ethnic culture except anglophone Canadian.

I have never been discriminated against on the basis of my race. To turn around and claim reparations and equilibrations that are made on the basis of oppression would be dishonest of me.

I have been discriminated against/harassed on the basis of my sexual orientation. I therefore take advantage of benefits that might be offered to me on that basis. But since I have the (unfair) advantage that race is not an issue for me (I am not "racialized," as they say), I don't go for any benefits that are trying to make up for it.

[monstro]

while this girl is most likely full of shit, if she does have Roma heritage she qualifies as a minority far more than you do.

As I said, she doesn't have Roma heritage. She has Roma "blood". There is a difference, buddy.

Never once have I played the "more oppressed than thou" card (though I don't know how you can say that Gypsies in the US are more of a minority than black Americans). Besides a few mean things that people have said me in the past, I have never been discrimated against or demeaned in the same way that my parents or my grandparents have. And I'm not into self-pity or victimization either. If I were, I doubt I would have gotten as far as I have.

But I do realize that I have been very lucky. Because I've been lucky, I feel a certain obligation to those who have been unlucky. The best victories are the ones you can share.

By taking this fellowship money, I unofficially agree to give back to my community somehow as an agent of science. Otherwise, the program is useless. I don't think the girl in question views the program in the way it is intended to be viewed. She just sees this as a free lunch, not as something with much more noble, far-reaching goals. She thinks being a minority is like being in some special club that you can put on your CV, but at the end of the day you can sit back and smile because you're still "white". How wonderfully comfortable that must be.

[Monty]

Dimmit, gobear. It's the pit. What're you doing making me laugh?

[syncrolecyne]

Originally posted by mswas

I grew up in New Mexico and I saw the Mexican MAJORITY all too often dictating policy as a minority voting block, so they got state funds as MINORITIES when in fact they were the majority. New Mexico is basically cut up in three groups Hispanic, Native American, Everyone Else....

Erek

New Mexico hasn't had a Hispanic majority since around the turn of the last century...despite what many people there may think, the facts (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&geo_id=04000US35&qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1) are otherwise. For that statement to be true, either you are very old -or your mindset is. And the last time I checked, NM had a decidedly white governor, an Italian-American senator and an Anglo-American senator...and all three congresspeople are non-Hispanic whites. Shit if New Mexico DID have a Hispanic majority, your claim that they somehow dominate the state would really be ridiculous in that light. In fact New Mexico and Arizona were not admitted as a states until 1912, decades after less populated states as Wyoming, North and South Dakota, Montana, and so on...you wanna know why?

I'm starting to think some people get double or triple vision when 'race' is involved, and cry "were outnumbered, they are wiping us outhi!" when the ratio gets down to 3/1 or 2/1.

Anyway, I'm not a defender of set-asides at all, but minority status is based on nationwide numbers not those for a particular state, county, or city anyway.

[mswas]

I was referring to the fact that Roma were very close to wiped out, whereas if African Americans are, then I don't know where every second person I see on the street got their skin color from.

I think publically funded minority reparations are an evil. However, I am all for privately funded ones. But in that case you should be able to have a private fund for anything you want, even if that is "White Anglo Males with successful father's and a penis size of at least 8 inches."

I'd just like to point out that I never oppressed you, therefore my tax money shouldn't be going to pay for your schooling based upon the fact that you were oppressed, or your parents were oppressed. (I don't know what kind of fund she was trying to draw from however.) However I don't have any problem with you receiving some of my tax money for being an exceptional scientist.

Something I don't hear too often from the black community (just cuz I'm not hearing it doesn't mean it's not being said) is that there have been some REALLY major victories. I think that acknowledging that would be very productive.

Erek

[mswas]

So my facts were off. Thanks for setting me straight.

Erek

[monstro]

I think publically funded minority reparations are an evil.

These are not reparations, asshole. Nor are they set-asides.

And why is this program evil, pray tell? I can think of a lot of things that are evil, but giving money to students committed to uplifting impoverished communities doesn't register as one of them.

[Barking Spider]

"Minority" set-asides certainly aren't "evil. They are, however, unfair to those who didn't have the built in advantage of being automaticly able to claim certain government benefits because they were born a certain race.

Why can't "minorities" compete just like everyone else?

[matt_mcl]

[The] contention that today's rich person is simply the winner of a "race that is open for anyone to enter" takes no account of inheritance or how we are equipped as we enter that race. It doesn't acknowledge that some approach the starting line in streamlined Lycra suits and track shoes, with full knowledge of the rules, a determined attitude and belief in their own abilities, not to mention a close friendship with those setting the rules and choosing the winner. Others, hungry from not having had a meal that day, barely make it to the starting line, don't really understand the purpose of the race or its rules, lack self-confidence and are full of hostility, and are convinced that those officials at the side of the track are actually cops waiting to bust them.

- Linda McQuaig, All You Can Eat

[Barking Spider]

The] contention that today's rich person is simply the winner of a "race that is open for anyone to enter" takes no account of inheritance or how we are equipped as we enter that race. It doesn't acknowledge that some approach the starting line in streamlined Lycra suits and track shoes, with full knowledge of the rules, a determined attitude and belief in their own abilities, not to mention a close friendship with those setting the rules and choosing the winner. Others, hungry from not having had a meal that day, barely make it to the starting line, don't really understand the purpose of the race or its rules, lack self-confidence and are full of hostility, and are convinced that those officials at the side of the track are actually cops waiting to bust them.


- Linda McQuaig, All You Can Eat.


Pretty paternalistic. I believe that if there are grants to go around, that everyone should compete for them. For government to hand them out to certain favored groups is certainly discrimination, if not racism.

[monstro]

I believe that if there are grants to go around, that everyone should compete for them.

The NIH has many many grants that everyone can go after. Some grants are geared towards people in particular research areas. Other grants are geared towards people of certain backgrounds, with abilities and experiences that extend beyond their scientific expertise. Where you get this idea that this one particular program in the OP is the be-all, end-all of all research funding is beyond me.

[gobear]

Pretty paternalistic. I believe that if there are grants to go around, that everyone should compete for them. For government to hand them out to certain favored groups is certainly discrimination, if not racism.

Barking Spider, I assume you must be hard of hearing, 'cos sound most definitely doesn't travel through a vacuum.

If you are are so concerned about racism, then I'm sure you are aware of the discrimination blacks, Jews, women, and Latinos faced in this nation until the 1960s. Blacks were routinely excluded from the best schools, Jews were only admitted in small numbers and ecluded entirely from many schools, and women had to struggle to be admitted to professional programs. It was a white man's paradise. Now that there are attempts to redress historical injustice, you decide it's wrong to factor race as a criterion for financial aid.

Dude, you're a racist. It's evident from your entire posting history. You don't give a shit about fairness or discrimination in theory, you just hate seeing folks who aren't white and male get a piece of the pie.

You desperately need to read up on the history of racism in this country because your posts reek of the densest, rankest kind of retrograde ignorance.

What the fuck, even if you did have the right info, it probably wouldn't help because you're stupid. Not just unintelligent or intellectually deprived--no, you're the willful, ain't-gonna-listen, dumb-right-down-to-the-bone kind of ignoramus that makes Dan Quayle look like Bertrand freakin' Russell.

