Iraq is a black country? WTF is Mandela talking about?

[5-HT]

First off, let me preface this by saying that I respect the things that Nelson Mandela has done for South Africa, and up until now had great respect for him as a human being. However, I was reading this interview (http://www.msnbc.com/news/806174.asp?cp1=1) with him and he busted out this gem:
But what we know is that Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody talks about that. Why should there be one standard for one country, especially because it is black, and another one for another country, Israel, that is white.
What the hell!? On what planet is Iraq a "black country"? I wish the interviewer had possessed the balls to call him on this and ask him to explain exactly how you can have two countries full of Semitic peoples, but one is black and the other is white.
oh, and lest anyone think he was alluding to a black/white=evil/good comparison rather than race, the next question was "So you see this as a racial question?", to which he responded:
Well, that element is there. In fact, many people say quietly, but they don’t have the courage to stand up and say publicly, that when there were white secretary generals you didn’t find this question of the United States and Britain going out of the United Nations.*
I think it is totally contemptable to try and bring race into this. If you want to say some kind of bigotry is driving the U.S., fine, make your case. But making stupid shit like this up is just asinine.


*to be fair, he goes on to say this particular sentiment is not his own. But he apparently see's enough validity in it to warrant bringing it up anyway

[Coldfire]

Hmmm. Seems to me mr Mandela is trying to differentiate between "white/Christian/Jewish" countries, and "black/third world/Muslim/non-Christian" countries. Poorly phrased, and a broad brush to say the least. Still, if the point is that Israel is America's ally, and therefore isn't questioned about its arsenal in the same way Iraq (or Pakistan and India, to an extent) is, he's got something of a point.

I certainly agree with you that a man of his experience, importance, and knowledge ought to word his thoughts more carefully.

[Captain Amazing]

Maybe he meant "European/non-European" country, or "white/non-white" but phrased it white/black, because that's his traditional frame of reference. While Israel isn't in Europe, it was founded by Europeans, and much of the leadership is either European or of European descent.

[Guinastasia]

I think he's using black and white as general terms. For example, people think of Iraq as "foreign", etc. They're "black", as in, not white. "White" means, like Us, meaning the US, "white folks", etc.

At one time, Jews, Slavs, Irish, etc, were not considered to be "white", or at least, not true "whites".

He wasn't saying Iraq is "black", just that a lot of people think of it as they would "blacks."

[sailor]

Let's not pussyfoot here, he screwed up big time.

[World Eater]

Iraq is black.

It must be true, it rhymes.

[black rabbit]

Actually, mandela was making a cryptic reference to that scene in CB4:


Iraq is black it's Iraq y'all,
Iraqer than black and it's black y'all,
Black-bliggity-raq-black-black-Iraqety black,
Iraq and it's black it's Iraq.

[mswas]

Heh, so I suppose that makes Japan a white country, as we give them special allowances because they are our allies, whereas North Korea is a black country.

Hick voice, "Hey y'all we should go and pro-tect our buddies in Japan cuz dem niggers in North Korea's out t'get'em."

I guess that means Kuwait is also white. Pakistan and India even!

I wonder if Mandela's getting alzheimer's. I also wonder if he realizes that a large portion of the Israeli population resemble Iraqis physically, more than they resemble me.

Erek

[Daoloth]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
I think he's using black and white as general terms. For example, people think of Iraq as "foreign", etc. They're "black", as in, not white. "White" means, like Us, meaning the US, "white folks", etc.

It's still rather strange and misleading, if that's the case. It's also unnervingly akin to the "us and them" mentality.

[matt_mcl]

Well... yeah. The US is fairly definitive about who are its allies and whose ass it wouldn't piss on if it was on fire.

[Tamerlane]

Originally posted by World Eater
Iraq is black.

It must be true, it rhymes.

Only if you mispronounce "Iraq" :).

- Tamerlane

[World Eater]

Originally posted by Tamerlane


Only if you mispronounce "Iraq" :).

