Weird 9/11 Ref in C.S. Lewis's "Voage of the Dawn Treader"

[Judith Prietht]

Here's strange symmetry; see Fenris's thread in the Pit.

[Freudian Slit]

Ugh. Did my thread become broken? Okay...Let me try again:

Here is the OP Once more:

I figured this out a while ago, but never got a chance to post it. Fenris's thread in the BBQ Pit reminded me. For English this year, we were doing some of the Narnia books, as part of a study on C.S. Lewis. Anyway, do you guys remember the novel? Eustace Scrubb, the little wussy cousin of dear Lucy and Edmund, is keeping a journal. Eventually, they land on an island, and Eustace is lost, and turns into a dragon. But do you remember the date?

There's a line: "What awaited them on the island was going to concern Eustace more than anyone else, but it cannot be told in his words because after September 11, he forgot about keeping his diary for a long time."

Bizarre, no? Not just that it occurs on Sept 11 (which is weird, in and of itself), but bizarre that something realy big happens on that date. Everyone I've shown it to gets pretty freaked out. It's like Lewis knew. Maybe kids growing up now, and in the future, will read the book and think it was written recently, and believe he was making a reference to what actually happened. Really makes the "Two Towers" look pretty small in comparison.

[Mahaloth]

So? It's not that big a deal. I'm sure people can find lots of books that used Sept. 11 for things.

[Baldwin]

There are 365 days in a year; there are thousands of stories that include dates. Oooh, creepy...

[Freudian Slit]

Yeah, I know, but this date just happened to be really significant in this book. It's not like he knew, but it just seems really unnerving reading it. And there are 364 other days that could have been used, I just think it's kind of scary he chose a day that happens to be so important.

[glee]

Originally posted by Zoggie
Yeah, I know, but this date just happened to be really significant in this book. It's not like he knew, but it just seems really unnerving reading it. And there are 364 other days that could have been used, I just think it's kind of scary he chose a day that happens to be so important.

I thought I would test your theory that this was a significant point, and not merely a coincidence.
The first two books I picked up were 'Hornblower and the Hotspur' by C. S. Forester and 'Honour among Thieves' by Jeffrey Archer.
I found dates in both of them.

'Hornblower and the Hotspur', page 18: 2 April 1803
'Honour among Thieves' page 11 : Feb 15 1993

What does this tell us?
Well if you come across a date that means nothing special, you will ignore it.
However, if you come across a meaningful date, you will notice it.
So all this shows is that you notice things in a subjective way, not that 'it's kind of scary he chose a day that happens to be so important'.

I do find it scary that you think there is any meaning in this.
Why not look deliberately for dates in books? I would suggest that you will find a completely random selection.

(I don't want to mention that the Archer book says on the front cover 'Who would pay a million dollars to humiliate America?', in case you start another thread ;) )

[MovieMogul]

James Dean was killed on the 30th of September.
ArchiveGuy was born on the 30th of September.
Ergo, a spectre of death looms over me every waking moment of my life. I am a soul haunted by the spirit of teenage rebellion cut short in its youthful prime. Do not approach, lest its icy finger touch you too!!!! :rolleyes:

[Freudian Slit]

Oh God. I'm not saying it necessarily means anything. You can stop with the rolly eyes smilies, I get that you're all skeptics. I just thought it was pretty cool and I wanted to share it. You know, when you notice something interesting and you pass it on? I'm not advancing a theory of any kind, I'm just saying that doesn't it look strange compared to what actually happened last year? Is it even possible for any of you to at least admit that it's kind of weird or make some non-rude comment, without mocking me?

[glee]

Originally posted by Zoggie
I just thought it was pretty cool and I wanted to share it.


Well, sharing is good, but why is this coincidence :cool:?

Originally posted by Zoggie
You know, when you notice something interesting and you pass it on?


Again, I'm all for passing interesting stuff on. But this is just a day of the year (not mentioning the year itself) on which something bad happened in America.

C.S. Lewis lived through the two World Wars. These involved millions of casualties, both civilian and military. The Nazis attempted genocide.
Please think seriously about what you're saying. Why, even if C.S. Lewis could foresee the future, would he select a tragedy with far fewer deaths?
In any case, the book was published in 1952. What is your theory about how an English author foresaw an event some 50 years later?

Originally posted by Zoggie
I'm not advancing a theory of any kind, I'm just saying that doesn't it look strange compared to what actually happened last year?


No.
Read any other book. Look for a date in it. Is it Sep 11? Why is C. S. Lewis more relevant than these other authors?

Originally posted by Zoggie
Is it even possible for any of you to at least admit that it's kind of weird or make some non-rude comment, without mocking me?

