Do Any Animals Commit Suicide?

[ThufferinThuccotash]

I don't mean that tripe about lemmings either; I talking I'm-so-sad-I-can't-eat-my-carrion depression that ends with a little furry head on a railroad track. Or is suicide unique to the human species, demonstrating the superiority of a large cranium?

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TT

"It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
--James Thurber

[Whammo]

humans think and overantalize too much, hence, suicide. my WAG.

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I am sofa king, we todded.

[Whammo]

and if you trust my spelling.. ants are VERY unstable.

[upstatic]

Humans are the only animals stupid enough to take their own lives. I think it should be illegal to kill yourself(to protect children). But if you want to cut your throat, go to Japan, Canada, or 50 miles off the coast of Florida, cut your leg, and jump in the water. The sharks will do the rest.

any comments on this: upstatic@hotmail.com

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R.J.D.

[Johnny Angel]

I don't doubt many animals sacrifice themselves. Actually killing themselves out of depression, though, probably requires a certain higher level of cognition.

But I really shouldn't get that controversy started.

[Qwisp]

Ever heard of a dog or cat who gets so depressed after its' owner passes away that it refuses to eat and dies shortly afterwards?

[Johnny Angel]

I don't know if that would count as suicide in the first degree. Probably more like negligent suicide.

[JamesCarroll]

Actually I heard that about dogs, but that cats would eat their owner if they had to.

[ubermensch]

this from the current issue of bizarre mag, taken without permission...

"lovesick bird's swansong
this unfortunate swan is believed to have committed suicide after his partner was electrocuted in front of him. ake and inger sandberg, of the lake side town of sangis in northern sweden, discovered the bird in the early hours of 30 october 1999. the previous night, there had been a thunderstorm which had cut out their electricity for about a minute. at the time, ake and his neighbours heard a swan crying out. the next day it became apparent why. out on the lake, a dead swan lay on the ice, having been electrocuted by the malfunctioning power cable. her partner hung from the branches of a birch tree outside the sandberg home..."
all spelling errors mine

a picture is alongside. a dead swan on the lake, and a swan hanging by its neck from a tree, wedged between 2 branches. i'd scan em, but won't.

[neuro-trash grrrl]

Just a note to those who aren't aware of this fact:

Lemmings don't commit suicide. This was just something Disney made up for a nature documentary a long time ago. The lemmings they showed hurtling off cliffs were thrown! The image stuck in the popular consciousness, and now is regarded as gospel in many circles. And that, my friends, is what Cecil is for.

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An infinite number of rednecks in an infinite number of pickup trucks shooting an infinite number of shotguns at an infinite number of road signs will eventually produce all the world's great works of literature in Braille.

[Doug Bowe]

After the brood is hatched Mother Black-Widow spiders sacrifice themselves to their kids as a final meal.
And I bet you thought only the male made the sacrifice for a little sex.

[Jophiel]

I remember reading before of scorpions who were put into an unescapable situation such as a ring of fire and responded by stabbing themselves repeatedly in the joint 'twixt their head and body. Whether this was an act of suicide or just some bizarre nerve impulses firing leading to spasms is for you to decide.

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"I guess one person can make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

[NanoByte]

I think my computer has gotten extremely depressed by all this and is asking me for assistance in its suicide.

. .___
. |x x|
. |_^_|
,--'U'--,
'-------'
. R.I.P.

Ray (Does it also work the other way around. . .only more slowly?)

[HeyHomie]

I'm wondering if those whales who beach themselves might be considered instances of animal suicide?

[Jinx]

Originally posted by neuro-trash grrrl:
Lemmings don't commit suicide. This was just something Disney made up for a nature documentary a long time ago.

I have heard this, but fail to comprehend. Why in the wonderful world of Walt's would he and his merry men be bothered with chasing or tossing stupid lemmings off a cliff? I fail to see any logic in this at all, capt'n! Also, out of all the crazy things to be remembered from ALL the nature shows done by Disney, why would this have stuck in people's minds so tenciously to the point where it has become a cliche? Do we humans kinda identify with this image? :confused:

Isn't it just possible there could be some truth about the behavior of lemmings? We need a lemmings expert! (Maybe the parallel between people following like sheep is just a myth, too? Maybe sheep do not follow blindly afterall?)

