US Coast Guard vessel in Hong Kong?

[Dave Stewart v3.0]

I travel across Victoria Harbour every morning. At the moment there is a small flotilla of US warships berthed halfway between Hong Kong Island and Lantau Island.

Curiously, there is also a clipper, all in white with the red stripe and stencilled on the hull, "US Coast Guard".

We are a bit far from the US coast. Why is the Coast Guard all the way out here? Does it provide some sort of support to the warships?

[Paul in Qatar]

Many times the Paramilitary (or maybe paranavy) Coast Guard is welcome to make port calls when the scarier USN is not.

Support for the clipper (all seagoing USCG ships are clippers) comes from the Navy.

[Milton De La Warre]

(Perhaps TMI, but here it is)

The USCG goes out to the farther Pacific regularly for several reasons:

1. To send icebreakers to the Antarctic to resupply the US research stations there.

2. To send "blackhulls" to tend navigational aids on and around the numerous islands and reefs (some uninhabited or uninhabitable) that are US territory. Guam, Samoa, and the Marianas are obvious, but there are also obscure places Howland Island and French Frigate Shoals. (US Coasts that need guarding include a lot more than the lower CONUS 48).

3. To send "regular" type cutters (like 378's of the Hamilton class) do law enforcement, environmental, SAR, and fisheries type patrols in and around said US territorial islands.

4. To share experience and training with other nations' Coast Guards.

The USCG (AFAIK) only conducts ops with or on the behalf of US Navy vessels where such ops are a primary mission of the USCG. In other words, sometimes the Navy cooperates by participating in CG type missions, but not the other way around. I don't think they've done any cooperative open-ocean war-type exercises with the Navy since the late 80's, although they did do harbor security during Desert Storm. USCG vessels no longer have sonar, and the service has no rate (= job) for sonar operators.

At one time, a very hawkish CG Commandant had the 378's (the largest CG cutters) outfitted with Harpoon missile launchers so the service could have more war capability if it were ever brought into Navy service in case of an all-out sea war, but his successor wisely reversed that and had the equipment removed.

In some theoretical near-future war, the USCG's role might well be like MPs are to the Army; it wouldn't be like a reserve division of ready-to-go full-capability warships.

The CG isn't equipped, manned, or funded to perform naval war type missions as well as the numerous peacetime missions it is assigned. The CG wisely leaves naval warfare to the Navy, and does its civil role maratime law enforcement, evironmental, and search-and-rescue ...and does it damn well, I might add!

FYI, but not related to the OP:
1. All USCG personnel (to the lowest enlisted person) count as Federal Officers. Thus, to harass or prevent a CG person from carrying out his or her duties is a Federal Offense.
2. The USCG is the only fully gender integrated US uniformed service. There are no jobs that are exclusively assigned to males (or females).
3. The USCG does not observe a DoD style "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Instead, policy is that it's your own thing. The concept is that of a sort of extended sexual harassment zero-tolerance: nobody picks on or pressures anyone for or because of their sex or sexuality. You can be as (openly) gay as you like so long as it doesn't keep you from doing your job.

[Milton De La Warre]

One other thing: I see the OP said a "clipper". If this mneands a big sailing ship, it's the USCGC Eagle, the training vessel out of the CGF Academy. It used to be the WW2 Kriegsmarine's traning ship Horst Wessel.

[ftg]

My Idiot Cousin was in the USCG and on one tour went to:

Chile (during the Allende days, not a happy country)
Antarctica
Australia
Hong Kong
Var. US terr. and bases in the W. Pacific.
(And probably a lot of other places I have forgotten.)

Ships sailing from A to D routinely stop at ports B and C along the way. The smaller the ship, the more likely stopping at ports is needed.

[Milton De La Warre]

Paul in Saudi:

All USCG ships are "Cutters" not "Clippers". A USCG vessel is officially USCGC, meaning "United States Coast Guard Cutter".

[Paul in Qatar]

I fully intend to blame my spool checker.

yeah, cutter, clippers are PanAm flying boats.

