Baaum! Shotgun underwater

[aha]

I noticed in the new movie " Reindeer Games" Ben (sp?Afleck)shoots a shotgun off underwater to break a hole in the ice in order for him and his co-star to swim to the surface and get air. They probably used compressed air (WAG) to simulate the firing of the shotgun. My question is, wouldn't the discharge from a real shotgun just about blow your ears out if fired underwater?

I have always been told that if you stick a shotgun... (barrel first) in the water and pull the trigger, the barrel would explode.. is that true? If it is, wouldn't the same thing happen if you were swimming under water and shot it at the surface?..

These are the things that plague my mind these days..kinda sad ain't it?

[pluto]

You know -- most of your questions can be answered by simple experiments. Only one of them actually requires an icy lake.

Let us know the results.

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If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[Rysdad]

I don't know if they're still in existence, but scuba divers used to use "bang sticks" to kill sharks. They were long rods that held a shotgun shell in the tip which fired when poked against the shark. I've seen them do it on film, and the divers didn't appear harmed.

[Boris B]

I don't know about the pressure of firing a weapon underwater having any effect on your ears.

The main problem with firing a firearm underwater happens if the barrel is filled with water. In this case, the problem is that weapons are only designed to handle the pressures of igniting all that propellant when the projectile has an easy time getting out of the barrel. Like, not having a bunch of heavy liquid in the way.

On the other hand, shotgun ammo varies greatly in chamber pressure, so maybe it would be okay if you fired a really light (low amount of propellant) charge, since the weapon could handle much more pressure than that out of the water. I don't recommend it though.

Also on the other hand, I don't know if Affleck's shotgun barrel was filled with water before the shot. You can always put a condom or the like over the barrel, which will give you a single dry shot under water.

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Any similarity in the above text to an English word or phrase is purely coincidental.

[Boris B]

What would happen if the barrel were filled with water, and the weapon couldn't handle the pressure? I don't know. The barrel could explode, as suggested in the OP. Or it could just damage the action, leaving the operator with all ten finger. Or somewhere in between, I suppose the receiver could fail and shed a couple of chunks of hot metal.

[aha]

Sooo then if you fired "slugs" instead of shot there is a good chance the water pressure in the barrel would cause it explode?

I still wonder what would happen if you put say two inches of the barrel of any kind of rifle or pistol in the water and fired it...
and no I ain't gonna try it.

[Scylla]

I've personally had a firing pin get fouled from a small amount of rainwater, so I wonder if the shotgun would even fire under water.

A couple of inches of water in the barrel of a rifle or shotgun won't hurt the weapon when it's fired, but it will reduce the the range and accuracy of the projectile significantly.

I have replaced the shot in doveshot (a light load) in the following manner:
Open up casing, remove shot, drip wax over wadding, add water to previous level of shot, drip wax on top of water, reseal cartridge.

This is a useful load for scaring off geese without killing them.

A slug fired into a pond from above produces a spectacular effect (big hole in the water, dead fish)

Since the shockwave is quite awesome in this manner, I imagine if a shotgun was fired underwater it would produce quite a concussion to the eardrums.

Since a rifle clogged with dirt can cause the barrel to explode, I would guess a shotgun would do the same underwater.

[Neenah]

Quote: "I still wonder what would happen if you put say two inches of the barrel of any kind of rifle or pistol in the water and fired it...and no I ain't gonna try it."

I know folks who have killed fish that way, lacking the traditional equipment. The blast stuns them or kills them, you stick a big net in, and have a mess of fish in about two seconds. I have never been inclined to kill that many fish all at once, so I've never tried it. Outside of being wet, which is not good, the rifle is fine. At close range, a bullet going upwards of 1000 fps isn't going to be slowed down much by a few inches of water.

[EvilGhandi]

I have personally fired a shotgun that had a barrel fouled with a small plug of mud. The barrel will indeed explode, scaring the living crap out of you. (if you're lucky)

Remember the daisy-petaled shotgun barrel Elmer Fudd was left holding after Bugs plugged the bore with his fingers?

It is a surprisingly accurate depiction of what mine looked like afterwards.

[Foggy]

Oh boy, when I saw this topic, I thought it said "Shotgun underware".

I'll go take my meds now. :p

[Omniscient]

Sadly, I read it the same way.

Anyways, I don't think the problem would be the bullet being slowed down by the couple of inches of water, the problem is where is the displaced water going to go when it is forced out at several hundred ft/s. That water is going to raise the back pressure quite a bit. What the threshhold of a shotgun barrel is, I don't know, but I would be very hesitant to try an experiment.