Now fuck right off, would you? Thanks, ever so.

[Barking Spider]

Gobear, I see you included Latinos in those who were "oppressed" by the "evil" White man."

Being that "Latinos were only about 2 percentage of this countries population until the mid sixties, and the Civil Rights act was passed in '64, I would venture to say that the vast majority of "latinos" have never suffered under any legal discrimination. Since that is so, why are included under any sort of "preference" program"

Also, I notice you said "blacks, jews, women, and latinos". Mmmmm... everyone but White men. Are you trying to suggest White men cause all or most of the racial or sexual discrimination in this country? I have noticed in my experiences that Blacks tend to be much more racist than Whites. Latinos tend to be more racist than Whites toward Blacks.

I also notice that you lump women together with racial minorities. Are you trying to suggest that White women have more in common with some Black than with their White fathers, husbands, or children?

[Barking Spider]

BTW, dipshit, my kids are half "latino". If they were to apply for a NIH grant saying they were "latino", they would have a definate advantage over any White person who did the same application, but claimed to be White.

I can't believe a level playing field represents "discrimination" and racism to you people.

[Barking Spider]

Thats why I'm very tempted to tell my very White looking, half Latino children to use their mothers maiden name on all government forms. If the government wants to discriminate against Whites, in favor of someone with a Spanish surname, then my kids may as well take advantage of it.

[gobear]

Also, I notice you said "blacks, jews, women, and latinos". Mmmmm... everyone but White men. Are you trying to suggest White men cause all or most of the racial or sexual discrimination in this country? I have noticed in my experiences that Blacks tend to be much more racist than Whites. Latinos tend to be more racist than Whites toward Blacks.

Ah, yes, all those poor white guys getting pulled over by black cops. All those white men being denied jobs by black managers and CEOs. All those white guys living in ghettos owned by rich black slumlords. Such a pity.


Gobear, I see you included Latinos in those who were "oppressed" by the "evil" White man."

I never used the words ":opressed" or "evil white man." I'm no self-hating liberal. I'm just another white guy who isn't so blinded by racism to see that this country affords more advantage to white guys than to any other sector of the population. Look at who owns the money and power in the US. Look at the composition of the Congress, the presidents, the supreme court.

Were white men lynched by black mobs? Were white guys kidnapped in Europe and enslaved by black masters?

How many women were admitted to the professions before the 1960s? How easy was it for women to hold jobs, to earn the same money for the same job? Hell, women didn't even get the vote until 1920.

You are a fucking idiot.

[Barking Spider]

Ah, yes, all those poor white guys getting pulled over by black cops. All those white men being denied jobs by black managers and CEOs. All those white guys living in ghettos owned by rich black slumlords. Such a pity.


Those Blacks are being pulled over because they committed traffic violations. There was a study came out a couple months ago in N.J which said that Blacks commit traffic violations at a higher rate than Whites. No profiling.

Racial discrimination in hiring is also illegal, as you should know. Not that it doesnt still happen. I myself wasn't hired because of my race, but I can't prove it, even though the manager was Black, as were most of his employees.

Also, I don't know who owns most slums. Probably the FedGov, if I were to guess.

I never used the words "pressed" or "evil white man." I'm no self-hating liberal. I'm just another white guy who isn't so blinded by racism to see that this country affords more advantage to white guys than to any other sector of the population. Look at who owns the money and power in the US. Look at the composition of the Congress, the presidents, the supreme court.

Think about who built this country, and you'll find you'r answer.


Were white men lynched by black mobs? Were white guys kidnapped in Europe and enslaved by black masters?

Most lynchings were of White men by White men. Those lynchings of Black men in the South were primarily by registered Democrat White men.

Also, refering to your claim that Whites kidnapped Blacks in Africa for slavery purposes, this is almost unheard of.

Many African slaves were captured by their fellow Africans, and sold into slavery by their fellow Africans to Arab slave traders.

Many, if not most African slaves, were already working as slaves to their African slave masters, when they were sold to the Arab slave traders.

I suggest you read a history book, preferably printed before the 1960s, if you want to read the truth of the African slave trade.


How many women were admitted to the professions before the 1960s? How easy was it for women to hold jobs, to earn the same money for the same job? Hell, women didn't even get the vote until 1920.

Lots of women were admitted to the professions. If a qualified woman wasn't admitted, then I would say it was the University's loss.

Also, lots of States allowed women to vote prior to 1920. You people run around acting like women couldnt even vote before the amendment. The fact is, many, if not most States allowed women to vote.

My point is, Monsto pisses and moans because a White colleague of hers suggests that she may be a Gypsy and entitled to a preference.

My reaction is: Why is there such a thing as a preference? Shouldn't grants be based on merit?

[gobear]

I suggest you read a history book, preferably printed before the 1960s, if you want to read the truth of the African slave trade.

Odd, I've read many history books, in fact I have a university degree in the subject, yet I have never before been confronted by your, er, "facts." Curse my deficient education.

[Barking Spider]

You mean to tell me that your University education taught you that Whites "kidnapped" Blacks from Africa?

If so, you'd better go ask for your money back.

[monstro]

My reaction is: Why is there such a thing as a preference? Shouldn't grants be based on merit?

The ultimate question is why are there certain groups that are grossly underrepresented in the scientific arena?

Why are educational opportunities so limited?

What accounts for the disparaties in certain health-related issues?

Why are some people encouraged to go into scientific areas and others are not encouraged to do so?

When science doesn't reflect the society it serves, what biases enter into it?

What can we do to ensure these biases don't occur?

How can we get more minorities interested in science? And why do we think this is a good/bad thing?

Why isn't the playing field even? What can we do to speed up that day when we can say it's even?

Until we get answers to these questions, I think we'll be able to answer yours.

BTW, I have worked for the grant money I receive. I had to write a proposal to receive my funding, including my grades, standardized test scores, recommendation letters, and a listing of my publications. This wasn't a hand-out at all; I received funding based on merit as well as my minority status. So you don't have to worry about us incompetent black folks messing up all the fancy-schmancy scientific equipment.

[gobear]

You mean to tell me that your University education taught you that Whites "kidnapped" Blacks from Africa?

If so, you'd better go ask for your money back

Ever heard of the Triangle Trade, fuckface?

[Barking Spider]

To all your questions: Please read the book The Bell Curve. Theres a reason why certain racial groups score higher than others. And it's not "racism".



So you admit that you got a taxpayer grant based on your racial status. And you wonder wonder why some people might put you down. In fact, you call one of your co-students a Bitch because she might want to claim a preference as you have.

[monstro]

To all your questions: Please read the book The Bell Curve.

You aren't a scientist, are you? Telling someone to go read "The Bell Curve" for scientific information is like telling someone to go read the funnypages for updates on current events.

And you citing The Bell Curve just proves that you're a racist and that despite your high post count, the SDMB has failed to wipe out your ignorance.

And you wonder wonder why some people might put you down.

And why have they put you down, Barking Spider?

In fact, you call one of your co-students a Bitch because she might want to claim a preference as you have.

