Punk Died Today, Didja Notice?

[eunoia]

Here it is, short and sweet:

Punk is now officially dead, because I decide these things for the rest of the world. There have been many false alarms and folks crying wolf but punk survived them all, until this:

Adidas Climacool running shoes commercial uses The Stranglers tune "Peaches".

No More Heroes indeed.

Fuck the pain away, fuck the pain away...

[Hamadryad]

What, again?

*yawn*

[tiggeril]

I can never remember if punk or "real rock" has died more often.

[pezpunk]

They are cool shoes though.

:rolleyes:

[WSLer]

*YAWN*

Boring.

[GaWd]

Rock has been dead since...well, since Hair bands took over in the 80's. Rock is still dead, though some refuse to let it go(evidence of mulletry, hair feathering, and Aerosmith's new music say it's so).

Punk has been dead for quite some time, though since I find it a particularly annoying genre/following, I haven't had time to check the epitaph.

Sam

[Journeyman]

It's not dead, it just smells funny.

[Mojo]

Whuddya mean, punk's dead? Why just this past weekend the Dead Kennedys were in town. And while its true that Klaus Fluoride isn't as good as he used to be, and they replaced Jello with some guy who used to star in sitcoms (http://www.deadkennedys.com/members.htm#bc), and who put out an album with Mickey Dolenz and Bill Bixby, and appeared on Weakest Link, and... what was I saying? Punk isn't dead? Where did I get THAT from?

[Miller]

Am I the only person on the planet who doesn't give a shit when popular music is used in TV commercials? All these pop songs were written by professional musicians, "professional" meaning they expected to get money for writing and/or performing their material. They wrote these songs hoping to sell albums, concert tickets, t-shirts, etc. Why not throw sneakers into the mix? And hey, if you like the song, why are you bitching about being able to hear it more often? And finally, who the fuck listens to commercials in the first place? That's why they invented the "mute" button.

I give this rant a -5.6.

[RTA]

You say you want a revolution,
We-ell, you know ...
We all want to sell some shoes.

[Angel of the Lord]

No. NOOOO.

::does CPR::

::Punk gets up, starts playing "American Jesus"::

Ah. I guess that's better.

See, it's not dead yet :D.

[pbrtallboy]

Originally posted by eunoia


Fuck the pain away, fuck the pain away...

Is that a Teaches of Peaches reference? There's only one Peach...with a hole in the middle!

[SmackFu]

The Stranglers formed in 1974. That means that punk can apparently be killed by a bunch of 40- somethings (at least!) that probably need some money to pay for the lease on their new Saturn.

Sure. Whatever.

[red_dragon60]

Look, they are being sucessful. Don't begrudge 'em of making money. Have you noticed that a lot of punk music is being used in commercials now? Buzzcocks for one. Let 'em have their sucess.

[Lockfist]

Originally posted by eunoia
Here it is, short and sweet:

Punk is now officially dead, because I decide these things for the rest of the world. There have been many false alarms and folks crying wolf but punk survived them all, until this:

Adidas Climacool running shoes commercial uses The Stranglers tune "Peaches".

No More Heroes indeed.

Fuck the pain away, fuck the pain away...

Well eunoia, this story is not quite punk (grindcore actually) but its along the same lines, and it should lift your spirits !

Napalm Death lead singer, Mark "Barney" Greenway turned down an offer to provide the vocals for this (http://www.canneslions.com/Html/CLCreativeShowcase/DrogaShowcase/reebok_detail.shtml#) award-winning Reebok commercial. It features a man running from a giant "Belly" which is singing in a gruff and throaty voice "Bellys goona get cha..."

Barney had this to say (from the www.enemyofthemusicbusiness.com)

Obviously, though, I wouldn't be naive enough to suggest that we can escape all traces of corporate products; we're surrounded by them everywhere every day. Still, I do what I can. Yeah, I drive a Vauxhall motor car (General Motors, I believe), but i wouldn't piss on McDonalds if it was on fire. I try. Just recently, i was asked to sing a bit over a Reebok advert, but didn't do it because it didn't feel right. Ok, so i have a couple of Reebok T-shirts, but it doesn't mean that I'm gonna get involved in a bloody company advert.

After all, corporations are happy to let people die for just a few dollars more.

...if anything I would think the fact that Jello got beat-up (http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id198/pg1/) at a punk show for being a "sell-out" would tell you that Punk is ALIVE!.

[mouthbreather]

C'mon! With Blink 182 keepin it real, punk will never die! Oi!

[TwistofFate]

Fuck the begrudgers.

If a Buzzcocks song on a Heinken Ad or Stranglers tunes used to sell sneakers, great. If the Artists are comfortable with their music being used, its their choice.

Plus, a whole load of kids are hearing their music for the first time and wanting to hear more.

If you dont want to "sell out" dont perform your music at all.

Write punk songs and shout them to yourself in your bedroom, because the first cent you make from your talent you have "Sold Out".

Go, enjoy, make some money to survive. Music is the food of the soul. share it out with everyone. But don't begrudge people for being successful, or beat someone up for "selling out".

[Bob Scene]

I would like to go on record as predicting that within our lifetimes "Suck My Ass It Smells" by GG Allin And The Murder Junkies will be used in a toilet paper commercial.

[astorian]

Well, let's see.... who's had a #1 single more recently, Yes or the Ramones? (Hint: it starts with a Y)

Who's had a top ten single more recently, the Moody Blues or the Clash? (Hint: their initials are M.B.)