[Monty]

Paul: The United States Coast Guard is not a paramilitary. It is 100% a military service of the United States of America. It is one of our five Armed Forces.

JC: The Eagle is a barque. Regarding your assertion that the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" doesn't apply to the USCG: prove it. After all, it's one of our Armed Forces and is subject to the same law (the UCMJ) as the other Armed Forces. For that matter, the other Uniformed Services are subject to the UCMJ also.

[starfish]

The USCG may be an armed service, but so is the FBI, Customs, Border Patrol, etc. The USCG is only under the Department of Defense (Navy) in times of war.

In that sense, it is paramilitary. It's closer to civilian than military, but does use military ranks. The USCG does civilian law enforcement, which the military is not allowed to do.

[Nametag]

Whatever, Starfish. The Coast Guard is subject to "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," DOT notwithstanding.

[JRDelirious]

OK, just so we are all on the same page: legally, IRT the US Government, "Armed Forces"and "Uniformed Services" refers to certain very specific organizations under the command of the Prez, subject to the UCMJ, using a standardized paygrade structure, etc. That an organization bears arms, like the ATF, or that it wears uniforms, like the Border Patrol, or even that it flies AWACS-equipped P-3s, like Customs, does not make them one.

The US Armed Forces, aka Military Services, are the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps (all under DoD) and Coast Guard (under DoT, proposed to be under HomeSec).
The Uniformed Services IIRC are those five plus the Public Health Service (under HHS) and the NOAA Corps (under Dept. of Commerce).

USCG does deploy around the world, to show the flag, to cooperate with friendly nations in developing their coast guards or navies, and to cooperate with friendly nations in stopping smuggling at the starting rather than end point. The "Coast" name was adequate in the 1920s or so when they merged the Revenue Cutter Service, Lighthouse Service and Lifeboat Service, all of which were "coastal"; but maybe something like "Maritime Guard" would have been more appropriate to what they evolved into.

The Coast Guard does provide frontline, military, combat service in specialized roles. During WW2 service they operated landing craft. In Vietnam they provided littoral-warfare assets (patrol boats) to fill the gap between the Navy's river-patrol craft and high-seas ships, and exchanged fire with the enemy, incurring casualties. Until the mid-late 80s they did have ASW capabilities. However it was decided to better husband their very limited resources into what they do best -- for one, modern warfighting systems work best when integrated as a whole aboard a custom-made specialized combatant like a Perry-class frigate or a Burke-class destroyer, and not so well when tacked on to a general-purpose platform that also has to do law-enforcement/rescue/research/environmental-protection jobs (and in peacetime they mostly just sit there using up space and resources). They just recently announced a plan to do a full update of their assets, and about time -- the cutters and planes have been getting long in the tooth and spread thin.

[Monty]

Originally posted by starfish
The USCG may be an armed service, but so is the FBI, Customs, Border Patrol, etc.

FACT: The USCG is one of the nation's Armed Forcfes.
FACT: The FBI, the Customs Service, and the Border Patrol ARE NOT.

The USCG is only under the Department of Defense (Navy) in times of war.

Half right is still wrong. The Coast Guard is assigned to the Department of the Navy during times of War or National Emergency (as declared by the President). Regardless of which Executive Department it falls under at any particular time, it is still on of the nation's five Armed Forces.

In that sense, it is paramilitary.

Incorrect.

It's closer to civilian than military,

Now that's just horse apples. The USCG is 100% military. Its officers are Commissioned, its enlisted members enlist and re-enlist. It is a military service.

but does use military ranks.

That's because it's a military service. It uses (get this) COAST GUARD rates (enlisted) and ranks (warrant and commissioned officers).

The USCG does civilian law enforcement, which the military is not allowed to do.

Nice try, but no cupie doll. The USCG does the assigned military missions it exists to perform. Part of that is to defend the coasts (whod've guessed, hey?) from those who wish to violate the coast for illegal purposes.

Get back to me when you've a fact or two up your sleeve.

