Animals: As worthy as people?

[Stoid]

Some of you may have been reading my thread about the loss of my dog Sophie (nearly 17 years old, with me her whole life).

I expressed at one point that my grief over my dog feels more immediate and profound than the grief I felt for my sister who died last year. At least one poster said he was disturbed to hear this and that my perspective was misshapen, essentially asserting that while yes, we care for animals and can feel sad, it is inappropriate to feel and care for them on a level equal to humans.

I disagree. I think that animals are, or can be, as deserving of our deepest love and affection as any human. I do not think that humans are "better" than animals, I think that animals are merely different, and they are creatures which can win my love and affection just as profoundly and meaningfully as humans can.

I would love to get into this more, but it is to start you all off, and I am still a bit too distracted to delve deeper at this moment.

I'll be interested to hear whatcha all have to say on the matter.



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We do precision guesswork

[BoBettie]

I'm with ya- this could be a Great Debate, I'm not sure...I can tell you this- sick or not- I would be much more upset if my dog (who is the love of my life, second only to my husband) died then if my own mother did. Why? My mother is a bad person, my dog is a good friend. My dog has spent more time with me in the last 3 years then my mother has in the last 28 year. Nuff said? Not pretty, just true.

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An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity; A pessimist sees a calamity in every opportunity.

[Stoid]

Wow, you aren't my sister, are you?

My sisters and I often reflect upon the fact that we do not anticipate an undue amount of grief over our mother's passing, and all three of us have lost animals recently and it was devastating.



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We do precision guesswork

[Big Iron]

Forget what Cheesehead said -- he (she?) certainly lived up to the name on that thread.

People must be deemed more "worthy" under the law, but there is nothing inherently more worthy about people. I care more about the dogs and cats I know personally than I do about any number of strangers out there.

[kayT]

Does the cheeseball think that if you love your dog a lot you must love your sister less? Does he think if you miss your dog who lived with you more than your sister who didn't that somehow you have insulted your sister? Phooey. The daily life makes it different. Also the pet's unquestioning affection is so much easier to love and so much harder to do without. Now I'm "puffy-eyed here at work" but it's ok. Stoidela, I am so sorry for your loss and I appreciate your two threads that reminded me to take a minute to mourn my lost kitty.

[Stoid]

The more time I spend on this board, the more I think that Cecil should feel proud indeed of the level of fan he attracts.

:)

[jazzmine]

I have always preferred my animals to most people I've met and to all strangers.

I definitely think animals are equal or even more worthy in a few cases. I get equally upset at the animal abuse cases as I do child abuse. All are helpless.

trisha

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He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice - Albert Einstein

[Troy McClure SF]

Stoidela, amen.
Dogs (my animal of choice) rarely are vengeful, sarcastic, pissy or all the other stuff people can be.
In fact, a good dog is always there, and, what they say is true, if heaven doesn't have dogs, it wouldn't be heaven.

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--
JMcC from SFCA
http://members.tripod.com/~weirdstuff/index.html

[SoxFan59]

I do not wish to demean the value of relationships between people and animals. Though I've never been big on pets, my neighbor recently lost a beloved dog due to age and disease, and it was a tough time. We all loved that dog, and she will be sorely missed.

But this concept of "animals are as good as people" when not anchored to other principles, can lead to absurdities.

For example, dogs and cats I understand (to a point), but where do we draw the line? What about animals bred for food? Is a cow or a pig deserving of the same consideration? Will those of you who are teary eyed over Fido's loss then sit down to a cheesburger?

And what happens when animals really become as important as people? Is it OK for the ship's captain to bring his faithful dog along on the life boat, while a crew member drowns? Don't have the plow horse pull that load out that muddy hole. We need to treat that horse right, to consrve its energy and because it cost a ton of money. Besides, that horse is like a child to me, we're so close. No, I won't let that horse over exert itself. That's what the plantation slaves are for. Besides, they're cheaper by the dozen.

Again, please realize that I am NOT belittling folks like Stoidela who have close and loving relationships with pets. I am just concerned that we cannot value animals on the same plane as humans.

But, the way our world is, humans are often treated like animals anyway, or worse.

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SoxFan59
"Its fiction, but all the facts are true!"