I use these examples, because even when it became clear that punk was an unimportant genre that wasn't going anywhere, its defenders clung to one slender defense of the genre: "at least punk put an end to pompous, pretentious art-rock."

Well... no, actually, it didn't. Long after punk started making headlines, Yes, the Moody Blues, Genesis, and other bands of their ilk continued to sell millions of records and fill major arenas.
So, not only was punk a failure, it was a COMPLETE failure.

I say punk officially died when Asia had the #1 album of 1982.

[dead0man]

So every genre of music that doesn't get a number 1 album regulerly is dead? Jazz? dead. Classical? dead. Blues? dead. Glam Rock? dead. Punk? dead. Just because you dont see it on MTV doesnt mean its dead. Yes Kid Rock and the Eagles sell more tickets in Omaha than NOFX does. Sure there will be more people at the Glam Rock reunion than there will be at Vans(HA!!!!) Warped Tour. Your punk maybe dead, but all punk aint dead.
dead0man

[pldennison]

That's about the dumbest thing I've heard in a while, astorian. While I can turn on MTV, or look at the Billboard 200 Album Chart (http://www.billboard.com/billboard/charts/bb200.jsp) and find more than a handful of acts who would cite punk as a significant musical influence, I can't find a single art-rock group on there. Eh, Rush is at #29, so I guess that's close.

Every time you turn around, for about the last ten years, there's another punk- or ska-tinged/influenced pop band on the charts: Green Day, Rancid, Blink 192, Sum 41, the Offspring, arguably the Beastie Boys (who started out punk before they went rap, and "Sabotage" is a better punk song than most bands have done), No Doubt, Moby (the man covered Mission of Burma, and he's totally DIY) . . . the list goes on and on.

Where are the bands on the charts that sound like Yes? Or the Moody Blues? Nowhere. Those bands have their fans (hey, I dig the Moodys, even their 80s stuff), but they aren't exactly sending kids to the music stores in droves to buy guitars and start bands.

Who is? The Ramones, the Clash, the Sex Pistols, the Dead Kennedys, Black Flag . . . Punk a complete failure? Maybe in your dreams, but not in the music world.

[Derleth]

Punk as a music genre may die, but if the DIY spirit dies, we're all in deep shit. And as long as DIY is around, all that matters about punk is alive and kicking.

-Derleth, Ramones fan, NOFX fan, and lover of other random punk bands. Oh, and I'm a Linux lover. :D

[Tanaqui]

All you know about me is what I've sold you,
Dumb fuck.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name.

I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip shit,
And you bought one.


Until someone can provide me with another name for the genre that many bands I like fit in -- Millencolin, Thrice, Lagwagon, New Found Glory, yes, and even Green Day and Blink-182 -- I'll continue calling them punk. (The continuation of this thought being, as long as they're still making music, the genre can't be dead.) And no, "that style of music that isn't like it was in my day back when we had to walk through 50 miles of pouring snow before we could see some little band play in a dingy club" doesn't count.

Tana

[Typo Negative]

As long as Leonard and Stan from The Dickies are still playing LA gigs, punk still has a pulse!


LONG LIVE THE DICKIES!!!!!


ps, Lagwagon is really cool.....

[pldennison]

. . . when I'm not so tired, and with a little less hostility.

To state that a musical genre is "dead," you have to look just a little bit farther than chart success, and who has had a #1 hit recently. You have to look at its position and influence in the larger music world, and in the popular culture.

Prog rock, as a genre, is, well, pretty stagnant. There aren't a lot of new prog rock bands popping up all over the place. The same bands that were considered the giants of the genre in 1995 were, for the most part, the same bands that were considered the giants in 1985 and 1975.

Sure, Yes has had a #1 hit--in 1983. Sure, the Moodys have had a top ten--in 1986. But those two bands don't encompass all of prog rock. Where are all the other prog rock bands tearing up the charts? Most of them have been consigned to chart irrelevancy, maintaining their fan bases (and even picking up new ones) through endless "reunion" and "anniversary" tours and occasional new material.

Think of all the big prog rock bands of, say, the last 20 years, and how many have disappeared completely or become musically irrelevant. Start with the big ones, who still maintain relevancy: Pink Floyd, Rush, Genesis, Kansas (maybe), Jethro Tull (unless we count them as heavy metal :rolleyes:) . . . Supertramp, sort of, and they're doing a tour . . . does Alan Parsons even work anymore? . . . Marillion, Styx (if you want to get really tenuous) . . . ELP doesn't exist anymore . . . Eno? But where are all the new bands who started their recording careers after 1980 (the crest of the first wave of punk)? You can probably count them on one hand. Queensryche (sort of), Dream Theater, maybe Kings X, GTR (a one-off), maybe Radiohead . . . there really aren't a lot.

Then look at the punk bands since 1980. Even if you ignore punk's direct descendant, New Wave (which means leaving out Cheap Trick, Blondie, the Cars, and the Knack, among others), you can come up with: Husker Du, the Replacements, Soul Asylum, the Minutemen, Nirvana, the Violent Femmes, Dead Milkmen, Dead Kennedys, Circle Jerks, Black Flag, Fear, Sonic Youth, Green Day, Meat Puppets, Blink 182, X, the Red Hot Chili Peppers . . . the list goes on and on.