[Monty]

Be so kind as to edit in your mind the misspelling "Forcfes" back to "Forces" if you will.

[Monty]

BTW, JRD: Absolutely outstanding analysis you posted.

[Hemlock]

Right.

Back to the OP...

The USCG send vessels through HK from time to time to practice coastguard-type duties with other costguards. Typically, search-and-rescue and anti drug-smuggling operations. Other countries do the same thing with their military/paramilitary/law enforcement bodies. No big deal. US taxpayers might wish to ask whether their $$$ could be better spent, of course.

[Urban Ranger]

I am not aware of US warships visiting Hong Kong. AFAIK all warships visiting Hong Kong belong to the part of the Seventh Fleet stationed in Japan.

If the USCG is considered to be a police force it's another story, but it't not.

[LateComer]

Have a look at the Coast Guard Web Site:
Coast Guard Web Site (http://www.uscg.mil/overview/essence_of_the_coast_guard.htm)

Note the .mil designation.

The U.S. Coast Guard is a military, multi-mission, maritime service.

Also:


National Defense: Defend the nation as one of the five U.S. armed services. Enhance regional stability in support of the National Security Strategy, utilizing the Coast Guard’s unique and relevant maritime capabilities.


I don't know about Hong Kong but I know that the Coast has had a presence in the Persian Gulf since the Gulf war doing port security etc.

Another International function that they perform is the AMVER system of ship rescue. Amver surely doesn't require an international presence, but it's not simply a domestic function:


Amver is a ship reporting system for search and rescue. It is a global system that enables identification of other ships in the area of a ship in distress, which could then be sent to its assistance. Amver information is used only for search and rescue and is made available to any rescue coordination center in the world responding to a search and rescue case. The Coast Guard actively seeks to increase participation in this voluntary reporting system. Each year, more vessels participate in the system and more lives are saved. Currently, ships from more than 143 nations participate.

[Monty]

Hemlock:

What??? How is ensuring our freaking Coast Guard is trained not a good expenditure of money?

Oh, I guess you'd rather people just drown, ships' crews not be rescued, and the borders be a freaking sieve.

[shunt]

Monty:

Have a good close look at the CG's web site. I'll bet you find something in there about law enforcement. The CG does enforce maritime law on civilians all the time (one example, BUI), and that is something the other services cannot do (except under martial law).

[Monty]

shunt: I don't have much respect for intentional avoidance of facts. The USCG is a military service, it performs its assigned military duties. Those military duties include those aspects of maritime safety assigned to it.

[Milton De La Warre]

As I recall, the Seceretary of Transportation said in an all-hands message in 1993 or 1994 (first Clinton Administration, about the time the "Don't ask" thing was causing such a stir), that per his direction the policy of the USCG on homosexuality would NOT be the same as the DoD, but rather would be treated as described in my earlier post above. I worked for the USCG at the time.

While the CG does in practice adhere to much of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), as a part of the DoT, the Secretary of Transportation can and does issue policy directives which may add to or vary from UCMJ.

The mission of the USCG is significantly different from that of the armed services that form the DoD, as its homepage and various publications show.

Those familiar with the history of the service know that it was formed from the Revenue Cutter Service and the Lighthouse Service, neither of which were military services (part of the then Department of War). It was from 1915 (when today's CG was formed, if memory serves me right) until the 1970's a part of the Treasurary Deaprtment as befits its customs enforcing role. It is organized along military lines, but one could aruge that most US police departments are as well (with sergeants, captians, lieutenants, commanders, etc.). It has a military role in wartime or when assigned to areas where US forces are involved in conflicts, but its principal missions and indeed the majority of its missions are non-military.

[Milton De La Warre]

One other thing.... the Pose Comitatus law prohibits US military forces from being used as law enforcement forces. It allows them to assist law enforcement officers. USCG personnel are by law law enforcement officers, and can and do arrest people all the time. At one time ---and still now, for all I know--- Navy ships were assigned to assist the anti-drug effort in the Carribean, but because of the law a CG person had to be on board when Navy vessels were conducting such ops.