[GregAtlanta]

Soxfan59 outlines the philosophical dilemma pretty well. I have to agree that when you get right down to it, no, animals aren't equal to humans at all.
But that doesn't mean that you're wrong at all to feel true, sincere, deep sorrow for the loss of an animal close to you. The animal doesn't have to be "equal" to a human to justify that feeling. And yes, I'll feel much more sorrow for the loss of my 12-year-old dog than I will for any number of strangers and even some acquaintances.
But if my dog and some stranger were drowning, I'd have to go for the stranger first. Then I'd cry like a baby for my dog.
-- Greg, Atlanta

[Gazelle]

This is a tough one. I grew up with a beautiful chocolate Lab named Fish. She is the only close relative (yes, I consider her a family member) of mine who has died. (So far, of course.) She passed away after I had left home... I'd been gone about six months and was devastated. I realized that the main reason for my deep grief was that I wasn't sure if she knew I loved her. I think she did, but who knows what went on in her doggy brain when I left and didn't come back?

I consider my current dog Crease (http://www.funstuf.net/canthear.htm) a member of my family now. My husband, OTOH, has never had a pet. He cannot understand my demonstrative love of Crease (I hug her and kiss her) or my need to apologize to her if I accidentally run into her, step on her tail, etc.

It's definitely a Great Debate.

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Most common question I ask: "What?"
Most common question I get: "Are you really hearing impaired?"

It depends entirely on what person and what animal. I have friends and relatives who are much more important to me than my cats. But I know other people who could drop dead today and I wouldn't turn a hair--while I will be very upset when my cats eventually die.

That having been said, if I saw a car speeding toward a cat and a person, I would push the person out of the way first (not knowing the cat's and person's individual personalities).

However, if I saw a car speeding toward one of MY cats and an uncle I detest, kitty would be in luck . . .

[Big Iron]

If it's a choice between a dog I know and love and a stranger I know not at all, I think I'm gonna save the dog if I can save only one of them.

[BunnyGirl]

Stoi, sorry to hear about your pup. I'm sure you gave her a wonderful life! :`(

Sometimes I feel that since animals don't have the cognitive skills people do, they are to be protected more. What I mean by this is I almost feel more sorry for the abused dog than the abused woman. Blasphemy, you say! No, not really. The woman can make a choice. Animals can't. Disclaimer: This is a generalization. Do not read into it special circumstances or the story about your neighbor's sister's friend etc etc.

[Cheese Head]

SoxFan, thanks for bringing some humanity and sanity to this thread. For me, humans, including strangers and relatives I don't like, will always have more rights than animals, even my pets. The only possible exception I can think of is violent criminals and belligerent war leaders.

[BunnyGirl]

Let me add one thing before I get my hiney flamed:

I would do everything in my power to help any person I saw that was being abused. However, people have free will. They can think. They have to make their own choices even if help is offered them. Animals/pets are more dependant on us and do not have the luxury to say "Hey this guy is beating me up. I think I'll run away and see if I can't pick me up a new owner down at the grocery store parking lot."

[Stoid]

Bunnygirl:

You nailed it, I think. It's the helplessness and lack of understanding. As you say, at least a person understands what's happening when they are hurting, being abused, etc. Small children, animals, and the mentally disabled are always more heartwrenching when they are harmed, either physically or emotionally.

I can be pragmatic, though - particularly in the service of my affection and respect for animals. Does anyone remember some years back when the three whales didn't get outta dodge soon enough and they were stuck in the ice up by the pole or Alaska or somewhere? Remember that they ended up spending one Meeeelion dollars trying to save them? That annoyed me, simply because it was obvious we were seeing natural selection in action, and if you are going to sepnd that kind of money saving animals (and YES, PLEASE DO!!! - Animal charities are about the only ones I contribute to) use it more productively to save MANY animals, not three whales that blew it.

I think that people as a species, while our intelligence and handiness around the house is pretty nifty, are no better than any other creature, and often much worse. I think that people who say we are are being self-serving, really. "We are better because we have the ability to think so, say so, and push everyone else around!". Well, that's a bit circular, in my opinion, not to mention the ultimate in "might makes right" thinking.

And yeah, as I've said on these boards before, I am a carnivore. This does not conflict in any way with my love of animals. It is natural for animals, including us, to eat other animals. What is NOT natural, and what I have a big problem with, is toroturing animals with hellish living conditions in preparation for their becoming lunch. That is unnecessary and indefensible.

Done for now.

Stoid - still thinking and crying over her Soph.

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We do precision guesswork

[AWB]

SoxFan59: But this concept of "animals are as good as people" when not anchored to other principles, can lead to absurdities.

For example, dogs and cats I understand (to a point), but where do we draw the line? What about animals bred for food? Is a cow or a pig deserving of the same consideration? Will those of you who are teary eyed over Fido's loss then sit down to a cheesburger?

We only love cute animals. Cows and pigs are ugly and tasty. Hence, they're dinner.

