88 = Heil Hitler? Eh?

[RiverRunner]

IIRC, there was a story a couple of weeks ago about a department store -- Target, I think -- pulling a line of clothing because of a logo that looked like the number 88. Presumably, the number stands for "Heil Hitler," the letter H being the eighth in the alphabet.

My first thought was that it was one of the stupidest things I'd ever heard (88 being a neo-Nazi-type symbol, that is), but apparently it is true. Can anyone corroborate it?

Even if it's true, it has to be one of the most lame-brained symbols I've ever heard of. Sounds like an Oldsmobile.


RR

[Crusoe]

"88" was the nickname for the ubiquitous 88mm anti-tank/anti-aircraft gun put to fearsome use by the German military in World War II. Maybe it's the association with that?

It does sound a little silly though, particularly in comparison with the current 'Zyklon' furore.

FWIW, Adolf Hitler's initials are the basis for the British neo-Nazi group Combat 18.

[KneadToKnow]

Here's one link I found:

http://www.student.uit.no/~paalde/nazismexposed/Scripts/faq.html

[Crusoe]

...of course, I could be complete wrong with my theory. Oops.

[Opengrave]

I think it is pretty well known that '88' is a neo-nazi slogan. I'm not going to look up any refereces but it has been mentioned on several documentaries I have seen on TV. RiverRunner's explanation is the one I have always heard. H=8 so 88=HH or Heil Hitler.

NP: Lacuna Coil - Unleashed Memories

[RiverRunner]

It does sound a little silly though, particularly in comparison with the current 'Zyklon' furore.

Que? Have I missed something else? Obviously, I haven't been keeping up with the news lately.


RR

[DMark]

2, 21, 12, 12, 19, 8, 9, 20

[black rabbit]

Note: This post contains a link to a white power record label's website. I hate the bastards, but I figured what better evidence than from the neo-nazis themselves?

Search results for '88' in the Resistance Records catalog (http://www.resistance.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=88&x=13&y=11).

Note how they also sell "___elry." Cute.

[starfish]

Think about how the clothes got there.

Did clerk say to the manager "I had two more people ask for some shirts with 88 on them." Eventually the manager would call corporate and say "We had 100 people this year ask for 88 clothes. Why don't you print some up.":p

More likely it is a normal brand of clothes that some professional complainer decided to get offended by.

What next, complain to the moderator about all the 88s in this topic and get it moved to the Pit. :smack:

Which Nazi inspired the 33 on Rolling Rock? :D

[Johnny L.A.]

Hm. I always thought "88" was a secret code for "Howard Hughes".

Unless... Wait! Howard Hughes was a Nazi!!?? :eek:

And what about Harry Houdini? And all of those people who wore letter jackets in high school, who graduated in 1988? :eek: :eek:

;) :D

[Nametag]

It's fairly simple to see how they got into the store. The buyers get people in all the time pushing "the next big thing" -- if one of these merchandise guys has a client who makes this neo-nazi crap, he will tell the buyer that "it's a youth symbol." The merchandiser may know (or not) what it really is. Target won't say who manufactured them.

The clothing in question features an "88" with skulls, and what appears to be a little human figure. The pictures I found aren't very good.

[RiverRunner]

Note: This post contains a link to a white power record label's website.


They have a record label? (Thanks for the link, but I'm not about to go there.) You have got to be kidding me. I'm beginning to think I was transported to a different planet sometime recently. This is still Earth, right? This place gets stranger every day.


Thanks for the info,
RR

[KneadToKnow]

Originally posted by RiverRunner
Que? Have I missed something else? Obviously, I haven't been keeping up with the news lately.
Come and listen to a story 'bout some morons (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020905/od_uk_nm/oukoe_tech_siemens_zyklon_3)

[jk1245]

It's actually a well-known (albeit pretty stupid) Neo-Nazi symbol. It even appeared in American History X (http://us.imdb.com/Trivia?0120586) (allegedly).