It's not weird at all.
I'm sorry if you feel slighted. But you are posting on a board dedicated to fighting ignorance.
You are badly confused about a simple coincidence, and it is our duty to point that out.

[masonite]

Re-read this:

Originally posted by Baldwin
There are 365 days in a year; there are thousands of stories that include dates.

If anybody cared to check, there are probably a lot of other books most of us have read where "something happened" on a September 11th. It would be statistically strange if that weren't the case. If I recall correctly, the imporant event on Sept. 11 in Dawn Treader was that Eustace turned into a dragon. You don't see a connection there with the dragon of terrorism, or something, do you? I hope not.

English assigments tend to have one looking for symbolism where there isn't any. How many copies of The Great Gatsby are there with every color word underlined? Poor kids, prodded to think like this with every book.

Read and enjoy, that's my advice.

:)

[joshmaker]

Originally posted by ArchiveGuy
I am a soul haunted by the spirit of teenage rebellion cut short in its youthful prime. Do not approach, lest its icy finger touch you too!!!!

:eek: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :eek: Stay back! Back I say, Back!

[Wicked Blue]

Zoggie, I find it very vaguely creepy™ myself. ;)

Why do I find it creepy? Well, maybe because the line could apply to a couple thousand people who would have forgotten about their diaries after September 11, 2001, due to the events of the day.
That's all....not because it's like Lewis had some prophetic vision of the future, but because it's a strange coincidence. Which is also what I believe Zoggie was saying, too.

Some people need to lighten up.

Rose

[FisherQueen]

These books were written a long time ago. The odds were in Lewis's favor.

Do this experiment: pick a date at random. Now wait, say, fifty years. Something of enormous significance will eventually happen on that date. Now add some prophetic words that aren't particularly specific: "May 14th, a day that will be remembered forever." Voila! You're a prophet.

Moreover, the actual incident in Dawn Treader, IIRC, was the story of Edmund getting turned into a dragon, a very cool tale with a great deal of allegorical significance, probably the heart of the book, but not particularly relevant to 9/11 unless we do some serious stretching.

[Sparrow]

Well, it's just slightly creepy I suppose. If I'd noticed it myself it would have made me shiver, that's all.

But another C S Lewis coincidence - did you know he died on the day JFK was assasinated?

[Polycarp]

"The laws of statistics not only permit coincidence; they require it."

In 1941 a hack writer named Clive Cartmill was under FBI investigation, though they would not tell him why. It turns out that he had written a science fiction story about a bomb based on uranium fission. Obviously (in their eyes) he had access to a leak from the Manhattan Project! (More obviously, he had some knowledge of physics and was trying to write a SF story based on Fermi's discovery of fission and its consequences in the real world of power politics and such.)

[Freudian Slit]

Sigh. Thank you. I think it's a coincidence that I happened to be reading a book I ordinarily wouldn't have read, and that the date happened to be significant. There's no theory, I just think it's, as Wicked Blue points out vaguely creepy. I'm aware of the fact that coincidences exist, I'm just saying it was a weird feeling to read that date in a book that had been written beforehand. Rationally I know it means nothing, but on an emotional level it's very bizarre.

[Violet]

My auto club card has Sept. 11 on it. It will always feel "creepy."

[Tenebras]

But another C S Lewis coincidence - did you know he died on the day JFK was assasinated?

Wait, you mean CS Lewis was president of the United States? I thought he was English or something. Why wasn't I told that foreign nationals are allowed to be prez? I'm voting for Coldfire come 2004.

Mmm... future-y...

Tenebras

[airdisc]

ArchiveGuy was born on the 30th of September.

Hey, you too? Cool!

[glee]

Originally posted by Zoggie
There's no theory, I just think it's, as Wicked Blue points out vaguely creepy. I'm aware of the fact that coincidences exist, I'm just saying it was a weird feeling to read that date in a book that had been written beforehand. Rationally I know it means nothing, but on an emotional level it's very bizarre.

I think your initial post was misleading and suggested that there was something meaningful to this.
As I said, posting that suggestion on this board was bound to lead to swift rebuttals.

Of course it's natural to be upset when something reminds you of a tragedy. I don't see why this is creepy, scary or should freak anyone out.

When I was a kid, my dog got run over outside my local park. Every time I pass by the spot I get sad.
I guess it will be the same for you whenever you encounter 9/11.

[Tenebras]

Ok, who wants in on the pot for how long it takes [/B]glee[B] to get flamed for this oneÆ

When I was a kid, my dog got run over outside my local park. Every time I pass by the spot I get sad. I guess it will be the same for you whenever you encounter 9/11.