Prog rock -- and I'm not dismissing the genre; I like Floyd and the Moodys and lots of them -- is, culturally, a footnote. It's influence on the culture is almost nil. Where are all the movies about progressive rock or art rock? Depending on where you place glam, you've got Velvet Goldmine, I guess. When you look at punk, you've got Sid & Nancy, The Decline of Western Civilization, Ladies and Gentlemen, the Fabulous Stains!, Repo Man, Straight to Hell, Rock and Roll High School, and dozens of others that use punk and new wave either as a setting or a soundtrack.

Punk, far from dead, did the most subversive thing it could have done--it became the mainstream.

[London_Calling]

Perhaps your 'punk' is different from my punk. It had done its job my about '81 and since then just acts as an occasional reminder that non-violent anger at a (perceived) status quo is good. Especially when done with humour, maannnnnnn

It was just a bunch of working-class kids making a simplistic statement. Any attached ideology was nothing more than those uneducated kids, encouraged by the media and their record company's to give their genre profundity, sounding off.

If you want to adhere to the spirit of punk, stay angry. Complicated it ain't.

[Derleth]

Originally posted by pldennison
When you look at punk, you've got Sid & Nancy, The Decline of Western Civilization, Ladies and Gentlemen, the Fabulous Stains!, Repo Man, Straight to Hell, Rock and Roll High School, and dozens of others that use punk and new wave either as a setting or a soundtrack.Hey, you left out SLC Punk!

Ya weirdo!

:D

Other than that, I agree with you fully.

(BTW, what is 'prog rock'? What musical structure defines it?)

[Freudian Slit]

Originally posted by Miller
And hey, if you like the song, why are you bitching about being able to hear it more often? And finally, who the fuck listens to commercials in the first place? That's why they invented the "mute" button.

I give this rant a -5.6.


Ditto. It's become too predictable- some advertisement uses a popular song, and people rant about it. Sure, sometimes it's ironic, like using "Mercedes Benz" in an actual Mercedes Benz commercial, but nothing to get up in arms about. If I like the song, I usually like hearing a clip of it and if I don't I usually change the channel. Commercials can be kind of irritating, but not the devilspawn of the earth people are making them out to be.

[waterj2]

Well, that one with about five seconds of Thick as a Brick repeated endlessly was something to get up in arms about. Well, not literally, but it was a travesty. Or at least suprememly irritating and stupid.

As for punk, I'll add that astorian's standards and eunoia's seem mutually contradictory. After all, no one is using Tales From the Topographic Oceans in any commercials that I've ever heard of.

[pesch]

It's not dead. It's resting



:: d&r, chased by spiked-hair mob::

[Derleth]

Yeah. It's fagged out from releasing an enormous album not two months ago.

Not to mention that it's pining for the Ramones (miss ya, Joey!).

Beautiful leather! :D

[Dryga_Yes]

I think two separate debates are being debated in this thread -- whether or not the ideals behind punk are alive and whether or not the aesthetics of punk are alive.

I think punk today's biggest problem is that all the mainstream punk done today has lost the idea behind punk. It's supposed to be a middle finger in the air towards 98% of the population. In the 80's you had the good people like Hüsker Dü keeping the tradition alive, but there are few similar bands in the 90's. As others have said though, punk is still alive, because many bands today make music that still sounds punk.

To continue the prog-rock tangent, I think progressive rock has the opposite problem. The most common prog-rock aesthetic of as much bombast as possible and millions of instruments together is... well, dead. You have Spiritualized and Radiohead and not much more. OTOH, the idea of making music that at the same time rocked and was "intellectually challenging" is alive. Hell, even in punk-driven bands like Sonic Youth. You have the whole post-rock/math rock movement, IDM (I hate that term)/Electronica, noise-driven indie rock...







I'm only double-A, but I'm thinking triple-X...

[Banger]

Snuff still rocks:D

As long as the old albums continue to be printed and new bands are influenced by them, punk is going to still be around.

By the way, I got the Clash dvd West Way to the World last night. Great documentary, and a lot of good footage of the Clash live when they took up residence in Times Square.

[eunoia]

Punk's back, I changed my mind, not so much for the retorts in this thread, but I got a great e-mail with an apt criticism of my OP: "What's the point of making sacred cows out of those who kill the sacred cows?"

Guilty as charged.

Fuck the Stranglers.

Stigmata! Stigmata! Stigmata! Ahhhhh-Ugghhhhh!

[Mojo]

Originally posted by pldennison
Prog rock, as a genre, is, well, pretty stagnant. There aren't a lot of new prog rock bands popping up all over the place.

On a side note, you may want to check out Deadsy. I haven't heard a band sound so 80s (but in a good way) in a long time.

[astorian]

Guys, I'm 41. I was a huge art-rock fan in high school, but it was pretty obvious even by the late 70s that the genre was moribund. Art-rock was just one of many rock movements that had a moment in the sun, yielded a lot of records (some great, some good, some godawful), then pretty much faded away. A few of my favorites in that genre had a resuegence in the 80s, but that was more a last gasp than a resurrection. Today, it's pretty much dead. So, let's get one thing straight- I wasn't claiming that Yes or the Moody Blues represent the future of music! They're not much more than nostalgia acts now. Sort of like the Beach Boys with mellotrons. Those acts had their day, but that day has been gone for a long time now.

But at least they HAD their day. In their prime, they sold millions of records and filled hockey stadiums. That's a lot more than any of the punks can claim. Even the few breakout stars of the punk movement almost never achieved the commercial success of the "dinosaurs" they claimed to have buried.

Punk, like art-rock, was a "movement" that lasted a few years, yielded a lot of records (a few great, a few good, mostly godawful), and faded away.