Next, be on the lookout for shirts with "13" on them. The 13th letter of the alphabet is "M" which stands for either marijuana or methamphetamine (depending on who you ask) and means the person either uses or deals (depending on who you ask). I'm sure they will be hitting malls near you soon.

[Derleth]

This whole scenario is stupid. So far, the Nazis and Neo-Nazis have been able to co-opt:

A whole class of variants on the cross, including variants used by Asian religions that have existed into near-prehistory.
Anything to do with the runic alphabet used by pre-Roman Celtic and Germanic peoples, including certain Nordic mythologies.
A complete fucking subgenre of punk rock, including the originally nonracist skinhead style, something that poisons the whole genre to people who don't know any better.
The number eighty-eight.

I think it's time we retake what's ours. It's time we stopped letting them decide what the rest of us can and can't wear.

:mad:

[brad_d]

Well-known it may be, but not in my circles. I'd never heard of the 88 = "Heil Hitler" bit until I read the article. Neither had my wife.

As such, I can totally sympathize with the dude who made the buy at Target not being aware, either.

[red_dragon60]

I think it's a pretty grabasstically long reach, much like the "311=KKK band" theory. Shirts with numbers on them are popular because the preppy look is wearing shirts with numbers and fake teams on them. I know a pod of cheerleaders who have matching shirts with 88 on them, maybe they are a front for neo-nazis...


And Derleth, I am also pissed about their co-opting of the anti-racist skinhead movement.

[MarkyDeSade]

I second that, [b]brad_d[/]. I had never heard of any connotation - negative or otherwise - relating to the number 88.

Ahh, well, ignorance is bliss. I'm just going to keep on living as if I had never learned of such a thing. Denial? Maybe, but I think it's a pretty stupid thing to get worked-up over.

[Stink Fish Pot]

This is bad news for Lynn Swann!

[occ]

Originally posted by starfish
More likely it is a normal brand of clothes that some professional complainer decided to get offended by.


I think you win the prize, here. I mean, why believe that "88" was used simply because its a very slick looking, symmetrical number when you can dubiously connect it to Hitler and Neo-Nazis?

It only takes one uninformed reporter to print that this is an example of a popular Neo-Nazi graffito to stir up some faux-offense. Hell, this thread could easily be used as a "source", and bingo, instant credibility for this.

It's not *always* devious, organized racists. In fact, it pretty much never is.

[JKilez]

Wow! Wal-Mart frequently prices items so that they end in ".88". I always thought in indicated a temporary price reduction, but now I see the truth: Wal-Mart = Neo Nazi Evil! No wonder Target wants no part of it.

[tsarina]

"88" was a popular graffito after the war in Germany, when the occupying powers forbade any obvious references to Hitler or the Nazis. I recall reading in the diary of Ruth Andreas-Friedrich (a journalist living in Berlin during the war) that she saw it often during a trip to Hamburg circa 1946-47.

[Northern Piper]

Originally posted by occ
I think you win the prize, here. I mean, why believe that "88" was used simply because its a very slick looking, symmetrical number when you can dubiously connect it to Hitler and Neo-Nazis?Actually, I've come across its use with this meaning in my work. For further information, check out www.tolerance.org, which is one of the internet fora of the Southern Poverty Law Centre puts out. They collect actual examples of the symbols used by neo-Nazi groups, on the web or in other publications. Try this link (http://www.tolerance.org/rthas/section4_1_2.jsp), which includes "88" along with some other more obvious, ugly, symbols.

[Northern Piper]

Originally posted by RiverRunner



They have a record label? (Thanks for the link, but I'm not about to go there.) You have got to be kidding me. I'm beginning to think I was transported to a different planet sometime recently. This is still Earth, right? This place gets stranger every day.


Thanks for the info,
RR

Not surprisingly, the late unlamented (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127237) William Pierce, of the National Alliance, was heavily involved in white power records. (Pierce was also the author of The Turner Diaries, Tim McVeigh's favourite reading and likely his inspiration for OKC.)

