His4Ever, A Word With You Please

[Siege]

His4Ever, I was going to do this privately by e-mail, but since that option's not open to me, I'm afraid I'll have to do it here. Concerning your response to this thread on Christ's adolescence (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=135648) , not only am I a friend of agentfroot, I was also her Sunday School teacher and continue to concerned with her spiritual welfare. I have been to church with her and continue to be chalicist at the same church her family goes to. I can assure you her mind has not been "warped by the evil one." It has, however, been warped by holier-than-thou Christians. I'm afraid I find your attitude and your post offensive. Agentfroot asked a question, possibly inspired by some of the things I mentioned about Christ's humanity, such as needing to go to the bathroom at inconvenient times. To this Christian, it's a fair question and one I've wondered about myself. To me, denying Christ's humanity is closer to blasphemy.

I have read many posts by you on a variety of religion-related subjects. In all of the posts I've read, I've never seen you exhibit a trace of compassion or love, only condemnation of those who disagree with you. You have had the temerity to cite Christ speaking about "Love the Lord Thy God with all thy heart", etc. but skip what He said was the second commandment, "Love Thy neighbor as thyself." I've read a lot of judgement from you, but little of love.

With regard to your post being "erased", as has been pointed out, because of the Board's recent outage, not only posts but entire threads were erased, including one asking for birthday wishes for a poster's son, and one I started asking for friendship on a day when I felt like a failure. Your compassion in that thread was noted.

I've been hanging around this board for a couple of years now. I've seen threads which I know I don't want to look at; I've seen threads asking for congratulations for things which I think are wrong. My response to them is simple. I don't open them, or, if I do, I don't respond to them. For a facetious example, I seem to recall a thread out in MPSIMS a while back that was titled something to the effect of "For Women Only. Men Keep Out." Several of the gentlemen of the SDMB opened it anyway only to find out it was a very graphic thread about menstruation.

You cited Phillipians, "At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow." Your attitude comes across as "and if it doesn't, I'll be standing by with a baseball bat to make sure it does." As agentfroot's spiritual advisor and friend, I would like an apology, because, you see, if she has been "warped by the evil one" then either I had a hand in it or I failed to prevent it.

CJ

[SPOOFE]

To be fair to H4E, she was obviously under the influence of evil, herself. Look at the font color she used: Purple. As me and my MaDa companions have discovered, "Them's the colors of evil!" (to quote Jefferson Davis).

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

As agentfroot's spiritual advisor and friend, I would like an apology,

It is my prediction you won't get it.

His4Ever is a grunt, with a heart fulla hate, & a mouth fulla pious words. An old song, but he still dances to the tune.

People like him make me frantic with rage. Sadly, they also sometimes alienate me so badly, I miss meeting nice people like you, cjhoworth . :)

[Monty]

cj: If you're Catholic, you're not "really Christian" per H4E.

Bosda: IIRC, H4E's a woman.

H4E: Still at it, huh?

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Originally posted by Monty

Bosda: IIRC, H4E's a woman.



Grunts is Grunts.

Just like "pigs is pigs" in that O. Henry story. But not cute or funny.

[gobear]

H4E is the kind of friggin' credulous, ain't-never-read-a-book-'sides-the-Bible moron who helps perpetuate the stereotype of Christians as intolerant assholes. Her breathtaking ignorance about, well, EVERYTHING, makes dealing with her a trial.

[kambuckta]

Don't worry folks: I think H4E's confidence about getting into heaven is a bit misplaced.

Can you imagine St. Pete, JC's bouncer, letting such a boring, humourless twerp through the pearly gates?

Hey, if H4E is indicative of the quality of the clientele in heaven, I'm more than happy to head south.

And for H4E, for goodness sakes, lighten up woman! I believe that questions about Jesus' puberty are entirely legitimate, and further, our ability to laugh at the notion of JC with zits and wet dreams is what makes us so delightfully human. It's not blasphemy. And I feel that He would be chortling right along with us.

[Drastic]

"Love Thy neighbor as thyself."

Maybe she is.

Pretty horrifying, either way.

[Guinastasia]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
To be fair to H4E, she was obviously under the influence of evil, herself. Look at the font color she used: Purple. As me and my MaDa companions have discovered, "Them's the colors of evil!" (to quote Jefferson Davis).

The hell it is! Purple is a liturgical color, actually-used during the Lenten time. HA!!!!

[SPOOFE]

Yes, Guin, but Purple is also the color of an evil cloak possessed by a demonic entity named Steve.

[Monty]

kambucta: You just made me remember the film, "Last Temptation of Christ." How much you feel like betting H4E wouldn't be caught dead even contemplating watching that one?

[rhetorical query: I don't bet.]

[agentfroot]

A) If Jesus was at His computer right now, reading the puberty thread, he'd probably be laughing and reminiscing.

B) I was simply pondering the idea of Jesus as a teenager, and yes, it was partially because of what Cjhoworth told me about Him being human. Funny how my humanoid "spiritual advisor" (as oppose to the SPIRITUAL spiritual advisor) is a completely different religion, isn't it?

C) Here's the deal: You respect my beliefs, I'll respect yours. One of my best friends is a true "bible thumper," and she at least has the decency to put down the Jesus stick in my presence. I don't care how much people talk about Jesus, as long as they don't criticize my beliefs or claim theirs are superior. I like open-minded Christians. I avoid evangelists. At all costs.

D) Purple isn't evil! PINK is evil! It's the evillest color out there! Just look at Barbie!

[lynn73]

Originally posted by cjhoworth


You cited Phillipians, "At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow." Your attitude comes across as "and if it doesn't, I'll be standing by with a baseball bat to make sure it does." As agentfroot's spiritual advisor and friend, I would like an apology, because, you see, if she has been "warped by the evil one" then either I had a hand in it or I failed to prevent it.

CJ [/B]

I will apologize because you desire it. My attitudes are not what you think they are. I found the things they were saying very disturbing and so I commented on them. If that's a no no or you're angry then I apologize. I'm not "holier than thou" or think I'm better than you. No one here has understood my motives or feelings yet. They're NOT what you seem to think they are. I have no plans to take a baseball bat to anyone, that is a ludicrous comment. I simply quoted what the Scripture says will happen one day. If you don't believe it, that's your privilege. I resent being called the names I've been called and being considered a hateful unloving person. It's not true. Just because I can't say what you want me to or agree with everyone DOESN'T make me a hateful person. There seems to be some sort of "clique" on this board and if a person disagrees with them, everybody piles on.

[Monty]

H4E: Concerning what we think are your attitudes--I suppose you don't recall what Jesus, the Christ, said folk are judged by? IIRC, it's by what comes out of their mouths. Ponder that.

[lynn73]

What's IIRC mean?

[Monty]

p.s. I'm not implying that I'm juding you as hellbound or heavenbound; just explaining where I get the iimpression you know naught about theology, or even JC for that matter.

[Guinastasia]

If I Recall Correctly.

[gobear]

If you don't believe it, that's your privilege. I resent being called the names I've been called and being considered a hateful unloving person.

If you had poisted, "Talking about Jesus in such an irreverent way seems blasphemous to me," this thread would not even exist. When you tell another poster "you have been warped by the evil one," people tend to get the impression that you're hateful and closeminded.

Hint: It's possible to state your beliefs clearly, yet not be considered hateful. Try including YMMV (your mileage may vary), "Just my opinion," here's what I think", and so on. When you post, H4E, you give the impression that the Metatron has gone on vacation and left you as the interim Voice of God. If you stop acting like your ideas and your views are the unquestioned commandments from on high, and start acting more like just a person who acknowledges that her views on Scripture are just hers, and other people may view the same Scriptures and come away with entirely different ideas, then you might find that you'll start getting a different reception.

[d_redguy]

Darn.

You know, I was thinking of a way to break it to H4E gentle. I want to explain to her that she uses words like a baseball bat, not that she is gonna hit anyone with a baseball bat. It's called a metaphor.

I have been watching the threads for a while now. I lurk alot.