Maybe someone can enlighten me further.



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"They're coming to take me away ha-ha, ho-ho, hee-hee, to the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time... :)" - Napoleon IV

[Beadalin]

This is similar to the example of a dog refusing to eat after its owner died, but a while ago I watched a documentary on gorillas (God bless the Discovery channel!). An elderly female had a son, and she died of a heart attack when he was three years old.

The son stayed next to her body, refusing to eat or drink. The rest of the troupe tried to coax him away, and brought him food, but he ignored them all, and finally the rest moved on. He died a few days later. I think that's pretty close to suicide, even if of a kinda passive variety. Pretty sad.

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"It says, I choo-choo-choose you. And it's got a picture of a train."
-- Ralph Wiggum

[Thing 1]

I have seen reports of monkeys in captivity injuring themselves. Apparently some will get bored/depressed and bite themselves. These wounds can result in death if appropriate treatment is not provided. Not really what I would call suicide, but I would consider it a self inflicted injury resulting from psychological distress.

"Maybe the parallel between people following like sheep is just a myth, too? Maybe sheep do not follow blindly afterall?)"

I got my BS in animal science. I have had occasion to see the workings of a sheep farm up close. (no wise cracks) It always looked to me like they would follow blindly once one or two would start moving in a particular direction.
This made it easy for the shepherd to get the herd where she wanted it. Even if it was the slaughter house.

John

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Then he got up on top
With a tip of his hat.
"I call this game FUN-IN- A-BOX"
Said the cat.

-The Cat in the Hat

[BoBettie]

Originally posted by upstatic:
Humans are the only animals stupid enough to take their own lives. I think it should be illegal to kill yourself (to protect children).


I agree. We should put the casket right in the courtroom and try them like the crimminals they are. But what would the punishment be? Life?

Zette


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"If I had to live your life, I'd be begging to have someone pop out both my eyes. Just in case I came across a mirror." - android209 (in the Pit)
Zettecity (http://www.angelfire.com/ny3/zettecity/index.html)
Voted "Most Empathetic"- can you believe that?

[Diceman]

Ever heard of a dog or cat who gets so depressed after its' owner passes away that it refuses to eat and dies shortly afterwards?
Actually I heard that about dogs, but that cats would eat their owner if they had to.
Actually, there are several documented instances of dogs eating their owner's corpses. I read one particularly nasty account where a police broke into the home of an old man who hadn't been seen for several days. The guy probably died of a heart attack. By the time he was found, his dog had eaten most of the man's head. Bits of bone and hair were found all over the house. So I wouldn't count on Fido pining away over your body.

As for the lemming suicide thing, Disney's side of the story was that they hired this Canadian guy to shoot the documentary for them, and he scammed them. Apparently, he paid some Inuit children to round up a bunch of lemmings for him. He then stuck them on a turntable of some kind, and let centrifugal force fling the lemmings off. The camera was attached to the turntabe, so you donn't notice the rotation in the film. A few more were lemmings thrown around by hand for good measure. If you want to know more about this guy, I'm sure he's on the ASPCA's Ten Most Wanted List :D.

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--It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats.

[WIGGUM]

The whole Disney, Lemmings rumor is true. Check this out:

http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.htm

[Arnold Winkelried]

A recent article in Science News (http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc99/11_13_99/index.htm) discussed sexual cannibalism. In the case of the australian redback spider, the male actually flips himself over to position himself in front of the female's mouth, and the female eats the male during copulation. The conjecture from the biologists was that if the female is distracted by eating the male, copulation will last longer and the male will have a better chance to fertilize the female. Also, the male spends a lot of energy to find a female and probably wouldn't make it to another web anyway, so why not try to make the most of this one encounter?

So that would be a clear case of suicide.

[Sam Stone]

Do they know yet why whales beach themselves? Some have suggested that it's a form of suicide.

I seem to recall something about Elephants and suicide, but I can't remember.