Ive got a dollar on 6Æ15 PST, tonight.

Tenebras

[Jello]

Originally posted by Sparrow
Well, it's just slightly creepy I suppose. If I'd noticed it myself it would have made me shiver, that's all.

But another C S Lewis coincidence - did you know he died on the day JFK was assasinated?

And the day Alduous Huxley died. This is no coincedence, this is a conspiracy.

[sjc]

On a related note, in the Harper's Index this month (or was it last month?) they had an item that was about a band called "I am the World Trade Center" and they had a song titled "September" which was track number 11. The album came out in May of 2001 I believe. In any case it was released before september.

Odd. It was a coincidence I'm sure, but still interesting.

Making connections between different apparently unrelated or semi-unrelated things is what humans do. In some cases this results in great things; art and science both owe a lot to this penchent for mking connection. Sometimes the connections people make are misleading or wrong or dangerous or simply pointless, but sometimes amazing things happen. This is why I appreciate the coincidences I see even if they mean nothing.

Certainly attempting to connect everything is silly, and certainly a lot more goes into art and science than simply making connections, but making connections is still very important to both.

I am gratified to know that the Dopers are still as keen as ever to debunk incorrect assumptions, fighting ignorance is important, but I also think you may have been a little hard on the Original Poster.

[kaylasdad99]

I thought the OP was a joke and everybody was being "Whooooshed!"

Then I caught the tone of Zoggie's follow-up posts, and changed my mind.

[glee]

Originally posted by Tenebras
Ok, who wants in on the pot for how long it takes glee to get flamed for this one

originally posted by glee
When I was a kid, my dog got run over outside my local park. Every time I pass by the spot I get sad. I guess it will be the same for you whenever you encounter 9/11.


Ive got a dollar on 6.15 PST, tonight.

Tenebras

You may be waiting longer than you think!

You didn't include the previous sentence:

originally posted by glee
Of course it's natural to be upset when something reminds you of a tragedy. I don't see why this is creepy, scary or should freak anyone out.


This makes it clear my point is that we react emotionally to reminders of previous tragedies, no matter how small or large.

I am well aware that the loss of one childhood pet is different from your country being attacked by terrorists, just as I expect you to be aware that people attach less significance to events in far-away countries. If (God forbid) India and Pakistan start a nuclear war and kill millions, and simultaneously Bin Laden is captured, I know which will be the lead story in US papers.
(I'm not criticising - this is a universal trait.)

[Forbin]

I agree.
There is no reason to flame glee.

[Dijon Warlock]

Originally posted by ArchiveGuy
James Dean was killed on the 30th of September.
ArchiveGuy was born on the 30th of September.
Ergo, a spectre of death looms over me every waking moment of my life. I am a soul haunted by the spirit of teenage rebellion cut short in its youthful prime. Do not approach, lest its icy finger touch you too!!!! :rolleyes: Originally posted by airdisc:

Hey, you too? Cool!So was Lacey Chabert (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Chabert,+Lacey). So much for coincidence.

[Tenebras]

Whoa doggies... I didn't say that I thought glee should be flamed, I was just taking bets on when he would be flamed. It's just that people tend to be a bit touchy about this whole thing, and though I thought it was funny, it seemed like some people might think you were trivializing their pain, heartache, selfless donations to charities for large tax write offs, etc. No offense meant.

And hell, who cares about India/Pakistan anyway, if they want to nuke each other into oblivion, that's their own business, as long as they leave me out of it. ;)

Tenebras

[RTA]

At the very beginning of The Big Lebowski, as the Dude is writing out the check to pay for his half-and-half, the date he writes on the check is Sept. 11th, 1991 ...

He looks up as he's writing to see President Bush (Sr.) on the TV, who is saying "This will not stand. This will not stand, this aggression against - uh, Kuwait."

Strange coincidence! (Though we find out later that Dude had actually postdated the check; his landlord reminds him that "tomorrow's already the tenth.")

[Sparrow]

[

And hell, who cares about India/Pakistan anyway, if they want to nuke each other into oblivion, that's their own business, as long as they leave me out of it. ;)

Tenebras [/B]

Unfortunately you CAN'T be left out of it, the fallout will go all around the world.

[dalovindj]

You're not the only one who gets a wierd feeling around this stuff, Zoggie. I'm of the opinion that coincidences and synchronicities are not always just statistical oddities. The more I let coincidence guide and change my life the better it seems to become.

Other than personal experience, I have no proof, and I accept I may be wrong. But my instincts tell me that there is something communicating to us through coincidence and when we listen our lives tend to unfold in the strangest most beautiful ways. I'm not the only one to have noticed. Maybe it's wishful thinking and there is nothing there, but just maybe this is how the universe tries to guide it's children torwards whatever our destiny may be.