As a Christian and a Catholic (oh, wait that doesn't count...) I am offended. I apologize on her behalf, because her apologies seem less than sincere.

People who I have read for a long time, and delighted in their wit and cool under fire have been transformed into knee-jerk reactionaries lately. I can understand why. It doesn't ever stop, does it?

His4Ever , look at it from a marketing perspective. Why would the likes of us, as sinners, want anything to do with the God of your understanding? He apparently can't stand us? I don't stay in the company of those who cannot stand me. Why would I want to be reminded that I am evil all of the time, especially when I perceive myself as a Good Person (TM)? What is the draw? Threats of fire and brimstone? How is that worse than the persecution that you hurl? There are some in here that would probably prefer an existence in Dante's Inferno to what they deal with on a day-to-day basis from people who hate and fear them due to a lack of understanding.

<sigh>

[Dr. Lao]

His4ever, there is a difference between saying, "I think you are wrong, and here's why," and "your minds are warped by the dark one." And there is a difference between disagreeing with someone and calling them evil. Learn them.

[robertliguori]

Pop quiz: H4E, assuming that I have a heart attack sitting at this computer (a possibly that becomes less likely with each passing day), given that I have not accepted Jesus Christ as my savior, am I going to hell?
If God would rather damn me rather than give me some sign that He exists, he's either a) a bastard, or b) not there to save or damn me. Advocationg the presence of such a being is not hateful, IMHO. Just a opening for cognative dissonance a mile wide.

[Miller]

I'm not "holier than thou" or think I'm better than you.

Liar.

Get thee behind me, His4Ever.

[D.E.S.K.Top668]

His4Ever-I lurk a lot more then I post and I 've read quite a bit from you. The reason I, at least, think that you're a self-righteous, holier then thou, intolerant jerk is because THAT'S HOW YOU COME ACROSS IN YOUR POSTS!! I know nothing about you except from your posts and from them you come across as all of the above. It's not just what you say, it's how you say it. The bible might be god's word, but I have yet to see a copy with footnotes explaining the meaning of his words, so your interpertation is just as much guess work as mine is. The difference being that I, and most christians I know, are willing to admit that we're just making our best guess and hoping we're right.
Oh, your apology came across as sincere as a polititions handshake, IMHO.

[gobear]

But that would require H4E to entertain a hypothetical situation..might as well ask sheep to fly.

[Guinastasia]

That's why I like Catholicism-no Sola Scripture!!

[d_redguy]

Guin,
The fight against ignorance is won one Doper at a time. Thanks! (http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/link.asp?ref=18797)

Amazing. I didn't know a word, I pulled up google, I copy and pasted the word, and stuff comes out! Eureka!!;):D

This is from the article:
But if
Scripture is misused, apart from the Church which Christ founded to
teach us, Scripture becomes "hard to understand, so that the ignorant
and unstable distort it to their own destruction" (2nd Peter 3:16).

Bingo.

[iampunha]

H4e:

Just in case you missed it the first eighteen thousand times:

If you are failing in your mission to come across as X to a group of people, and they all see you as being Y, then you need to at least consider changing what you're doing.

IOW (in other words): you come off to a goodly number on this board as being holier-than-thou and of the opinion that yours is the only valid set of religious beliefs (and if you really need a cite for that, go through your old posts). Furthermore you are almost wholly unable to defend them. As has been pointed out by folks of many religious faiths and backgrounds, yer not doin' the job He sent you to do.

And as for this ... "I found the things they were saying very disturbing and so I commented on them." Way to understate things. People were joking, some posted serious answers to the joking stuff, and then you come along with that "warped by the evil one" bullshit.

Get. a. grip.

[Lissla Lissar]

Umph. His4Ever, from your posts, you kind of remind me of the posters at another board I used to frequent, which was very Protestant, and rather anti-Catholic. Some of the members also seemed to be anti-education, as well.

There ended up being vicious internal flame wars there, on the basis of hot-temperedness and ignorance. Very few posters seemed to recognise the useful (and to my mind, very Christian) Principle of Charity in debate, which is assuming that your debating partner means the best thing they could have meant, given their words.

Neither did most of them use any of the general rules for arguing, such as "don't say, 'you never..', or toss insults, or shout so loudly that one is unable to here the other person's point.

This board is not tacitly Christian, it is a gathering place for people of all sorts of different views. It is very wise to learn to phrase your beliefs in such a way as to not come off unloving, and judgemental. My personal favorite route for evangelism is based on Paul's in Athens. Start from where the other people are, and argue (or discuss) from their preconceptions, not your own.

There are lots of amazing Christians here- and lots of absolutely amazing people of all other persuasions, as well. I suggest you do a bunch of lurking, and observe the way they all interact.

Also, I suggest you read some of the Christian classics, in order to educate yourself about the history of the faith. It is dangerous, sinful, and unBiblical to hate one's brothers and sisters in the faith- and very bad to be ignorant concerning one's sprirtual mothers and fathers, as well. Because I'm monomanical, I suggest Orthodoxy, by G.K. Chesterton, The Rule Of St. Benedict, and The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis[/i]. I also ask you to consider why God let an institution which many anti-Catholics claim is the Antichrist carry Christianity for 1400 years.

May God bless you, and I apologise to anyone I might have inadvertantly offended.

[lel]

H4e, people might insult Jesus, in your opinion. That will happen. If you find it insulting, don't read it. People are just expressing their own opinions. Personally, I wonder about Jesus' adolescence myself.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Originally posted by cjhoworth
... not only am I a friend of agentfroot, ... I can assure you her mind has not been "warped by the evil one." It has, however, been warped by holier-than-thou Christians.
Oh dear, can her mind be straightened out again? :D

Originally posted by cjhoworth
You cited Phillipians, "At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow."

To His4ever. You quoted a scripture that is very dear to me. reminds me of the much older scripture

Isaiah 45:22-24
Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him shall be put to shame."

If everyone will bow their knee, and swear allegiance at the name of Jesus does that not fufill the promise of John 3:16 for each and every person?

[Siege]

His4Ever, you said the mind of a very dear friend of mine of "seems to have been warped by the evil one," and that the conversation which resulted from a thread she started is "disgusting and pretty close to blasphemy." As someone who has dedicated herself and her life to Christ, those are fighting words. That is what I'm objecting to. I told you how your attitude comes across, and others have backed me up on that, but you don't seem to understand it. If you've been called hateful and unloving, it's because that [i]is[/is] the way you seem. If you don't like it, you have been given the ability to change it. For openers, go into MPSIMS and, when you see someone posting about hard times, say something nice without citing scripture.

I spend a lot of my time hanging out with Wiccans, Pagans, and other non-Christians. I am genuinely sorry to tell you this, but one reason some of these people have turned away from Christianity is because they have met people who come across the same way you do. These are people who keep telling them how wrong they are to question, to think, to wonder, or to be different. As a result, they turn away because there is no place for them. Some us can no more help questioning things than others of us can help having blue eyes. To be told that asking what to me is a perfectly natural question is "close to blasphemy" drives us away from the very salvation you tell us we must have.

I prayed for both of us after I posted last night, long and hard. I prayed to a Christ who became fully human so that he could know the limitations of the human body and of human will. I also re-read John 3:16, but I then carried on to John 3:17, "It was not to judge the world that God sent his Son into the world, but that through Him the world might be saved." Please think about that next time you're calling someone blasphemous, an abomination or warped by the evil one. Part of my prayer, by the way, was that I might come to better understand you.

I can see a bit of where you're coming from, but you came across as trying to hurt my friends. I've been standing up for my friends since kindergarten, and changing that habit will be difficult, assuming I ever have the desire to change it. I especially don't like to see them hurt for something I've encouraged. If you truly believe my mind has been warped by the evil one, tell me, and I'll agree we appear to be on opposite sides. You can do so by e-mail, if you like. If not, then please, think of your words, think of your attitudes before you post, think of the way you present the God we both serve.