[ignatiusjreilly]

Actually, suicide IS against the law. I don't know exactly why, but I'm sure there are some minor legal nuances that would require it to be so.

To committ suicide is to willingly take end one's own existence. To do this, one must be self-aware. That is, you have to know that you actually have a life in order to do something to end it for the express purpose of ending it. I doubt that dogs and cats who don't eat are deliberately doing so because they want to end their lives - they don't have the intellectual capacity to make such a rational thought. Therefore, animals that run themselves off of cliffs or offer themselves up for cannibalism, etc, are not really committing suicide - they're following some ingrained instinct for the purpose of following that instinct, NOT for the purpose of ending their lives. They don't have a choice in the matter in other words.

[mouthbreather]

Originally posted by upstatic:
I think it should be illegal to kill yourself(to protect children).

This has got to be the stupidest thing I have heard in weeks.

Please tell me you're kidding.

[BobT]

I would imagine that suicide is against the law so that it is easier for the state to impose penalties against the estates of people who commit suicide, i.e. denying insurance benefits.

It could also be a holdover for from medieval times.

[JoeyBlades]

True story:

Once, many years ago when I had a real job (as a welder) me and a buddy were working inside this shop when a giant ground hornet flew in. This is one of those three inch long buggers that are really intimidating. Anyway, it's making us nervous so my buddy graps a can of roach spray. I said, "Idiot, that's just going to piss him off!" But my buddy started spraying. I guess the hornet was confused, at first, then too wet with bug spray after a few seconds to do anything. So it fell to the window sill, flapping it's wings and writhing in obvious pain. It was pretty clear that this big bug was in some serious hurt. After about a minute, it flipped over on it's back, stopped it's wings and very deliberately stuck it's stinger into it's head (it went in beside the eye). After about a second, all motion stopped and the thorax relaxed a bit so that the stinger slipped out. A drop of clear fluid was clinging to the stinger... the hornet was dead.

Also, I've made scorpions sting themselves to death before. Taunt them with the tip of a pencil by tapping them on the back, eventually they get themselves between the segments...

Hey, if you'd ever been stung by one, you wouldn't think that was cruel!!!

[Ike Witt]

Originally posted by BobT:
I would imagine that suicide is against the law so that it is easier for the state to impose penalties against the estates of people who commit suicide, i.e. denying insurance benefits.

It could also be a holdover for from medieval times.

Since when does the state run the insurance industry? I think a more logical answer is that the state doesn't want to lose a revenue stream (ie. taxpayer). But really, is somebody who is thinking of suicide going to change their mind because it is illegal?

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"He love people, all of them, washed and unwashed; he loves his wretched pack of sponging relatives. He shoots people, arrests people, but he doesn't like it."

[WallyM7]

Actually, suicide IS against the law. I don't know exactly why, but I'm sure there are some minor legal nuances that would require it to be so.

Suicide is decidedly NOT against the law, for reasons that are obvious even to me.

Attempted suicide, of course, is another matter.

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Voted as: The poster you'd most like to meet.

I demand a recount.

[BoBettie]

Originally posted by WallyM7:
Attempted suicide, of course, is another matter.


Wally,
My point exactly. Good catch!



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"If I had to live your life, I'd be begging to have someone pop out both my eyes. Just in case I came across a mirror." - android209 (in the Pit)
Zettecity (http://www.angelfire.com/ny3/zettecity/index.html)
Voted "Most Empathetic"- can you believe that?

[mangeorge]

Originally posted by JamesCarroll:
Actually I heard that about dogs, but that cats would eat their owner if they had to.

I told you cats are smarter than dogs!
Peace,
mangeorge

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I only know two things;
I know what I need to know
And
I know what I want to know
Mangeorge, 2000

[WallyM7]

Zette wrote:

I agree. We should put the casket right in the courtroom and try them like the crimminals they are. But what would the punishment be? Life?

Damn! How did I miss that the first time?
Wish I wrote it. Very clever, Zette. :)

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Voted as: The poster you'd most like to meet.

I demand a recount.

[MrKnowItAll]

Don't know if this counts...