DaLovin' Dj

[Joe_Cool]

Originally posted by Wicked Blue
Zoggie, I find it very vaguely creepy™ myself. ;)

Why do I find it creepy? Well, maybe because the line could apply to a couple thousand people who would have forgotten about their diaries after September 11, 2001, due to the events of the day.
That's all....not because it's like Lewis had some prophetic vision of the future, but because it's a strange coincidence. Which is also what I believe Zoggie was saying, too.

Some people need to lighten up.

Rose

Wow, and when you think about this, combined with the fact that C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were old friends, and Tolkien foresaw the same disaster, naming volume II of Lord Of The Rings "The Two Towers", it gets more and more eerie! :)

Actually, nothing important happened on Sept. 11 on the Dawn Treader. That's just the last day that Eustace remembered to write in his diary. They didn't go ashore until September 12, which was the day he became a dragon.

"11 September. Caught some fish and had them for dinner. Dropped anchor at about 7 p.m. in three fathoms of water in a bay of this mountainous island. That idiot Caspian wouldn't let us go ashore because it was getting dark and he was afraid of savages and wild beasts. Extra water ration tonight."

What awaited them on this island was going to concern Eustace more than anyone else, but it cannot be told in his words because after September 11 he forgot about keeping his diary for a long time.

When morning came, with a low, grey sky but very hot, the adventurers found they were in a bay encircled by such cliffs and crags that it was like a Norwegian fjord...

The whole ship's company went ashore in two boatloads and everyone drank and washed deliciously in the river and had a meal and a rest before Caspian sent four men back to keep the ship, and the day's work began.

[elfkin477]

Originally posted by ArchiveGuy
James Dean was killed on the 30th of September.
ArchiveGuy was born on the 30th of September.
Ergo, a spectre of death looms over me every waking moment of my life. I am a soul haunted by the spirit of teenage rebellion cut short in its youthful prime. Do not approach, lest its icy finger touch you too!!!! :rolleyes:

I know exactly where you're coming from. I avoid ships at all costs because:

April 10th, 1912: the Titanic set sail on it's doomed maiden voyage
April 10th, 1977: a doomed maiden (me) was born

This sort of thing can't possibly be conicidence :o

[Rilchiam]

My grandmother was born on February 13th, 1908.
My niece was born on February 13th, 1971.

No one in my family has ever regarded this as a cosmic connection. But it was, when Gramma was alive, a convenient reason to get the family together for a tandem birthday party.

I'm supporting Zoggie. No prediction. Just something that was innocuous when it was written and is now one of the many thousands of triggers Americans will have for a long time.

I'm thinking of one of Ruth Rendell's Wexford books (An Unkindness of Ravens), wherein the inspector grumbles, "This "evidence" all too pat; it has to be a construct." (It was.) He goes on to ask Burden, the other inspector, "Have you ever known such a neat coincidence?"

Burden replies, "Both my grandmothers were named Mary Brown." Which doesn't contradict Wexford's suspicions, but I found it amusing anyway. "Have you ever heard of such a thing?" "Yes."

[Snickers]

Ooh! Ooh! Me too! Didja know that in The Sum of All Fears (the book, not the movie), Tom Clancy blew up a security guard by the name of......wait for it......Bill Clinton! :eek: Obviously the author had foreknowledge of the death of Bill's presidency and represented it the best he could.

Coincindence, schmincedence, says I.


Best,
Snicks

[Snickers]

Addition:

'Course, Clancy also blew up my Vikings. Perhaps the man is prophetic - witness last season. Bastard.


Best,
Snicks

[phreesh]

I watched 'Enemy of the State' awhile back and one of the characters (Hackman or Voigt, I think) was born on September 11. It was on cable, so I was slightly surprised it wasn't edited out. Then I wondered why I expected it to be edited out. It's weird how innocuous references like that stick out after an event like 9/11. I imagine people noticed similar coincidences after the Titanic or Hiroshima

[Freudian Slit]

Thanks, Rilchiam. I read the same book recently (no, this time I won't claim cosmic coincidence :)), and it sort of made me think of this. There are a lot of weird things out there, and I just thought it would be fun to bring this up. Not because it signifies anything, just because it's sort of weird to see how things take on a newer meaning after an important event. People brought up similar ideas, about the Simpsons NYC episode and how it felt surreal watching it now. This was meant to be in the same vein.

[Tennessee Ben]

Originally posted by Sparrow


Unfortunately you CAN'T be left out of it, the fallout will go all around the world.
Actually, no. (http://www.methaz.com/blogpics/f12z.jpg)