Respectfully,
CJ

[Liberal]

I resent being called the names I've been called and being considered a hateful unloving person. It's not true."A tree is known by its fruit." — Jesus

[monica]

I don't agree with what His4Ever has been saying, as you can see in the thread in the link in the OP. However, in her defense, she was just stating an opinion. What I would like to point out is that in that thread, His4Ever was saying that our opinions were bad and that we are bad people. In this thread, we are saying that HER opinions are bad and that SHE is a bad person. Isn't that sinking down to her level?

[Dangerosa]

I spend a lot of my time hanging out with Wiccans, Pagans, and other non-Christians. I am genuinely sorry to tell you this, but one reason some of these people have turned away from Christianity is because they have met people who come across the same way you do. These are people who keep telling them how wrong they are to question, to think, to wonder, or to be different. As a result, they turn away because there is no place for them.


Ah, so true, so true. I wish many evangelicals would realize how many people they drive away with their narrow and harsh interpretations of God.

Not that I'm Christian, just that if they realized it, they might tone down the noise a little bit and replace it with a more pleasant sound.

[Liberal]

"You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." — Jesus

[ZombiesAteMyBrain]

Originally posted by Dangerosa


Ah, so true, so true. I wish many evangelicals would realize how many people they drive away with their narrow and harsh interpretations of God.

Not that I'm Christian, just that if they realized it, they might tone down the noise a little bit and replace it with a more pleasant sound.

I think what Christians like His4ever object to is people having FUN - if you're having a laugh, sin must be involved somewhere!!!

As a Buddhist - She'd probably say I was damned anyway - just as well I don't believe in hell;) ::smack:

[Guinastasia]

"And they'll know we are Christians by our love."

His4Ever-we don't see this of you.

That's what keeps me coming back to it-not the Bible, or the catechism, but seeing people I believe in, people I adore and admire, who are Christians. I say, I want to be like that.

That's how it works.

[Polycarp]

I resent being called the names I've been called and being considered a hateful unloving person. It's not true.

His4Ever, when I first came to this board, the reaction was, "Jeez, not another one of them Christians come to preach at us!" Some thought it, some overtly posted it. The guy who said in essence what I just quoted (albeit with better English than I did) became one of my closest friends, both here and IRL. (I won't say who for two reasons: He's no longer a member of this board nor a resident of this city; and his screen name would lead you to erroneous conclusions about his spiritual life. But longtime members will know just whom I'm speaking about.)

By doing my best to show Christ, or at least Christlike motives, in not only what I said but in how[/]b I said it and in expressing serious concern for people and their problems, I moved from "not another one of those Christian idiots" on a strongly anti-Christian board to a person who is fairly well liked on a board that understands what Christian teaching is, even if many choose not to follow it.

I don't want to seem prideful about this, but it's the job we were given. Not overt quoting of Scripture, except when that's the appropriate answer to the situation before you, not judging of who is and is not among the elect (as if either of us know!). But being a person who brings Christ to them. "By this shall all men know that you are My disciples -- that you love one another."

Which of your posts has expressly shown love and compassion towards the people here? Were you showing Christ's love to [b]agentfroot and the people having fun with the idea of Jesus as a teenager?* Were you showing Christ's love to gobear and Esprix and the rest of the gay people when you said that God thinks they're abominations? How about the sincere LDS members here who may have a bizarre theology but have taken Jesus as their Lord same as you and me, whose beliefs you insulted on the basis of Granny Somebody's "expose of the Mormon cult"? How about the sincere Catholics here, about whose beliefs you lied and when shown the evidence that your statements were lies (presumably out of ignorance) you failed to apologize but maintained that you were "witnessing to the Truth"? Stating the truth about what you believe and why is one thing; insulting people in the name of God is quite another, and something He never commanded -- in fact, He tells us to do precisely the opposite, even if attacked and insulted by others.

Dear, nobody hates you, there's no clique out to get you, but what we all dearly wish, Christian and non-Christian alike, is that you'd act like your Lord commanded.

It can't be that hard to understand.

[Forbin]

Disclaimer:
I am an unbeliever.
The following comments are to be understood as my response to this situation (the original thread, and the resultant pit thread here).
I am not defending my own religious views.
I do not share the views of His4Ever, particularly with regard to the comments she made regarding diabolical influence on the minds of other posters.


cjhoworth
I think you were wrong to start this thread.
As almost everyone on the boards knows, His4Ever believes in Christianity, and takes the bible literally. She is not alone. A lot of people in this world share her religious views.
A thread is blasphemous when it contains such chestnuts as these:

1)-"My Father wants to know how those breasts of yours are developing. He says I'm supposed to check them myself."

"Blessed So-and-So! My Father has chosen YOU to be the one to take my Virginity!"

"You don't have to cover up when I come into the baths. I'm the Son of God. I've seen it all before."

2)- You have truly divine breasts - allow me to lay my hands on them and bless them"

"Would you like me to bless anything else - I don't mind doing your whole body!!!!"

3)-Come to Jesus, Baby!
Hey baby, it's a sacrament!
Oh my Lord, here I come!
If you do IT with Jesus, IT ain't no sin.

4)-It is just WHOLLY HOLY, Praise the lord and await his SECOND Coming!!!!!!!

Comments of that type, and many others contained in the thread, are grossly offensive to people who share His4Ever's world view. For His4Ever, and many other Christians in the world, the person of Christ is sacrosanct.
Since you are fond of using metaphors, e.g. "baseball bats"; you should contemplate the metaphor of waving a red flag in front of a bull. The offensive material posted on that thread constitutes the red flag IMO.

FWIW, His4Ever did say:
" Your minds seem to have been warped by the evil one. "
I think she was referring to the offensive remarks, and not the OP, (note the use of the plural, minds) but I could be wrong.
In my opinion she does not owe you, or anyone else an apology.
I also feel that the "baseball bat" comment was unwarranted.

gobear
His4Ever did indicate her opinions were her own, and not empirical fact. She used the expression, "as far as I'm concerned".
You seem unconcerned when offensive comments are made regarding the person of Christ, but ask yourself how you would react to the (oft quoted) "gays are gonna have sex with children", remark or any other idiotic stereotype concerning homosexuality.
I feel sure that you would be (justifiably) offended. I think you ought to extend a little more courtesy toward His4Ever, and at least sympathize with why she might be offended by such comments.
I think you're a good addition to the boards, and I enjoy reading your posts. I don't always agree with you, but, hey, that's life. When I see the relationship that exists between you and posters like his4Ever, I'm reminded of the Indian Wars.
"no prisoners are taken".
In such wars all are savages, none are civilized.

His4Ever
You've gotten a pretty rough treatment on the boards. You have my sympathies. The question of Christ's adolescence is thought provoking, and good material for religious contemplation. I suggest reading Kazantzokos' book, "The Last Temptation of Christ" for some insight on that topic. Although it doesn't specifically deal with adolescence per se, it is nevertheless a book about the humanity of Christ, and conflicting feelings he might have experienced. Unlike what you may have heard, the book is not irreligious. In fact it affirms the holiness of Christ (at least for me).
Warning: it's dreadfully boring.



The continual negative comments directed toward His4Ever are getting tiresome to me. I think many of the people making them are capable of so much more. On the other hand, many are not.
Which is the greater shame, those bereft souls with shit for brains, or otherwise smart people who cannot resist the temptation to pick on an SDMB pariah.

[grendel72]

Forbin, surely you can see that H4E has gotten no more grief than she has dished out- far less, really.

I find it ironoc that someone who admitted that she would discriminate against homosexuals in housing has come to a private messageboard, attacked the participants, then claimed that she is a victim. I find it absolutely fucking disgusting that there are morons like you who buy into her lie that she is a victim.

She started this shit, she has lied about people. When her lies have been pointed out she cries that she's being attacked.

[Siege]

Forbin, she said "This whole conversation is disgusting and pretty close to blasphemy as far as I'm concerned. " To me, that includes the OP. The person of Christ is also sacrosanct to me, but one of the crucial aspects of that person is His complete humanity.

