Target Stores: ...85, 86, 87, , 89, 90...

[Joe_Cool]

According to this article (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,61622,00.html), the number 88 is a nazi code for "Heil Hitler", becuase H is the 8th letter of the alphabet. Obviously, '88'='HH'='Heil Hitler'.

Now is it just me, or have things gotten utterly freaking stupid? What next? Do we launch a campaign to eliminate all occurrences of the number 8? I graduated from High School in '88. What are the implications of that?

Just to be safe, maybe we should avoid the German language, along with all English words derived from German (Our daughter is going to start Child Refining in a week, then next year it'll be off to first grade!). Perhaps we can bomb Germany again, just to make sure.

Come on, give me a break! :rolleyes:

Oh, uh, this isn't just a rant. I'm curious. Does this action have any merit? Is anybody actually offended by the number 88? I mean, aside from the obvious reference to famous drug addict Michael Irvin.

[blowero]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool
I graduated from High School in '88. What are the implications of that?

Nazi bastard!

[Mojo]

When I first saw the article I thought it was meritless. Then I saw a pic of the clothing and thought, you know, this does look like something a white supremacist would wear (http://www.sacbee.com/ips_rich_content/474-0828target01.jpg).

[ElJeffe]

According to the article, it sounds as if "88" is or was a widely used insignia among Nazis and neo-Nazis. Beyond that, though, I can't say much about the validity of this "outrage". Did the "88" used by the Nazis have a particular font, or style to it? Does this clothing mimic that font or style? Why was the number "88" used in this clothing? Was it derived from a source that could be logically traced back to Nazism? Did they just think the number "88" was cool? If someone produced a line of clothing that had "SS" on it in the jagged font that was used by the Nazi secret police, for example, I could see room for some contraversy. This could be something like that. Or maybe not. Based on the article, it's hard to form an opinion, but knowing the PC culture, I'm going to lean towards this being an overreaction. I'd like some more info on this, though, so I can form an informed opinion. Anybody?

Jeff

[wring]

glad some one posted the actual article. The OP sounded like the am radio jock this morning ranting and raving about 'so, now, you can't have something cost $.88?'

and that's not it at all. The Target stores have taken off the shelves certain clothing items that had the number '88' as part of the motiff (like one would see the symbol for the New York Yankees for example). So, they're not at all attempting to ban the number, just not carrying a clothing line that used it as a symbol.

why?

well, again, according to the article, a shopper noted that prominent display of the number "88" was part of a neo-nazi groups' literature and reportedly was how they 'signaled' to each other who they were.

This wasn't some rant/rave thing, from what I could see. This was a level headed corporate response to information that they might unwittingly be assisting /supporting some neo-nazi subculter at worst, and at best, might have some weird consequences for unsuspecting customers who purchased the items and wore them in the wrong areas.

[Padeye]

Here's a link to the Sacremento Bee article (http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/4166431p-5189225c.html)

I'm not quite ready to give up any number that could possibly mean something to a hate group but there may be something to it.

[Kimstu]

Excuse me while I shed a personal tear over this one: the number 88 always recalls to me my late (Jewish) father (who finally managed to get accepted into the military to serve in WWII after multiple rejections because of medical problems), since it was his favorite "random" number. (You know, a number that you use like "a bajillion" to mean "indefinite but large", as in the expression "I've told you kids 88 times..." :)) We always used to ask him why "88", and he would always respond with the perfectly logical-sounding but perfectly irrelevant fact that 88 is the number of keys on a piano. (Dad didn't play the piano, btw.)

Now I learn that 88 is a neo-Nazi codeword, and if I go on using Dad's "random number" I may be inadvertently sending a message of support to hate groups. Thanks, world. :(

[Jackmannii]

Well, thankfully, this alert corporate action will keep neo-Nazis from communicating with each other.


Just like when the phone company in N.Y. removed the numbers from pay phones, so that drug dealers were unable to pass messages back and forth. :rolleyes:

[mobo85]

Not a Nazi symbol, but a neo-Nazi symbol.

