Extramarital Sex before Divorce? When?

[UncleBill]

In this (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=128049) MPSIMS thread, SuperLorie is thrilled she is getting amazing sex with a great guy she met, and she is “getting a divorce”. I take that to mean it is currently underway, and she and the soon-to-be-ex are seperated and all. A few folks had piped up about some moral issues, but that thread is more a “Yay for ME” thread, and the discussion should go elsewhere.

The question is this:

From a moral perspective, at what point in a failing/failed marriage, headed for divorce, is it “acceptable” to have extramarital sex?

From a legal perspective, during the divorce proceedings, is the fact that one party is having extramarital sex make the case for the other party stronger? Can this public knowledge be used against them in the divorce to show fault?

Personally, when I was getting a divorce, I did not date or screw anything until after the judge banged the gavel. Partly because I did not trust the ex to NOT pull something to turn the divorce from uncontested to MY FAULT, and partly because I made a promise and I was going to keep it. I respect marriage, and I could wait until I was available again.

Let’s try to keep civil here, and talk about your own morals and your own experiences. I for one am very happy for SuperLorie, I just would not have done it.

[World Eater]

I've never been married, but I would say once you know its over, you are free to do the whatever the hell you please. The paperwork seems to be a formality. I also don't suscribe to the notion that it should strengthen the opposing side's case, its after the fact.

[istara]

From a strong christian perspective, I guess it would be totally immoral and unacceptable, because you are not married to the person you are sleeping with, AND you are married to someone else.

From a conservative catholic position, it would always be completely immoral and unacceptable to sleep with someone other than your spouse, unless they actually died, as divorce is not accepted.

From a social-moral perspective, I would say it was fine as long as you both knew the situation and were aware of the divorce proceedings (ie your husband isn't still "in the dark" thinking you're happily married when you're shagging the window cleaner and busy seeing divorce lawyers), there was openness and honesty with any kids involved, and you were doing your best to cause as little hurt as possible. And it would also only be socially-morally fine if the other person was "free" too.

Mitigating circumstances in my moral perspective would be if you had already been cheated on - in which case, fair game - or if the relationship was abusive or violent, in which case IMO the vows of marriage have been broken.

[belladonna]

I don't know about the legal aspects, so I won't comment on that.

However, as for the moral side...(anectdotal perspective to follow)

I say once the words "I want a divorce" have been said it's pretty silly to go through the motions of honoring vows. My husband ran off when our son was three months old. I told him at the time that if he did this he would not be welcome back. He left anyway. I went inside, took off my wedding band, and divorced him in my heart at that moment.
He tried to come back but I sent him on his way and he was in prison within the month. The divorce was pushed back, by mutual agreement, until he is released.

But no way was I going to put my life on hold for a year. I know timing, and grieving periods, and acceptable intervals are different for everyone, but in my case I went out and did a little "oat-sowing" after he'd been gone about two months. I became involved with someone romantically after he'd been gone for nearly five months and I'd been "divorced" emotionally for six. For me the judge banging his gavel will simply be a formality---the important part--the inner decision--was what really mattered.

[VDarlin]

Personally, once a couple separates, and are living in different households, and it's well established that there is no hope for reconciliation, what you do with your own time is your business. The only exception to this, I believe, would be if cheating is part of the reasoning for the divorce, in the first place. It may not be fun, but if it's present, you don't want to do anything to strengthen the other parties argument, or, if it was the other party who cheated, then you don't want to do anything that might weaken your argument.

I know that a good number of divorces are quite volatle(sp? it's too early for me to check), and giving the other party anything to latch onto, and try and milk is probably not a good idea. In that case, the person should decide whether or not it's worth it, and either abstain, or, be incredibly descrete in their actions. While no divorce is pleasant, not all of them are hostile, and if you find yourself in that situation, and know for a fact that it would not cause the other person to try and use it against you, then if you want to, by all means, go for it. In that case, I would still advise being as descrete as possible, however. Especially if children are involved.

~V

[MachV]

At the beginning of my divorce, any extra-marital sex was strictly on the down-low. But since the whole ordeal dragged out for a year and a half, we both eventually became more open about our other relationships. Just kinda happened that way. In the end, the fact that we were still married was just a matter of unfinished paperwork.