Or, if they're cute, but their fur is nice and warm, then BAM! They're a jacket.

Or, if they're cute, no fur, but their bodies contain lots of easily-synthesized hydrocarbons and body parts that supposedly increase human sex drive, then their oil & aphrodesiacs.

[BoBettie]

I just want to say that this really is not a big debate, it's just a personal decision based on everyones individual experiences. I said earlier that if my mom died, it would not be as big a deal as if my beloved dog died. However, if my HUSBAND died, it would be a much, much bigger deal. The point here is that it all depends on your personal dealings with different humans and animals- no one is right or wrong (I don't think). And incidentally, if I had to choose between a human stranger to save and my beloved dog, I would choose the human, and grieve my dog terribly. However, if my house were on fire, you can bet your ass I would burn before I let my pets die, and stupid or not, that's a fact.

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An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity; A pessimist sees a calamity in every opportunity.

[Big Iron]

[[SoxFan, thanks for bringing some humanity and sanity to this thread. For me, humans, including strangers and relatives I don't like, will always have more rights than animals, even my pets.]] Cheesehead


SoxFan is a fine and bright poster, but I'm afraid there was no shortage of humanity or sanity prior to his post.

Legal rights, sure (as I already emphasized). Beyond that, I can't imagine what you mean.

[Satan]

We must as a society like our pets better than other people...

When a pet is old, and/or ill to the point where it's quality of life deteriorates, it is very common to put them to sleep and end the suffering.

When a person is old and/or ill to the point where his or her quality of life deteriorates, ending the human's suffering - even though the human may be all for the idea, and we'll never know what our pet is really thinking - results in a murder charge for anyone who dare assist.

The sound you heard was a can of worms opening...

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Brian O'Neill
CMC International Records
rockuniverse.com/cmc/cmc.html (http://rockuniverse.com/cmc/cmc.html)

ICQ 35294890
AIM Scrabble1
Yahoo Messenger Brian_ONeill

[Rich Barr]

The dividing line here is obviously between who you care about--human, animal, and perhaps even plant--and who you don't. I see nothing at all wrong with this.

There is an old quotation (I don't remember who said it) which I will paraphrase as "If I had to choose between betraying my friend or my country, I hope I would betray my country." Loyalty must diminish with distance, or there is no real loyalty at all.

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Nature abhors a vacuum, which means there are a lot of people whose brains are in mortal peril.

[Stoid]

Excellent topic, Satan. Should probably be moved.

But I'll step up to the plate right here.

I don't think it has much to do with who we love more, it has alot to do with fear. I think almost everyone, even alot of the people who formally oppose legalized euthanasia for people, recognize that it is often kinder to take people out than let them go on their own. The problem is the slippery slope.

Let's look at dogs as our example. (And of course, I know it would never get as bad with people, I'm just presenting the thinking) Many people have their animals put to sleep when they are perfectly healthy, for no other reason than that they are inconvenienced by their continued life. Or put them down for stupid things like blindness or a missing limb, things that a dog could easily live through and be perfectly happy. Happier than alot of people (dogs don't dwell).

I think opponents of human euthanasia don't want to see us rushing to say goodby to Mom beause its getting expensive to keep her.

I euthanized Sophie, and it was the hardest decision I'veever faced. But the final making of it was easy, because while she wasn't yet in agony, she had begun to bleed internally and it wouldn't be long before she was in pain. So helping her out was easy. But I'd be looking at doing it for days beforehand and tormented all the way.

My sister had two strokes. After the second one she couldn't swallow. She had left a document stating in no uncertain terms, and great detail, that she wanted to die if something like that happened. It woul dhave taken a feeding tube and alot of other stuff to keep her going and she didn't want it. So we took her home, doped her up on morphine, and watched her slowly fade out from starvation and dehydration. It probably would hav ebeen easier just to give her a shot. Who knows whether she suffered in those last 48 hours? I don't.



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[Stoid]

More stuff I'm gonna do to prepare (just in case)

get a basic checkup
try and get my doc to give me a broadbased anti-biotic to have on hand
renew my driver's license (due for next year...if any agency is going to be screwed up, it's the DMV)
Print out/request copies of every important document of my life, especially financial and insurance records
See my optometrist and get plenty of contacts and a new pair of glasses, and stock up bigtime on supplies for same.

Basically, think: what might I need next year? Well, I will make sure I have it THIS year....just in case.

[UncleBeer]

I think a distinction needs to be made, and probably already has been made in this thread, between animals and pets. The cow or oyster being bred for human consumption has no more inherent worth than a potatoe or mushroom cultivated for the same purpose.

