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View Full Version : Who here thinks "The Wrath of Khan" was the best Star Trek movie, and why?


Lizard
09-24-2002, 11:31 PM
I think it was the tension between Ricardo Montalban and Shatner's characters. There just seemed to be real meat to it.
Plus, Montalban just looked great in that chest-baring costume.

Fern Forest
09-25-2002, 12:38 AM
What I really appreciated was that Khan was smart. And the only reason he lost was lack of experience. Hubris played a part too but had Khan fought more battles in space he would have won.

Miller
09-25-2002, 01:10 AM
I agree, although it's not like being the best Star Trek movie is a tremendous accomplishment. It's a pretty weak field, if you get right down to it. However, along side First Contact, Wrath of Khan is the only ST movie I'd consider buying.

I agree with all of the reasons already given, and would add two more:

The sense of continuity with the TV show. The one thing ST fans are always clamoring for is more continuity, and yet no one at Paramount seems to ever listen.

It's the only space combat movie I can think of that doesn't rely on a bunch of physics-defying fighters. Instead, we get a good old fashioned battleship duel: two big, stately ships standing off and slugging at each other until one goes down.

Sublight
09-25-2002, 01:26 AM
The fact that not only was Khan an enemy equal to Kirk, he had some real depth to him. He wasn't "evil for the sake of evil" or some nebulous superentity that we have to hold hands and commune with to prove our worth.

No deus ex pseudoscience, and no freakin' time travel!

Plus, the ending was incredible. I cried.

Bryan Ekers
09-25-2002, 03:34 AM
The movie's premise wasn't original, but you can't really go wrong with Moby Dick and Captain Ahab. There's no effort in this movie (as there were in so many other movies and post-TOS episodes) to introduce elements of sanctimony and moralizing. Khan hates Kirk, Khak wants to kill Kirk, Kirk kills Khan instead. If Khan had been chasing Picard or Janeway, there would have been a lot of speechifying and some contrived way for Khan to get caught in his own trap (i.e. the end of the space battle in Star Trek: Insurrection shows the bad guys getting toasted when their own torpedo touches off some massive explosion, and not through direct hostile action from the Enterprise, even though the Enterprise[/]i] would have been perfectly justified to defend itself).

The themes of the Genesis Project (large-scale genetic engineering: its promise and dangers) is still relevant today, if not more so than in 1982.

There was no ridiculously powerful alien entity, as in V'Ger (ST1), the whale probe (ST4) and "God" (ST5).
There were no "magical" elements, as in the Nexus (ST7) or the planet that grants immortality (ST9).
And there was no time travel, as in ST4 and ST8.

Above all, the story in ST2 is straightforward, honest, with no deus ex machina trickery or laziness, well-paced and well-acted. We get to see a [i]Trek character literally scream in frustrated rage ("KHAAAAAANNN!") and it's not because some alien telepath is controlling him; it's an honest and perfectly reasonable reaction. The NextGen and later characters were so bloodless and boring, it's hard to imagine any of them (except for Patrick Stewart, possibly) getting so incredibly pissed off.

There is violence in the movie, but it isn't of the bloodless "we lost another three nameless crewmen, Captain Janeway" variety. The violence of the initial Kobayashi Maru scenario foreshadowed just how nasty this movie would get, including the dramatic deaths of Peter Preston and, eventually, Spock. The crew of the Enterprise-E also suffered losses in First Contact but those deaths were of characters the audience cared little about and the main cast remained untouched by their loss.

And as Osiris pointed out, Khan lost not because of some technobabble nonsense, and not because he arrogantly got caught in his own trap, but simply becuase Kirk was a better, more experienced starship commander. I've always disliked the notion that intelligence alone was enough to gaurantee success, and unfortunately, the TNG audience was force-fed this message every time Wesley's science project saved the day. Khan's suicide wasn't just a "you'll never take me alive" gesture. He fully expected to snare the crippled Enterprise, and was willing to kill himself just to take Kirk with him. Have we ever seen another Trek villian show such dedicated hatred? Usually they just act like idiots at the crucial moment.