Had she been a complete psycho-stormtrooper from hell bent on destroying everything that was me, I would have kept everything secret until the papers were signed. Thankfully, she was only a partial psycho for a couple of months!

So morally, I don't see a problem with it. If it's over, it's over.

If you're a religious person & believe God will smite you for even getting the divorce, then you're pretty screwed anyway.

As a matter of CYA, however, some people just have to be a little more careful.

[plnnr]

Until the divorce if final (30 days after the judge signs the final Divorce Decree in VA I believe), you are still married and exta-marital sex (infidelity) can be used against you in court if it can be proven and if the other side wants to make an issue of it.

As to the morality of it, I don't make moral decisions for other people. You have to live with yourself. Personally, I had sex during my separation and never thought that much about it.

[Deadly Nightlight]

Once my Husband said I want a divorce, I too, like Belladonna(Love the nickname btw ;)) was through. I refuse to play that "Oh I am mad at you for the moment so I want a divorce game" I currently have a boyfriend but I doubt we will be having sex anytime before I get divorced, but if it happens YAY for me LOL

[Max Carnage]

When my wife left me, I honored my vows to the end too. I made a promise in front of God and my friends and family. I wasn't going to go back on them. She on the other hand went out and slept around. I imagine she was doing that before she left me, but that was her decision. She was never known for truth-telling anyway, so why would her breaking a vow come as any surprise? Besides which, if any trouble came up during the proceedings, her promiscuity and my celebacy could supply some possible leverage.

Of course, I haven't had much nookie since then either, but whatever :)

Yes, I am a Christian so YMMV; I'm not here to preach to you or condemn anyone for your morals. Just don't ridicule me for mine.

[Zebra]

I would say after BOTH parties are resigned to a divorce then new dating is OK.

Notice how I didn't say sex?
You should not even date untill BOTH parties are comitted to divorce.

[Jdeforrest]

IANAL but I do work in a law firm, so I hopped on down to a divorce attorney and his answer was that it varies from state to state so consult an attorney if your in this situation.

[TelcontarStorm]

FWIW He's how I handled the situation:
We'd been seperated for a year and he was indesisive as to a reconsiliation, so I told him, "If I wake up alone on my Birthday you may as well go ahead and call your Lawyer because I am going out to get drunk and laid." At that point I knew what we had was way over because he had already shacked up with his MotelHo. Well, as you can probly guess, I woke up alone, but I din't get drunk, nor laid untill the next night anyhow (HaHa)
I suppose I did it just to prove to myself I was still a worthwhile, loveable person. It helped it was with a man who'd I known for many years and kept from hanging around while married because of the attraction. I'm sure the soon-to-be-Ex knew, but at that point it didn't matter.
The vow was for BOTH of us to keep. He broke it long before I did, and I cannot futher damage a vow that had previously been sundered. It was already broken long before I had sex with someone other than my Husband.
He had ceased being my husband the day he walked out and stopped doing the duties of a husband (stop right now before you think I'm talking religion here, just living as a married couple) the same as I ceased being a wife, as I had no husband to be a wife to.
Had I though for one moment a reconsiliation was possible, I would not have done so. As I would have been a wife in action as well as legal status.

[3waygeek]

My experience is that once the wheels have started turning, it's open season. A good thing, in my case, otherwise I'd still be a virgin as I approach my 40th birthday.

Basically, it was the classic rebound relationship -- she was a friend & coworker, and she started pursuing me shortly after she threw her hubby out. We were both in college at the time, and she graduated & moved out of state shortly after the divorce was final; we had almost a year together.

In the intervening 16 years, I've had a few (in the literal sense, and all in the distant past) dates, but nothing that would qualify as a relationship. For whatever reasons, women don't really see me "that way", and I've never had the slightest success approaching women (remember, the x-gf approached me), so my love live has been entirely theoretical over the last decade or so.

[3waygeek]

Damn double posts; the hamsters must have hiccuped ;)

Mods, can you do something about the extra post?

[WV_Woman]

From a moral perspective, at what point in a failing/failed marriage, headed for divorce, is it “acceptable” to have extramarital sex?

It's not, IMHO.

Married is married, separated or not.

[WV_Woman]

Yes, I am a Christian so YMMV; I'm not here to preach to you or condemn anyone for your morals. Just don't ridicule me for mine.