From the Guiness Book of World Records:
[quote}The longest fangs of any snake are those of the Gaboon viper (Bitis gabonica), of tropical Africa. In a 6-ft-long speimen, the fangs measured 1.96 in. A Gaboon viper bit itself to death on Feb 12, 1963 in the Philadelphia Zoological Gardens. Keepers found the dead snake with its fangs deeply embedded in its own back.[quote]Of course the question this brings up is:

You've got to be kidding. Bitis gabonica?

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Now with 1000 posts of pure wisdom!
(or something)

[sailor]

It seems like this thread has run its course but here's my $0.02.

Many animals will do things that lead directly to their death even though the motive is not suicide. Salmon waste all their energies to swim up a river to procreate even though this leads to their deaths.

Many animals, including many birds, will refuse to live in captivity and will cause themselves to die. Have you ever seen a sparrow in a small cage? Not only will it not eat but it will injure itself hurling itself against the bars. Of course this behavior can be analized differently:

- the bird is deliberately trying to kill itself rather than live imprisoned
- the bird is simply distressed and acting irrationally
- the bird is just to stupid to realize the consequences.

Certain animals (e.g. elephants) do have very strong emotions and emotional bonds and can be very distressed by losing a family member. This can lead to behavior which will cost them their life (staying with the dead body rather than carrying on with their life) even if that is not the primary intent.

[ASPA]

Seems reasonable to presume that animals, not just including humans, committ suicide and mortal self-sacrifice; to presume so is at least as reasonable as to presume not. Agreed? My immediate imaginations turn to pigeons and bees. ...then dogs and cats. Cats will stop eating. Dogs will pick a death fight. pigeons will walk in front of a car. Bees will contradict the queen.

[ASPA]

Seems reasonable to presume that animals, not just including humans, committ suicide and mortal self-sacrifice; to presume so is at least as reasonable as to presume not. Agreed? My immediate imaginations turn to pigeons and bees. ...then dogs and cats. Cats will stop eating. Dogs will pick a death fight. pigeons will walk in front of a car. Bees will contradict the queen.

[Nickrz]

Suicide only works when you're bluffing. No other animal than man can possibly know this.

[Koxinga]

Originally posted by JamesCarroll:
Actually I heard that about dogs, but that cats would eat their owner if they had to.


"Regarding Little Red Riding Hood: The Big Bad Wolf couldn't be all bad, if he would eat your grandmother. Not even your Grandpa would do that."--George Carlin

DHR

[coosa]

I think you would need for more precisely define what you mean by 'suicide'. People who deliberately choose to end their lives make a conscious decision to do so with full knowledge of the result - that is, death. I don't believe that animals have the ability to make that sort of conscious decision.

However, I've seen extremely ill or severely injured animals who were eating and drinking normally at first suddenly refuse food and water. I've also seen elderly animals 'pine away' after losing their long-time home or owner. It's impossible to know if there is an underlying, undiagnosed physical reason for this, but it APPEARS that these animals have lost their 'will to live' - that is, they no longer feel motivated to continue those conscious actions (as opposed to involuntary actions, such as breathing) that will maintain life.

However, I don't think this is a conscious decision on the animal's part. If you are going to choose to die, why suffer more than necessary by choosing starvation or dying of thirst? I think that if animals were capable of consciously deciding to end their lives, they would pick a quick and sure method such as eating poison or throwing themselves in front of a car.

Animals certainly can become depressed and go into a decline and die. At the veterinary clinic where I work, we often treat sick animals whose physical condition has improved but that still refuse to eat or drink until they are visited by their owners, after which they will perk up and begin improving rapidly.



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Some days you're the dog, some days you're the hydrant.

[ASPA]

Originally posted by Nickrz:
Suicide only works when you're bluffing. No other animal than man can possibly know this. So, at just what point would you say the suicide/bluff has "worked."
Wouldn't the most convincing or enduring bbluff be one that extends from the grave?

[ASPA]

Originally posted by Nickrz:
Suicide only works when you're bluffing. No other animal than man can possibly know this. So, at just what point would you say the suicide/bluff has "worked."
Wouldn't the most convincing or enduring bbluff be one that extends from the grave?