Here's a quote from www.tolerance.org's obit of Pierce (http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_hate.jsp?id=586):Pierce, never accused of being slow-witted, clearly understood the power of emerging technologies and hitched his group to the technology train, launching a high-tech web operation -- in five languages.

His latest, and last, venture was the purchase of Resistance Records -- a hatecore music production and distribution house -- that reportedly pulled in upwards of $1 million annually.

Even more than the money, Pierce saw Resistance Records as a doorway into the ripe recruiting grounds of the hate music scene.

"William Pierce owned the premiere hatecore distributor in the Western hemisphere, and this music, more than any other single factor, is responsible for the recruitment of young people into the white supremacist movement," Potok said. "He wants to reach young people. His goal is to change the way that white people in the world think."And this is from the Anti-Defamation League's article on the National Alliance (http://www.adl.org/learn/ext%5Fus%5Fbackup/n%5Falliance.asp), Pierce's Neo-Nazi organization:White Power Music Connection

In 1999, William Pierce and the National Alliance developed a new means of communicating with possible young recruits. In April of that year he purchased Resistance Records, a music company that features white power bands playing a mix of folk, rock, Oi and heavy metal music, with fierce lyrics directed against Jews and other minorities. Resistance was originally founded in 1993 by neo-Nazi skinheads from Canada who operated the company out of Detroit in order to avoid Canada's strict anti-hate propaganda laws. In addition to selling CDs, the company published Resistance magazine, which featured articles on the white power music scene. American and Canadian authorities investigating tax evasion charges and violations of Canada's anti-hate propaganda laws raided Resistance in 1997; the company was temporarily put out of business until it was purchased in 1998 by Pierce's old nemesis, Willis Carto, and Carto's business partner, Todd Blodgett, a former low-level staffer in the Reagan administration. Pierce and Blodgett later worked out the deal that led to Pierce's taking control of Resistance.

In the fall of 1999, Pierce also purchased Nordland Records, a Swedish white power music company, and folded it into Resistance Records, in effect doubling the company's inventory. In addition to selling CDs, Pierce relaunched Resistance magazine, which had ceased production since the raid on the company.
Sometimes I wish I didn't know about this stuff, but it's part of my job. :( :(

[amanset]

Similarly the British neo-nazi group "Combat 18" uses 18 because "A" is 1 and "H" is 8, (A)dolf (H)itler.

[Daoloth]

Originally posted by Nametag

The clothing in question features an "88" with skulls, and what appears to be a little human figure. The pictures I found aren't very good.

I saw some of the 88 shirts myself, but none did I see with skulls. Do you have any pictures of this?

[elmwood]

Originally posted by Derleth
[B]This whole scenario is stupid. So far, the Nazis and Neo-Nazis have been able to co-opt: (snip) The number eighty-eight.
/B]

Let's not forget the numbers 5 (5 words, "I have nothing to say"), 14 (14 words, ""We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."), 18 ("Adolph Hitler"), 83 (HC, "Heil Christ"), 23 (W, "White"), 33 (3xK=33, "KKK"), 311 (3xK, "KKK"), 336 (33 + 6th era of Klan, "KKK"), 419 (4/19, Oklahoma City bombing), 420 (4/20, Hitler's birthday), and 100% ("pure white").

Pretty soon, the Neo-Nazis will grab 1 ("Adolph"), 3 ("Caucasian"), 4 ("Deutschland,"), 8 ("Hitler"), 198 (19=S, 8=H, "seig heil"), and 3.1414926538... (pi, representing a perfect circle, perfect being the Aryan race, which also probably contains a sequence of numbers that corresponds to the first letters of words in some speech by Hitler), 90 (Interstate 90, which runs through Idaho), and 13 (M, "Minnesota," where a lot of white people live).

If this keeps up, it looks like we'll be going to Roman numerals and Chinese pictograms.

[Derleth]

elmwood: 420, the number of pothead Neos.

"Dude, Heil Heil pass! You're throwing off the rhythm!"

"WHITE ::cough:: ! WHITE ::cough:: ! ::incoherent giggling::"

No more pitiful than the rest of the group. :rolleyes: