Andrew Jackson

[Daoloth]

Note- I'm starting this in GD since I intend for it to become a political argument.

The Query: Does Andrew Jackson deserve to be on the $20 bill. Why or why not?

I, personally, do not know enough about Jackson to comment. However, I know he was a good commander in the War of 1812, but that he also was behind the atrocity known as the Trail of Tears.

So, is he worthy?

[Duck Duck Goose]

From Grolier's, billed as "An encyclopedic biography written for 3-8 grade students." :D

http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/nbk/bios/07pjack.html
Andrew Jackson made such a lasting impression upon his times that the period when he was PRESIDENT is usually called the Age of Jackson or the Era of Jacksonian Democracy. As the victor in the battle of New Orleans, during the War of 1812, he was one of the nation's most famous military heroes. As president he stood for equality of opportunity for the common man, for the right of ordinary Americans to better themselves. The average American responded by taking a far more active interest in politics than ever before. When Jackson was first inaugurated, in 1829, one admirer wrote, "It was a proud day for the people--General Jackson is their own president!"...

http://www.20best.com/20best/people/Presidents.asp
20 Greatest Presidents in U.S. History

7. Andrew Jackson (1829-1837)
As president, Jackson greatly expanded the power and prestige of the presidential office and carried through an unprecedented program of domestic reform, vetoing the bill to extend the United States Bank, moving toward a hard-money currency policy, and checking the program of federal internal improvements. He also vindicated federal authority against South Carolina with its doctrine of nullification and against France on the question of debts. The support given his policies by the workingmen of the East as well as by the farmers of the East, West, and South resulted in his triumphant re-election in 1832 over Clay.

[Duckster]

For background information on Jackson concerning his victory at the Battle of New Orleans, attempt to find Robin Reilly's British At The Gates.
The British at the Gates was first published in 1974 by Putnam's, New York, and Cassell, London, and in the view of many experts it remains the best account of the Battle of New Orleans and the events that preceded it. It was an American Military History Book Club Choice in 1974.

Source: http://www.rbstudiobooks.com/reilly.html

I have an original first edition because I used to work at the battlefield. In fact, I was there during a major archeological find when we confirmed the historical record against the physical remains. It was thought the Mississippi River in its meanderings had eroded some 800 feet of the battlefield. However, our archeological dig found less than 100 feet had eroded since 1812. We found the gun emplacement for the American's biggest cannon, a 32-pounder.

(It was this cannon that the 93rd Highlanders suffered a devastating blow. The Americans had picked off all of the Highlander's officers, leaving them not more than 150 feet directly in front of the 32-pounder. British military tactics at that time meant following orders to the inth degree with no deviation. With all of their officers killed or wounded, the last orders the Highlanders were given was to remain at attention. The American 32-pounder made it a crap shoot of the kilts and bagpipes. :D )

Among other evidence, original maps, other accounts and Reilly's book, we found significant evidence that Jackson's tactics were superb. Along with LaFitte's Baratarian's, the undermanned and outgunned Americans defeated the world's greatest military at that time.

We calculated the battle itself lasted probably less than an hour. The American suffered 13 casualties (dead and wounded) to the more than 2,500 of the British.

The battle was a decisive victory. Had the British won, they would have taken New Orleans, some six miles upriver, split the country in half, and gained total control of the Mississippi / Missouri / Ohio Rivers trade routes.

(Teachers continue to spell out the battle was a mistake because the Treaty of Ghent ending the War of 1812 had been signed several weeks earlier. This is simplistic and historically hollow. What teachers and most people fail to understand is that Jackson had no knowledge of the treaty. More importantly, the British commander, General Edward Pakenham was under orders to ignore any potential treaty rumors. Had Pakenham won at New Orleans, the British would have torn up the treaty and continued the war. It is distinctly possible had the British won, America would in time cease to exist. BTW, the Battle of New Orleans is technically the last time a foreign power attacked the USA on its home soil. At least until September 11 of last year.)

Jackson controlled a lean, weaned fighting machine of regulars, rag-tags and Baratarians. He knew where and when the British would attack and put all his eggs in one basket to stop them. Notwithstanding some very serious blunders on account of Pakenham, Jackson's victory is of historical importance to this day.

[The Hamster King]

Personally I'd like to see him off the bill and replaced with one of the Roosevelts. But then my great-great-great grandfather was on the Trail of Tears, so you could say it's a family grudge ... .