There are only a few ways to dispute the notion that punk was a tiny, insignificant short-lived, failed "movement." To wit:

1) Insist that commercial success and mass popularity are irrelevant, as many on this board have done. Even at the height of their popularity, the Ramones couldn't draw a tiny fraction of the crowds coming to see heavy metal dinosaurs like Alice Cooper and Black Sabbath... but we're supposed to pretend that the Ramones somehow mattered more.

Sorry, folks, I don't buy this line of reasoning. This is rock and roll we're talking about, not avant-garde poetry. High art can be magnificent, even if only a handful of people appreciate it. But rock and roll is part of popular culture... and what are we to make of popular culture that isn't popular?

2) Expand the musical definition of "punk" to include practically everything (music critics do this regularly, though any definition of "punk" that includes both Cheap Trick and the Buzzcocks strikes me as ridiculously vague, folks).

3) Treat punk as a "spirit" rather than a genre, so that ANY music expressing anger (gangsta rap, say) can be embraced as a continuation of the punk ethos.

*

I keep putting the word "movement" in quotes, because I never saw any common threads linking the various punk bands. I mean, what was "punk" supposed to be? Was it...

1) An Expression of the Underclass' Anger at "the system"? Naaah! Too many of the leading punk bands (especially in America) were apolitical, for this too make much sense, and too many of the leading lights of punk wouldn't know the Underclass if they tripped over it (Joe Strummer, like many of the politically-minded punks, was a rich brat POSING as a proletarian).

2) A Rebellion Against "Pompous, Pretentious" Art-Rock, and a Return to Simple, Three-Chord Rock." Naaaah! First of all, just like the art-rockers, most of the "punks" were wimpy, cerebral, pompous, art-school dropouts to begin with (geez, can you imagine the grief Keith Emerson would have gotten if he'd changed HIS name to "Keith Verlaine"?). Second, only a few punk bands (like the Ramones) fell into the simplistic three-chord pattern. Blondie and the Talking Heads, for instance, played every style imaginable BESIDES three-chord rock.

"Punk" had no common theme or ideology, and represented too many different styles of music to make for a meaningful movement.

*

That said, did I/do I like some of the music that came out of the brief punk wave? Sure. I have the Ramones' greatest hits CDs, and still get a kick out of it. "Never Mind the Bollocks" started out with two great songs (heck, if the Pistols just released "Holiday in the Sun" and "Bodies" as a double-sided single, then broken up, they'd be among my favorite one-hit wonders in history), before descending into utter crud. I always liked Mick Jones as much as I hated Joe Strummer, and often enjoyed the pop-oriented Clash songs.

But I never took punk seriously, for several reasons. First, by the time it came around, I was already reaching a cynical age. I'd come to realize that many of the art-rock and heavy metal bands I'd loved were... well, IDIOTS! Jon Anderson's lyrics may have seemed profound, but once you hear him talk, you realize.... this guy is a MORON! The music still sounded great, but once one grasps just how DUMB the poet is, the seemingly deep poetry starts to seem more like nonsense. It was poor Patti Smith's misfortune to come along at a time when I was no longer quick to assume that complicated lyrics must be meaningful. In truth, Patti Smith struck me less as a mystical poetess than as... stupid. REALLY stupid. Jon Anderson stupid.

"Spinal Tap" was hilarious to guys my age, because we were old enough to laugh at people we'd once taken seriously. And today, we laugh hysterically at "The Osbournes" because it reminds us how silly we were to think Ozzy was genuinely evil or scary, when he was really just a dunce.

So, when we ex-metalheads hear an old Deep Purple, Ozzy, or Led Zeppelin song in a car commerical, do we care? Not really. We long ago quit taking the music and the musicians seriously. We figure Ozzy is just another guy in show biz, so we don't mind seeing him make a buck or two.

Punk fans don't seem to have grown up to the same extent. The fact that the Stranglers FINALLY got a chance to make a buck or two outrages them! As if the Stranglers CHOSE to have zero fans and sell zero records. As if they got into the music business in HOPES of spending their lives playing for a tiny cult audience, and living in poverty!

I mean, get real! NOBODY starts a rock and roll band in the hopes of dying poor and unnoticed. EVERY rock band, even the idealistic ones, hopes to become rich and famous... or at LEAST to make a living. It doesn't bother me in the least to hear a Ramones song in a beer commercial, simply because I never thought the Ramones music was sacrosanct. Their best stuff was merely energetic and fun, with no artistic merit. Why SHOULDN'T the Ramones have "sold out," if there were beer companies willing to pay them? And why begrudge the Stranglers a paycheck?

Hearing a punk song (or a 70s heavy metal song) in a commercial isn't really a sign that the music is dead, merely that the kids who once loved it are now old enoughg and (presumably) affluent enough to be of interest to advertisers. The appropriate response isn't anger... it's "Gulp! Oh my God, am I really so old that advertisers think I'd be interested in a product like THAT???"

When you hear "Black Dog" in an Efferdent ad, or the Ramones' "Glad to See You Go" in an Ex-lax commercial,
THAT will be the time to worry.

[Junior Spaceman]

Wow, astorian's managed to say what I put off saying for the last week or however long I've been following this thread. And I say all that as someone who loves punk. Who breathes punk. Who thinks punk is, at its best, pretty much the peak of western culture. The question of whether it's dead or not is so irrelevant - it's like asking if Surrealist painting is dead. The answer being, sure, maybe, could be, but who cares?