I also happen to be a big Saavik fan, and Alley's performance was thankfully free of any stupidity (the fact that Saavik finds humans to be vaguely icky seems perfectly apropos).

Sidebar, re Saavik: I have a photograph of myself at a convention standing next to Robin Curtis and I'm doing the "fingers behind the head" gag to her, although with the Vulcan salute.

David Marcus as the long-lost son has no soap-opera feel to it, i.e. no big heavy-duty dramatic revelation "But he's your SON! (dum-dum-DUMMMMM)". Just Kirk saying "I did what you wanted; I stayed away." It sounds vaguely like a bitter divorce condition, which is something else the audience can relate to.

Above all, it's a story about revenge and death and rebirth, classic timeless themes that can entertain an audience without lecturing them. The final battle is slow-paced but dramatic, like two submarines going at it, and the ending is heart-rending without being manipulative in the least.

Weird_AL_Einstein
09-25-2002, 06:02 AM
For the longest time I've wavered among II, IV, and VI as my favorite Trek film. The stuff I've read in this thread has been pretty persuasive though. My needle now points at II.

Bryan Ekers
09-25-2002, 06:08 AM
Hey, how did all those italics end up in my post?

KHAAAAAANNNNNN!!!

Skip
09-25-2002, 06:38 AM
I liked it as it seemed to live up to the camp of the TV series and not the almost put on "look we're serious sci-fi" of the original film.

And did you see Montalban's chest? It was friggin huge! He must've struggled to get through doorways.

CalMeacham
09-25-2002, 07:19 AM
I liked it because the story was staightforward, without hype, doubletalk, and pretension. The idea of alien creatures that just happen to enable the villain to control your mind was pretty hokey, and Kirk's actions in not raising shields for so long seemed pretty dumb, but, allowing these, the story was pretty good.

With its ship-to-ship battle under limited circumstances, it resembled more closely than any other Star Trek movie (or episode, even) the "Horatio Hornblower in Space" premise that Roddenbery was supposedly after.


Just for the record, I like Star Trek IV about as well, but for different reasons.


I think having Nicholas Meyer ("The Seven Percent Solution") around for both made a big difference. Having Harve Bennett around obviously did, too, but who woulda guessed it, having seen his previous work? Some of it ended up on MST3K, for cryin' out loud!

CrazyCatLady
09-25-2002, 08:10 AM
Khan was just the sort of villain I can really get behind, someone with a real, understandable motive for his troublemaking.

OTOH, you just have to love the first TNG movie since Bill Shatner dies not just once, but twice. I'll pay six bucks for that anytime.

TelcontarStorm
09-25-2002, 08:39 AM
I'll jump on this bandwaggon.
Being as I havn't seen the last two ST movies, I can't say a thing about them. But, it was WoK that made me a Trekker. (Unfortunatly, Voyager turned me right off.)
Like the above posters,I also agree that the ship to ship battle was well done.But what did it for me was the double whammy of watching not only my beloved Enterprise bite the dust, but also our beloved first officer. I was in mourning for 10 minutes. I know I wasn't the only one who walked away from that theatre in tears.

Too bad thay had to ruin it by bringing Spock back. Bastages

kingpengvin
09-25-2002, 08:55 AM
It moved quickly, made sense (within its own inner logic) had great characterizations, real human drama, It was Shatner's best performance, the first real battle scenes in Trek that still hold up and Ricardo Montalban gets to steal the show.

I also like the fact that there are characters who say the obvious to the two lead antagonists. Saavik telling kirk that if any ship doesn't communicate it is regulation that the sheilds should be raised and Jochim telling Khan that it is unwise to enter the nebula as they will lose what advantage they have. It is only the ego of the two men that prevent them from listening to the suggestions.

The DVD just recently released brought back my love of this movie.
___________________________________________________
"You klingons have killed my bastard son"

Eonwe
09-25-2002, 11:10 AM
Bryan Ekers, well written!

One other thing that makes this movie the best is the score by James Horner. Well concieved and executed, I particularly love the music which begins somewhere shortly before the Enterprise heads for the nebula (I think) and continues on for the duration of the battle. It fits seemlessly with the dialogue and action.