[Tars Tarkas]

Well, if we are gonna wipe all Indian killers off our money, then we need to get rid of George Washington, aka "Town Destroyer" cite (http://users.aol.com/Donh523/navapage/seneca.htm)

$2.00.............
Jefferson has letters where he wrote that he believed Indians were equal with whites. letter (http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/images/vc153.jpg) from here (http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jeffwest.html)
Part about blacks ommited
And I am safe in affirming that the proofs of genius given by the Indians of N. America, place them on a level with Whites in the same uncultivated state . . . . I believe the Indian then to be in body & mind equal to the whiteman.

But also says"if ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond the Mississippi."

but here (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/features/waljef/writings4.html) says that he encourages Indians to become assimilated. So Jefferson was for destruction of the Indian identity. So he's out.

$5.00..............
And goodbye Lincoln for doing nothing about Bosque Redondo.
What that was. (http://www.southernnewmexico.com/snm/redondo.html)

Lets move on to the $50....

Here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/grant/peopleevents/p_ugrant.html) Grant is said to have met with Red Cloud (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/grant/peopleevents/p_redcloud.html) to try to develop a peace treaty. (more info on the Red Cloud link). But stupid Custer had to go die in 1876, so whites begane an extermination campaign (Grant left office in 1877, so he was around to start that. So goodbye General!

now the $100...

Franklin opposed the massacre (http://chemistry.mtu.edu/PAGES/HISTORY/BenjaminFranklin.html)of indians like ones that happened because of response to Pontiac's Rebellion. (http://ndnd.essortment.com/pontiacsrebelli_rbzw.htm)

I couldn't find any damning info on him, so he can stay for now.


$500... (McKinley!!!!)

McKinley (http://www.americanpresident.org/kotrain/courses/WM/WM_In_Brief.htm) was president for the Spanish-American War, which turned the US into a colonial power. When the Phillipeans revolted (http://www.americanpresident.org/kotrain/courses/WM/WM_Foreign_Affairs.htm), he sent lots of troops and the US got atrocity charges. So bye bye McKinley!!

$1000....(Cleveland!!!)
The Clevelans indians. Need i say more?? (just kidding!)

Was President (http://userpages.umbc.edu/~cgehrm1/pres_site/presidents/gc.html)during the Apache wars, when Geronomo surrendered. And he thought Indians should be assmilated (http://www.americanpresident.org/kotrain/courses/GC/GC_In_Brief.htm)into white society.

Bye Bye!!!


$5000....(Madison!!!)

Here is the father of the constitution justifying stealing Indian land Letter to Monroe (http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_3_indianss2.html)

Kiss the Great Little President goodbye...

$10,000...(Salmon P. Chase!!!)
Chase (http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/Chase.html) defended slaves and was Lincoln's Secretary during the war. I couldn't find any anti-Indian stuff from him. He can stay for now.

$100,000...(Wilson!!!)

Wilson (http://www.americanpresident.org/kotrain/courses/WW/WW_In_Brief.htm) admitted there were dark deals done against the indians, but said that (http://www.historychannel.com/cgi-bin/frameit.cgi?p=http%3A//www.historychannel.com/speeches/archive/speech_313.html) the US overall was "wise, just, and benevolent."

Ha! Bye Bye!!!

[Tars Tarkas]

D'oh!! forgot the $10!!!!

I didn't find anything against Hamilton, so he can stay for now as well....

[Duck Duck Goose]

Keep him.

http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/B/hamilton/hamil05.htm
On September 18, Hamilton led a small force to destroy a flour warehouse before the advancing British troops could confiscate it, and was almost killed when British scouts fired on his party. His horse was shot, and Hamilton was forced to swim across the Schuylkill river to safety.

< snip >

...Gates himself challenged Washington's position by sending notification of his victory directly to Congress, rather than through Washington as was proper protocol.

More hurt than indignant, Washington found himself in the embarrassing position of needing Gates' assistance. With the northern positions secure, he needed extra troops to defend the area around Philadelphia. Knowing the delicacy of the mission, the General sent Hamilton to request the troops from Gates.

Although feigning cheerful compliance with the order delivered by the young aide (Hamilton was twenty-two at the time), Gates apparently tried to take advantage of Hamilton's youth by passing off his smallest and weakest brigade. Hamilton, wise beyond his years, was not so easily fooled. He demanded that Gates hand over better men...
He's not stupid, and he can swim. What more could you ask? :D




oh, yeah, he also basically designed the entire financial system of the United States government

[ssj_man2k]

I think Jackson should be taken off the 20 dollar bill. Not only is he responsible for the Trail of Tears, but he was also practically a tyrant. If he were president today, he would have been impeached already. While "King Veto" may have been for the common man, his use of the spoils system was sickening. The only good thing about Jackson was that he fought against Biddle and all that corruption.