We live in a golden age now where all the great punk of the past is becoming available again - crikey, there's even a Rocket From the Tombs album out, which I've waited about seven years for, but some people have waited 25 years for. All those compilations - Killed by Death, Bloodstains over ... - this is really punk for the masses, even though the masses never listened to punk in the first place.

I remember being an uptight anti-establishment university student and thinking that the world was going to end because William Burroughs was doing an ad for Nike. But the fact is, nothing changed, except he got a few more bucks, and those few of us who recognised him got a momentary thrill. The vast majority of people couldn't have cared less.

Punk is about whatever you want it to be, if it's dead for you, then it's dead, but if you get the Shit Street CD by The Pagans and crank it up really high (to coin a phrase), you can still have the time of your life.

I most of all agree with astorian's statements about how people call everything they like 'punk', as if punk is the only thing that's worthy. Face it folks. If you like Johnny Cash, that doesn't make him punk, it means that you like a folk/country singer. If you like NWA, that means you like a rap act, not that they're punk. Punk is not the only worthy aesthetic - there's lots of musical traditions that are just as glorious and important as punk (or more), and have no connection whatever to the punk/DIY/whatever way of life.

[waterj2]

Punk fans don't seem to have grown up to the same extent. The fact that the Stranglers FINALLY got a chance to make a buck or two outrages them! As if the Stranglers CHOSE to have zero fans and sell zero records. As if they got into the music business in HOPES of spending their lives playing for a tiny cult audience, and living in poverty!
I think it's entirely possible that they may have preferred to play for small audiences of punks than try to appeal to the masses. A lot of punk music has a bit of an "us against them" attitude to it, and I think that many punk bands wanted to play for the "us" rahter than the "them". Hell, just as an example, NOFX doesn't release their songs for commercial radio airplay, even though it would probably bring in more fans/fame/money/etc.
There are only a few ways to dispute the notion that punk was a tiny, insignificant short-lived, failed "movement." To wit:
Well, the notion that punk was short-lived would be easily disputed by showing that there are still many punk bands out there, with new bands forming constantly. The notion that it was failed and insignificant could be disputed by showing the influence that punk had on other genres. I guess you could cling to tiny, but that seems overly harsh as well.
And why begrudge the Stranglers a paycheck?
Did you notice that most of the fans of punk that have replied to this thread actually aren't begrudging the Stranglers anything. Although, I have to admit that I'd find it strangely unsettling to hear the Dead Kennedies in an Army recruiting commercial. I guess I could see how "Holiday in Cambodia" would work, but only to the truly irony impaired.

[astorian]

Water- the Dead Kennedys selling a song for Army recruiting wouldn't be unprecedented!

A lot of people are unaware of this, but the Who actually did several Army recruiting advertisements in the U.S.- at the height of the Viet Nam war, no less.

So, stranger... no, make that EQUALLY strange things have happened.

[crass33]

When i was in a punk band, we didn't do it for the money, we barely made enough to buy gas. It was for the fun. So yeah, i think the stranglers did 'sell out' but we probably would have done the same thing. Drugs, cigarettes, and beer aren't cheap.

[Tentacle Monster]

Punk will officially be dead the day "I Kill Everything That I Fuck" by GG Allin is used in a commercial.

[gluteus maximus]

You bumped a two-year old thread to tell us that?

You're well on your way to fighting ignorance! Welcome to the SDMB!



Punk's still dead.

[Ilsa_Lund]

When i was in a punk band, we didn't do it for the money, we barely made enough to buy gas. It was for the fun. So yeah, i think the stranglers did 'sell out' but we probably would have done the same thing. Drugs, cigarettes, and beer aren't cheap.

Was that really worth a two year old resurrection?

[Jeff Lodoen]

Water- the Dead Kennedys selling a song for Army recruiting wouldn't be unprecedented!

A lot of people are unaware of this, but the Who actually did several Army recruiting advertisements in the U.S.- at the height of the Viet Nam war, no less.

A hijack, but was it with their approval? I ask because I heard that "Dawning Is The Day" by the Moody Blues was used in an Air Force ad. That aired only once. Supposedly the band was not happy. Apocryphal? Maybe.

[gluteus maximus]

Was that really worth a two year old resurrection?

How soon they forget!

[htns]

When you hear "Black Dog" in an Efferdent ad, or the Ramones' "Glad to See You Go" in an Ex-lax commercial,
THAT will be the time to worry.

No, I'll worry when I hear a Cyndi Lauper track in a commercial for adult undergarments or a Belinda Carlisle track in a commercial for a retirement home.

At that point, I'll probably die from depression and angst.

[Miller]

If this thread can come back from the dead, then so can punk.

[gluteus maximus]

What, again?

*yawn*

That post, from 17 months ago, although accurate, does not explain why this is in the Pit.

[lexi]

I think both the musical ethos and the social ethos of punk is returning. Punk was both a musical movement and a social movement - most of the bands were also part of the greater scene, and even when bands I liked were given contracts from a record company, the bands stayed in the scene.

I don't begrudge anyone success - so I was always happy when people I knew were able to make enough money to buy more than beer & gass to get to the next town to play.

Selling out - naw! Only people I ever called sellouts were the ones who pretended they didn't know you once they made money.

Punk fans don't seem to have grown up to the same extent. The fact that the Stranglers FINALLY got a chance to make a buck or two outrages them! As if the Stranglers CHOSE to have zero fans and sell zero records. As if they got into the music business in HOPES of spending their lives playing for a tiny cult audience, and living in poverty!