I'm sorry. I am a firm believer in courtesy and in loving one's neighbor as oneself, but I have seen His4Ever exhibit little or no such courtesy towards others who do not share her exact beliefs. Also, I take accusations of blasphemy and evil very seriously, especially when directed at someone I know very well in real life. If the baseball bat analogy was over the line, it's only because I read her as trying to bludgeon people into faith rather than persuade, and I have had to deal with people who've had the bruises and worse from such treatment.

I regret that I cannot back down on this one.
CJ

[Kirkland1244]

It's nice to see that others are seeing through "His"4Ever's pathetic, pseudo-christian act. She is, sadly, a walking example of a cancer that threatens the lives of every decent gay person, every decent non-brainwashed/braindead fundie "christian," and apparently every person with a sense of humor. There are more like her. And they travel in packs (they call them congregations, but a more appropriate term would be klans or gangs).

[Colibri]

Originally posted by His4ever
There seems to be some sort of "clique" on this board and if a person disagrees with them, everybody piles on.

Yes, you're quite right there. However, there is not just one clique on the boards, there are several. You have fallen afoul of two of the largest:

1) The Anti-Ignorance Clique

2) The Anti-Sanctimonious-Bigot Clique

Unfortunately for you, nearly everybody else on this particular board is a member of both of these cliques. It is in fact quite hard for an Ignorant Sanctimonious Bigot such as yourself to fit in here.

[Miller]

Originally posted by Forbin
You [gobear] seem unconcerned when offensive comments are made regarding the person of Christ, but ask yourself how you would react to the (oft quoted) "gays are gonna have sex with children", remark or any other idiotic stereotype concerning homosexuality.


Sorry, but that's apples and oranges. See, gobear is gay, so when H4E calls gays "an abomination", she is personally insulting him. On the other hand, the comments in the other thread cannot possibly be construed as insulting to H4E because H4E isn't Jesus. As much as she'd like to think otherwise, she does not hold the copyright on the Bible and has no grounds to dictate how other people may discuss this vitally important historical figure.

There's also the matter that none of the comments in the original thread were, in fact, insulting Jesus. At worst, they were ascribing human emotions to him no doubt shared by the people making those comments. In other words, if a horny person describes Jesus as horny, it's not an insult, because (presumably) the person describing him as such does not see horniness as a negative trait. Am I making any sense here? Likely not. P'raps I should just stick to rude comments.

[Shodan]

Some of this makes my skin crawl.

cjhoworth demands an apology, because His4ever hurt someone else's feelings.

She gets one.

And now we have another of these f***ing pile-ons, in which everybody else calls His4ever the hateful one, insults her, makes judgements as to the validity of her beliefs, condemns her to hell, etc., etc.

And all because you are the ones who are really in tune with what God wants. So we all know that when someone cites the Bible saying that someone's behavior is an abomination, that is vicious and evil.

But calling someone "sanctimonious", "hateful", a "liar", "warped", a "cancer" - all that is perfectly OK, isn't it?

To all you telling His4ever that she is never going to get thru to others by being nasty - do you ever listen to your own advice?

Or is that as hypocritical as some of the rest of this bullshit?

[gobear]

Shodan, fuck right off, why don't you? Many people, including CJHoworth, have tried to talk to H4E politely; they have tried to use gentle persuasion to help her see the error of her ways. Nopne of it has worked.

Now you're not gay and you don't like gays, so I can see how her language wouldn't bother you. I, however, find her anti-gay attitude appalling, just as I find anti-Jewish or anti-black attitudes appalling.

H4E is a hater, she's a bigot, she wraps herself in the Bible to justify her prejudice.

And to compare her anti-gay beliefs to joking about Jesus is asinine. A little religious levity pales beside anti-gay hatred which is directly responsible for fueling gaybashing and legal discrimination. And don;t hand me the "H4E is against gaybashing" because that's bullshit--if you think that the fundamentalist anti-gay movement has not given its imprimatur to attacks on gays, then you're living in a fucking fantasy land.

Somebody calls me an abomination, they get told to go fuck themselves, and that goes for their fucking sycophants, too.

[Miller]

Originally posted by Shodan
And all because you are the ones who are really in tune with what God wants. So we all know that when someone cites the Bible saying that someone's behavior is an abomination, that is vicious and evil.

But calling someone "sanctimonious", "hateful", a "liar", "warped", a "cancer" - all that is perfectly OK, isn't it?

To all you telling His4ever that she is never going to get thru to others by being nasty - do you ever listen to your own advice?

What an enourmous steaming load. Pay attention, Bubbles, so you don't keep embarassing yourself: the people telling H4E that she's never going to get through to other people by being nasty are not the same people who are being nasty right back at her. And as far as I can tell, most of the people treating her as she treats other people aren't doing it in God's name. I know I'm not. My opinions are mine alone. I make no claim of divine endorsement. And I have no problem lowering my tone to match her own. Hypocrisy? Hardly. If someone insults me and mine, I'm going to insult them right back. I've never made any claim to greater personal civility, and I've never demanded that people treat me better than I treat them. Where, pray tell, is the hypocrisy in that?

[minty green]

She didn't just fucking apologize Shodan. She whined, rationalized, complained, and nailed herself to Jesus' Very Own Cross for about the fiftieth time in her short SDMB history. And even the purported apology was only offered "because you desire it," not because she was acting like an Ignorant Sanctimonious BigotTM. Meanwhile, your own eagerness to defend every Ignorant Sanctimonious Bigot who comes along is really getting distressingly predictable.

[Siege]

Shodan, what His4Ever said was "I will apologize because you desire it. " She is not apologizing for her comment regarding for blasphemy or for claiming people's "minds are warped by the evil one." Also, since I am not agentfroot's friend but one of her spiritual advisors and because my words led to the thread which started this debacle, when she says that of agentfroot, she also says that of me. Bottom line: the apology, as written, is not accepted because it is not a true apology. What I want from His4Ever is a retraction of the implication that agentfroot or I are in league with evil because we wonder about what Christ was like as a teenager. Quite frankly, I don't expect to get it. I would also like to see one post from His4Ever where she shows compassion rather than condemning those who are different.

One of the things I treasure most about this board is it is a place where I can ask questions I wouldn't dare ask anywhere else. Responding to what to me is a perfectly legitimate question with implications of blasphemy is not only against the religion she and I claim to share, it's against the spirit of this entire message board. To me, her post in that thread contributed nothing except condemnation and a belief that the question should not have been asked. If anyone sees anything else in it, please say so, either here or by e-mail.

Respectfully,
CJ

[lynn73]

:rolleyes: Sigh...........gobear, you still have no idea where I'm coming from. I am sorry that I couldn't tell you what you wanted to hear when you asked what I thought of homosexuality. It would've been easier and simpler if I could have said what everone wanted. But it wouldn't have been the truth, dear one, and true love tells the truth. I didn't call you any names, I simply quoted what the Scripture says. And, I'm not in favor of gay bashing or any physical violence toward them in any way. I truly wish, gobear, that I could say what you want but I can't do that. The Lord loves you very much but He doesn't love what you're doing for you're hurting your own body 1 Cor 6:18. I'm sorry my believing these things hurts you, but in my heart I believe the Bible to be against this activity so how could I have told you any different? You will, no doubt, continue to think of me in the way you have been but God knows I have no hate or animosity toward you. You have the right, of course, to continue to say what you want about me and call me names or whatever. Still, I hold no animosity toward you, only a deep concern for your eternal well being which is more important IMHO than happiness here on earth, though we all want happiness. Regardless of all that's been said and discussed on this board concerning this subject, I still cannot say what you want to hear but my thoughts and prayers are with you.

[robertliguori]

Hell, Shodan, don't count me as a hypocrite. I accept that the odds of His4ever abandoning her fundamentalism are slim to none, and bitch at her because I consider her to be acting stupidly, not out of any real hope of changing her behavior.
And, apoligising for something you really don't feel sorry for is kind of pointless, especially if you go and do the same mess again.