88 is often found on hate group flyers, in both the greetings and closing comments of letters written by neo-Nazis, and in e-mail addresses.
Anti-Defamation League

I'm okay with this as long as Target only recalls these hats and shirts and not Eric Lindros uniforms and things like that.

[tracer]

Weird ... my real estate agent said I should set the price of the house I was selling to be "$468,888" because prospective buyers who were Chinese would apparently like the number "888". He said it was "good Fung Shui."

So is 88 now "bad" but 888 "good"? I feel like I'm behind the 8-ball here.

[tracer]

Originally posted by ElJeffe
If someone produced a line of clothing that had "SS" on it in the jagged font that was used by the Nazi secret police, for example, I could see room for some contraversy.
You mean like the rock band KISS does?

[leenmi]

I saw something about this on another board. They were very adamant about Target's need to stop carrying this clothing.

I had never heard of the neo-nazi connection to 88, so I sat back and thought about what 88 brought to my mind:

"rocket 88" from some old song.

my olds '88 delta 88. That car went around corners like it was on a bungee cord.

nothing about neo-nazi hatred.

I chalk this up to the same thing as people claiming the the band 311's name is actually a Kl Klux Klan reference (K being the 11 letter of the alphabet and 3 11s being KKK). Don't like the band, but I'm pretty certain they ain't KKK sympathizers.

[DMC]

From non-hate groups:

Anti-Defamation League (http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/numbers_88.html)

Swedish Antifascistisk Aktion-Stockholm (http://www.student.uit.no/~paalde/nazismexposed/Scripts/Reports/swedish-scene97.html)

The United Methodist Church (http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/anti-hate/symbolsofhate.html)

Southern Poverty Law Center (http://www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-hatesymbols.html)

If these folks put it on the same lists as the swastika, then I can't really blame Target for pulling the items.

For those who think my cites might have a bias, straight from the horse's (or asshole's, if you prefer, as I do) mouth:

Stormfront (http://www.stormfront.org/crusader/texts/whatis88.html)

[Duckster]

Don't forget that Target is company that chose on its own to remove the clothing line. There is no law or regulation requiring them to do so.

Target decided they had a duty to their shareholders, and their customers, to not promote something which some segments of society use for their own ends. It was a compassionate business decision.

It might help to determine a timeline as to when neo-nazi groups started using the number for themselves. This might reduce/eliminate the hysteria that all instances of the number must have a perceived connection with neo-nazis. After all, I suspect the Olds Delta 88 greatly predates any neo-nazi notion to use the number for their own ends.

As the OP illustrated with his comments about the German language, etc., the point is pretty clear. You can find any conspiracy, innuendo, etc., anywhere you choose if you look hard enough and have the mindset to see it.

It's hard to fight ignorance when so many are too ignorant to know they are ignorant, let alone eliminate their ignorance. :)

[Typo Negative]

Originally posted by Mojo
When I first saw the article I thought it was meritless. Then I saw a pic of the clothing and thought, you know, this does look like something a white supremacist would wear (http://www.sacbee.com/ips_rich_content/474-0828target01.jpg). Does anybody else see Mr Hanky in between the eights?



IMO, Target can choose to sell, or not to sell, what ever it's comfy with. But doesn't it seem a little like playing into somebody's hand here. I mean, ' 88' meaning 'Heil Hitler', if true, is obscure at best. But no longer. It's almost as if they are saying 88 officially means this and can mean nothing else. To me, it seems to legitimize the code of some brain-dead miscreants

[Jackmannii]

Now that I think back on the type of driver I used to see behind the wheel of Olds Delta 88s....hmmm.........

tracer, all those 8s are not going to help your home sale unless you also have a curving path to the front door. Those straight paths are very bad feng shui.
Let us know if your open house draws a lot of mean-looking white guys with shaved heads and tattoos.

[davidw]

Does anyone know who the maker of those clothes is? Have they had any comment on the controversy?

[tracer]

Jackmannii: Well, that would explain why the people who eventually bought my house weren't Chinese. Its front walkway is straight as an arrow.

[Dryga_Yes]

Heh. I'm just surprised that there are people here that don't know about the connotations "88" (and "18") have. :)







(NO, I'm not a neo-nazi!)