Again, you need to understand that the punk scene is a subculture, and many bands played 8 cities in 2 weeks - and getting a bigger crowd was great most of the time, but it could be bad too. Fights could start and too much drinking & excess could lead you to never be allowed to play there again.

Far more fun to play to a group of people who were up there skanking away - and all were part of the same culture as you, rather than to a mixed crowd where you could almost guarntee that someone would take offence to some 14 year old's hair and start fighting.

An Expression of the Underclass' Anger at "the system"? Naaah! Too many of the leading punk bands (especially in America) were apolitical, for this too make much sense, and too many of the leading lights of punk wouldn't know the Underclass if they tripped over it (Joe Strummer, like many of the politically-minded punks, was a rich brat POSING as a proletarian).

Apolitical? Even by choosing not be part of the mainstream and playing punk is a political move. By being punk, you are political by the simple act of rejecting the dominant culture. By going against the mainstream, all your actions are political in that you have reject the cultural mores you therefore are outside the dominant code.

A Rebellion Against "Pompous, Pretentious" Art-Rock, and a Return to Simple, Three-Chord Rock." Naaaah! First of all, just like the art-rockers, most of the "punks" were wimpy, cerebral, pompous, art-school dropouts to begin with (geez, can you imagine the grief Keith Emerson would have gotten if he'd changed HIS name to "Keith Verlaine"?). Second, only a few punk bands (like the Ramones) fell into the simplistic three-chord pattern. Blondie and the Talking Heads, for instance, played every style imaginable BESIDES three-chord rock.

Yes there were art school dropouts in the scene, there were also many kids from blue collar homes, from white color upper class homes, and all these people thought the same thing. That they did not want to partake in conformity. The music created by these people was rejecting mainstream rock not out of spite towards the talent of the art rock musicians, but out of a desire to create something new, and something of thier own, and as many say ... something dangerous. The 70's & 80's was a "safe" saccrine culture, and in the act of rebellion - they were liberating themselves from the standards for music of the day.


Guys, I'm 41.

I am in my mid 30's - and most of the people I am involved with working on a canadian punk history site are much older than you.

There is no age limit on punk rock. The bands I speak to, and the old punks I speak to, although they have day jobs, almost everyone is still involved with punk in one way or another 15 to 25 years later.

As someone who was never part of punk, I am sure you have no way of understanding the social dynamic of punk, so quite simply I can't see how your own progressive art rock culture and the knowlege you gain from it can cross over into knowledge of punk.

One thing I always loved about the punk scene is after a gig, the band would grab a couple beers (or not - if they Minor Threat) and hang out and get to know thier audience.

There was no real classism in punk rock, the scene spanned many strata - it was about a spirit that was open and accepting. A kid could come from the burbs and go to a show, and the next day - everyone would remember his face, and he was part of the scene.

I don't agree with those who find anything that is rebelious to be punk, there were influences which created punk, and many things later have been influence by punk, but punk was and is about questioning the system, thinking for yourself, and DIY - and that spirit is the core of punk.

[crass33]

hmm...sorry, didn't know it was that easy to bring a thread back to life. I'll need to search for more. If it's so old that you don't care then don't reply.

[Miller]

hmm...sorry, didn't know it was that easy to bring a thread back to life. I'll need to search for more. If it's so old that you don't care then don't reply.

Just so's you know, it's generally considered to be bad board ettiquette to bring back threads that no has posted to for more than a month or so. There are a few perrenial exceptions (the board wouldn't be the same if someone didn't bump Cervaise's telemarketer thread every four months or so), but for the most part, if you see something in an old thread you need to respond to, it's a better idea to start a new thread, lay out your premises there, and have the debate in that thread. Bumping an old thread can be annoying because it's not immediately obvious that it's an old thread, and people feel cheated wasting their time on a stuff people said two years ago. Hell, I didn't realize this was an old thread until I came across a post from myself. Plus, the people you're responding to might not still be active members of the board, or their opinions might have changed since the thread was first active.

At any rate, although you might get some snarky comments, it's not a huge deal. Pretty sure it's not a banning offence, or anything.

Oh, and welcome to the boards.

[toque]

Has anyone caught the use of "Lust for Life" to sell fucking cruises? Another nail in the coffin.

[gluteus maximus]

Has anyone caught the use of "Lust for Life" to sell fucking cruises? Another nail in the coffin.

No, that would be another past-50 rocker on the shuffleboard deck.

[matt_mcl]

As long as I can ogle cute guys with spiky primary-coloured hair on the metro, I'm happy.

[nitroglycerine]

Punk will officially be dead the day "I Kill Everything That I Fuck" by GG Allin is used in a commercial.

Hahaha....That would be great.


I really hope punk IS dead though, because I really hate having my lifestyle and belief system of the past 25 years co-opted by the likes Good Chrarlotte fans and the mall. I almost miss those generic punk years of the 90s. Anyways....punk CAN'T be dead....The Exploited just put out a new album last year and as long as Wattie is still around......

[crass33]

again, i'm sorry, i was looking for an old post and didnt' realize this one was so old, but i dont' understand why it would annoy anyone.