No, I'm calling her a bitch because she wants to be a minority only so she can get money. She's lying so she can get money. She's unfairly playing on the history of a group's oppression SO SHE CAN GET YOUR MONEY.

She sniffs her nose at the black residents that live around our school and yet she wants to claim she's "just like them" when it might benefit her. If you can't figure out why this would infuriate someone, then you have no common sense.

[Caffeine.addict]

You mean to tell me that your University education taught you that Whites "kidnapped" Blacks from Africa?


Of course, they all volunteered to come here. "ooh pick me, I want to become someone else's property. :rolleyes:

[Barking Spider]

As a college student, albeit an "affirmative action" college student, can you point out where the Bell Curve is in error?

There has never been an intelligence test which said Blacks were equal in intelligence to Whites. Can you point to where the Bell Curve is in error?

And you citing The Bell Curve just proves that you're a racist and that despite your high post count, the SDMB has failed to wipe out your ignorance.

How does me citing the Bell Curve prove I'm a racist? I honestly don''t believe any race is inherently superior to another. All the Bell Curve does is suggest that intelligence is hereditery.

[celestina]

Barking Spider, I don't know what crawled up your ass, bu t I blievie it's fucking whit your prain as all the stuff that's come out of your ass just sound s like a pile of shit. Everywhere you go you just take pleasure it seem sin insulting folks, adn taht's a cryaing shames. how can you cite the _Bell Curve_ as any kind of scholarly source, or even look to IQ tests as anyh sign of an accurate wayu to measure intelligence. Oh, my head hurts from reading your posts. I've got to go lay down. Once I sober up, I'll come back and cuss you out rporper, unless Collounsbury gets here first. Right now, I think I'll go throw up. ...............

[Barking Spider]

You know what "crawled up my ass"?

Monstro is an admitted recipient of a racist "affirmative action" plan.

She comes on the SD and calls her co-worker a Bitch because her co-worker wants to claim the same thing. Monsto decides that she can tell Gypsys stricty by their appearance.

Monsto then starts pissing and moaning because Blacks arent proportionatly represented in the "Sciences". She clams that Blacks are somehow discriminated against, and that is the reason why they are not proportionataly represented in the higher Universitys.


As a man who has read and understood the Bell Curve, all her arguments seem like so much whining and malarky.

Here she is, as a person who has taken advantage of a racist "affirmative action " program, bitches and moans because a White person might want to do the same thing. I ask her, How many more deserving Whites were put on the back burner because some liberal school board decided to admit a less deserving Monstro?

[Hazel]

Originally posted by Monty
You know, monstro; you're missing something of importance here: this woman has been denied, for one reason or another, knowledge of her heritage. She's managed to do some research and find out what her past is, where her family comes from. And because you don't understand it, you condemn her.

So, I ask...exactly who's the bitch?

I think you're missing the point, Monty. It's all very well to learn about one's heritage. If that's all this woman were doing, she'd just say, "Wow, turns out I have Gypsy ancestry. Cool! I want to learn more about this." That would be fine.

What she's doing isn't fine. As others in this thread have said:

“To me, if you have to ‘discover’ your kinship to a group, then you have no business claiming that you are a member of this group...”

“I think if you have to ‘find out’ something like this, then you shouldn't claim it.”

“If she had no idea about her Gypsy ancestor until just recently, then she has no Gypsy ethnicity.”

In the US, this crops up most frequently in regard to people who, as teens or adults, are told that they have some small fraction of Native American culture, and immediately think, "Wow, I wonder what benefits I can get!"

Whatever scholarships, benefits, or other perks are available to Native Americans, Gypsies, or Whatevers should be reserved for people whoreally are members of the discriminated-against group; that is, people who grew up in the culture -- people who, throughout their lives, actually faced discrimination. Not people who grew up as previledged members of the dominent society.

[Barking Spider]

Whatever scholarships, benefits, or other perks are available to Native Americans, Gypsies, or Whatevers should be reserved for people whoreally are members of the discriminated-against group; that is, people who grew up in the culture -- people who, throughout their lives, actually faced discrimination. Not people who grew up as previledged members of the dominent society


Great! Since the University system has been actively discriminating against White and Asian students for at least the last 25 years, does that mean we can finally go to the head of the line?

[Barking Spider]

The Barking Spider sings, at the top of his lungs:

Oh, why can't "minorities"compete, like everyone else?

Why can't minorities compete?

Just like any other normal person, I say,

Why can't "minorities" compete?

[tomndebb]

There was a study came out a couple months ago in N.J which said that Blacks commit traffic violations at a higher rate than Whites. No. There was one study that has been challenged on its flawed protocols that determined that within one specific set of speed limits on one highway system blacks were found to exceed the limit by 15% more than whites. The study made no mention of the routinely reported situation of a black professional being followed through his own neighborhood and being pulled over because the cop didn't think he "looked like he belonged there."
Most lynchings were of White men by White men. Those lynchings of Black men in the South were primarily by registered Democrat White men.One third of all lynchings in this country have been of white men by white men. The remaining two thirds have been of black men by white men. Around 60% of the white men lynched, were lynched in the "Old West" (usually horse thieves and gamblers) making the numbers staggeringly more horriffic toward blacks.
Also, refering to your claim that Whites kidnapped Blacks in Africa for slavery purposes, this is almost unheard of.

Many African slaves were captured by their fellow Africans, and sold into slavery by their fellow Africans to Arab slave traders.

Many, if not most African slaves, were already working as slaves to their African slave masters, when they were sold to the Arab slave traders. True (sort of).
True.
Absolutely false.

The slavery that existed in Africa prior to the chattel slavery that was created and introduced by whites from Europe and the Mid-East was different in character than chattel slavery. The introduction of the idea of slaves as a commodity changed slavery in Africa and created the demand for slaves that had never existed. Whereas slavery had initially been an occasional and incidental part of tribal warfare, it became, under the impetus of white demands for labor, a new industry in which wars were begun for the sole purpose of taking slaves.
Also, lots of States allowed women to vote prior to 1920. You people run around acting like women couldnt even vote before the amendment. The fact is, many, if not most States allowed women to vote.Only seven out of forty-eight states (all of them in the mostly underpopulated West) had allowed women to vote before 1920.
How does me citing the Bell Curve prove I'm a racist? I honestly don''t believe any race is inherently superior to another. All the Bell Curve does is suggest that intelligence is hereditery.The Bell Curve has been exposed in numerous scientific journals as having used selective data, interpreted badly, with serious flaws in the analysis to deliberately achieve a predetermined goal of making a claim for racial intelligence levels that cannot be supported by the actual data. The fact that the book was published with a deliberate attempt to avoid any peer review indicates the claerly dishonest intentions of the authors. This information has been publicly available for a number of years (and has been posted on the SDMB on several occasions). The Bell Curve was simply unsupportable trash with no legitimate claim to science. One brief history of The Bell Curve (http://slate.msn.com/default.aspx?id=2416) (At the bottom of the article are links to five specific cases where the authors fudged data or lied to make their points.)

Given the error rates in your recent posts, I would suggest that you are really not posting in the spirit of The Straight Dope©.