Re: Montalban's chest

It's a fake.

I also very much agree that the crewman's death in sickbay adds a lot to the movie. Makes me get all misty eyed:

P. Preston: Give the word, admiral.

Kirk: The word is given.

Scotty: He stayed at his post, when the other trainees ran!

Chokes me up every time.

MovieMogul
09-25-2002, 11:32 AM
Well done indeed, Bryan. One thing you don't mention, though its implied, is that it's also a meditation on aging and the choices one makes to dwell on the past or learn from it. This ties into Kirk's experience--ST2 seemed to be the adventure that Kirk was training for all his life. The film is surprisingly touching because it makes the most of our investments in the characters without taking that investment for granted. Plus, the designs (costumes, art direction) are an improvement over the first film and the film is often quite scary with some deaths (before Spock's) that are genuinely shocking.

The NextGen and later characters were so bloodless and boring, it's hard to imagine any of them (except for Patrick Stewart, possibly) getting so incredibly pissed off.
The only film that comes close to WoK is First Contact, which also has the Ahab motif and a scene (with the tommy gun) where Picard really lets it rip. With Alfre Woodard, James Cromwell, & Alice Krige in tow, I'd argue it's the best acted of the series (and the closest to also having genuine shocks and violence). Interestingly, it also capitalizes on an old nemesis of the captain's, removing the need for lots of clunky exposition and giving the crew a little breathing room to expand on their characters.

They're the only 2 ST films I'd own.

KneadToKnow
09-25-2002, 01:16 PM
Re: Montalban's chest

It's a fake.
I'm getting really flurking sick of this. I started not to even come into this thread because I knew someone was going to start that crap up again. But, this being the Straight Dope, I'll voice my objections in the simplest possible terms appropriate to the venue:

Cite?

Pixellent
09-25-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Eonwe
[b]
Re: Montalban's chest

It's a fake.

Listen... I ain't the kind of Star Trek fan who gets all red-faced hysterical when someone points out just how long Bill Shatner's been wearing a corset, or anything like that. I just hate stoopid rumors, about whatever subject.

Nick Meyer, ST II's director and (uncredited) screenwriter, has been quoted more than once (most recently on the DVD commentary track of the ST II director's cut) on this subject. He has two things to say about it:

1. More people ask him if if Montalban's pecs in ST II are real than ask any other question.

2. They're real.

Unless you can find me a photo of ol' Ricardo being fitted for foam rubber titties, I think that pretty much settles it...

Terminus Est
09-25-2002, 01:45 PM
I got a cite for you, but in the opposite direction. Mr. Spock himself says that Khan's chest is real (http://www.filmfrontier.com/films/trek02/prod3.htm):
Leonard Nimoy: "As Khan, Montalban wore a costume that showed off his chest, which was so impressively developed that many viewers speculated it might be a false breastplate. Iím here to tell you: It most definitely wasnít."

Khan, of course, maintains that his chest is indeed that large (http://www.trekgalaxy.com/newsextra293.htm):

"All anybody wanted to know was, is that Ricardo Montalban's real chest?'" For the record, Montalban states, those are indeed his own pectorals.

Eonwe
09-25-2002, 02:07 PM
I stand corrected :) I thought I remembered reading somewhere that it wasn't real, but perhaps I was just confusing Nimoy's statement in my head. Continue salivating over the well developed pecs, Montalban fans!

and KneadToKnow, taking this whole Montalban's chest thing a little personally, no? Perhaps a few decades on Alpha Ceti V would cool you off!


Get a life!


the previous lines were all intended in good fun.

gonzoron
09-25-2002, 02:42 PM
Well, I do love Wrath of Khan, but I think Undiscovered Country will always be my favorite.

It's got:
- Timely alegory of collapse of USSR/Klingon Empire
- Spock loosening up: "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end."
- Shakespeare quoting, scene chewing klingon Chris Plummer going toe to toe with Kirk
- Captain Sulu
- Better comic relief than even the Voyage Home. (Uhura's klingon lessons, the dinner party, crewman Dax's feet, dueling Kirks, etc.)
- A real sense of scope, with the Gulag, the praxis explosion, inside the klingon ships, the trial.
- Zero-g blood

And my personal favorite, the mindmeld. I think the "nitpicker book" guy was the one who pointed it out to me, that here we see that Spock was holding back in every other mindmeld. Here, he's betrayed by his apprentice, and the fate of the federation rests on the information she has, so he doesn't hold back, he breaks her. Great scene.