Max baby then you're on the wrong boards.

You'll see.

[Myrnalene]

Originally posted by WV_Woman
Max baby then you're on the wrong boards.

You'll see. Max has been here longer than you, and he seems to be doing just fine.

My gut feeling is that you if make this most important promise, you should make a very strong effort to keep it. If I were divorced I honestly think I would not have sex again until the proceedings were final. However, if the marriage has suffered an irredeemable breakdown and it's all over but the formalities, I would understand why some would not want to wait to try again for romantic happiness.

[Eutychus]

Originally posted by WV_Woman
Max baby then you're on the wrong boards.

You'll see.

Moderator's Notes

WV_Woman, this is an official notice. Despite what you may have thought, people here were, for the most part, willing to engage you in reasonable and rational discussion. You've refused to do so. We are not going to allow you to use every thread that might mention Christianity as a springboard for your perceived martyrdom. Do this again and we'll be reconsidering your posting priveldges.

Thank you.

[Siege]

This is where I do switch over to hard-core moralist mode and say that sex is not acceptable until after the divorce is over. I once turned down a friend who made a pass at me because he was only separated, among other reasons [long, ugly story omitted]. I've been celibate for years at a time, and there are worse fates. Besides, naive soul that I am, I insist on believing some things are worth waiting for.

By the way, WV_Woman, I'm more open about my Christianity here than I am anywhere else other than my church (something about those GD threads I can't resist), and I have never been ridiculed for my Christianity. If anything, I've been complimented because of it. Then again, mileage does vary.

CJ

[rocking chair]

wouldn't consider even dating until the papers are signed and filed.

[furr]

my partner and i were dating while his divorce was in the works. and yes we had plenty of sex. from the time he offically filed for divorce.. to the time the papers came back stamped signed and approved was 2 years. divorce is not a quick process in the UK.

i guess alot of moral issues could arise from the idea that until the papers are approved then they can always change their minds.

in my case that really wasnt likely. hed moved 30 thousand miles to the other side of the globe, and cut off almost all contact with his ex-wife, thats about as final as you can get without the piece of paper.

[pepperlandgirl]

Well, my dad started banging his GF shortly after he left Mom....the same night for all I know. All it idd was hurt mom and make the whole thing thta much worse. Forget higher moral purposes. Forget the law of the land. I think it falls under basic human decency and the rule we all live by here, don't be a jerk. There was no reason for him to disrespect mom like that---or the rest of my family for that mattre.

[Shakes]

Well technicaly speaking; I have a wife and a girlfriend. My "wife" also has a boyfriend. Yeah, buddy welcome to the new millinneum! [divorce pending of course] I still think of myself as moral. I guess thats all that really matters.

[j666]

Simple manners:
You MUST explain your exact legal status to your prospective partner.
You may date as soon as the papers are filed.
You may have sex between the divorce being granted and the final decree.
You may also have very, very, very discrete (again, for manners, not for legal reasons) sex six months after the papers have been filed, and the spouse has filed or agreed to a non-contested.

If the marriage is over, the vows are over.
But if the marriage is over, why haven't you filed for divorce?

I do admire the standards of those who wait for the final gavel, but I did not wait the extra six months for the final decree (it wasn't my marriage that ended; does that make a difference?)

[kittenblue]

I had every intention of holding fast to my belief that one shouldn't be out there dating until all the paperwork is signed, even though my husband left me for a woman he'd been having an affair with for two years. My kids were very hurt by his behavior...he didn't leave just me, after all, he left them too. But after nearly a year of separation, with him living with her, and offering me pity sex because he was afraid I wouldn't get any ever again, he tells me that he's not planning on starting the divorce proceedings any time soon.

So there I am, in limbo, too poor to get a lawyer, faced with an uncertain future of being married but not married, and for who knows how long (ex's sister waited 7 years to get divorced, and I was afraid it was a family pattern). At the urging of my children, who really have been very supportive, I call an old friend, back in town after a divorce and his dad's death, to get together and go to movies and dinner and class reunion. See the above referenced thread for how that turned out. Now my kids only know that we're friends, and that we go out to eat occasionally, so don't freak out on me.