[monstro]

Since I'm black and an AA receipient, I'm obviously not able to engage on the same level of discourse as you, Barking Spider. Why don't all of us black folks just shut up and deal with the fact that we're stupid compared to the white man and should never aspire to anything more than a menial worker?

Of course, this particular black person knows "good" science from "bad" science, and thus can read critically through the BS in "The Bell Curve" (But even third graders can read critically, so that's not much of an accomplishment). As someone who has been on the board, surely Barking Spider knows the criticisms of the particular "research" cited in the book. And if not, he can do a simple google search to find out what's wrong with it. My being black makes me too stupid to list all the reasons why it's a bunch of racist shit. You have to forgive me for being so stupid compared to you, Barking Spider.


all her arguments seem like so much whining and malarky.

Since I'm so stupid, I can't seem to distinguish my "whining and malarky" from yours. In fact, it seems to me that you've done a lot more whining and malarky-spewing than I have on the board. But what do I know? I've inherited those intellectually inferior genes from all those black people that have come before me. I should be working at McDonald's, where I don't have to worry about getting into all those wonderful white people's ways. I don't even know how I'm able to work the microscope at school. The microscope must be a special one just for Affirmative Action beneficiaries.

Oops. Did I spell "beneficiaries" right? Probably not. They probably shouldn't have let me go to Georgia Tech because I can't spell. I probably shouldn't have graduated with honors. All those professors probably felt sorry for my ugly nappy headed self and just gave me As to assuage their white guilt. I don't deserve any of the awards I have won. My publications don't mean zilch. I don't deserve a Ph.D. Like I said, I should probably be working at McDonald's. Since I'm good with the book-learnin', maybe they'll put me on the cash register machine with all those purty buttons. Maybe I won't even have to wear a hair net. But I'm too stupid to know about hair nets, so what the hell am I talking about?

I'll give back the money the gubmit has given me so they can give it to people like Barking Spider, who love black people so much and won't talk down to them condescendingly as he studies their health problems or raises their attention to environmental issues in their communities. He won't think they're stupid. He won't think they all deserve to be arrested on the Turnpike. He won't think they stink or that they're lazy. He'll serve as a good role model for all those black kids who only see themselves as ball players and rap artists and somebody's baby's mama. And he and people like him will bridge all the disparities that exist in this society, because he knows that doing so is inherently a good thing Because Barking Spider loves the everyone, especially them blacks. Yes, he does.

Well, let me go back to shucking' and jivin'. I have a pan of fried chicken on the stove that needs tendin' to.

Lawhamercy. I see another Barking Spider bit-o-wisdom:

Why can't "minorities" compete?

I know! I know! Because we're stupid, right? Do I get a gold star? Yippeee!

[tomndebb]

Oh, why can't "minorities"compete, like everyone else? Given a level p;aying field, they can. Education begets education. Throughout most of this country's history, it ws the children of the educated who pursued education, with a small trickle of "new blood" coming in at each generation. The one exception to this trend was the post-WWII influx of college entrants promoted by the GI Bill and the attendant promotion of college as a "good thing." At that time, the number of college educated people expanded rapidly into groups who had not previously begun to avail themselves of that opportunity. Blacks were always restrained from entering colleges (by both poverty and exclusion) and they were not included in the massive campaign to enroll more college students prompted by the GI Bill (both by not being target with pro-education advertising and by being denied entrance when they applied). So, until the late 1960s, blacks were specifically held outside the growing circle of college educated.

The general trend that college-educated parents bring up children to attend college continues, but the numbers (both raw and as a percentage) of blacks who are exposed to this expanding pool are artificially lower because of historic acts. The purpose of programs to bring in more blacks is to offset the discrimination that led to their being an artificially smaller group on campus. Similarly, the Hispanic and Vietnamese immigrants of the past 30 years arrived without the family-determined "college tradition" (and without the Post-WWII campaign to include them). The minority set-asides are an attempt to bring them all into the same tradition so that they can compete.

[gobear]

Monstro, the stupid cracker is not worth it. Don't fret yourself because some racist asshole wants to give you a hard time. You got more melanin in your skin, other folks got less. What that has to do with intelligence, kindeness, or virtue is beyond me. Skin color is one of those incidental things, like hair color.

[tomndebb]

Correction: My memory had confused the raw number 602 with the approximate 60%. In fact, the lynching numbers are:

Secessionist States:
Whites: 0,512
Blacks: 3,057
Totals: 3,569

Border States: ("Southern" is open to interpretation)
Whites: 153
Blacks: 257
Totals: 410

Other States:
Whites: 602 (Lot's of cattle rustlers, horse thieves, and gamblers)
Blacks: 127
Totals: 729

United States Totals 1882-1968 using Tuskegee Institue figures (generally deemed to be the most conservative numbers):
Whites: 1,297
Blacks: 3,446
Totals: 4,743

So as few as 39.4% of the whites were lynched in the South (usually for being "colored" sympathizers, but also for being accused of "trifling" with a woman), or as many as 51.2% (depending on how many whites in Kansas or Missouri were hung as horse thieves vs as "sympathizers").


As noted in these links:
Lynching in America: Statistics, Information, Images (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchstats.html)

Lynchings by Year (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.html)
Lynchings by State (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html)
Lynchings by Purported Reason (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/Lynchcauses.html)

And this article describes the history of lynching. (http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1979/2/79.02.04.x.html)

[KarlGrenze]

Originally posted by Barking Spider
Thats why I'm very tempted to tell my very White looking, half Latino children to use their mothers maiden name on all government forms. If the government wants to discriminate against Whites, in favor of someone with a Spanish surname, then my kids may as well take advantage of it.

I think someone else in this thread (or maybe another), said that he was half Puertorrican/half white, nonLatino. He does not live around a Hispanic culture, and neither do his children (with the same Latino surname). Because of that, he doesn't ask for anything Latino-related, and expects his kids to do the same. Why ask only for money, when you are not immersed or consider yourself part of a culture? You're only showing greed, which is an ugly trait, regardless of your ethnicity.

PD. I have distant cousins who have some of my surnames but do not know and do not share the Latino culture. I would be very pissed off if they suddenly claimed "minority" status just to help them out of a problem.

[Rilchiam]

Originally posted by Darth Nader
I'm pure American-mongrel-crossbreed-freak-hybrid, and when I see "race" on a form, I mark "Pacific Islander" or its equivalent... Just another haole born in Wailuku here :p

I don't mark race on a form.

1. They can't force you to do so.
2. Whose business is it what I am?
3. Opal, what are they doing with this info anyway? I'm hard pressed to believe it's anything good.
4. On the PSATs, I put "human". This led to some unpleasantness. On the SATs, I discreetly left it blank; no reaction.
5. Anyone see Stand and Deliver?
6. At least they stopped asking about religion.

[KarlGrenze]

No, Rilchiam, can you tell me something about Stand and Deliver?

[syncrolecyne]

To me, the big picture is "race" is such a flawed concept to begin with...why not use family income or the per-capita income of the student's high school to determine this? You would still help out a lot of minorities...but not automatically shut out European or Asian-Americans and not automatically give preference to richer minority people.