- Tamerlane

Or in my case you mispronounce "black"

[johnson]

I think he's using black and white as general terms. For example, people think of Iraq as "foreign", etc. They're "black", as in, not white. "White" means, like Us, meaning the US, "white folks", etc. So Nelson Mandela sees himself as white? And I suppose P.W. Botha is black?

[ruadh]

Er, maybe not everybody in the world uses the same definitions of "black" and "white" as we do? I know in Britain I've seen references to Indian/ Pakistani people as "black". Maybe it's not uncommon in parts of the world to also include Arabs in that term.

[sailor]

>> Maybe it's not uncommon in parts of the world to also include Arabs in that term.

And just *maybe* I am Superman. There is no way an intelligent, cultured, person would believe Arabs are "black". In any case, that would make Jews also black because Jews and Arabs are pretty closely related as far as race.

The presicent of South Africa a bit more than 100 years ago believed the world was flat. It seems they have not come a long way since then.

[Kal]

What ruadh says is true: There are other definitions of the term 'black'. In Eastern Europe the Roma are classed as black, for example (as they once were in Western Europe).

Also, a quick look at Dictionary.com gave me these definitions:a. Of or belonging to a racial group having brown to black skin, especially one of African origin: the Black population of South Africa.

b. Of or belonging to an American ethnic group descended from African peoples having dark skin; African-American. Bolding mine. See, especially, but not always.

If you accept that some people (even intelligent, cultured people) do not use the term in the same way that we normally do, but to mean any dark-skinned ethnic group, then you'll understand how they see Roma, Indians, Pakistanis, Arabs etc, as being 'black'.

[lucwarm]

Iraq is black.

It must be true, it rhymes.

For some reason after reading this, I can't stop hearing AC/DC in my head singing "Iraq is Black" to the tune of "Back in Black."

As far as the OP goes, let's face reality: Letting Iraq have nukes is a Bad Idea. In fact, if I were the leader of any Arab or Muslim country bordering Iraq, I'd probably be more comfortable with the idea of Israel having nukes than Iraq.

[jjimm]

sailor, I have met Indian and Pakistani people in the UK who refer to themselves as "black". IIRC it's derived from a racist appelation from the days of the British Empire, and meant non-white-non-oriental (who were of course "yellow" and "inscrutable"). However, I think Mandela should have thought before he spoke.

[sailor]

>> sailor, I have met Indian and Pakistani people in the UK who refer to themselves as "black".

And this is realted to Iraqi people how? Indians and Pakistanis have much darker skin than Iraquis. Iraqis cannot be considered "black" by any stretch of the imagination. Show me some evidence that in South Africa Iraqis are considered "black". Saying "it could be" does not mean that it is.

I still think it was a very stupid thing to say. he was trying to inject race into the issue when it is clearly not a racial issue. And he did it very badly. I guess I should add "thank goodness".

[TwistofFate]

and saying "it couldn't" does not equal "it dosen't".

alot of C18 and fascist scum in Europe refer to Arabs as "sand niggers" and definitely regard ethnic groups all as "black" to them. Simply because they work off the maxim "If it ain't white, it ain't right".

[jjimm]

Originally posted by sailor
I still think it was a very stupid thing to say. he was trying to inject race into the issue when it is clearly not a racial issue.Oh, I agree. I'm just trying to suggest there might (just might) be cultural reasons for the word he chose (not the sentiment).

A parallel: remember GWB innocently referring to people from Pakistan as "Pakis"? To a domestic audience it was fine, but to Europeans it looked like racism. Simple cultural misunderstanding.

[sailor]

TwistofFate, I am not sure of your point but comparing mandela with "alot of C18 and fascist scum in Europe" who "refer to Arabs as 'sand niggers'" does not make Mandela look any better.

In my book it was a very ignorant and stupid thing to say and the reason he said it is inexcusable.

[pldennison]

I wonder how the displaced Ethiopian Jews living in Israel feel about being called "white?"

[TwistofFate]

sailor, I agree that it was a stupid thing to say.

I was just using an examplae that some groups will only see white as white, and everyone else as black.