[lynn73]

Originally posted by cjhoworth
Shodan, what His4Ever said was "I will apologize because you desire it. " She is not apologizing for her comment regarding for blasphemy or for claiming people's "minds are warped by the evil one." Also, since I am not agentfroot's friend but one of her spiritual advisors and because my words led to the thread which started this debacle, when she says that of agentfroot, she also says that of me. Bottom line: the apology, as written, is not accepted because it is not a true apology. What I want from His4Ever is a retraction of the implication that agentfroot or I are in league with evil because we wonder about what Christ was like as a teenager. Quite frankly, I don't expect to get it. I would also like to see one post from His4Ever where she shows compassion rather than condemning those who are different.

One of the things I treasure most about this board is it is a place where I can ask questions I wouldn't dare ask anywhere else. Responding to what to me is a perfectly legitimate question with implications of blasphemy is not only against the religion she and I claim to share, it's against the spirit of this entire message board. To me, her post in that thread contributed nothing except condemnation and a belief that the question should not have been asked. If anyone sees anything else in it, please say so, either here or by e-mail.

Respectfully,
CJ

I will apologize but not for finding some of the statements made in that thread irreverent and offensive. Maybe not the person who started the OP but some of the things said in the thread I found very disturbing and offensive, am I not allowed to say so? Those are the things I found offensive not the subject of the OP. I'm sorry, but some of the comments in that thread to me are downright terrible IMHO. Sorry if my opinion on it angers you.

[minty green]

Originally posted by His4ever
Sigh...........gobear, you still have no idea where I'm coming from. To the contrary, I think gobear has accurately and repeatedly described where you're coming from: simple-minded, fundamentalist Christian, antin-gay bigotry.

I am sorry that I couldn't tell you what you wanted to hear when you asked what I thought of homosexuality.No, you're not sorry at all. As a matter of fact, you appear to get a kick out of condemning people who aren't like you.
But it wouldn't have been the truth, dear one, and true love tells the truth.Considering all the half-truths, omissions, and outright lies you've told around here, I can only construe this as a concession that you are not acting out of love at all.
I'm not in favor of gay bashing or any physical violence toward them in any way.Yeah, but legal discrimination is also perfectly fine with you, as you've also stated. Why go through the trouble to smack a queer upside the head with a baseball bat when you can just deny him housing, health care, and employment?
I truly wish, gobear, that I could say what you want but I can't do that.Fine. But you can shut up altogether, can't you?

[gobear]

Sigh...........gobear, you still have no idea where I'm coming from. I am sorry that I couldn't tell you what you wanted to hear when you asked what I thought of homosexuality. It would've been easier and simpler if I could have said what everone wanted. But it wouldn't have been the truth, dear one, and true love tells the truth. I didn't call you any names, I simply quoted what the Scripture says.

Calling me an abomination is calling me names. And again, the Scriptures were written in Greek and Hebrew, not English, and if you bother to check, you'll find that the interpretation you've been taught is not necessarily correct. Check out the homosexuality discussion at religioustolerance.org.

And, I'm not in favor of gay bashing or any physical violence toward them in any way.

Glad to hear it. And if you are in favor of non-discrimination policies in housing and employment, as well as legal marriage (civil unions, whatever), that will make me very happy.

The Lord loves you very much but He doesn't love what you're doing for you're hurting your own body 1 Cor 6:18.

Aside from your perplexing certainty that you are privy to the will of the Architect of the Universe (assuming the existence of such a being in the first place, a highly dubious proposition), you keep reducing the complexity of gay relationships to the merely physical.

My dear lady, have you never been in love? Have you never snuggled on the couch with a bowl of popcorn and Koyaanisqatsi on the DVD? Have you never walked down a busy street with your beloved, sharing glances and warmth undetected by the oblivious throng? Have you never basked in the knowledge that you are adored? Love comes from the marriage of souls, not mere genital friction. If my boyfriend and I never laid a finger on each other, we would still be as gay as a daisy in May. Oh, and gay sex doesn't hurt--on the contrary, it can be ecstatically pleasurable.

And since you have been so kind to share your Scriptures with me, please allow me to share my holy writings with you...

I'm as corny as Kansas in August,
High as a flag on the Fourth of July!
If you'll excuse an expression I use,
I'm in love, I'm in love,
I'm in love, I'm in love,
I'm in love with a wonderful guy!
[quote]
South Pacific, by Rodgers and Hammerstein.

In addition, I would urge to read Plato's Symposium (http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/symposium.html) for the story of the origin of love that Aristophanes recounts at the eponymous drinking party:[quote]
Men who are a section of that double nature which was once called Androgynous are lovers of women; adulterers are generally of this breed, and also adulterous women who lust after men: the women who are a section of the woman do not care for men, but have female attachments; the female companions are of this sort. But they who are a section of the male follow the male, and while they are young, being slices of the original man, they hang about men and embrace them, and they are themselves the best of men, because they have the most manly nature. Some indeed assert that they are shameless, but this is not true; for they do not act thus from any want of shame, but because they are valiant and manly, and have a manly countenance, and they embrace that which is like them.

Or if you want the short version, you can rent the DVD of Hedwig and the Angry Inch and listen to the song, "The Origin of Love".

[agentfroot]

Originally posted by His4ever

I will apologize but not for finding some of the statements made in that thread irreverent and offensive. Maybe not the person who started the OP but some of the things said in the thread I found very disturbing and offensive, am I not allowed to say so? Those are the things I found offensive not the subject of the OP. I'm sorry, but some of the comments in that thread to me are downright terrible IMHO. Sorry if my opinion on it angers you.

Ah, here we go. I also found some of the comments pretty distasteful and vulgar. My intention was to provoke thought, not gross sexual jokes, but some people took it a bit too far. You're partially forgiven... I can understand being offended, but the way you posted made it sound like you were condemning me too.

[lynn73]

No, that wasn't my intent. I just found some of what was being said very bad, that's all.

[The Tim]

I tried posting in the GD thread that started this but it was eaten.

I always assumed the point of Christianity was that god was so compassionate he became human not that he was so powerful you should fear speaking ill of him. If it isn't then Christianity is no different than the pagan religions of the time except there is only a single god to worry about ticking off.

Part of being human, especially a famous human, is having people take pot-shots at you. Even after you are dead. I'm sure that Jesus, should he still be aware of what is said of him, can take the jokes. I've heard he has endured far worse.

[JerseyDiamond]

His4ever, e-mail me so I can e-mail you. :) JD

[d_redguy]

His4Ever, please prove to me that you are more than just an FEP (Fundamentalist Emulator Program). Go to some of the other threads and post there. DO NOT quote scripture. Did you see Survivor last week? I missed it. Tell me about it. Do you go camping? There's a thread about that too. What is your take on The Bush Doctrine? Should we invade Iraq?

Have anything mundane and pointless to share? We'd love to hear about it. (Seinfeldesque daily occurences play quite well)

Start a pit thread. Say fuck a bunch of times.

But please, PLEASE be a human being, not an FEP. Otherwise you will get the brand of OTP. This leads to your posts being ignored. You message does not get out. Who does that help?

[Boyo Jim]

His4ever, you haven't even started to understand what so many people here are trying to tell you.

You remind me of Jerry Falwell. While you may take that as a compliment, I assure you that I do not intend it as such. You have the mental flexibility of my cat Annie.

[iampunha]

H4e, do you recognize that you are not succeeding in your attempts to bring people closer to God and are in fact driving them away? I know this has been pointed out to you (by myself several times, and I was not the first), but have you recognized this fact?

[Monty]

H4E continues to make the same errors in preaching that so many of the "thumper" type of proselytizers who appear here do: try to explain, without any grounding in it themselves, the finer points of Theology, Christology, Scriptural Analysis, and Comparative Religion. Sadly, they do this to those on this board who are: ordained, scholars in the aforementioned subjects, or just well-read and intelligent people.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The members of the Church of Nine Commandments who continue to plague Great Debates apparently worship a tome which they neither do nor can read.