Also, as far as I know having a Hispanic surname does not automatically make you Hispanic or eligible for AA as much as having another surname excludes you from being Hispanic. A lot of non-Hispanic people have very Spanish surnames. And I have seen Italian, French, and Portuguese surnames that could be perfectly Hispanic.

I don't even think people or European Spanish origin are "Hispanic" for AA purposes either...depending on who is screening applicants.

[mswas]

Cuate kind of said what i was thinking this whole time. This is just classism that gets mislabeled racism. There is no inherent benefit in being white. Maybe there is in being white from a certain level of affluence. However as there are more white people in this country than there are minorities (thus the term minorities) there are more poor and marginalized white people than there are poor and marginalized people of any particular race. Affirmative Action is racist as it benefits you based upon race.

As for the Bell Curve, well, the only people who believe that are the ones that couldn't even claim that they were among the white people of superior intelligence, even if it were true.

I see idiocy on both sides.

Erek

[Guinastasia]

Barking Spider-why don't you just go over to [b]JanL[b]'s board and leave us alone? Because you're obviously NOT interested in fighting ignorance.

[Rilchiam]

Originally posted by monstro
So because it's not necessary, I would feel guilty participating in the program if I knew all that they were interested in was filling up some kind of quota. I don't want them to take an interest in me just because I'm not white. I want them to take an interest in me because they think maybe they can use me as a tool to get poor people or black people or whatever people interested in learning science, going to the doctor regularly, or being aware of environmental injustice. I want to help make science more aware of its impacts on society. I don't just want to be another person "getting while the grabbing is good". Because then I would really be no different than Miss Wannabe Minority.

Haven't read the entire thread; forgive me if this is redundant.

Oh, Monstro, don't drop out of the fellowship! You know you're not "getting while the grabbing is good"; what does it matter who you're associated with? A PhD from the NIH will enable you to correct this kind of foolishness. You can use this story as an example, and people will be more moved if they hear that you continued in the program anyway, for the good of others. Saying "So I quit" will just make you look like someone who turns away from an obstacle.

[Rilchiam]

Oh, and KarlGrenze: Stand and Deliver was a film with Edward James Olmos and Lou Diamond Phillips. Olmos is a math teacher at a school in the barrio. He takes his students through calculus, insisting that math is "the great equalizer" in the job market.

Their goal is the Advanced Placement Calculus Test. There's an ominous shot (I love non-dialogue shots!) of someone's pencil filling in the circle next to "Hispanic". Because 30 or so "Hispanic" students all took the exam on the same day, and all passed, many with top scores, but also made similar mistakes, the Educational Testing Service suspects fraud and sends in investigators (one is played by Andy Garcia!).

"What if thirty white kids had all made the same mistakes?"

"We would have thought that was odd..."

"But they wouldn't have sent you guys!"

That's one reason (not the only) that I don't mark race on a form.

[KarlGrenze]

Ok, thanks Rilchiam!

[TwistofFate]

karlGrense,

Stand and deliver was, IIRC, about an inner city LA school where one teacher got his (mostly) Latino students to sit SAT's. They all got extremely good marks, but the examination board was convinced that they had cheated somehow, because they were Latino.
They were forced to resit the exams, and got the same results.

it was based on a true story.

[TwistofFate]

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0094027

[Rilchiam]

Uh...Twisty...was there something wrong with the description I gave? Especially since I correctly identified the exam as AP Calculus? ;)

[celestina]

Barking Spider said:

“You know what "crawled up my ass"?

Monstro is an admitted recipient of a racist "affirmative action" plan.”

:confused: How is “affirmative action” “racist?” :mad: I’m sorry. I’m not going to take it on your word just because you choose to out of your limited vocabulary and even far more limited understanding of that vocabulary term to label it so. You seem to like bandying around the word “racist.” I wonder why? Are you trying to tell yourself something on a more personal level?

“She comes on the SD and calls her co-worker a Bitch because her co-worker wants to claim the same thing. Monsto decides that she can tell Gypsys stricty by their appearance.”

I believe that monstro has sufficiently explained her reasons for calling her dishonest peer a “BITCH.” You, however, are being dishonest and insulting the intelligence of anyone who reads what you post with your willful misinterpretations of the position she’s posted. I’ve read a lot of crap as well as a lot of pearls of wisdom on this board, but I just cringe whenever I encounter what you write. Either you lack basic reading comprehension skills and need to go back to elementary school and start all over again, you need to get your glasses prescription checked and updated so that you can see better, or you just didn’t bother to read what she wrote at all. You are being dismissive and disrespectful of her and of other Dopers’ intelligence in your consistent misinterpretations of what she said.

“Monsto then starts pissing and moaning because Blacks arent proportionatly represented in the "Sciences". She clams that Blacks are somehow discriminated against, and that is the reason why they are not proportionataly represented in the higher Universitys.”

[VERY BIG SIGH] I don’t know where to begin with this. Where is your proof that she’s just lying about or is incorrect in her assertion that minorities are being discriminated against and/or misrepresented in the sciences?!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: I’m sorry, but I’m not going to believe that monstro is lying just because you’ve said so. I want to see some peer-reviewed data published in scholarly journals or texts—Do you understand what I mean when I say “peer-reviewed?”—that supports your contention that minorities are not underrepresented and/or discriminated against in the sciences, particularly as the sciences relate to research and treatment of diseases like diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, mental health treatment, and so on. Before you open your trap and spew more bullshit, I want to see you present and interpret some definitive data that supports this particular position that you’ve made. Also in your analysis, I would like to see some figures on science education in elementary and secondary schools. What kinds of lab equipment and textbooks do these schools provide for students? How do these school curriculums prepare students, women and minorities in particular, to undertake science majors when they get to college? How do elementary and secondary schools demystify science fields so that students have a clear understanding of what opportunities they may find in pursuing science careers? I would love to see some statistics on how many minorities are represented in the sciences, and then please tell me why you feel that these numbers are sufficient.


“As a man who has read and understood the Bell Curve, all her arguments seem like so much whining and malarky.”

I believe tomndebb, bless his brilliant and intellectually honest heart :), has sufficiently addressed the “whining and malarkey” that is going on within the covers of The Bell Curve. It seems to me that the loudest “whining and malarkey” that occur outside of the covers of The Bell Curve stem from your mouth and from the mouths of others who share your unfounded and inaccurate opinion that blacks and other minorities are a bunch of idiots who are incapable of learning or understanding anything.

<snip> “I ask her, How many more deserving Whites were put on the back burner because some liberal school board decided to admit a less deserving Monstro?”

:rolleyes: Oh, and now you’re telepathic and you know monstro and her credentials well enough to know that she is “undeserving” of admittance to whatever graduate science program she’s in. And what are your credentials that make you so expert in deciding for her university or any other university for that matter what students and what credentials will provide the best fit for that university? How long have you served on Admissions Committees on the post-secondary level? What is your background in science?

If you cannot provide evidence other than the severely flawed and intellectually dishonest book The Bell Curve, then please SHUT THE HELL UP! I have had it with your dishonest spite.