[Tars Tarkas]

So from now on, only bankers on the paper money, and Indians on the coins. I can live with that.

::returns to stack of gold dollars that he pretends are pirate treasure::

[Liberal]

As president he stood for equality of opportunity for the common man, for the right of ordinary Americans to better themselves.In May, 1838, federal troops, under orders from Jackson, began rounding up Cherokee people and putting them in stockades. Given only moments to collect what little they owned, they were forced out of their homes at gunpoint. Many families were separated, and no one cared for the ill and elderly.

By November, 12,000 were making the 800 mile march. Starvation, disease, and exhaustion claimed the lives of some 4,000 — about a fifth of the Cherokee people. One woman, who later died at Little Rock, wrote:

Long time we travel on way to new land. People feel bad when they leave Old Nation. Womens cry and make sad wails, Children cry and many men cry...but they say nothing and just put heads down and keep on go towards West. Many days pass and people die very much.

[pldennison]

Tars, you forgot Harry S. Truman on the trillion dollar bill (http://www.snpp.com/episodes/5F14). ;)

[Guinastasia]

Isn't there a movement (albeit a small one) to put Reagan on the ten dollar bill?

[Duckster]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Isn't there a movement (albeit a small one) to put Reagan on the ten dollar bill?

Well ... :)

Just one problem with that.

Now what was I saying?


Nancy?


Nancy?


:D

[Tars Tarkas]

Well, since i had to listen to a long boring speech by some Truman-phile at my sister's graduation (Trumans State Universitry, Kirksville, MO), I say take him off money as well just out of spite!

[David Simmons]

Originally posted by Duckster
BTW, the Battle of New Orleans is technically the last time a foreign power attacked the USA on its home soil. At least until September 11 of last year.)

[nitpick/hijack] Actually a Japanese submarine shelled Goleta, CA at the beginning of WWII. This Site (http://sandysq.gcinet.net/uss_salt_lake_city_ca25/ca-1942.htm). Or This One (http://www.school-for-champions.com/history/sbattack.htm)

The second cited site says the "news was suppressed but that isn't true. I read about it and heard it on the radio news at the time. There is also mention of a floatplane "dropping incendiary bombs" in Oregon, which was also supposedly suppressed. If this happened it was suppressed as far as I remember, because I never heard of it. Some balloon borne incendiaries did land in the northwest. Japanese Balloons (http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/wwii/jbb.htm)[/nitpick/hijack]

[Northern Piper]

Originally posted by Duckster


Well ... :)

Just one problem with that.

Now what was I saying?


Nancy?


Nancy?


:D Nice slam at someone suffering from an incurable mental disabilty.

[Northern Piper]

[digression]

Does anyone have the name and cite for the Supreme Court decision re the Trail of Tears? The one that Jackson refused to implement?

[David Simmons]

Originally posted by Northern Piper
[digression]

Does anyone have the name and cite for the Supreme Court decision re the Trail of Tears? The one that Jackson refused to implement? Cherokee Nation court decisions (http://www.ngeorgia.com/history/nghisttt.html)

Quote from the cite

"In Cherokee Nation vs. Georgia, the Court refused to hear a case extending Georgia's laws on the Cherokee because they did not represent a sovereign nation. In 1832, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Cherokee on the same issue in Worcester vs. Georgia. In this case Chief Justice John Marshall ruled that the Cherokee Nation was sovereign, making the removal laws invalid. The Cherokee would have to agree to removal in a treaty. The treaty then would have to be ratified by the Senate."

I think the second one was the one that Jackson ignored.

[tracer]

And weren't the Creek Indians rounded up in the Trail of Tears along with the Cherokee?



(Incidentally, my entire knowledge of the Battle of New Orleans comes from the song. Darn it, you got me thinking about bacon and beans now!)

[Northern Piper]

Thanks, David.

[Liberal]

Yes, thanks, David.

-----

Tracer

And weren't the Creek Indians rounded up in the Trail of Tears along with the Cherokee?Yes, they were. Some 3,500 Creek Indians died in Alabama alone. Also brutalized were Seminole, Chickasaw, and Choctaw people. In all, estimates are that 100,000 people were cattle-driven westward. No one knows how many died. It was a horrible event.

