The Washington Sniper: Sociopath, Psycho, Oxford Cloth Killer? Motivations, Profile?

[red_dragon60]

Is this person a wacko nutjob or are they sane, operating with ruthless efficiency? Do you think the sniper is crazy like Son Of Sam, a delusionaly shut-in who is recieving messages from God through his dog? Or is he sane, like Charlie Whitman, the sane but brutal sniper on the University Of Texas Tower? Do any of his actions point towards one or the other?

I very recently read this (http://www.9wusa.com/news/news_article.asp?storyid=10331), which says that the killer left a tarot card (Death) with the words "Dear Policemen: I am God." on it. That seems to rule out religious motivation in the sense that God was telling him to do it. He may be delusional and think that he is in fact God and is smiting sinners. It could be a red herring though.

What would the profile look like? I am guessing it to be a male in the late 20s who may read or watch fantasy themed entertainment. Probably a social maladroit. Someone on another board noted that he is probably not a military sniper, because then he would know to not leave shell casings like he did in the linked article. The rifle is a .223, and I don't know if the military uses such a caliber. It may be that the weapon is store-bought and not finely tuned.

What is your take on the killer?


Also, note on pronouns. I used 'he' in this post for continuity, but the killer may be female.

[Duck Duck Goose]

My opinion is that it isn't mere coincidence that this is happening the same week that Hannibal Part 3 opened.

Somebody's been planning this for a long time. :(

Also wanna point out that the authorities are cautioning that they don't have a clear link between the Tarot card and the shooter.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10/09/shootings.maryland/index.html
Sources said it is unclear whether the Tarot card is related to the shootings. The card represents death in the fortunetelling deck.

Authorities said the card could have been left by a prankster.

[drachillix]

Originally posted by red_dragon60
Someone on another board noted that he is probably not a military sniper, because then he would know to not leave shell casings like he did in the linked article.

Funny I would think millitary snipers would be less inclined to worry about ejected casings since they worry more about escape than tracing the weapon in question.

The rifle is a .223, and I don't know if the military uses such a caliber. It may be that the weapon is store-bought and not finely tuned.[/B]

FYI .223 or 5.56mm is the caliber used in M-16 and AR-15, it is a very common millitary caliber. .223 rifles for hunting are also widely available.

As far as the "not highly tuned" bit...uh most guns are capable of more accuracy than the average shooter right out of the box. Tuned would be for consistently placing small groupings of shots at probably 600+yards.

I dont know how far away this guy is shooting from but rifle shots over 300 yards even with a scope are a challenge for anyone without serious formal training or a helluva lot of talent not to mention icewater for blood.

[Llama Llogophile]

It's curious to me that we're not calling this an act of terrorism.

Whoever this freak is, they have everybody scared, they attack from the shadows, and we're all talking about it.

Sounds like a successful terrorist to me. Probably not the kind we've been obsessed with for the last year, but a terrorist all the same.

It's just interesting to me how we seem to have effortlessly made a distinction here: This is just a MURDERER - that's not the same thing...

[Rhum Runner]

Originally posted by Gassendi
Sounds like a successful terrorist to me. Probably not the kind we've been obsessed with for the last year, but a terrorist all the same.

It's just interesting to me how we seem to have effortlessly made a distinction here: This is just a MURDERER - that's not the same thing...
Terrorism is usually considered to have some kind of political overtones. Suicide bombers, for example, are not just killing people in cafes for no reason other than their own satisfaction. They believe, in their own way, that their actions will change a state's policies.

Bad guy killing people may equal terror in the community, but it is not terrorism.*

There are several other threads on this topic, one in MPSIMS on profiles, one in GQ on the .223 and rifles.

* If we find out later that this guy is doing this for political reasons then we might consider it to be terrorism.

[Beagle]

I was thinking about posting an amateur profiler thread. Instead, I'll just post my guesses here.

White male. Huge ego masking low self-esteem. Somewhat crazy but functional. A MD / VA local who really knows the area. Must be a damn good shot or good at camouflage and eluding. A .223 rifle is not small - and they are loud. The smallest one I can think of is a Thompson Contender (target pistol) - still damn large. Sneaking around with an AR-15 would be difficult.

Now the hard part, useful information. I would wager that it is a cop wannabe. Massive WAG: someone who applied to the police dept. and was turned down or someone who was fired. Or, I'm way off base.

I heard a guy on TV today saying that Vietnam special forces sometimes left death cards, FWIW. I somehow doubt that a vet. waited this long to snap.

[Apricot]

Is it said to be two people, a shooter and a driver. That's what's getting me, I'm thinking inadaquate perfectionist type. But where'd he get a friend?

[astro]

Tarot cards (in the US at least) are generally lower middle class and under class toys. Poor, psychotic, unemployed white male with gun fetish and "issues." Someone (probably his mother if alive) knows he is responsible.

[phouka]

*ahem*

Astro, Tarot cards are also used by a large number of neo-Pagans and are not considered toys by them.

If the shooter did leave the Death card from the major arcana of a tarot deck, he either knows absolutely nothing about the symbolism or he knows a whole lot and it could be a clue for law enforcement.