[Koxinga]

Originally posted by ASPA:
Originally posted by Nickrz:
Suicide only works when you're bluffing. No other animal than man can possibly know this. So, at just what point would you say the suicide/bluff has "worked."
Wouldn't the most convincing or enduring bbluff be one that extends from the grave?

I dunno, but I'm still waiting for Andy Kaufmann to make a surprise re-appearance on David Letterman.

DHR

[spooje]

Maybe it was my imagination, but I saw a cat run under the wheels of a moving car. It looked to me like the cat was aimimg for the wheels and changed course when the car tried to swerve to avoid hitting it.

[ASPA]

Originally posted by coosa:
I don't believe that animals have the ability to make [the] conscious decision to committ suicide.
However ... it APPEARS that these animals [who decline into fatal depression, and/or stop eating, drinking and such] have lost their 'will to live' - that is, they no longer feel motivated to continue those conscious actions (as opposed to involuntary actions, such as breathing) that will maintain life. ... I think that if animals were capable of consciously deciding to end their lives, they would pick a quick and sure method such as eating poison or throwing themselves in front of a car.
At the veterinary clinic where I work, we often treat sick animals whose physical condition has improved but that still refuse to eat or drink until they are visited by their owners, after which they will perk up and begin improving rapidly.
Gee, your own argument helps support serious consideration that other animals may at times consciously decide to end their lives and calculate their own expeditions or executions of suicide. Many people find it most difficult to believe that other animals can do anything without people dictating or understanding the intelligent details of it. Let's remember that the first civilizations on the planet were made millions of years before human civilizations----by ants! Maybe the stressful workweek and suicides were also first accomplished by ants. With so much sense going in that direction, why not posit it, instead of bypassing it!

[ASPA]

Originally posted by ASPA:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by coosa:
...they would pick a quick and sure method such as eating poison or throwing themselves in front of a car.

And whop say they don't. May there be at least a few drivers (out of the many) who hit animals on the road who HONESTLY claim that the animal threw itself in front of the traffic. Also, just last year my neighbor's cat curled up under a tree and "died." Was the fatality involuntary depression or involuntary poisoning, or may it just as probably have been voluntary poisoning to end depression. One concl;usion seems no more probable than the other. It depends largely on whether we accept that human beings are not the only one's who may act with 'conscious will.' And not all people think HUMANS do that, either.

[Ponygirl]

Quote:
Do they know yet why whales beach themselves? Some have suggested that it's a form of suicide.

I think I remember reading somewhere that the reason whales beach themselves is because they can't stand the sound of human-made underwater equipment (i.e. military submarines' sonar, underwater explosions from bomb testing, that kind of thing). Because whales have much greater ranges in their ability to produce and hear sounds, it does seem plausible that what might be tolerable to a human in a submarine might drive a whale within hearing distance insane, or even cause enough pain that they try to get out of the water to escape the sound (because we can't hear the higher pitches of the noise, like with dog whistles). And, additionally, it makes for an interesting hypothesis as to why even after towing a beached whale out into the ocean, they often swim right back and beach themselves all over again...if the sound was repellent enough to make them do it in the first place, it's easy to see why they might do it again.

[MyFootsZZZ]

Originally posted by JamesCarroll
Actually I heard that about dogs, but that cats would eat their owner if they had to.

Dogs and cats do that...

and not all of them do

[urban1]

Originally posted by upstatic
Humans are the only animals stupid enough to take their own lives. I think it should be illegal to kill yourself(to protect children). But if you want to cut your throat, go to Japan, Canada, or 50 miles off the coast of Florida, cut your leg, and jump in the water. The sharks will do the rest.

any comments on this: upstatic@hotmail.com

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R.J.D.

Sorry, I have to ask. Just what would the penalty be if someone DID kill themselves?

:)

[Mr. Duality]

used to be execution by hanging, in one of the states in New England. I can't recall which state it was, at the moment.

[evilhanz]

I have heard stories of whales in captivity who have exercised themselves into exhaustion and sunk to the bottom of the holding tank in an apparently deliberate suicide attempt. I have no idea if these stories are true, but it seems suspciciously like animal rights propaganda, so take it FWIW.