The Mad Hermit
09-25-2002, 02:42 PM
Even I have to say, Bryan Ekers, although I have disageed with you in the past I heartily agree with your analysis of the Star Trek movies.

I just wonder why they can't seem to learn from this and apply the same standard to all ST efforts.

KneadToKnow
09-25-2002, 02:53 PM
and KneadToKnow, taking this whole Montalban's chest thing a little personally, no?
[huskily whispered voice-over]
What Eonwe doesn't know is that we've replaced Knead with Ricardo Montalban. Let's see if he notices the difference.
[/huskily whispered voice-over]

Eonwe
09-25-2002, 03:02 PM
Oh, and did I mention Knead, you've got quite a marvelous chest. Is that real?

:D

MrMyth
09-25-2002, 03:06 PM
I have nothing to add to this conversation other than 'Foam Rubber Titties' is a perfect band name.


And yes, I know that's getting rather old.

Cheesesteak
09-25-2002, 03:16 PM
WoK is a fantastic look into Kirk's personality, and shows exactly why he's "the captain". His unwillingness to lose, even against the no-win scenario tells volumes about the man.

Kirk - "I don't like to lose"

Tars Tarkas
09-25-2002, 03:17 PM
ST2 is my favorite, i wore out my tape of it (the ABC extended broadcast version) and need to get the DVD.

Morbo
09-25-2002, 04:47 PM
At the risk of getting gang-tackled, I gotta admit IV was my favorite. You've got San Francisco, (I live about 200 yards from where the Bird of Prey landed in GGP), time travel actually done well for a change, a conservation theme, freaky chirping space whales, Kirk does *not* automatically get the girl, plus tons of quotable dialog:

"Well, double-dumb-ass on you!"
"A little too much LDS"
AP Kirk Thatcher's punk song on the bus: "I hate you! And I berate you! And I say SCREW YOU!!"
"There be whales here!"
"It's not just the whales - it's the water!"
"Computer?"
"Where are the nucular wessels?"

Plus, I never liked the actors that played Kirk's son and ex-wife, and I always thought that whole "hours seem like days" thing was a little wheezy. Don't get me wrong - II is definitely my 2nd favorite, but I've always liked IV better. YMMV.

I am Sparticus
09-26-2002, 02:21 AM
Yup. Why? It wasn't boring, it had the cheesey Kirk tricks we'd come to love, and was most like a lively TOS episode, but with better production values. Plus, Spock bites the big one! Oops! Spoiler!

Bryan Ekers
09-26-2002, 04:14 AM
On further thought, one element of WoK I find irresistable is the "And I wish to go on... hurting you" speech. Most times, movie villians are so single-minded that they chase the hero recklessly and end up causing their own deaths, usually in some stupid fashion involving the villian dangling off a cliff, the hero reaches down to help him, the villian attacks the hero with a knife and ends up falling. I mean, c'mon stupid, don't knife the guy who's trying to help you! Get back on solid ground and then knife him. It's all a wishy-washy way for the villian to die (as justice demands) without having the squeaky-clean hero actually kill him (which might be morally ambiguous).

Anyhoo, Khan knows Kirk is stuck in the asteroid and delivers his little speech. Khan's about to sail off and destroy the Enterprise and he's perfectly happy leaving Kirk marooned (he thinks) forever. Montalban looks so satisfied and spent during his speech that I almost expected him to light up a cigarette. Now that's a villian who knows when to declare victory. Khan's calm is so absolute that Kirk's screaming stands as harsh but just contrast.

Of course, later on Kirk goads Khan into the nebula with "I'm laughing at the superior intellect" and it's back to Ahab and Moby, but by that point it's well established that Joachim is Starbuck and though Khan overrules him out of anger, he never does so out of arrogance or stupidity. On several occasions he actually takes his lieutenant's advice, something movie villians rarely do (see rule 37 (http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)).