I would bet that even USCG Public Affairs in DC couldn't give you a straight answer why their web site is a .mil instead of a .gov. Maybe it has to do with them piggybacking on military webservers?

[Monty]

Oh, bullshit. The USCG can and does give a perfectly good explanation of why it's using a .mil address. As LateComer showed, their very website recognized that the USCG is one of the nation's five Armed Forces.

[shunt]

Originally posted by Monty
shunt: I don't have much respect for intentional avoidance of facts. The USCG is a military service, it performs its assigned military duties. Those military duties include those aspects of maritime safety assigned to it.

Monty: Show me how I was "avoiding facts." Please look at the following links. The CG does enforce civilian law; you stated (or at least implied) they don't. Other military branches cannot.

From http://www.uscg.mil/uscg.shtm:

You will see the following set of links under Maritime Security:

• Drug Interdiction • Alien Migrant Interdiction • EEZ & Living Marine Resource • General Maritime Law Enforcement • Law / Treaty Enforcement

From there you can find the following sites:

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opl/mle/welcome.htm


From the following link:
http://www.uscgboating.org/reg/reg_fr_boardingPolicy.asp
you can read the following:


Authority: Section 89 of Title 14 of the United States Code authorizes the Coast Guard to board vessels subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S., anytime upon the high seas and upon waters over which the United States has jurisdiction, to make inquiries, examinations, inspections, searches, seizures and arrests.

What to expect: A uniformed CG boarding team will notify you that they are coming aboard to conduct a CG boarding. Like other law enforcement officers, they will be armed. Once on board, they will conduct an initial safety inspection to identify any obvious safety hazards, and to ensure the seaworthiness of your vessel. The boarding officer will then ask to see the vessel registration or documentation, and proceed to inspect your vessel. The scope of the vessel inspection, during most boardings, is limited to determining the vessel's regulatory status (e.g. commercial, recreational, passenger, cargo, and/or fishing vessel) and checking for compliance with U.S. civil law applicable to vessels of that status. The CG may also enforce U.S. criminal law. The boarding officer will complete a Coast Guard boarding form, and note any discrepancies. You will get a signed copy before they depart.

[Scruloose]

I'm currently into 12th year active duty Coast Guard (Chief Boatswain Mate, if anyone cares), and to settle a few disputes or misperceptions that are common:

Coast Guard vessels 65' and over are CUTTERS. less than 65, they are boats. The sailing ship is Barque EAGLE, a war prize from WWII, originally the Horst Wessel. It trains CG Cadets from the Academy in New London, primarily.

The Coast Guard is indeed one of 5 branched of military. This is a matter of fact, not interpretation. It's distinction in this, is that it currently works for DOT; until 1967 it was DOJ. This enables the CG to enforce law, where the posse comitatus act would prevent it we were DOD. We are soon to be Dof HLS, if that passes. The CG initially formed in 1790, as the Revenue Cutter Service, in response to piracy and revenue issues facing the young country at the time. The CG will work for the Dept. of Navy when formal war is declared, or by direction of the POTUS.

The CG policy towards gays and lesbians is the same as DOD.

The CG has actively participated in every war this nation faced. For examples, many Normandy landing craft were CG-as were landing craft all throughout WWII. Our 1 MOH recipient, Douglas Munro, was killed saving many Marines from Japanese forces at Guadalcanal. The flag raised at Mt Suribachi, came from a CG vessel. The CG suffered heavy losses during WWI with the unenviable task of escort duties. The CG continues it's previously mentioned efforts in the Persian Gulf onboard Navy ships. During war, we're there, just not featured. The DOD boys and girls don't really need us, but we sure like to help when we can.

All E4 and above are, for the purposes of federal law enforcement,
Federal law officers. Whether or not that's what they are qualified to do, is an internal process.

The Coast Guard enforces international and federal law, and will assist with State or local law, at requests from those agencies.

We use .mil, because we are.

Basically, everything JCHeckler said is true, except points 1 and 3, of the first post. It sounds as if he/she was in the CG at some point, with their knowledge of the service.