[Darwin's Finch]

So when Alice Cooper was singing about being "18", it was a veiled message about being Adolf Hitler reborn?

[wring]

No, Darwin's Finch - as a cursory examination of the cites here would have demonstrated.

No one would question it, if the symbol were the swastika.

but the number '88' hadn't been a symbol in the past and has apparently been adopted by these neo nazis now as 'their' symbol.

[Joe_Cool]

That's funny...the only connotation of 88 that I've ever been aware of is 23x11.

Wait...2 x 2 x 2 x 11. B is the 2nd letter, K is the 11th... BBBK... Backstreet Boys Blow Kangaroos? nah...Backstreet Boys/Burger King!! The connection was foretold!

Hold on, 3 2's, and an 11. that must mean 32 x 11... *HORROR* 9/11 !!!

Or wait a minute, K is the 11th letter. 3 K 2: KKK2!!!! OMIGOD!!!! We need to do away with these damn arabic numerals. OH NO!! Arabic! Arab muslim fundamentalists attacked on 9/11!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUGH!!!!!!

Wow, that number 88 really is evil.

come on, people, get real! You can play these stupid games all f-ing day long. And none of them mean any more than the ones I just did.

[Joe_Cool]

And if '18' is Hitler reborn, then we'd better do something about that voting age.

[wring]

Joe - yes, anyone can play games. However, for example, the Cripes have gang symbols. Would you object if Taget refused to sell clothing with those symbols prominently displayed? would you consider it a game?

The neo nazis' themselves have apparently used this as their symbol. Much like the elephant for the GOP and the donkey for the Dems. What Target is doing is not allowing their store to be used as a way for this group as an outlet for their symbol.

not the 'number 88' in any context. The number 88 used as a symbol on a clothing line.

Do you seriously not see the difference between that and what you posted?

[Joe_Cool]

Ok, ok, you've convinced me. Starting now, I have adopted the number 37 as my personal symbol. Anybody who uses it is promoting me and my ideology.

wring, a number is a number. Numbers existed long before neo-nazis did (and even before the original nazis did), and the number 88 is no exception. Crips gang symbols are hand signs and stylized symbols that were not previously in common usage (or even existence). UNLIKE the number 88.

Unless you count blue sweatshirts and handkerchiefs, which, I should add, Target still sells.

[wring]

So, just because it's used one way it can never become a symbol?

Odd, because the swastika had prior use, but now is universally seen as a symbol of Hitler and the Nazis.

And, of course, since numbers are merely numbers, you would find it odd that mainstream stores would be unlikely to carry clothing with the number "69" emblazoned.

[Mojo]

Note that the clothing line uses "eight eight" (same format as the skinheads and neo-nazis use) and not "eighty eight" as the spelling. And look at the stuff for cripes sakes!

At first I thought it was ultra PC busybodies with too much time on their hands. Now I think it's a case of "if it walks like a duck...."

I would be interested to find out who designed this stuff.

[More Cowbell]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool
Ok, ok, you've convinced me. Starting now, I have adopted the number 37 as my personal symbol. Anybody who uses it is promoting me and my ideology.

wring, a number is a number. Numbers existed long before neo-nazis did (and even before the original nazis did), and the number 88 is no exception. Crips gang symbols are hand signs and stylized symbols that were not previously in common usage (or even existence). UNLIKE the number 88.

Unless you count blue sweatshirts and handkerchiefs, which, I should add, Target still sells.

If Target were selling 666 with some dancing demon like figures in the back, you would say "it's just a number, lighten up people!"? Would an upside-down crucifix be ok? After all, they are JUST lines that intersect.

Sometimes a cigar is not just a cigar (http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/anti-hate/symbolsofhate.html).

Between these shirts (with eight eight spelled out and skulls that you see associated with neo-nazi) and Umbro (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020828/ap_wo_en_po/france_offensive_shoes_1) selling shoes named Zyklon, I wonder who's in charge of some of these companies or at the very least design and marketing departments.

[Greyson3]

That's strange. I thought it was pretty well known what "88" means. Maybe I travel in strange circles, but when I hear 88 I think of heil Hitler pretty well before I think of piano keys or Eric Lindross. And that there on that hat is no hockey logo.