Plus there was that mega-cool moment (one among many):

Joachim: ["that's wierd"] Our shields are dropping.
Khan: [classic "huh?" expression] Raise them!
Joachim: [low-level panic] I can't!
Khan: [high-level panic] Where's the over-ride? The over-ride?
Kirk: Fire!

Unlike numerous DS9 and Voyager episodes in which aliens hijack the ship and can instantly and flawlessly pilot it, this scene shows that [i]training and experience actually count.

And Ricardo's breasts are real. And they're spectacular.


I gotta get to Walmart and buy the DVD.



and I'm positively glowing with all the praise for my earlier comments - seriously

av8rmike
09-26-2002, 09:12 AM
It'll always be my favorite of the series, probably because of how well it's written and all of the underlying themes. One of my favorite scenes is the one when Kirk visits Spock in his quarters before taking command. It's a little "talky," but it begins to raise many of the central issues of the story. Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the other way around? How will the characters deal with the unwinnable situation?

That being said, however, it's not perfect. It still suffers from many of the plot holes & technical issues as the rest of the series:

Why do the ships always meet on the same plane (except for the final battle)?
Why does Kirk not follow regulations and raise the shields? (Because otherwise there would be no movie)
Why does Scotty bring his mortally wounded nephew to the bridge instead of Sickbay?
Most importantly, where does the Genesis planet come from? The Carol Marcus video only shows the Device working on a lifeless planetoid. Can it turn any matter into a planet teeming with life, even interstellar matter, and furnish that planet with its own star? That never made a whole lot of sense to me.

Legomancer
09-26-2002, 09:50 AM
I like it best, but I have one minor quibble.

The whole "thinking in 2-D" thing would have been much cooler if, instead of just using space to sneak up behind Khan, Kirk had come at him for a completely different angle. I think it would have rocked to see the Enterprise completely coming from underneath.

And I'll get flamed for this, but I gotta say what's in my heart: The whole Spock's Death thing seemed way tacked on to me.

Vorae
09-26-2002, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by av8rmike
Why do the ships always meet on the same plane (except for the final battle)?
Why does Kirk not follow regulations and raise the shields? (Because otherwise there would be no movie)

Well...the answer to the first question is simply a matter of convention. If it matters to you, they did try to play with this in ST:TNG pre-production regarding their design of the Romulan Warbird, but it never took off (the idea, not necessarily the Warbird).

As for the second question, Kirk was already showing signs of "coasting" through his job, possible fatigue (aging, coping, etc.), and he made a tactical error. He chides himself for it afterword (paraphrasing): "I did nothing. Just got caught with my britches down. I must be going senile." It moves the plot, yes, but it's not outta nowhere.

The other two, yeah, those are big holes, but Trek is covered in 'em.

Kilt-wearin' man
09-26-2002, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by av8rmike
Why does Scotty bring his mortally wounded nephew to the bridge instead of Sickbay?
Most importantly, where does the Genesis planet come from? The Carol Marcus video only shows the Device working on a lifeless planetoid. Can it turn any matter into a planet teeming with life, even interstellar matter, and furnish that planet with its own star? That never made a whole lot of sense to me.[/list]

The first two questions have been handled, so I'll get these two.

Scotty just watched his nephew suffer horriffic burns in the engine room. I can understand how he would take the turbolift to the wrong deck (he'd be in mild shock at the time), and I can also see him wanting to go where most of his friends are for help.

The Genesis device used matter from the Mutara Nebula to create the planet and (possibly) to put more fissionable fuel in the star - a nebula would have at least one star within it to start with, wouldn't it? If its powerful enough to rebuild a planet, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to have it build one from a handy supply of matter just floating there looking pretty.

Knowed Out
09-26-2002, 04:00 PM
Interesting little factoid:

Montalban never met Shatner, Nimoy, or the rest of the E's crew during filming. All his parts (and his crew's) were shot in one time period, then the E crew came later and finished up.

No cite, just a documentary hosted by Nimoy I once saw.