[celestina takes her virtual paddle and whacks BS upside his thick skull. Besides the dull *thwack* nothing can be heard rattling around in his head. :eek:]

Barking Spider, I think that you are pathetic. From what I’ve read of your posts you have demonstrated that you are spiteful and willfully ignorant in the face of repeated efforts by Dopers to talk with you and to encourage you to engage facts and think critically about those facts. You seem so filled with hate that I both want to smack your parents and/or other family members upside the head for instilling in you the racist perspectives you insist on clinging to, and I pity your wife and kids, if you’ve somehow managed to obtain one or both of those. Since you maintain that “intelligence is hereditary,” it would be best if you get a vasectomy and whatever woman you marry/or have married gets her tubes tied to ensure that you do not procreate. I fear for the nation if you pass on your ignorant genes to another generation. If you have already had children, those poor younguns! Maybe they can fight your conception of “hereditary inheritance” and learn to think critically and logically about things. It will be difficult for them to fight the hate that you thrive on spewing every time you open your goddamned mouth, but I guess there’s always hope.

[Eva Luna]

Geez, such a stress level around here!

My personal philosophy is that if you feel the discrimination in your ancestry hasn't been recent enough to affect you and isn't now common among the minority group you belong to, if you have any morals at all, you won't apply for financial aid based on it.

Example: I'm Jewish (although nonobservant). Although my ancestors were certainly persecuted because of their race/ethnicity/religion/whatever you want to call it (which is, in fact, the reason I ended up being born in the U.S.) I'd be really surprised if anyone felt that American Jews are consistently victims of discrimination these days in academia.

Some people guess that I'm of Jewish descent because of my appearance, although I'm also frequently mistaken for other things (Hispanic and Armenian are common ones). To some, my last name can be a giveaway.

As a matter of principle, when I was applying to universities, I didn't request any scholarship information based on my Jewish heritage (and boy, was my mom pissed off when she found that out!), although I think that pretty much the only scholarships left where Jewishness is a requirement are those endowed by Jewish organizations, and most of those also have an academic excellence and/or financial need requirement. (Of course, I may have felt differently about it if I hadn't also been eligible for grants based purely on academic performance, what with my A.P. classes, National Merit Finalist status, etc.)

Since I went to a really good public high school, and was raised by two parents who both managed to finish college in spite of their parents' low income levels and/or immigrant status, even though I didn't exactly grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth, I don't feel that my lack of monetary wealth had anything to do with my ethnic heritage. (Leaving aside whatever Barking Spider probably thinks about how "my people" are running the world's financial infrastructure, I only wish it were true, or I wouldn't be spending the next billion years paying off student loans!)

I'm not naive enough, though, to think the same is true for members of all minorities. Whoever feels they are PERCEIVED BY OTHERS as a member of a disadvantaged minority, or have themselves been disadvantaged by their minority status, though, by all means, apply for whatever you're eligible to apply for.

[Heloise]

Most lynchings were of White men by White men. Those lynchings of Black men in the South were primarily by registered Democrat White men.

Also, refering to your claim that Whites kidnapped Blacks in Africa for slavery purposes, this is almost unheard of.

Many African slaves were captured by their fellow Africans, and sold into slavery by their fellow Africans to Arab slave traders.

Many, if not most African slaves, were already working as slaves to their African slave masters, when they were sold to the Arab slave traders.

I suggest you read a history book, preferably printed before the 1960s, if you want to read the truth of the African slave trade.


I didn't realize this was moving so fast toward humor! Wow, barking spider, that was funny! And I'm sure it was a joke, because if it wasn't, it would mean you were serious, and if you were, that would mean you were ignorant, and since this is all about fighting ignorance, that would mean.... You would need to educate yourself! Otherwise, you would just be a lying jackass. Take your pick... jackass.

[december]

Originally posted by tomndebb
No. There was one study that has been challenged on its flawed protocols that determined that within one specific set of speed limits on one highway system blacks were found to exceed the limit by 15% more than whites. The study made no mention of the routinely reported situation of a black professional being followed through his own neighborhood and being pulled over because the cop didn't think he "looked like he belonged there."tomndebb, I have no doubt that racial profiling was going on in NJ. People who were doing it confessed to doing it. Still, you need to be more aware that non-PC results are apt to be vigorously challenged. I don't doubt that some, but not all, of the stops of Black drivers were due to their speeding.

An appropriate level of skepticism is required to seriously evaluate The Bell Curve. I have never seen a book more unfairly maligned. Many critics mis-stated its theses. E.g., TBC made quite a point of saying that one could NOT conclude anything about genetic differences between races, because their lives were so different in American society. Many critics falsely claimed that TBC said the exact opposite.

Regarding the alleged errors: The biggest criticism of TBC had nothing to do with the author's research. They were blasted for simply repeating other people's research, which happened to give non-PC results.

Getting back to the OP, I'd like to support Monstro's thesis with an interesting fact. My wife is on the faculty at a medical school in Newark, just a few blocks away from Monstro's campus. At graduation, she noted only about 6 - 12 Blacks out of a class of 170. The relatively small percentage was not due to students failing to graduate. It was the same percentage admitted.

In short, even in this substantially Black city, Blacks have NOT gotten major affirmative action benefits at the medical school.

[Barking Spider]

I will say this.
I have respect for Monstro's academic achievements. But I say that as one person to another. I don't see see it as a Black/White thing.

My original point of contention was of Montro claiming a benefit for herself, which she would seek to deny to another. Heck, her co-student probably was full of shit in claiming to be a gypsy, ( I know it's sounds like bullshit to me) but it's still not Monsto's decision to make.

And Tommndebb, thank you for correcting me on the lynching stats. I'm going to have to do some research on my own though.

[Barking Spider]

I will say this.
I have respect for Monstro's academic achievements. But I say that as one person to another. I don't see see it as a Black/White thing.

My original point of contention was of Montro claiming a benefit for herself, which she would seek to deny to another. Heck, her co-student probably was full of shit in claiming to be a gypsy, ( I know it's sounds like bullshit to me) but it's still not Monsto's decision to make.

And Tommndebb, thank you for correcting me on the lynching stats. I'm going to have to do some research on my own though.

[tomndebb]

Regarding the alleged errors: The biggest criticism of TBC had nothing to do with the author's research. They were blasted for simply repeating other people's research, which happened to give non-PC results. No.

In the popular press in the months immediately following the publication of The Bell Curve, most of the loud criticism was voiced on PC objections. (This, of course, was due directly to the dishonest manner in which they hid their book from peer review so that at the time of publication there was inadequate information available to actually analyze their claims.)

In the ensuing years, actual scientists and mathematicians have had the opportunity to read the book, look at the claims, and write critiques.

The scientific press is universally condemnatory because
- they artificially matched unlike tests (when the results provided their desired goals)
- they misused data when it was similar
- and their math was actually wrong in many instances.

Condemning The Bell Curve in 2002 requires no adherence to PC, simple honesty and science destroys their polemic quite easily. As science, it is trash.
I don't doubt that some, but not all, of the stops of Black drivers were due to their speeding.So what? I did not claim that the "study" was nonsense. I noted that the study was limited to a very finite examination of speeding on a limited section of highway. I also noted in passing that the results have been challenged, but I did not claim that they have been invalidated. However, the study was clearly far too limited to destroy the notion of profiling.