Private John G. Burnett, Captain Abraham McClellan's Company, 2nd Regiment, 2nd Brigade, Mounted Infantry, wrote:

I saw the helpless Cherokees arrested and dragged from their homes, and driven at the bayonet point into stockades. And in the chill of a drizzling rain on an October morning I saw them loaded like cattle or sheep into six hundred and forty-five wagons and started toward the west.

[Spoke]

I have some recommended reading for this thread. Others have mentioned the hazards of judging historical figures by 21st century standards. Andrew Jackson and His Indian Wars (http://www.bookpage.com/0107bp/nonfiction/andrew_jackson.html) by Robert V. Remeni, while it is not an apologist work, and certainly does not absolve Jackson in his treatment of the Cherokee, does provide some historical context which helps make his actions more comprehensible, at least.

Jackson is a fascinating character who did a lot of good, and did a lot of evil. If it were up to me, I'd replace him on the currency with Davy Crockett, another iconic frontiersman/statesman, and one who argued for the rights of Indians.

Here are links to the full texts of Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Cherokee/) and Worcester v. Georgia (http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Worcester/).

[tracer]

Duck Duck Goose quoted an on-line list of the 20 Greatest Presidents in U.S. History:

7. Andrew Jackson (1829-1837)
As president, Jackson greatly expanded the power and prestige of the presidential office and carried through an unprecedented program of domestic reform, vetoing the bill to extend the United States Bank, moving toward a hard-money currency policy,
I wouldn't be so proud of Jackson's veto of the 2nd Bank of the United States, or of his move toward hard currency. These moves, coupled with the economic climate in existence at the time, basically caused the Panic of 1837 -- the worst recession the U.S. had ever gone through up to that point.

From the whitehouse.gov entry on Martin van Buren:
Jackson's financial measures contributed to the crash. His destruction of the Second Bank of the United States had removed restrictions upon the inflationary practices of some state banks; wild speculation in lands, based on easy bank credit, had swept the West. To end this speculation, Jackson in 1836 had issued a Specie Circular requiring that lands be purchased with hard money--gold or silver.

In 1837 the panic began. Hundreds of banks and businesses failed. Thousands lost their lands. For about five years the United States was wracked by the worst depression thus far in its history.

[Duckster]

Since there appears to be quite a few posts with more than just mud sticking, I have two questions?

1) Who would *you* want on US currency and why?

2) Is there ever a point when looking at historical figures and their actions that applying 21 century standards to behavior might be a tad too much? Or should every person on US currency be so "lily-white and politically correct" as to really have no significance at all?

[Liberal]

Why use people at all?

$1 — Statue of Liberty

$5 — Bald Eagle

$10 — Liberty Bell

$20 — Empire State Building

$50 — Golden Gate Bridge

$100 — American Flag

and so on...

[plnnr]

I'm all for redesigning our currency and giving a few of our lesser known Presidents a chance.

$1 - James K. Polk
$5 - William Henry Harrison
$10 - Grover Cleveland
$20 - Chester A. Arthur (a personal favorite)
$50 - Millard Fillmore
$100 - Martive Van Buren (my all-time favorite)

[Neurotik]

Maybe something along the lines of incompetence rankings:

$1 - Pierce
$5 - Hayes
$10 - A. Johnson
$20 - Buchanan
$50 - Grant
$100 - Hardint

[Tars Tarkas]

$1-- Lady Liberty
$2-- Uncle Sam
$5-- Red Cloud
$10-- Hamilton
$20-- Any Indian just to make Jackson roll over in his grave.
$50-- Godzilla
$100-- Franklin
$500-- John Carter of Mars
$1000-- King Kong
$5000-- Elvis
$10000-- Chase
$100,000-- Jesus and Mohammad holding hands
$1,000,000,000,000-- Tars Tarkas, simultaniously giving the thumbs up, OK sign, V for Victory, and the middle finger!

[tracer]

Libertarian wrote:

Why use people at all?

$1 — Statue of Liberty
$5 — Bald Eagle
$10 — Liberty Bell
Just FTR, before the 20th century, nearly all U.S. coinage carried artistic renditions of Lady Liberty. The "tradition" of putting dead statesmen on U.S. currency -- coin or paper -- is a recent invention.

And the Statue of Liberty does appear on the U.S. Mint's platinum Eagle bullion coins.

[Spoke]

Yeah, didn't George Washington actually oppose the notion of putting his image on the currency when the idea was floated during his lifetime?

[Liberal]

Probably. He was the last good president that we had.