Animals, when kept as pets seem to develop a personality over time and we tend to anthropomorphize them. They then are valued as people, but probably only by their owner.

That being said, I might run into a burning house to retrive any child or even my own dog, but probably not your dog.

One final irreverent thought, and I'm sure I'm gonna get in trouble for this one: "Of course animals are as worthy as people, but only as a food source."

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Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure.
- Ambrose Bierce

[Stoid]

That last post of mine? Duh...meant for a different thread. I spaced.

Duh.

[Big Iron]

[[Animals, when kept as pets seem to develop a personality over time and we tend to anthropomorphize them. ]]


It would be much more accurate to say that we learn just how similar we are to them, and vice versa.

[Doobieous]

Recently, we had to put our 13 year old Australian Shepherd to sleep. The reason was, she suffered two strokes, and was quickly deteriorating. We did not put her to sleep because she was arthritic, we kept her til the very end. Anyway, i really didn't feel too much sadness. I do miss her, but mostly it was relief because she was in a lot of pain and losing control over herself.

That said, if an animal needs a life saving operation, such as a heart transplant, i would not pay the money for it. It may seem cold hearted but Financially, it is not a necessary thing (if a relative had a disease or needed a transplant i would help with that). If an animal and a person were in danger of being killed, i would save the person.

[BoBettie]

I love my dog like he's my child. If he needed a lifesaving operation I would do everything in my power to see to it that he got it. Just my opinion, they way I am. I would do the same for a child or my husband. My pets are one of the family, period.

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An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity; A pessimist sees a calamity in every opportunity.

[Byzantine]

I responded to another post of yours before I read this one. I guess it really doesn't matter. I'd tell the same story about my brother and that pain. My dog is right now sitting at my feet and I can feel tears mar my face at the thought of when I will have to face losing her. She's been my ‘hairy little girl' for three wonderful years. In fact, I stole her from a neighbor (who pounded the shit out of her in my sight) a month before the loss of my brother. She is as precious to me as I suppose someone else's child is to them because she IS my child. My father and mother know my views on marriage and children and they treat her like a grandchild since this is as close as they are going to get from me.

I don't think the pain is any less and somewhere in the thread I remember reading that we should feel the same about all animals or something about eating a burger after mourning the loss of a pet and I have to disagree with that whole idea: a cow is raised to be eaten. It is not a pet. When I lived on a farm this was the first hard lesson I had to learn. I know, seems convenient, but I don't feel the same for cows as I do for my dog (and my cats). If someone else out there has this ability I truly do applaud you for it and I'm not trashing you; I just don't feel the same.

Again, my heart goes out to you and my ‘hairy little girl' gives a woof of commiseration.

[Byzantine]

One last thought: I read another post about how we only eat the 'ugly' animals and I'm not sure if that was said in jest (Dennis Leary does a great bit on this) but I would have to add that to me a cow is food; to another (in India) cows are sacred. If I lived there I'd respect that and if I were born and reared there my view would be completely different. Also, there are places (where escapes me but I'm sure someone will point it out) where dogs are raised as cattle. I don't hate this practice at all. I couldn't do it but I respect their right to do this and even see why it is economically more feasible than raising cattle. I guess it comes back to how you see the animal: Pet or food.

[Stoid]

Zette:

Yer my kinda people. (Just make sure, if you are ever faced with it, that the choices you make aren't based in your selfishness in not wanting to let go. Sometimes your love is best expressed, and at its most selfless and courageous, when you can give them an easy end before life becomes an agony. I just went through it, I know. I was scrambling liek mad to keep Sophie going, but then it took a nasty turn. She would certainly have died within 24 hours, but it would have been an agonizing death. And having the world's most compassionate and caring vet there, in my home, helping her ease peacefully and painlessly from this world, was the kindest and most loving thing I could do for her.)



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He who laughs last thinks slowest.

[Stoid]

Pets or Meat?

As far as this whole thing goes, I think cows are just adorable. Those big eyes, long lashes. And if I personally owned a cow, I could probably never eat that same cow.

But I dont' think there's anything wrong with eating meat. What I've said before, and I'll keep saying it: we should not, must not, be cruel to them in life. Modern animal husbandry is a cruel farce, and I hate it. Just because the animals will end up, AFTER they are dead, on someone's plate, is NO excuse to make them suffer a hellish life.

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He who laughs last thinks slowest.