Terminus Est
09-26-2002, 05:08 PM
Regardless of the other crew, at the very least Montalban met and acted with Walter Koenig. Remember, Khan put that space bug up Chekov's ear.

This brings to mind the following continuity gaffe. Khan appeared in the first season episode "Space Seed", while the character of Chekov was not introduced until the second season. So, how did Chekov know about the Botany Bay and Khan? Conversely, how did Khan recognize Chekov?

Tars Tarkas
09-26-2002, 05:17 PM
He was still below deck then. Yeah, that's the ticket!!

Dragonblink
09-26-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Terminus Est
So, how did Chekov know about the Botany Bay and Khan? Conversely, how did Khan recognize Chekov?

Well duh, Chekhov rented the video of "Space Seed" during one of the long stretches between the Enterprise's misadventures.

While the death of Spock seemed a little contrived to me too (so, he takes a Chef's hat off a pillar and this saves the Enterprise?), I like the duality it shows in Spocks character: his logical mind tells him what he should do, as the good of the many outweighs the good of the few, but his goodbye to Kirk is still emotionally moving.

Icerigger
09-26-2002, 06:27 PM
Well, Wrath is certainly the best trek film with First Contact close behind however I do have some nitpicks.

How did Khan and his gang overcome the crew of the Reliant and take control of the ship so quickly and more importantly how do they know how to operate it?

Why did the Reliant's sensors not detect Khan & co?

The Reliant did not notice that planets were missing form the system, did they loose their starcharts.

Once again the Enterprise is the only ship in the quadrant.

The movie gave me a let down from the episode Space Seed because that ended with a magnificent line and the promise of a future: "A world to win an Empire to Build". I guess not.:(

The Scrivener
09-26-2002, 06:50 PM
I'd never heard the urban myth about Montalban's chest, but I had wondered if it was just a prosthesis.

I just have to be the first to say it: had his chest been a fake job, you know it wouldn't have been standard-issue "foam rubber titties"....

Yep, it would have to have been skillfully handcrafted by master artisans out of nothing less than the finest, genuine...




...Corinthian leather [wth?]. Whatever the heck that is.

:)

JThunder
09-26-2002, 06:51 PM
Galaxy Quest was the best Star Trek movie, bar none.

Icerigger
09-26-2002, 06:55 PM
Lucky for Kahn the Reliant was still on Starfleet's "Crystal Key Program" I Like What They've Done to my Starship.......

KneadToKnow
09-26-2002, 07:54 PM
Galaxy Quest was the best Star Trek movie, bar none.
It has everything! Including Mrs. Allen's Best Friend!

Airman Doors, USAF
09-26-2002, 08:31 PM
I dig that movie for many reasons, but the one that stands out for me is the soundtrack.

That was, bar none, one of the finest instrumental soundtracks of all time. If you listen to it without watching the movie, you still feel as though you're there because the music conveys the scenes perfectly.

New & Improved Scott
09-27-2002, 12:59 AM
WoK also took the Enterprise to a place where it hadn't been before, the brink of destruction. It was exploding and the hull was ripped and on fire.

It was tossed around before, and the crew shaken, but never the horrible destruction it withstood in WoK. It became what usually came to Kirk's uniforms in the series, tattered, and a scar to show that Kirk had gone through a fight that he barely won.

lynn73
09-27-2002, 08:54 AM
I liked the movie, in fact I love Star Trek. When the Next Generation came out I never thought I could get to like it and refused to watch it. I finally started watching a few shows and now I love it. Of course, my husband isn't that crazy about it so I can't watch it all the time. When I go back and try to look at one of the old Star Trek shows with William Shatner it just doesn't seem to compare with the Next Generation. But I was nuts about it at the time I was watching it and love all the movies. There's a new Star Trek, Next Gen. movie coming out around December I think.

kingpengvin
09-27-2002, 11:21 AM
Best Kirk Scene Ever....

David: He Cheated

Kirk: I changed the conditions of the test. Got a commendation for original Thinking. I don't like to lose.