[D.E.S.K.Top668]

His4Ever-Let me know when you're done with the cross, I'm running out of wood for the fire
The above message was to make a couple of points. First, see how much worse that was then "His4Ever- I disagree with you because IMHO, your views seem to be based on parts of the bible often taken out context or without regard to passages which contradict or elaborate on the passage you've decide to quote." Whether you mean to or not, your posts usually come across a lot closer in tone to my first line then to my alternative. The fire and brimstone thing just doesn't work because YOUR views are irrelevant to everybody but you. Don't you understand that you can't expect others to respect you and your beliefs when you don't offer the same. I'm not saying you have to change any of your personal beliefs, but don't expect others to have an open mind when yours is apparently shut, locked, rusted, and welded closed. Maybe some day we can have a nice pleasant discourse about our respective viewpoints, but until we can agree to accept each others differences, I don't see it happening.
Oh, the other point I wanted to make with the first statement is that you're still coming across as sincere as Dana Carvey's Church Lady character.
I apologize if this comes out sounding too cruel, but truth trumps all, including kindness, and I don't want you to feel you're the only one with direct access to THE TRUTH.

[ultrafilter]

Originally posted by His4ever
You will, no doubt, continue to think of me in the way you have been but God knows I have no hate or animosity toward you.

We don't know what God knows. We only know what we know, and as far as we can tell, you're an idiot and an asshole. You want to be perceived otherwise? Act differently.

Still, I hold no animosity toward you, only a deep concern for your eternal well being which is more important IMHO than happiness here on earth, though we all want happiness.

This is the biggest load of shit I've seen since Godzilla ate that Mexican restaurant. If you really cared about gobear, you wouldn't accuse him, or other gays, of being an abomination. Would you really believe that someone cared about you if all they did was verbally abuse you? Right. Neither would we, cause we're not as dumb as you seem to think we are.

I'm gonna put this in bold so you see it. You are performing the work of Satan. God loves all creation, but you deny that. This is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the one unforgiveable sin listed in the Bible.

[Ins&Outs&What-have-yous]

His4Ever:I have no plans to take a baseball bat to anyone, that is a ludicrous comment.

She obviously reads posts the same way she reads The Bible...in the literal sense without any regard to metaphors and other literary devices.

H4E again:My attitudes are not what you think they are...I resent being called the names I've been called and being considered a hateful unloving person.

I do not believe H4E's posts her 'gays are abominations'-type messages with hateful intent. She is simply expressing thoughts and what she believes to be facts based on what's settled in the cesspool of ignorance swimming through her brain cavity. I do not like her opinions, especially her views regarding homosexuality, and I certain find the comment - 'Your minds seem to have been warped by the evil one.' - not surprising based on her reputation. Anyway, I am not going to label her as hateful or unloving...just extremely narrowminded and simple. Within her upbringing and fundamentalist religious community, her thoughts on gays, society, Jesus, et cetera are accepted so she can't seem to question her perceptions of these matters.

To the rest of us, many of H4E's comments reveal bigotry and hate. To her, these comments are socially accepted views. She has shown no evidence of individual thought whatsoever; she just gives us the same rubbish that was fed to her by other Bible thumping shmucks.

She has the right to view any threads she likes and she has the right to post whatever foulness is oozing from her mind, but I am tired of seeing it. All the backlash against her posts has become a bit redundant as well, but, of course, the criticism against H4E is proportional to her splashes of ignorant ramblings.

I suppose it doesn't hurt to keep trying to phase her, but I seriously doubt that H4E will budge a single picometer toward being reasonable. And I am certain that she will not win over any converts among us more cultured people.

In short, what I'm trying to say (eventhough I'm really sleepy) is that H4E's messages explicitly present hatred, visciousness, bigotry, etc...she just does not realize it. I wish she would open her mind and shut her mouth for a while.

AC

[Liberal]

His4ever

It would've been easier and simpler if I could have said what everone wanted.No one is asking for that. See whether you can tell the difference between these two responses:

(1) The Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination. That book speaks for me, and if all you're going to do is misunderstand me, then why should I bother responding at all? It's not that I don't love you. I just hate what you're doing.

(2) The way I interpret the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. However, the Bible also calls on me to love without keeping a record of wrongs. Although I am heterosexual, I'm in no position to judge anyone else. I'm just as much of a sinner as you are (or worse).

Try number (2) sometime.

[Shodan]

Originally posted by gobear
Now you're not gay and you don't like gays, so I can see how her language wouldn't bother you.

Nor am I a fundamentalist. Can you see how this kind of a pile-on would bother me nonetheless?

Originally posted by minty green
She didn't just fucking apologize Shodan. She whined, rationalized, complained, and nailed herself to Jesus' Very Own Cross for about the fiftieth time in her short SDMB history. And even the purported apology was only offered "because you desire it," not because she was acting like an Ignorant Sanctimonious BigotTM.
And Kirkland1244, who was banned for his behavior, is back without an apology. This passes without comment. But an apology from those who offend against political correctness is rejected out of hand. God forbid anything should interfere with a chance to vent at a nice, safe, socially approved Bad Guy.

Originally posted by minty green
Meanwhile, your own eagerness to defend every Ignorant Sanctimonious Bigot who comes along is really getting distressingly predictable.

Hardly everyone who behaves so, minty green. For instance, as far as I am concerned, those who act that way in this thread are on their own.

Regards,
Shodan

[Steve Wright]

Originally posted by His4ever


I will apologize but not for finding some of the statements made in that thread irreverent and offensive. Maybe not the person who started the OP but some of the things said in the thread I found very disturbing and offensive, am I not allowed to say so? Those are the things I found offensive not the subject of the OP. I'm sorry, but some of the comments in that thread to me are downright terrible IMHO. Sorry if my opinion on it angers you.

If I might stick my oar in here...? There have been times when I've got hot under the collar about what I perceived as irreverence and blasphemy: here's how I dealt with it.

I worked through my own feelings about whatever had upset me, and tried (as far as I could) to see it from God's point of view. Would whatever-it-was matter to God? If so, why would it? If not, why should it matter to me? If I couldn't come up with sensible answers to those questions, I resolved not to be offended by whatever-it-was. And, if I was still offended... at least I had solid reasons for that, which I could use as a starting point to open a dialogue with whoever had upset me.

In a way, I've come to regard blasphemy as a positive thing - an opportunity for me to question and re-examine my own faith; to concentrate on the things that matter, to reach a better understanding of the work God wants me to do in my life. And I'll add one more thing (which I first read in a fantasy novel by a guy called E.R. Eddison - the many ways God can talk to us can be quite unexpected, sometimes); blasphemy doesn't hurt God, it doesn't hurt us - the only person it can hurt is the person doing the blaspheming.

Just my opinion...

[minty green]

What the hell does Kirkland have to do with H4e's bad behavior? I see you haven't grown weary of bashing your "political correctness" strawman, but is it really necessary to resort to diversion at the same time?

[elf6c]

Not one, but two humorless one-trick-ponies on display in this thread.

The nice thing is that the relevance and insight provided by most of the posters in this thread did much to show why its worthwile to put up with the predictably tiresome posts of certain posters.

[vanilla]

I still think much of this has been taught to His4Ever by her church.
I think she needs to find a more liberal church and see that you can be a christian and (whats the word i'm looking for) ...accepting at the same time.

[Monty]

vanilla: "Christilke," like the Lord commanded us all to be. ;)

[Kirkland1244]

Originally posted by Shodan
And Kirkland1244, who was banned for his behavior, is back without an apology.

That's your assumption. Just because I didn't apologize in public doesn't mean I didn't apologize for stepping over the line in the GD.

Everyone should note that the bigot-coddling Shodan didn't dispute being anti-gay. That alone should tell you enough about his character to reject his comments out of hand.

Kirk

[Homebrew]

Oh yeah, I forgot to say welcome back, Kirk. I really hope you learned the necessary restraint for Great Debates. You'll be better for it if you have.

And Kirkland1244, who was banned for his behavior, is back without an apology. This passes without comment. But an apology from those who offend against political correctness is rejected out of hand.

Bullshit and you know it, Shodan. He wouldn't be back if he hadn't apologized, probably profusely, to the Administration here for stepping over the line in Great Debates. He did not, however, owe an apology for his Pit reactions.

Furthermore, her apology is dismissed because it is obviously insincere.