I suspect that it is much more familliar to your kids than it is to you, which would explain why it wasn't caught until somebody complained about it.

[zweisamkeit]

I'm 20 and I've never heard of the 88 significance before.

I'll be honest and say I didn't know that Target had clothes with '88' on them (I don't go to Target often), but I'd think they were just making apparel with a number. K-Mart has their Route-66 clothing, with shirts having '66' on the front. Before reading this thread, I'd just figure that Target was making similar numbered clothes.

[ShetlandPony]

I hate to disappoint you all but the use of 88 as a sign for Neo-Nazis is real. It comes from Germany where displaying any form of Nazi insgnia is illegal ( I am sure you understand why). To get around this German Neo-Nazis and skinheads use other signs on their clothes and to name organisations. This has lead to popularity of Helly Hansen ( initials! )and Lonsdale sportswear. ( loNSDAle = Nazionale Sozialistiche Deutsche Arbieter Pprtei). Such signs even go so far as to the colour of the laces worn on boots.

Such things help the thugs know whose side thay are on when they are kicking some non-Aryan to death.

[Jack Batty]

Originally posted by ShetlandPony
I hate to disappoint you all but the use of 88 as a sign for Neo-Nazis is real.

Big deal.

If I and 150 friends decide that the number 12 really means "Fuck Jerry Lewis," does it really matter in the long run to anybody but me and my friends? Will I be barred from traveling to France if I have a Jim Kelly jersey on?

No.

88 as standing for "Heil Hitler", while adhered to by some, is so friggin' juvenile as to be laughable. Let them be idiots ... er ... bigger idiots.

[Tuckerfan]

And, of course, since numbers are merely numbers, you would find it odd that mainstream stores would be unlikely to carry clothing with the number "69" emblazoned.

Unless, of course, it was a Gap store. But then, it's no surprise that they would have "69" on their clothing, since the chain was founded in 1969. (And no, there's not a "19" before the "69" on all their clothing. Much of it, is [or was, when I worked for them], in fact, just "69.")

Of course, now that word's gotten out as to what "88" means to some groups, Abercrombie and Fitch will be plastering it all over their new line of thongs for infant girls.

[wring]

Originally posted by Tuckerfan
Of course, now that word's gotten out as to what "88" means to some groups, Abercrombie and Fitch will be plastering it all over their new line of thongs for infant girls.


SHhhhhhh A & F don't need any help coming up with stupid ideas.

[tracer]

Originally posted by wring
And, of course, since numbers are merely numbers, you would find it odd that mainstream stores would be unlikely to carry clothing with the number "69" emblazoned.
I remember a brand of women's bluejeans, targeted at teen-aged females, named "For Play." Of course, the company that made the jeans publically denied that it meant anything other than that the jeans were for playing in, but everybody knew what it really meant.

I would think that a line of clothing with "69" on it would be a big seller!

[Tuckerfan]

So, does this mean that the poster [/b]flyboy88[/b] is a Nazi and does he know that he's supposed to be one, since he's got 88 in his username?

[Fred]

Um, mainstream stores do sell shirts with "69" on them. Usually with "Playboy" or "AllStar" before the number. They're real cool with the kids.

[DMC]

I'm just curious...

If it were known that the designer's intent was indeed to allow those in the know to identify each other through this number, would the OP be okay with Target selling it?

Would it make a difference whether Target knew the intent or not?

[The Great Unwashed]

I think it's a good idea to allow fuck-witted neo-nazis to identify themselves in this way. Very democratic of them.

Of course the same goes for those wearing 69, which clearly corresponds to F(6)ucking I(9)diot.

[KGS]

Originally posted by tracer
Originally posted by ElJeffe
If someone produced a line of clothing that had "SS" on it in the jagged font that was used by the Nazi secret police, for example, I could see room for some contraversy.
You mean like the rock band KISS does?
Funny you mention that. In fact, KISS albums released in Germany change the logo so the "SS" resembles a pair of backwards Z's. Here's a link (http://ultmetal.themadpoet.net/Images/kiss_killer.jpg) to an example.