As to the OP- it's probably a 378' Hamilton class cutter. They routinely travel across the globe, as do the ice breakers. That particular cutter may or may not be working with a Navy group. Often, 378's will deploy with a Navy fleet for 6 mos. or so. They may be alone, however. They will enforce international laws, perhaps on some type of fisheries mission. Also, the CG is very active with working with other nations' navies and CG's providing training, especially to the newly formed, post cold war nations, such as Georgia, et al.

I'd be happy to clarify any questions. I've been enlisted now for 12 yrs, a Boarding Officer for 10 years, did much counter-drug work in the Carribbean, much SAR, some AtoN, and currently Marine Inspection.



Lifer puddle pirate sends...

[Scruloose]

Originally posted by Chandeleur
Basically, everything JCHeckler said is true, except points 1 and 3, of the first post. It sounds as if he/she was in the CG at some point, with their knowledge of the service.

That is to say, points 1 and 3 at the bottom of the first post, or the second 1 and 3, or.... you know what I mean

(damn beer)

[Monty]

shunt: You're avoiding facts by pretending that the USCG's not a 100% military service.

I don't care what you pretend I implied. I stand by what I actually said.

Thanks, Chandeleur.

[Monty]

BTW, according to http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1385.html, this is what the law regarding Posse Comitatus prohibits:
Sec. 1385. - Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both

You'll notice that it only applies to the Army and the Air Force. The Navy and the Coast Guard are not included.

[shunt]

Monty:

This is from your post above:

Your quote: The USCG does civilian law enforcement, which the military is not allowed to do.

Your response: Nice try, but no cupie doll. The USCG does the assigned military missions it exists to perform. Part of that is to defend the coasts (whod've guessed, hey?) from those who wish to violate the coast for illegal purposes.

Get back to me when you've a fact or two up your sleeve.



My posts have been a response to that part of your post only. I realize fully well the CG is part of the military. When I first read that statement I interpreted it as "which the rest of the military is not..."

OK, the CG does law enforcement, is 100% military, but the rest of the military does not enforce civilian laws. I think that settles it, and we are in agreement. Sorry for my confusion.

[Monty]

No problem, shunt. I don't think I've ever mentioned this, but I have a few friends who've served in the Coast Guard. The idea that the Coast Guard "is less than military" is actually prevalent. And wrong.

[shunt]

From here:

http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm

"In order to understand the extent to which the Act has relevance today, it is important to understand to whom the Act applies and under what circumstances. The statutory language of the Act does not apply to all U.S. military forces.[2] While the Act has applicability to the Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marines, including their reserve components, it does not have any applicability to the Coast Guard, nor to the huge military manpower resources of the National Guard.[3] The National Guard, when it is operating in its state status pursuant to Title 32 of the U.S. Code is not subject to the prohibitions on civilian law enforcement. (Federal military forces operate pursuant to Title 10 of the U.S. Code.) In fact one of the express missions of the Guard is to preserve the laws of the state during times of emergency when regular law enforcement assets prove inadequate. It is only when federalized pursuant to an exercise of Presidential authority that the Guard becomes subject to the limitations of the Posse Comitatus Act."

[Scruloose]

Originally posted by Monty
The idea that the Coast Guard "is less than military" is actually prevalent. And wrong.

[off topic]
Quite the true statement. In the CG, you spend your first few years proactively combatting this misperception, in both civilian and military circles alike. After much frustration, you just get used to it, and carry on as professional sailors. The folks that need us the most, the mariners out there, they know full well who we are, and I believe most of them appreciate us. We do our best with what little (comparitively) we have. Your support is noted, and most appreciated.
For a look into what we sometimes face, I suggest a quick look here (http://www.aug.edu/~libwrw/)

[/off topic]

Hooligans Navy Sailor sends....

[Paul in Qatar]

Gosh, sorry for all the excitment I seem to have caused.

Of course the USCG is military. Sure as shootin'

Still it's law enforcement character makes it more acceptable for port calls from time to time and from place to place than misty-gray USN ships.