[Guinastasia]

Shodan, that crack at Kirkland was out of line. For crying out loud-he had to have appologized to be allowed back. And for that matter, that's between him and the admins and mods. It's none of your damn business.

His4Ever is, in my view, acting out of ignorance, rather than malice. But that doesn't make it any less aggravating.

[The Ace of Swords]

Perhaps Shodan saw no need to dignify it with a response?

I think poorly of His4ever, owing, no doubt, to the blanket and irrational condemnation of groups, and her immunity to thoughtful debate. Unfortunately, she has no monopoly on that, judging from some of the other posters here, who feel it's appropriate to hurl vicious insults, like Klansman, in lieu of debating or ignoring.

I think Shodan's comparison between posters' pitting has merit; why is it we pit cluelessness with thrice the vehemence that we pit intentional malice?

[Kirkland1244]

Thanks, Guin and Homebrew.

[Shodan]

"Out of line"?

So when a particularly abusive poster returns, it must be assumed that his apology was perfectly sincere, and he must be given every possible benefit of the doubt. Even though no one has seen the apology.

And yet we can all see into His4ever's mind, and know for certain that her apology is "obviously insincere".

And Kirkland1244 - I am sure you will excuse me for not rising to your bait. My interest in remaining in your good offices is less than burning.

You are free to draw what conclusions you please from not being corrected. It might be a good idea for you to consider if, at any point in the past, you may have reacted a little more strongly than the situation warranted.

[Polycarp]

Guinastasia's last post speaks for me. I have the following comments:

Welcome back, Kirk. I cannot tell you how glad I am to see you back here again.
I think you (Kirk) misjudge Shodan. I don't agree with him on a lot of issues, including the one at hand, but I think he is sincere and thoughtful in what he has to say, and in no way hates or despises you and the other gay people here. Next time he posts something you disagree with, walk away and take time to calm down, then come back and re-read it. If (as is likely) you still need to disagree with what he said, you can do it without anger.
For reasons others have given, I think Shodan owes Kirk an apology for his comments regarding him here. That, however, is MHO, and is not intended to be anything more than moral suasion on him to come up with one. (It would not hurt if Kirk retracted his accusation, too -- presuming what Shodan has to say in any way demonstrates that Kirk was in error in calling Shodan anti-gay and full of hatred, or words to that effect.)
With regard to the OP, and whether or not there was a valid apology, I can completely see His4Ever's point. Jesus is important to me, a vital part of my life. My understanding of Him, though, is that He'd chuckle at the parodies of what growing up as a human being destined to be the Messiah was like. His4Ever, operating on a worldview in which Jesus is completely without human parts or passions (contrary to orthodox docrtine, I might add), sees it as hateful mockery of Him. I cannot doubt that she sees it as offensive.
However, the point at issue is not what she thought about the wisecracks but about the original question raised by agentfroot -- and I stand unreservedly by cjhoworth. It's a valid question, one that deserves answering by anyone who has an opinion regarding Jesus and what His role in history and metaphysics was, including those who do not attribute any special role to him other than a godstruck young Jew as well as all of us for whom He is Savior and Lord. For insulting agentfroot, His4Ever is very much out of line -- and if it was not her intent to do so, she needs to stop defending her stance vis-à-vis the GD Standup Antireligious Comedy Troupe long enough to realize that she has insulted a teenager asking a valid question about Jesus -- and, by extension, that teenager's church-school teacher who started this thread. That is what the OP of this thread is about, and what His4Ever is seemingly too intent on "martyrdom for her faith" to realize.
Finally, since His4Ever seems to be ignoring my post to her from earlier in this thread, I'd like to ask the Teeming Pitsters for a critique of it. Did I seem in any way to be insulting or mocking her, or rather, as was my intent, trying to guide her into a different view of what had happened and what people were saying and doing -- and IMHO one that is more attuned with Christ's commands to her, me, and cjhoworth as to how to behave as His followers.

[iampunha]

Shodan, from H4e's first post in this thread: "I will apologize because you desire it."

Not "I apologize for being rude" or anything like that. "I'm sorry because you want me to be." Almost the most unapologetic apology there is to be made here, along the lines of JDT's infamous "I, er, I guess I'm ... hehe, I was only joking! Hey guys, look over there!" apology for accusing a member of the board of being a pedophile.

Kirkland, in my estimation, most likely (read: it would shock me to the core) did not say "I'm sorry because you want me to be." Had he said such his status would not have changed back from banned to member. It is furthermore my estimation that at least one person talked to him off the boards about his behavior/posts/etc and suggested ways to get through the anger he felt from the words of other posters.

So to summarize: Kirkland is back here because, if nothing else, he was sincere in his apology. H4e wsa neither banned nor sincere in her "contrition". And she seems to have learned almost nothing in her (albeit brief, but intense) entire time here.

[Dr. Lao]

Originally posted by Shodan
So when a particularly abusive poster returns, it must be assumed that his apology was perfectly sincere, and he must be given every possible benefit of the doubt. Even though no one has seen the apology.Now you are changing your story. At first you said Kirk didn't apologize so we should accept H4e's apology no matter how sincere it is or we are all hypocrits. But now its clear that he did. He may have been insincere. Or maybe he was sincere. If you want to talk about Kirk being an insincere asshole, start a thread about how Kirk is an insincere asshole.

And yet we can all see into His4ever's mind, and know for certain that her apology is "obviously insincere". H4e apology is obviously insincere because she says in that post that she isn't being sincere by saying she is only apologizing because cj wants her to.

[The Ace of Swords]

He's to apologize to Kirkland for requesting an apology from Kirkland?

Yeah, that makes sense. How's'bout Kirkland make right the last six months of bad actions, AND show that he understands what he did wrong, and then he'll have some standing to complain about Shodan.

For what it's worth, yeah, His4Ever's apology was lame. So was Kirkland's, since "Just because I didn't apologize in public doesn't mean I didn't apologize for stepping over the line in the GD," doesn't mean that he did apologize. Lame, lame, lame. Throw in the intemperate remarks here, and I don't perceive Kirkland as contrite in the least.

[iampunha]

So Ace, if Kirkland didn't apologize to the mods/other powers-that-be, how is it that he's back? It takes more than just someone(s) vouching for a person to get said person back if the banning was warranted.

[Polycarp]

Shodan, addressing Kirkland: You are free to draw what conclusions you please from not being corrected. It might be a good idea for you to consider if, at any point in the past, you may have reacted a little more strongly than the situation warranted.

You know, I tend to agree with you on the degree and heat of Kirk's past comments. However, neither in the theological realm nor in the context of board practice, it is for neither of us to judge. Those who have a right to judge, have, and have forgiven him -- in both cases.

Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." You think maybe there's a lesson for us in that, friend?

[MrVisible]

Aw, it's just Ace, getting his jollies by poking people again. It's a standard pattern with him; annoy people until they lash out at him, and then pull the "you're all picking on me" act. I guess everybody's gotta have a hobby.

[Liberal]

Let's all apologize. I apologize to anyone I might have unintentionally offended if they think for some reason that an apology is necessary. There. I feel much better.

[Esprix]

Lib, I think you owe us all an apology for that apology. Really.

Oh, and I apologize. In fact, I even apologize for apologizing.

(Does anybody else feel like a fried egg?)

Esprix

[The Ace of Swords]

Iampunha: To me, at least, they are two different beasts. How Kirkland got back here is between him and the Moderators. He has certainly not apologized to the board, nor has he explicitly admitted an apology of any kind.

MrVisible: Physician-child, heal thyself. :rolleyes:

[Kirkland1244]

Originally posted by Shodan
So when a particularly abusive poster returns, it must be assumed that his apology was perfectly sincere, and he must be given every possible benefit of the doubt. Even though no one has seen the apology.

The Moderators have seen the apology (please note this is a specific statement that there was one). If that's not good enough for you, then that's your problem.

But nice try, by the way, of trying to deflect the well-deserved criticism of your pet bigot His4Ever by twisting this thread to be about me. Very subtle. Really. Quite a decent effort on behalf of an indecent person.