[irishgirl]

you can get MONEY for being from a minority?
this strikes me as...ummm...wrong.

equal treatment: yes.
safeguards from discrimination:yes
help in paying fees for ALL poor students: yes

money for your genes:nope.

you need money if you're poor, of any colour, race or ethnicity.

can she apply for a student loan?
an extended overdraft?
government aid based on financial hardship rather than supposed race?
get a part time job?
hardship grants?
scholarships?

if she can do any of these things AND HASN'T she's just a lazy bint trying to scam money for nothing.

lord knows i could come to the US and take a lot of money off your government if i wanted to

(jewish/german/portuguese/north african/scots-irish/irish/south african/northern irish/eastern russian asian)

but since cuturally my identity is white and irish, i'm not going to (the US government breathes a sigh of relief)

i have ethics.

i don't lie
and misrepresent myself

i don't steal
from people who need money legitimately

and i don't piss people off
by exploiting something for financial gain which i had no interest in previously.

sorry. there you go.

[mswas]

here are the definitions for "racism" "affirmative action" "prejudice" and "discrimination" according to dictionary.com.

Affirmative action seeks to redress past discrimination against women and minority groups, it uses race as a factor.

Racism is Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Discrimination is Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit.

So Affirmative Action is discrimination using a class such as race to redress wrongs done based upon that class (race) Therefore it discriminates based upon race, therefore it fits the definition of racism.

Maybe one day we'll realize that classism is the real problem. Poor black people have more in common with poor white people than they have with their color coded counterparts in the upper classes.

I'm sure while Puff Daddy is playing golf with Martha Stewart in the Hamptons he probably spends the entire time bringing her up to speed on the plight of the black kids in Harlem.

There should be no extreme wealth or extreme poverty, what you do in the middle is your business and that is another thread.

You can't fight fire with fire and you can't fight racism with racism.

Thank you,
Erek

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=racism

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=affirmative%20action

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=prejudice

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=discrimination

rac·ism Pronunciation Key(rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

affirmative action
n : a policy designed to redress past discrimination against women and minority groups through measures to improve their economic and educational opportunities; "affirmative action has been extremely controversial and was challenged in 1978 in the Bakke decision"


prej·u·dice Pronunciation Key(prj-ds)
n.
1.
a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b. A preconceived preference or idea.

2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

dis·crim·i·na·tion Pronunciation Key(d-skrm-nshn)
n.
1. The act of discriminating.
2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

[Monty]

Want to see what all the different categories for which you can get money towards education are? Check with any college's financial aid section and they'll show you a huge number.

[monstro]

Maybe one day we'll realize that classism is the real problem. Poor black people have more in common with poor white people than they have with their color coded counterparts in the upper classes.

Too bad there aren't more black people in the upper classes.

And too bad you've ignored my posts that have said poor whites and white women can get special funding too. Are these programs called Affirmative Action? Or is your rant reserved only for blacks?

I'm sure while Puff Daddy is playing golf with Martha Stewart in the Hamptons he probably spends the entire time bringing her up to speed on the plight of the black kids in Harlem.

What?

I'm confused now.

Just because Puff Daddy is rich that means there are no poor black kids in Harlem?

Or because he's rich he has no right to talk about the poor?

Puff Daddy shouldn't be playing golf with Martha Stewart?

Martha Stewart doesn't know there are poor kids in Harlem?

What is your point exactly?

You can't fight fire with fire and you can't fight racism with racism.

So if poor people were preferentially treated (which I think you would be for based on your comments about the poor), you wouldn't find this akin to fighting "classism with classism"?

[mswas]

The thing is, you CAN fight classism with classism, as classism is very much based in money. So while you cannot actually get rid of classism that way, you can certainly alleviate the burden of it by changing who's hands the money is in. It doesn't work the same way with racism. People don't stop hating black people just because they are more affluent.

The comment about Puff Daddy and Martha Stewart is that they have more in common with each other than they have with you or I.

And too bad you've ignored my posts that have said poor whites and white women can get special funding too. Are these programs called Affirmative Action? Or is your rant reserved only for blacks?

Apparently you missed the entire point. Making a distinction based upon skin color is wrong. Period. Poor whites and women CAN get special benefits, but not because they are white, but yes because they are women. If there were ever a "white male" scholarship, people would be screaming bloody murder as they should, as they should if there is a black male scholarship, unless of course either of these is funded by a private organization. If the NAACP wants only black kids to get money, then that's who they can give it to. (don't know if the NAACP is funded by the government at all or not) just as the KKK should be able to give scholarship money to whomever they want.

And I agree with you that it is too bad there aren't more black people in the upper classes, it is too bad that you've had to face racism, but taking money away from EVERY American to benefit ONLY black Americans, is pretty unconcionable. I think most people can get behind a merit based system, but, I think that a discriminatory system such as that, which would either reward someone who does not merit such an award, or exclude someone who is very deserving of that award, is just wrong.

You can't bitch and moan about discrimination and then wish to be discriminated for instead of against. That's not asking for equality, that's saying "I don't mind there being haves and have nots, as long as I'm one of the haves"

And whether you've noticed it or not Affirmative Action tends to breed contempt. How does that fight racism?

Erek

[monstro]

The comment about Puff Daddy and Martha Stewart is that they have more in common with each other than they have with you or I.

I don't think you can say this if you look beyond the superficial.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't agree. I think the problems in my community are not always linked to money. For instance, there are disparaties in the way blacks and whites are diagnosed and treated for certain conditions that still exist even when class is taken into consideration. Even among middle-class black kids, there's this notion that science is "not for them". Racism and classism are linked--to be sure--but they also exist independently from one another. At this moment in our history, we aren't at a point where we can dismiss one and use the other as a blanket explanation for everything

Poor whites and women CAN get special benefits, but not because they are white, but yes because they are women.

Poor whites can get special treatment because they are poor and have difficult access to health, education, basic services, etc. Blacks can get special treatment because they are generally poor and face issues that are both internal and external, due to their history as an isolated, oppressed, stigmitized people. Poor and black Americans--as a consolidated group--both have issues that tend to overlap one another. But why is it okay to favor one group but not the other seeing as how they have DIFFERENT issues?

Favoring the poor is right, you would say, because it balances out the advantage that the rich already have. Why doesn't the same analogy apply to programs favoring racial minorities? Aren't these programs--in theory--just distributing power so that racial skewness doesn't perpetuate itself? If you give a poor guy a job, aren't you excluding a rich guy? Aren't you discriminating?

Many rich Americans protest strongly against their tax money going to charity for the poor. Your protests against AA-for-blacks sounds very similar.

If there were ever a "white male" scholarship, people would be screaming bloody murder as they should, as they should if there is a black male scholarship, unless of course either of these is funded by a private organization. If the NAACP wants only black kids to get money, then that's who they can give it to. (don't know if the NAACP is funded by the government at all or not) just as the KKK should be able to give scholarship money to whomever they want.

This isn't a program just for black people, as I have said numerous times. It's for a list of racial minority groups that 1)have been historically oppressed in the US and 2)exhibit a suite of health disparities. Actually, at my school, most of the students in the NIH-sponsored program are Latino, not black. So why the hell are all your arguments focused on black people?!