At the same time as starting to see this friend, my husband tells me we must be divorced by the end of the year (she was pressuring him....didn't much like his "we'll get divorced in a couple of years" plan. Within 8 weeks the marriage is dissolved...he somehow found the money to pay my lawyer, who was a friend from my church who gave me a good deal.

The relationship with rebound guy predictably fades away before the dssolution, and sensibly, and my husband never knew that we were more than friends. This is no time to be starting a serious new relationship, and we both had been unhappy with the "not legally divorced yet" aspect, being church-going folk. But when I look back at everything that went on during that time of separation and divorce....the fighting, the counseling for me and the kids, the anger and hurt and sorting out of sixteen years of cheating (his) and alcoholism (his) and stuff, the support of my church and friends.... the part that gave me the most healing was the time I spent with Rebound Guy, talking and loving and even finding out where all the ouchie spots were when we parted.

So I've been alone since then (7 years now) and while I regret bending my vows there at the end, at least I wasn't out partying and dating up a storm before the screen door had finished slamming when hubby walked out. I healed, my kids have had time to heal and grow without having to deal with a new person in their lives, and now I've started seeing a wonderful man who is a refreshing change and a decent, moral, church-going man. I hope our relationship grows to be incredible some day.

Was it moral? No. But I'm not perfect, and at the time it seemed the right thing for my sanity. And as others here have said, my marriage ended the moment he said he was leaving me for someone else. But I am glad I waited nearly a year after that.

[j666]

Was it moral? No.
I disagree. It was risky; what your ex was playing at was immoral.

[Lorenzo]

I've never been divorced or in divorce proceedings, so it's probably easier for me to say this, but I believe that as a Christian, the right thing for me to do would be to wait until everything was final and then not date for awhile after that to try to work through some things.

[Mr. Cynical]

If you want to have sex with someone else before your divorce is settled, fine. So be it. Personally, since chances are that it won't affect me in the slightest, I doubt that I could care any less than I do already. However, when you elect to brag about it in front of the whole world, I choose to not respect you.

[Hamadryad]

I think the morality depends on how you were brought up, whether you're religious, and how religious you are. Whether or not to have extramarital sex can also be situational.

According to many religions, from what I recall, any sex whatsoever outside of marriage is wrong, whether you've ever been married before or not.

I "lived in sin" with Tark for a year. He'd tried to divorce his wife several times in the five (!) years since she'd left, but she kept moving - sometimes with no concrete address. She finally divorced him when she wanted to remarry.

I felt no guilt at all, and I'm pretty sure he didn't either.

I have cheated. To me, "cheating" is going behind one's spouse's (or SO's) back - being false and underhanded and lying. It was a horrible thing to do and I regretted it, and apologized. It wasn't horrible of me to do because God or Allah or Krishna or the Floating Magenta Moose told me it was wrong; it was horrible because I betrayed the trust of someone who should have had every reason in the world to trust me.

Fortunately, now he does again, because although I don't think I'll ever be right with any particular God, I have done right by him. If he can forgive me, I don't think God would be so small as to hold a grudge.

I agree with Mr. Cynical though...when you come out in public bragging about it, while I might not call you "sinner," I will probably think, "How crass, tasteless, and lower-class. How trashy." Not for the act, but for the accompanying public bragging.

[chique]

When I found out the ex wanted a divorce I was faithful and fought to hold on to the marriage for nearly two months.

Then I found an email from his parents giving him advice on how to divorce me. "Do you remember what happened to Mr. What's-his-face down the street when his wife found out about the girlfriend? Just make sure chique doesn't find out about Bimbo."

Within two weeks he was in the barracks, I was sleeping with someone (with whom I'm still good friends, even though he's in Hawai'i), and wheels were put in motion to ship my household goods back to the mainland.

[belladonna]

originally posted by Mr. Cynical
However, when you elect to brag about it in front of the whole world, I choose to not respect you.

originally posted by Hamadryad
I agree with Mr. Cynical though...when you come out in public bragging about it, while I might not call you "sinner," I will probably think, "How crass, tasteless, and lower-class. How trashy." Not for the act, but for the accompanying public bragging.
Huh?
Who here’s bragging?
:confused:

[Hamadryad]

Belladonna: I think this is what folks are referring to (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=128049).