Kirk

[gobear]

Feh on apologies. "Non, je ne regrette rien..."

[Polycarp]

Or, as Frankie used to say,

"Regrets, I've had a few...
But then again, too few to mention..."


;)

[Kirkland1244]

Originally posted by Polycarp
Welcome back, Kirk. I cannot tell you how glad I am to see you back here again.

Thanks.

I think you (Kirk) misjudge Shodan. I don't agree with him on a lot of issues, including the one at hand, but I think he is sincere and thoughtful in what he has to say, and in no way hates or despises you and the other gay people here.

He supports a viscious anti-gay bigot and helps her spread her propaganda. That is hate.

Kirk

[robertliguori]

Dudes. Must we do this again? Shodan: H4E is being willfuly ignorant and hurtful. And Kirkland owes an apology to a) those whom he insulted, and b) the mods. He don't owe one to the Teeming Twenty Thousand.
Not that it matters. I'd say that Kirkie has paid for his sins. Actually, I look forward to him explaining, in a cool, clear, calm voice, what an idiot H4E is, in monosyllables.

I would also like to propose the ten-second rule: Before you post something vitrolic, breathe deeply and think happy thoughts for ten seconds. Then go back, and see if anything you wrote was over the top.

IMHO: Saying, "I think you're an abomination," and "I believe this book states that you are an abomination, and that this book is true," are the same damn thing. That means that His4ever has opened herself to someone like me heading over to Internet Infidels, downloading the list of Biblical atrocites and inconsistencies, and asking her if she believes that, for instance, disobedient sons and Onanists should be put to death. If so, we've just lost the teenagers.

[The Ace of Swords]

Are we six degrees from the OP yet?

I mean, we haven't even mentioned His4ever's hideous colored font usage! I think that merits an apology, too.

[Shodan]

I have started this post twice over, and I still don't know how it is going to turn out.

OK, I was wrong - now it is restarted three times. And I have run out of different ways to explain what I am thinking.

Nonetheless, because I value the opinion of most - hell, of all - the posters in this thread - yes, Kirkland1244, you too - and especially because I cannot imagine anyone regretting that they took Polycarp's advice on a matter such as this -

I apologize for any of the remarks I made that were offensive. If I seemed to state or imply that Kirkland1244 should not have been un-banned, I am sorry for that as well.

I don't want to water this down by tacking on any lame excuses afterwards, but I am honestly unsure if the above is what the board found to be offensive in what I said. If there is something more/something else that I said that went over the line, please let me know what it was.

And here is where I am tempted to justify myself by carping, or by pointing fingers at others. Which would spoil the effect.

So I guess this is where the post is going to end up.

Regards,
Shodan

[Kirkland1244]

Originally posted by robertliguori
IMHO: Saying, "I think you're an abomination," and "I believe this book states that you are an abomination, and that this book is true," are the same damn thing.

Yes! Precisely! They are exactly the same thing! Thank God, someone else smart enough to realize this.

His4Ever ascribing the source of her anti-gay bigotry to the oft-redacted myths of a bronze age nomadic desert tribe doesn't make her any less of an anti-gay bigot.

Kirk

[Mtgman]

Originally posted by Polycarp
His4Ever, when I first came to this board, the reaction was, "Jeez, not another one of them Christians come to preach at us!" Some thought it, some overtly posted it. The guy who said in essence what I just quoted (albeit with better English than I did) became one of my closest friends, both here and IRL. (I won't say who for two reasons: He's no longer a member of this board nor a resident of this city; and his screen name would lead you to erroneous conclusions about his spiritual life. But longtime members will know just whom I'm speaking about.)
[Church Lady]Hmmm... Could it be...
SATAN
[/Church Lady]

:D

Enjoy,
Steven

[Liberal]

His4Ever ascribing the source of her anti-gay bigotry to the oft-redacted myths of a bronze age nomadic desert tribe doesn't make her any less of an anti-gay bigot.Bigotry is as bigotry does, I reckon. You've just offended about four billion Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Are you an anti-dentite?

[Siege]

OK folks, now that it's outside of business hours which means no one's likely to phone me with a wonderful job offer, let me get back to this mess.

First of all, His4Ever has e-mailed me and I have responded to her off-line. Hopefully, we'll be able to sort things out, (Polycarp, one phrase I used was "I will, with God's help.")

Second, she did say, in response to a post by agentfroot on this page (and I hope this doesn't turn out to be the first post on page 3!), No, that wasn't my intent. I just found some of what was being said very bad, that's all. That, as stated in agentfroot's post was the way you posted made it sound like you were condemning me too.

Apology accepted with regard to the OP. I suspect we may be thrashing out other issues raised for a very long time.

Now, for the rest of you, Bosda, "Back at you!" and Kirkland, it's good to have you back, warts and all. Drat. I'm not going to do a mile long post addressing all of you. Besides, most of you know what I think of you. Oh, Polycarp, thanks for the back up.

I was worried about being too harsh, but her post cut deep. Anyway, I, for one, am willing to wait to see what happens next.

Thanks,
CJ

[Kirkland1244]

Originally posted by Libertarian
You've just offended about four billion Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

First of all, I think you're overestimating those numbers. Closer to 3.5 billion of them in the world.

And secondly, what's offensive? The Bible was redacted by a nomadic desert tribe with a bronze age understanding of the world. And the stories of the early part of the Bible most certainly are myths. There is no reasonable reason for any thinking person to believe in a literal six-day creation, a Garden of Eden or any of that clearly mythical stuff. But that doesn't make the underlying message of those tall tales (God created the world for man, etc etc) false.

Are you an anti-dentite? [/B]

Yes. I hate doctors and dentists. They use needles. I hate needles. They hurt.

Kirk

[Polycarp]

Sounds good. CJ, what would you think of a GD thread, similar to the one dreamer started on living a Christian life, that addresses some of the points people have made with reference to His4Ever's apparent attitudes but in a non-confrontational way -- inviting her and, say, Joe and Jersey to give their reactions but with the explicit caveat that nobody is to "give place to anger" but simply work out our differing understandings of what proper behavior in such situations ought to be? I honestly think it could be very fruitful if handled right.

[Siege]

Sounds good to me. I've got an idea for a thread over there myself.

CJ

[Mtgman]

Originally posted by Ace0Spades
I think Shodan's comparison between posters' pitting has merit; why is it we pit cluelessness with thrice the vehemence that we pit intentional malice?
Because ignorance(cluelessness) can be remedied(fought, as the motto of the site says). Intentional malice can only be lamented.

I agree some of the pile-ons get excessive, but everyone likes to have their say and it is their right to do so.

Enjoy,
Steven

[minty green]

Well done, Shodan. If nobody else noticed it, I did.

[Siege]

Shodan, I'm afraid I had to go back and look, but I agree with minty green. Very definitely, well done.

CJ

[RexDart]

Originally posted by D.E.S.K.Top668
The bible might be god's word, but I have yet to see a copy with footnotes

Mine has footnotes. Maybe it's a different god though, his name seems to be Harper Collins, which doesn't sound like a real intimidating god-name. But he speaks in a language called "new revised standard" that for some probably mystical reason looks just like English, surely proof of the divine. Actually, in this language, you couldn't refer to Harper Collins as a "he" for some reason, so I hope I haven't offended him...or it. Oh, Harper Collins, I beseech thee...I mean "ask you"....for forgiveness.

[Mars Horizon]

The thing I like best about Shodan's classy apology is that he offers it unreservedly. He doesnt prattle on about all the contributing factors that made him cause offense. He takes responsibility for his actions. Very nicely done. H4E - you could take notice and learn, IMHO.

Kirk - let me welcome you back too, since this seems as good a place as any. I beg of you to take the advice given, to step away, breathe deeply, and consider - selah - before you post in anger anywhere other than the Pit. I believe that if you do, you will find that you have a flood of supporters. There are many here who are not gay who strongly support your right to be left alone to love as you are. Cheers to you my friend.

Mars

[vanilla]

To get unbanned, Kirkland had to say 5 Hail Marys..:)