I also imagine that firing a weapon underwater would pose risks of damaging the ears. Sound travels much more efficiently in water than air, and as such if the sound is as intense as an above ground firing the person would risk severe ear damage. The question would be, is the same amount of sound energy expelled in a submerged firing. That I can't answer.

Good questions, ones that make me think.

[Diver]

Bangsticks for scuba divers are still available. They can be chambered for shotgun rounds or for handgun rounds such as 44 mag.
Nowadays very few divers are afraid of underwater critters and bangsticks are rare. I have seen ads for them but have never seen a diver with one.
I have read an article - in a dive magazine - discussing firing regular pistols underwater. As I recall one of the weapons was a Glock 9mm and it would fire several times before jamming.
It would seem that firing a weapon underwater would be a disaster, but this appears to be a case where what seems reasonable isn't.

[funneefarmer]

The Above photo is of the Russian APS Underwater Assault Rifle. Below is a link to a person who cites Janes Infantry Weapons (21st edition) on underwater weapons and their specs.

Underwater firearms (http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Technical%20Details/Underwater%20Firearms)

This doesn't really answer the OP, but it is of interest. Obviously the effectiveness of ordinary firearms underwater is lacking.

[funneefarmer]

Check out "diving sound and hearing" (http://library.thinkquest.org/28170/36.html)

It looks like the pressure wave would be much more dangerous than any sound problems.

[GusNSpot]

Bang sticks are just very short shotguns. The shock wave is very bad if you are on the wrong end when it goes off. Best to not be on that end. The lead doesn't help either if you are on the wrong end.

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<--- 3½¢

[funneefarmer]

Underwater Assault Rifle (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/46.htm)

There are at least special weapons for this.

[StarvinMarvin]

HK SP40 and SP9 also fire underwater. Mossberg makes a salt-water resistant Marine shotgun, and it fire underwater, Ive seen it.

Underwater assault weapons are also used by some of the special forces. They are more like explosive dart guns, or torpedo guns though.

For the most part though, nothing is really designed as a weapon for strict underwater use yet, as it is such a different environment, and wars arent fought underwater, yet.

Imagine what the first evil genius to go underseas will cause to be invented.

[Isosleepy]

Don't you need oxygen to make the explosion that propels the charge happen?
I believe regular shotguns get that oxygen from the surrounding air, which is so sadly lacking underwater...
I believe the same principle is responsible for the complete absence of fun skeet-shooting-on-the-moon experiments on the appollo 15 mission.

[InutilisVisEst]

Actually, gunpowder has the oxidizer built in. Rifle and pistol cartridges are nearly hermetically sealed -- survival bullets designed to last forever are nickel plated 3 times to seal up the last few cracks and insure longevity.

Shotgun rounds, alas, are not perfectly sealed, and are likely to leak quickly to the point of not functioning if immersed. Bang sticks must have some provision for this, but a regular shotgun with regular cartridges wouldn't stay usable for long.

As for skeet on the Moon... 1/6 Earth gravity would make for quite a frisky pigeon and quite of lot of balance problems after the recoil...

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Sure, I'm all for moderation -- as long as it's not excessive.

[Boris B]

Originally posted by funneefarmer:
It looks like the pressure wave would be much more dangerous than any sound problems.

Ehh, am I missing something here? Isn't sound a pressure wave, whether submerged or in air?

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Any similarity in the above text to an English word or phrase is purely coincidental.

[funneefarmer]

Originally posted by Boris B:
Ehh, am I missing something here? Isn't sound a pressure wave, whether submerged or in air?



From the aforementioned site on Diving...

"The human ear is an extremely sensitive pressure detector in air, but it is less efficient in water. A sound must therefore be more intense in water (+20 dB to 60 dB, SPL) to be heard. Hearing under water is very similar to trying to hear with a conductive hearing loss under surface conditions: a smaller shift in pressure is required to hear sounds at the extreme high and low frequencies, because the ear is not as sensitive at these frequencies. "

"Sound is transmitted through water as a series of pressure waves. High intensity sound is transmitted by correspondingly high intensity pressure waves. A diver may be affected by a high intensity pressure wave that is transmitted from the surrounding water to the open spaces within the body (ears, sinuses, lungs). The pressure wave may create increased pressure within these open spaces, which could result in injury.

The sources of high intensity sound or pressure waves include underwater explosions and, in some cases, sonar. Low intensity sonars such as depth finders and fish finders do not produce pressure waves of an intensity dangerous to a diver."

I got the impression that the explosion would need to be larger than a gunshot to be detrimental to your health.