[Sivalensis]

belladonna, i had the same reaction...bragging? thing is, i hadn't looked at the other thread. i think that the bragging comment more aptly belongs in the other thread, and why post it here? yes, if you're a religious person who's against extramarital sex, then you could have some objections to this thread, but this one is a lot more serious than the one that was actually entitled "bragging." this one seems to actually address the moral issue and seriously ask what people think, not just drag out a bunch of sexual exploits.

[UncleBill]

For one reason I can think of, Sivalensis, and the same reason I chose to start a new thread here. That thread is a was started by a woman who has found happiness in an otherwise crappy situation. Her ethical/moral standpoint is based on her particular situation, as all of ours are. I don't want to rain on her parade, and perhaps our kind and gentle Mr. Cynical feels the same.

[lurkernomore]

personally? I don't date someone until the divorce is final. The first woman on the boards who expressed an interest in dating me was in the process of getting divorced - hubby was already dating. I said no. We even met at a dopefest where I flatter myself to think she came in from out of state at least in part to see me. She has since moved on, is still awaiting the final paperwork to go thru (hubby started dragging feet) and is living with someone, who seems like a nice guy. She and I are still friendly, spoke for over an hour on the phone just this week, probably will meet them both when they pass thru town this fall en route to a family visit. Have I ever wondered what may have happened if I DID date her? Once or twice. Do I regret not dating her? No. I made the right choice FOR ME. Do I look down on her for dating while she was still married? No.

[belladonna]

Regardless, it would have been nice for a little clarification about exactly who those comments were directed at. That other thread was linked in the OP, but up until Mr. Cynical's remark, it hadn't been mentioned again.

Considering the conversation taking place here, I read those comments as meaning that those of us who admitted to not waiting until the papers were signed should be ashamed of ourselves for daring to even talk about it.
Just seemed a bit uncalled for, IMO

[lurkernomore]

Oh - in case it wasn't clear - if she had been free, yes, I definitely WOULD have gone on a date with her.

[Medea's Child]

I'm very touchy about marriage. An oath is an oath, regardless of the circumstances. Until it is dissolved fully, by all parties involved (including the government) I will keep it.

I'm much less hardline about anything up to marriage. Until you make the permanent vow, its all flexable. (Unless you are my SO. Damn monogamy.)

All choices are up to the people involved, this post just includes my opinion, which may or may not be the opinion of you, your spouse, your dog, the Chicago Reader, or Cecil himself.


As much as I may whimper about monogamy, it is in jest. SO and I have a perfectly acceptable agreement in place.

[Badtz Maru]

From a moral perspective, at what point in a failing/failed marriage, headed for divorce, is it “acceptable” to have extramarital sex?

As soon as you feel ready.

[UncleBill]

I misread Mr. C's comment myself, and had to go back and read again to get it. I thought at first the same as you, belladonna, and was hacked off at first. He be mysterious sometimes.

[Mr. Cynical]

A mystery, wrapped up in an enigma, and smothered in secret sauce, baby :)

[LorieSmurf]

Wow. I didn't know the Straight Dope Message Board was considered the whole public world. Are you saying now everyone in the entire world knows I have had sex with Amazingly Spectacular In Bed Boyfriend?

I suspect not.

Some of you guys might think I'm trashy or whatever. Personally I don't give a tiny rat's butt. I felt so happy that I finally found a great time in bed (and on chair, on couch, on floor...but I don't want to continue bragging in public), and felt that most of you folks would appreciate the fun topic and discussion (which most of you did, thanks) I didn't think it would end up being a morality debate. Which I now realize was a naive assumption, given the nature of this board and the diversity of its members (and I wouldn't have this board any other way)

I don't know where else I was going to go with this reply. I guess that's about it. No conclusion.

[Jodi]

Well, LORIE, I think you have to at least consider that some people would not find extramarital sex to be a "fun topic." Yeah, this is a broad board, but that doesn't mean that people don't have opinions and the right to express them. And not everyone is going to agree with you all the time. Is it a criticism of your choice for people to say "I wouldn't do that," or maybe even "I wouldn't do that, and I wouldn't respect someone who did"? Yeah, it is. But it's not a criticism of you personally. That is the distinction I think UNCLEBILL was trying to draw by raising the question in a separate thread -- so it's not about you, it's about an action (regardless of whether it was done by you or not).