[erislover]

I am in awe of people who are so sure that punk is dead because no one is like the Sex Pistols anymore. That's preposterous. The bands are still out there. Punk is people on their guitars and drums, a DIY spirit, and being pissed. If you don't feel the punk in Fugazi, what the hell did you ever see in Minor Threat? So we can name-drop Black Flag that we listened to when we were younger and say we knew what it was about, but back then when no one had heard of them and you could pop in a tape to introduce someone new to them it was part of their appeal. You can still do that, only not with Black Flag, or the Sex Pistols, or the Ramones. If that's all you have to fall back on for punk, you just stopped listening. It happens as we age. I have a hard time finding new music, but now and again it happens, I stumble upon some local band or another that just wows me like underground music should.

Anyone who thinks all musicians are in it for the money is being a little naive themselves. While I'm sure everyone would love to have a ton of money for doing what they love, you can't go into a bar that caters to local punks and think, "You know, those guys are only doing this so they can make the big bucks."

Punk dies only for those who stop listening. While I'm sure there were a million Beatles fans who wished rock would die right then in there, and like I'm sure there's 80's punk fans who think everyone should stop so their favorites stay on top, it ain't gonna happen.

[gluteus maximus]

Punk's dead because people like you didn't realize that the slogan 'punk's not dead' was invented to make you buy more music by some bands that just wanted to make money. Punk's dead because you feel the need to explain to us why it isn't. Punk was dead as soon as the mass media discovered it and packaged it, which was from the very start.

[ElwoodCuse]

Can emo be dead now too? Check out this beauty from this week's Best Buy ad:

"EMO MUSIC--artistic, deeply emotional music laced with anti-commercial undertones. It has gained its popular appeal through modern-day punk and indie rock enthusiasts."

Thanks for clearing that up, Best Buy! I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Either way, I think my head just a-sploded. Can you imagine the ad writers fretting over this? "Come on guys, the boss wants us to get older folks to buy some Get Up Kids and Yellowcard. How can we explain their music to them?"

[erislover]

Punk's dead because people like you didn't realize that the slogan 'punk's not dead' was invented to make you buy more music by some bands that just wanted to make money.What is there, some punk conspiracy now? Jesus christ.
Punk's dead because you feel the need to explain to us why it isn't.That means you killed punk by claiming it was dead, which is still preposterous. A scene isn't dead because someone says it is... if you think punk is dead, it is only because you stopped caring or listening.
Punk was dead as soon as the mass media discovered it and packaged it, which was from the very start.That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It's music. It is still being made. What more is there to say?

[Lute Skywatcher]

Just so's you know, it's generally considered to be bad board ettiquette to bring back threads that no has posted to for more than a month or so. The general rule is "don't bump threads that have been dead for three months or more." Bumping an old thread can be annoying because it's not immediately obvious that it's an old thread, and people feel cheated wasting their time on a stuff people said two years ago. Hell, I didn't realize this was an old thread until I came across a post from myself. Plus, the people you're responding to might not still be active members of the board, or their opinions might have changed since the thread was first active.Even board rules might have changed. I recently reported an OP for violating the "no joke threads in the Pit" rule but hadn't noticed that the OP in question was nearly a year old.

[ReuvenB]

If punk is dead, then yesterday was the wrong day to give myself a mohawk.

[sooperpooper]

First, hello. I apologize if I'm breaking any rules concerning first posts. Smack me and tell me I've been a bad little girl. I also apologize for talking in circles and rambling off topic. I learned it from my mother. Blame her. :rolleyes:

I don't think I'm punk, and I don't pretend to be. That would defeat the whole purpose (in my eyes) of being punk.

Punk (the music) is alive and flourishing. I can't stand it. Punk (the party hearty kind of spirit) will never die. Punk (the rebellious, anti-establishment, anarchist, disenfranchised, kill the status quo kind of spirit) will only die when these people actually stand up and do something about it. And starting a revolution sure as hell isn't a walk in the park. Believe me, I tried. People are just too damn scared of losing their jobs. Or lives, for that matter. So now I sit back and wait for the holocaust. Or plague. Or whatever.

[nitroglycerine]

If you don't feel the punk in Fugazi, what the hell did you ever see in Minor Threat?


Well, the big difference is Minor Threat ROCKED. Fugazi doesn't rock. I'm not putting down Fugazi, and I'm not saying that they're not 'punk' in the broad sense of the word. Their integrety and self-sufficiancy has been and is an inspiration to DIY, punk and indie bands of all stripes.

Their music is by no strech of the imagination "punk" though, IMHO anyway (and I have a pretty broad definition of what punk-rock is.) They''re closer to being a fucking prog-rock band than punk rock.

Bands like NOMEANSNO, Television, early (and brand new) Wire, The Feederz, Flipper, The Crucifucks had prog-rock tendencies and/or messed around with the basic formula, but they didn't lose that raw edge, that soul or whatever you want to call it that made them acceptable to the punk orthodoxy (I always wanted to say "punk orthodoxy) Fugazi doesn't have that edge. They're much to slick and shiny to be punk rock.


*Yeah, this might be an old thread but, hey, how often to we get to argue about the punk rock around here? :D

[erislover]

Well I guess that depends on how far you intend to carry the analysis. Does a punk band have to make every song punk to qualify? Take "Great Cop" off Fugazi's "In on the Kill Taker" album. That's as raw as raw can be. Sure, they have branched out and grown over the years, tried different sounds, and so on, but I don't think they've ever lost the edge, and I think they've kept a very distinctive sound.

[Saintly Loser]

Guys, I'm 41. .

Hey, Astorian -- you might already know this, but just in case, at some point in the mid-80's, can't remember exactly when, one of our local-hero (NYC) punk bands* was called -- wait for it -- the Astorians.