(Now the Civil Air Patrol, THEY are paramilitary.)

[Monty]

The two USN aircraft carriers on which I served made a lot of perfectly acceptable port visits throughout the Pacific Rim, to include Hong Kong. I really enjoyed the Tsim Sha Tsui district!

Other places visited aboard a Navy ship: Diego Garcia, Sasebo, Yokosuka (that's a "gimmee," it's the homeport of my last ship), Pusan, Abu Dhabi, Jebel Ali, Pattaya Beach, just to name a few.

[starfish]

OK, I got the wrong stuff started.

The USCG is paramilitary. The USCG performs BOTH military actions and civilian law enforcement actions. It is under the DOT, not DOD. But in times of war, or the directed by the President, it acts under the DOD.

WHEN it acts as military, it is part of the Navy and a USCG ship has as much authority, and regulations, as any USN ship.

WHEN acting in their civilian role, they have as much authority as the FBI, Customs, etc - way more than any Navy ship does.

Paramilitary does not mean a military want-to-be. The USCG is both military and civilian. It has the power of both in a single organization.

[Scruloose]

Originally posted by Paul in Saudi
Still it's law enforcement character makes it more acceptable for port calls from time to time and from place to place than misty-gray USN ships.

Well, that and the fact that we haven't closed down any Australian brothels lately. We just simply don't have enough people on board the cutters :D

Monty: Any chance you were on the Sara?

[Monty]

Did you forget to read the rest of the thread, stafish? The United States Coast Guard is not a paramilitary.

From Webster's
Main Entry: para·mil·i·tary
Pronunciation: "par-&-'mi-l&-"ter-E
Function: adjective
Date: 1935
: of, relating to, being, or characteristic of a force formed on a military pattern especially as a potential auxiliary military force <a paramilitary border patrol> <paramilitary training>
Also:
Main Entry: [2]military
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural military also mil·i·tar·ies
Date: 1736
1 : military persons; especially : army officers
2 : ARMED FORCES
I invite your attention to definition 2 therein and also to this:
Main Entry: armed forces
Function: noun plural
Date: 1942
: the combined military, naval, and air forces of a nation — called also armed services
And
Main Entry: coast guard
Function: noun
Date: 1833
1 : a military or naval force employed in guarding a coast or responsible for the safety, order, and operation of maritime traffic in neighboring waters
So, just in case you haven't figured it out yet, the USCG is not paramilitary. It is not "both military and civilian." It is military. It is one of this nation's five Armed Forces.

Your fist posting in this thread already proves that you don't understand what the Armed Forces are.

[Snetho]

In June somewhere around Long Island Sound, close to New London CT, I saw a beautiful ship that said "China Coast Guard" on the side. I assumed from that that English must be the universal marine languge...

[Yeah]

JCHeckler: "2. The USCG is the only fully gender integrated US uniformed service. There are no jobs that are exclusively assigned to males (or females)."

I find it hard to believe that there are any jobs in the USPHS "that are exclusively assigned to males (or females). Ditto for NOAA.

Chandeleur: "The Coast Guard is indeed one of 5 branched of military. This is a matter of fact, not interpretation. It's distinction in this, is that it currently works for DOT; until 1967 it was DOJ."

Not DOJ. It was under of Treasury.

[Scruloose]

Originally posted by Yeah
JCHeckler: "2. The USCG is the only fully gender integrated US uniformed service. There are no jobs that are exclusively assigned to males (or females)."

I find it hard to believe that there are any jobs in the USPHS "that are exclusively assigned to males (or females). Ditto for NOAA.

I'm gonna guess that what JCH meant was armed service.

Originally posted by Yeah
Chandeleur: "The Coast Guard is indeed one of 5 branched of military. This is a matter of fact, not interpretation. It's distinction in this, is that it currently works for DOT; until 1967 it was DOJ."

Not DOJ. It was under of Treasury.

:smack: Of course, Treas Dept. I don't know what I was thinking. Friends don't let friends drink and post. Thanks for the catch.