That said: I too am a Christian and I too believe that marriage vows are sacred. I'm not so naive, however, as to fail to understand that sometimes good reason exists to wallk away from a bad situation, and divorce does happen. But I would honor my marriage vows until I was well and truly divorced, not for the sake of the schmo I'm getting rid of, but for the sake of the vows themselves. When you promise to do something, especially before God, that has to mean something, IMO. Nor would I date a guy who was not officially divorced -- aside from the above beliefs, it's too easy today to get tripped up by some guy (or woman too, I guess) who claims to be "in the process of getting a divorce" but who isn't really -- not so long as as there's nookie at home and nookie away.

But though I've never been married, I know lonely and insecure and uncertain. And I know that sometimes sex can be a way to push those feelings back, just as divorce is time when they probably come charging forward. So I try not to judge others' choices. But if I said I did not have more respect for a person who chooses the IMO most honorable way of being true to their vows until divorce, I'd be lying.

[Geobabe]

SuperLorie, I'm sorry that you got your feelings hurt, but please don't take this thread personally. Surely you understand that not everyone has the same outlook as you, and you should not feel bad or even surprised that some people may disapprove. UncleBill specifically started this as a separate thread so as not to hijack yours, since you wanted to share about feeling good, but it did get him to thinking and he wanted to discuss it. It wasn't intended in any way as a condemnation of you that he or anyone else shared that they chose to do things differently. It is unfortunate that a few people chose to piss on your parade by expressing their disapproval in your thread.

[UncleBill]

SuperLorie, this is not a morality debate, or I would have put it in GD. This is asking folks for their personal opinions on a subject that MANY people have been exposed to. Big difference. Hence IMHO. Very very little in here is about you or your particular situation. Few very folks, nay almost NONE of the folks here, would criticize you.

In effect, anyone with internet access can read this board, it is unrestricted. A very simple google search can bring someone who is looking and has 10 minutes to kill into this forum. And what with archiving, it is best to treat anything you write here as open to the world, IMHO.

[Sivalensis]

I think that every situation is dependent upon the couple. If they've both decided that the marriage is over, they're living in separate houses, they've finished their lives together, then their marriage, in their eyes, is over. It's the love and commitment that makes a mariage, not a piece of paper. I'd feel differently if one person was under a false impression of the other still loving them, or if there were still strong feelings of connection between them.

So that's my input. Mariage = love + commitment + responsibility. Mariage (as far as sex is concerned at least) does not equal a piece of paper. But if there's going to be extramarital sex involved, I think it should be discrete enough not to cause harm to anyone involved (children especially).

[ultress]

In North Carolina once legal separation papers have been signed by both parties, then each party is considered to be living their life separate from the other as if they were never married. So legally you could have sex once the separation papers are signed.
My view is that once the separation papers are legal, you are no longer married, your vows are considered null and void, and you are free to live your life at your discretion. I would hope that couples that go as far as to obtain legal separation papers are certain that the marriage is over and that they have no wish to reconcile for whatever reasons there are. I would also hope that if children are involved that if any activities did take place that it would happen with the greatest discretion and caution.

[brainychick]

Well, I think that whether a divorcing couple should have sex before the final papers are signed depends on the situation.

I was once involved with a man whose marriage was, for all practical purposes, over. He and his wife lived in separate homes, and had other relationships. In fact, I admired a particularly creative custody arrangement they had: their former home belonged to their three children, and the parents took turns, two weeks at a time, living with them, so the kids wouldn't be traumatized by moving back and forth all the time.

Sometimes I would call the house and his wife would be there, and she had no problem taking a message for him. BTW, they had decided to go their separate ways because of his cheating. At the time I met him, he was in counseling.

They had no problem with "extramarital" sex, but eventually, I did. There was no divorce, legally speaking, and I was uncomfortable with that. I just thought it would be cleaner, neater, easier, if the divorce were formalized, and I also could not imagine my own relationship with this man progressing if he were still technically married. He got tired of my fussing about it and broke things off.

So, it depends. I think that it's best if both parties wait until the final papers are signed before starting new relationships, but a lot of people aren't going to do that, particularly if one or both of them no longer feel any responsibility to the other person.