And I agree with you that it is too bad there aren't more black people in the upper classes, it is too bad that you've had to face racism, but taking money away from EVERY American to benefit ONLY black Americans, is pretty unconcionable.

Yes, this would be unconscionable. That's why it's wonderful that it doesn't only benefit black Americans. You haven't been following this thread very closely, have you?

But let's flip the script:

"But taking money away from EVERY American to benefit ONLY poor Americans, is pretty unconcionable."

Like I said, this sounds like something a Newt Gingrich-type would say about welfare or any other social program.

You can't bitch and moan about discrimination and then wish to be discriminated for instead of against. That's not asking for equality, that's saying "I don't mind there being haves and have nots, as long as I'm one of the haves"

Imagine that you're saying this to one of the poor people you claim only deserve preferential treatment. Does it still make sense?

[mswas]

Alright, let's not turn this into a thread on classism. I have to clarify my point on classism, and it gets into property rights a little bit, which IS NOT what this thread is about and I don't want to hijack it more than I need to to make my point.

Rich people do not have any inherent right to the money that they have, in my opinion. The resources that they used to acquire that wealth belongs to every one. I see property rights as more of a lease from humanity at large as opposed to strict ownership. I think that property rights of any kind be it physical or intellectual are there only to benefit society as a whole. You award the most ingenius idea/person the rights to that property because they will give more of a benefit to the world at large. For instance oil companies will do better with land covering oil pockets than ranchers well, whereas farmers will do better with fertile land than oil companies will, etc... I believe wealth is there to be an incentive, but that does not mean that it is your completely and totally.

I think that the disparity of income is not because the wealthy people that DO have it, actually deserve it, or have some kind of actual claim to it through some kind of productiveness, no most of the people at the time go there by buying companies and maximizing their profit. Sometimes you can maximize profit by cutting your supply, laying off workers and selling some of the machines, thereby driving prices up and costs down at the same time. While this tactic is very often necessary to keep a company vital and healthy, it is just as often used to keep rich stockholders from selling shares and devaluing the stock, stock which the CEOs also own, stocks which, if their value went down considerably, the CEOs wealth would go down considerably.

This effectively, fucks the poor. So this, CEO who is drawing resources from the planet that we ALL share, is reaping a disproportionate amount of benefit from it, where if you shaved off just a little off the top, maybe asking him to sacrifice his Lear in favor of flying first class, you could raise the standard of living of 10,000 people.

So in the scenario that I described, the rich CEO, who let's say is South American lays off 2000 workers and stock goes up. 800 white workers, 700 hispanics and 400 blacks and 100 mixed/various races are all laid off. They all lost thier jobs, they are all worried about their mortgage/rent. Race does not factor in, they all got fucked pretty equally, but they all have one thing in common, they are now all poor.

We are coming to a threshold. In the 90s, it appeared that unlike we suspected in the 80s, technology wouldn't actually outpace human productivity, because computers created millions of NEW jobs that only humans could do. Now there are programs that write other programs. There is a glut of people who went to school for their degrees, got their MCSE, or just plain learned how to use a computer on their own, all very knowledgeable capable people who need a job, but can't find one. So technology is sure enough outpacing the need for human workers. We even have come to accept shoddier service because big business is going to use machines where they can even if the service is inferior, because if enough of the companies force us to do it then we'll accept it (voice mail labyrinths anyone?)

So, what is happening is the rich are able to maximize their profits, while investing in new technology based upon the profits from their human workers, and natural resources that will be more productive than one worker can be. Sure it'll take a human to operate them, but that one human is doing the job of ten other humans. Now we can claim that education is the answer, people would be better served to work in a much more specialized field, because lord knows those are cropping up faster than we can fill them, but we cut funding to schools before we cut it to just about anything else, not to mention we hire all the people who couldn't get a job somewhere else just so we can have an adult in front of the fourth graders to keep them from burning the class down. The government pays for public schools but somehow the richer districts have better public schools than the poorer schools. So how do we REALLY expect Joe Jackson from Harelm or Joe McDonald from Kentucky to truly compete in the college bound market? We don't, so what does the school do? They train them not to aspire too high. Why would you want to be an astronaut? Almost no one makes that cut, maybe you should try you hand at being a mechanic since you're interested in mechanical stuff. Trust me this kind of stuff happens, my school counselor talked me out of taking the SATs because she assumed I'd go to school in New Mexico where the ACT is taught. I moved out of New Mexico the moment I graduated.

So WHAT exactly makes these rich men DESERVE the wealth that they have? My opinion is nothing. They don't deserve it, however it does serve our best interests for them to have it, progress DOES benefit humanity, it stops plagues, it helps colonize islands, or even other celestial bodies. It allows us to call an ambulance when we are sick, or to be in constant touch with our friends and family 1000 miles away. I am not against technology, in fact I'm all for it, but I'm all for it benefitting HUMANITY, not just the wealthy percentage of humanity. Statistically I am one of the wealthiest people on the planet, I would never DREAM of living off a dollar a day, in fact, I pay 30 dollars to go to a club for fun on a Saturday night, I've even at one point in my life blown hundreds of dollars in a weekend regularly. That's a lot of money, and I'm still in the 90% of the people that share half this world's wealth while the other 10% share the other half. That's pretty disparate in my opinion. I don't even WANT help from the government necessarily, except maybe free health care. However I walk by the projects down the street and I see poverty that CAN be helped, and I know this, because I go downtown two or three miles and I go into apartments where people paid 100,000 for a painting, 10,000 for a couch so ugly I wouldn't want it if you gave it to me. I find this all rather ridiculous.

So as I said before racism and classism are seperate things, they aren't even the same coin, they maybe resemble each other in the way a quarter resembles a nickle, but that's as far as I'll agree to. I think the quarter is much more important, though I think it's the least addressed, because it's in charge of 25 cents, whereas the nickle his direct subordinate, only covers 5 cents, and excludes 20 and gets a lot more face time.

Erek

[monstro]

I think the quarter is much more important, though I think it's the least addressed, because it's in charge of 25 cents, whereas the nickle his direct subordinate, only covers 5 cents, and excludes 20 and gets a lot more face time.

In the context of increasing minority participation in the sciences, I disagree with this statement. But I appreciate your explanation.

[mswas]

I take your point, and I do think you hold a valid ideal, I just think it's the wrong path to be taking, as I explained before, because there are white kids who are just as brilliant as you are, that have no more of an advantage toward the sciences than you do. Basically, I feel that affirmative action assumes that you have some kind of automatic benefit by being white and male, as white and male is the only group that is ineligible for any kind of affirmative action. I think that it is fallacious to say that being white and male confers any benefit whatsoever solely because you are white and male. The wealthy socialites here in New York will have the same lack of empathy for a white male from hicksville USA as they will for a black male from inner city USA. In otherwords I am saying that discrimination transcends racial lines. It is not limited to JUST race and I see there being no societal benefit to increasing minority participation in the sciences, whereas I do see a benefit in increasing the participation of disadvantaged people in the sciences.

Erek