SAAVIK: Then you never faced that situation. Faced Death

KIRK: I don't believe in the no win scenario. Kirk to Spock it's been two hours are you ready

Spock: Right on Schedual Admiral

Kirk: All right(His delivery is better than it reads). I' don't like to lose.


Every time he says that I get a chill. The essence of Kirk is there. His inability to give up no matter what. His brazeness, his cheating to win. And yet his line near the end is a bitter restatement of the fact celibrated in the former scene.

"I haven't faced death. I've cheated death. I've tricked my way out of death and patted myself on the back for my ingenuity. I know nothing.


What a great film!!

msmith537
09-27-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Terminus Est
This brings to mind the following continuity gaffe. Khan appeared in the first season episode "Space Seed", while the character of Chekov was not introduced until the second season. So, how did Chekov know about the Botany Bay and Khan? Conversely, how did Khan recognize Chekov? [/B]

I would think that even in the 24th century, the hijacking of a warship would be newsworthy. Not to mention that at some point Checkov and the boys might be hanging out in the mess hall, drinking a few beers and talkin smack about how Kirk kicked Khans ass.

IIRC, Checkov seemed like he didn't quite place the name of the Botney Bay, at first, but he knew it was bad. That and you would have thought he would have remebered that Seti Alpha 5 was right next to Seti Alpha 6. Consistent with someone who maybe heard about Khan but didn't meet him.

Can't answer how Khan knew Checkov. Did he know him right away?

gobear
09-27-2002, 10:00 PM
But I was nuts about it at the time I was watching it and love all the movies. There's a new Star Trek, Next Gen. movie coming out around December I think.

Why, H4E, I do believe we have found common ground, for I, too, love Star Trek. The new film, Nemesis, looks like to be as awesome as First Contact was. Check out the newtrailer. (http://www.apple.com/trailers)

Pixellent
09-28-2002, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by msmith537
Can't answer how Khan knew Checkov. Did he know him right away?

There are several stories floating around about this gaffe. If you want someone to "blame" for it, you can lay it at the feet of Nick Meyer, the director, who also wrote the final draft of the screenplay that got on film, though he's not credited for it. (Why he isn't credited is a fascinating story in itself.) But although Meyer has acknowledged it's a mistake, he also doesn't think it's such a godawful crime against humanity, and neither do I. On the commentary track of the WRATH OF KHAN DVD, Meyer reminds us that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the creator of Sherlock Holmes, was guilty of a staggering number of continuity errors over the course of the Holmes stories (for example, Dr. Watson's war wound can't seem to make up its mind whether it's in his arm or his leg)... and he quotes Doyle as saying, "What matter, so long as I keep my readers?" Quite so.

Walter Koenig jokes that Chekov kept Khan waiting for the men's room for an unconscionably long time, which is why Khan never forgot him. He also claims that he came this close to pointing out to Nick Meyer that Chekov wasn't on the ship during Khan's first visit... and, realizing that he was about to risk getting his part reduced, kept his mouth shut. I don't blame him.

If you have to explain it somehow, if you just can't sleep nights wondering how the hell Khan and Chekov knew each other, you can always comfort yourself by assuming that Chekov was on the Enterprise during the events of "Space Seed," and was not yet a member of the bridge crew.... and that Khan ran into him in a scene we never got to see.

Fern Forest
09-28-2002, 06:57 PM
Or maybe he was part of the night shft bridge crew?

LurkMeister
09-29-2002, 12:51 AM
Another possible explanation for Khan knowing Chekov: Remember that when Khan was in Sickbay he was given access to the ship's computer so he could "catch up" on what had happened since he was put in cryosleep. He was able to use that access to get enough info on the ship to plan his takeover attempt (and let's not go into that monumental security breach), and it's not unreasonable to assume that he probably scanned the ship's records for crew information. If you're willing to accept the hypothesis that Chekhov was on the crew but just not seen on the show, then Khan might have remembered seeing him on the crew list; he did, after all, have total recall.

Potter
09-29-2002, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by gobear
Check out the newtrailer. (http://www.apple.com/trailers)

Ahh, yes. The new trailer which, with its choice of font, makes the phrase "final adventure" read like something completely different if you're not wearing your glasses...