* They sounded like punk to me. Don't shoot me if they were actually hardcore or straightedge or whatever -- I have no idea what the difference is.

[Nutty Bunny]

No, I'll worry when I hear a Cyndi Lauper track in a commercial for adult undergarments or a Belinda Carlisle track in a commercial for a retirement home.

At that point, I'll probably die from depression and angst.

Well, since this thread was risen from the dead anyway....

The Cure's "Pictures of You" for HP and The Specials' (or Dandy Livingstone's) "Rudy (A Message to You)" for paper towels. Enough said.

And I believe "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" was used in an ad for somethingorother.

[gluteus maximus]

Well, since this thread was risen from the dead anyway....

The Cure's "Pictures of You" (new wave/alternative dance music) for HP and The Specials' (or Dandy Livingstone's) "Rudy (A Message to You)" (ska) for paper towels. Enough said.

And I believe "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" (MTV girl-pop) was used in an ad for somethingorother.

Sidney H. Vicious on a Stick!


I suppose you think those were punk songs, too?
:rolleyes:


Punk is dead because it gets included in discussions of ((gag!)) fucking 'prog rock', and because people make warm, cuddly protests about why punk's still 'alive'.


Punk's dead and you're in denial.
Punk's dead because you think you should fucking care. :o

[erislover]

Warm, cuddly protests?

[Miller]

What's your deal, anyway, glute? What's with the huge emotional investment you've got in "proving" punk is dead? I mean, who gives a shit? You don't like punk, don't listen to punk. Or just listen to old punk, or "real" punk, or whatever the fuck you're trying to say in this thread. Do you have a point, or are you just working overtime to live up to your screenname?

[Ivan-Osokin]

What what it's worth at this point, I seem to remember reading an interview with Pete Shelley of Buzzcocks in The Big Takeover around the time that the Toyota commercial using his song came out. In the interview he indicated that he wasn't even aware that it was being done until after the commercial was produced.

Not sure if they had to get his permission or not, nor whether he received any money, but I also vaguely remember him saying that it didn't bother him at all.

If I were him, I'd still be mad at the Fine Young Canibals for destroying "Ever Fallen in Love...." Then again, in another interview he stated that royalties from their cover all but kept him afloat in the mid 80s.

[Greenhorn]

I'm breaking my lurking streak, but I have to add this Onion (http://www.theonion.com/onion3919/90s_punk.html) link since no one else has. Rock on, punks!

[crass33]

I'm breaking my lurking streak, but I have to add this Onion (http://www.theonion.com/onion3919/90s_punk.html) link since no one else has. Rock on, punks!
Well, i don't really see any difference between the bands that guy hates and the ones he listens to. He's wearing a Rancid t-shirt...there's pop/punk and then there is punk. Did i miss the part where Rancid became punk?

[erislover]

Will the True Arbiter of PunkTM please stand.

[nitroglycerine]

Will the True Arbiter of PunkTM please stand.

Tim Yohannon's dead, so he might have a hard time standing :D

[gluteus maximus]

What's your deal, anyway, glute? What's with the huge emotional investment you've got in "proving" punk is dead? I mean, who gives a shit? You don't like punk, don't listen to punk. Or just listen to old punk, or "real" punk, or whatever the fuck you're trying to say in this thread. Do you have a point, or are you just working overtime to live up to your screenname?
What the fuck are you slobbering about? Just where did it seem to you that I made any emotional statements? If you don't give a shit, fuck off and don't post stupid questions. I never said I don't like punk. I said punk's dead. If you can't fucking recognize a fucking point when you fuckin read one, that's fucking not my fucking fault in any fucking way whatsofuckingever. Congratufuckinglations on translating fucking Latin, oh fucking grinder of copulating grain!



FUCK-OFF, Miller,
YOU FUCKWAD!





Just a little emotion for ya there, since you seemed to be unsure of what 'emotion' means.

[gluteus maximus]

If punk is dead, then yesterday was the wrong day to give myself a mohawk.

The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead.

[erislover]

What the fuck are you slobbering about? Just where did it seem to you that I made any emotional statements?He didn't say you made emotional statements. But thanks for playing.

[gluteus maximus]

He didn't say you made emotional statements. But thanks for playing.

Oh, excuse the hell out of me, Dear Nearly Ten Thousand Poster, you wanker. Go play with yourself.

Butt, whole...



Please allow me to re-state my query:



What the fuck are you slobbering about? Just where did it seem to you that I made any fucking emotional investment?



Better?

Happy now?


Are you beginning to fucking feel some dead punkiness now?

[erislover]

Oh I am exceedingly happy now. Thank you very much. I am not feeling punk's death yet, but I am feeling that you have a rather strange conviction about it, asserting it over and over, getting worked up. One might say you have an emotional investment in the matter. Yep, one might.

Not me, though. Clearly you don't care about the issue at all.

[lexi]

Never could get people who can proclaim about punk death- and weren't part of the scene. Maybe they are proclaiming the death of what they thought as outsiders about punk?

If you look around - 25 years after punk was first proclaimed dead - there still are new bands in local scenes, new kids, kids of punks who are punks, parents who cringe at thier kids music because it is too mainstream, and parents who are glad the kids aren't the rebels they were.

Me - I am in my mid 30's and I am still part of punk, and no - I don't think it is dead.

Because punk is a subculture - how can those outside of the scene, or who never were part of it know what punk is - and therefore have enough knowledge to proclaim it to be dead.