[Stoid]

I dunno...what if the person in question was 86? I was told of Sophie's cancer about 6 months ago. She was 16 1/2. I didn't even bother to have tests run to get the details. It had nothing to do with a lack of love, it had to do with being realistic. She was already on the other side of ancient in dog years (by some estimates of dog to human years, she was 100 years old). What would be the point of putting her through the hell of treatment? Gain another 6 months...MAYBE?

However, if she had developed cancer at 8? I would have done everything I could. When she went blind, I happened to be seriously broke, barely making the rent. So I formed a "foundation" "Save Sophie's Sight" and begged money from everyone I ever knew to try and do what I could to save it. I spent $1000 for tests and treatment, but it didn't work. She went completely blind and just entered a new phase of life. (Someone said something I thought was kind of nice: dogs don't understand that they are blind or deaf. They jsut think the world is getting really dark and quiet. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.)

Anyway, my point is that we all die, dogs and people alike, and there is an upper limit to our lifetimes. How hard do you fight for life at 50? With everything you've got. At 70? Still damn hard. At 90? You fight not to be in pain.

I love what the longest lived woman on record (121, I think) said when she was asked how she saw her future when she was around 110. Her answer? "Short".



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We do precision guesswork

[StStella]

Doobious, I agree and would like to add also that animals (I'll use dogs in this example)don't understand what's happening to them. My dog Watson had a tumor on his leg and the vet removed it and suggested I get it biopsied (sp) and I had to start thinking about what I would do if he had cancer. I love my dog and I don't know that I would put him through chemo or other procedures to prolong his life. He wouldn't know that I was trying to help him, he would only know that he hurts and everytime I take him for treatments, he hurts again. All this would selfish on my part, because I would put him through all of the suffering so that I get to spend more time with him.

I have two dogs and I can't imagine how I will feel when their old and I have to make such a hard decision. I just hope I can look past my own feelings and do what's best for the dogs.

[StStella]

Stoidella- you got your reply in so fast, mine looks really redundant. I'm sorry for your loss and it sounds like your dog was very lucky indeed to have you for so long.

[StStella]

Stoidella- you got your reply in so fast, mine looks really redundant. I'm sorry for your loss and it sounds like your dog was very lucky indeed to have you for so long.

[Cheese Head]

"We must as a society like our pets better than other people...

When a pet is old, and/or ill to the point where it's quality of life deteriorates, it is very common to put them to sleep and end the suffering.

When a person is old and/or ill to the point where his or her quality of life deteriorates, ending the human's suffering - even though the human may be all for the idea, and we'll never know what our pet is really thinking - results in a murder charge for anyone who dare assist."

Interesting point, but here is another one. We spend lots of money on health insurance and for people. Do we spend money on health insurance for pets? No. Fortunately, society values people's health more.

[Big Iron]

[[Fortunately, society values people's health more.]] Cheesehead


Seeing as "society" is made up exclusively of human beings, that hardly seems surprising.

I'd still rescue my dog before I'd go get 3/4 of you Dopers (much less complete strangers). And I suspect most right-thinking people (note: loaded term) would do the same.

[Stoid]

Cheese:

That's an odd assessment. it's not as though "society" proved s health insurance for people whom it "values". Capitalists provide health insurance for profit.

And, as it happens helath insurance IS available for pets.

I guess that means we value them, huh?

[OpalCat]

For example, dogs and cats I understand (to a point), but where do we draw the line? What about animals bred for food? Is a cow or a pig deserving of the same consideration? Will those of you who are teary eyed over Fido's loss then sit down to a cheesburger?

No, I won't, and I haven't for over 13 years since the first time, at age 14, that it occurred to me that I had that choice.

Animals, when kept as pets seem to develop a personality over time and we tend to anthropomorphize them.

You obviously don't understand animals. "seem" to develop a personality? What horseshit. You are probably the type who would raise a pet the way they take care of a knick knack on a shelf. Personal opinion: your kind of person should never have pets or children. Actually, I wish there were a way of screening society so that I wouldn't have to come in contact with that sort of person ever, at all. People who can't understand and relate to animals lack something in their personalities that I consider to be essential.

As for other comments: there is indeed health insurance for pets. If you think otherwise you're just being ignorant.
I would spend whatever it took to save my pets, if there were a chance that they would have a good life afterward. We recently spent over $2,000 on vet bills to save two of our cats from liver failure; our dog recently ate on of my son's toys and we were faced with the possibility of a $1,000+ surgery which we would have paid without hesitation (fortunately he was able to throw it up while he was hospitalized).

You can carry on as much as you like, but I will never be swayed from the opinion that there is very little that separates humans from any other type of animal.

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