The Death card in tarot does not mean literal death. It is a metaphor for transformation - the abrupt change from one state into another. So . . .

a) he's an ignorant nutjob who thought a Death card looked cool and wanted to taunt the police.

b) he knows something about tarot and understands that Death =! death and is making some sort of psychological statement that the cops may or may not guess. (If they've got a criminal psychologist on board, I'm sure they'll have picked up on this.)

And as a collary of b), if the guy knows tarot, then a lot can be inferred from the particular deck he chose. Was it the Rider-Waite deck? Aleister Crowley's? The Aquarian? There are at least a hundred distinctly different kinds of decks, and each of them have their own stylized sense of symbolism.

My hope is that it's option A To me, laying down a tarot card without really understanding what it means speaks of someone with an over developed sense of ego. It means that he may get sloppy, which means he'll make mistakes, which means the police stand a chance of catching him sooner.

If it's option B, then law enforcement will have to work a heck of a lot harder to get into this guy's head. The metaphor of transformation implies that the shooter isn't doing this from the same motivation as a run-of-the-mill serial killer. He may have a specific mission and view himself as being a transforming force ("I am God"). He might even see himself as setting his victims free or transforming them into something other than ordinary human beings.

I've got to stop typing. I'm creeping myself out. :shiver:

[Sam Stone]

Sounds to me like a guy who reads a lot of Soldier of Fortune and is picking up the trappings of a special forces sniper in order to make himself look like a big man. The death card thing can be found in every Vietnam novel out there.

The AR-15 is not a particularly good choice for a sniper weapon, nor is the .223 a particularly good cartridge for it. If this guy is using an AR-15, it's because he like being the kind of guy who snipes with an AR-15.

[Abe]

So, is there more or less a consensus that this psycho is a homegrown American? When I heard about the first few shootings the first thing that came to mind was that this was a diversionary tactic to draw attention away from elsewhere, perhaps from some act of terrorism currently being organized. I thought that because the shootings are obviously planned and carried out carefully, yet there seems to be no motive or agenda other than wanton random killing. So either someone has snapped and is using method in his madness, or someone is making as much trouble as he can to focus the attention of the authorities on attempts to locate him.

The whole tarot card thing (if it is not a prank or a joke) is quite juvenile. I am ignorant of their use in the military, but right away it does suggest the demographic groups that would normally be concerned with Tarot, i.e. as was pointed out earlier, lower-middle class and below. I think a Pagan would leave behind something more appropriate to his credo if he wanted to leave behind anything.

[Abe]

So, is there more or less a consensus that this psycho is a homegrown American? When I heard about the first few shootings the first thing that came to mind was that this was a diversionary tactic to draw attention away from elsewhere, perhaps from some act of terrorism currently being organized. I thought that because the shootings are obviously planned and carried out carefully, yet there seems to be no motive or agenda other than wanton random killing. So either someone has snapped and is using method in his madness, or someone is making as much trouble as he can to focus the attention of the authorities on attempts to locate him.

The whole tarot card thing (if it is not a prank or a joke) is quite juvenile. I am ignorant of their use in the military, but right away it does suggest the demographic groups that would normally be concerned with Tarot, i.e. as was pointed out earlier, lower-middle class and below. I think a Pagan would leave behind something more appropriate to his credo if he wanted to leave behind anything.

[Abe]

So, is there more or less a consensus that this psycho is a homegrown American? When I heard about the first few shootings the first thing that came to mind was that this was a diversionary tactic to draw attention away from elsewhere, perhaps from some act of terrorism currently being organized. I thought that because the shootings are obviously planned and carried out carefully, yet there seems to be no motive or agenda other than wanton random killing. So either someone has snapped and is using method in his madness, or someone is making as much trouble as he can to focus the attention of the authorities on attempts to locate him.

The whole tarot card thing (if it is not a prank or a joke) is quite juvenile. I am ignorant of their use in the military, but right away it does suggest the demographic groups that would normally be concerned with Tarot, i.e. as was pointed out earlier, lower-middle class and below. I think a Pagan would leave behind something more appropriate to his credo if he wanted to leave behind anything.

[HPL]

I've been considering the theory both might be to throw the cops off.

There is the possibility, due to the fact he has been very good about not leaving evidence so far and not being seen, for that matter, that perhaps he is somewhat intelligent. The Death Card and catridge could be intentionatly left there as a way to taunt and throw the cops off, make them think he's some kind of nutjob(Okay, he is a nutjob, but I'm thinking hannible lector vs. something more obvious). It's not particulary hard to prevent any cartridges from being dropped(don't cycle another round if non-semi-auto, or brass catcher if semi-auto), so the fact he left it means he doesn't care, is a complete idiot(unlikely in light of what we've seen), or put it there to make the cops look for a .223(when he could be using a .222 or something).

I'm not saying this is what is happening, but throwing it out as a theory.

If it is true, it makes me think less of his intelligence. I wouldn't be leaving any kind of evidence around that would help someone find/convict me, if I could help it. I definatly wouldn't be providing a sample of my handwriting.

[Sam Stone]

When I heard about the Tarot card, I thought they had some hard evidence linking it to the killer. But now I hear they just found it in the area a couple of days later? Is that correct? If so, I'd say it's better than 50/50 that some prankster dropped it there.

In which case, all bets are off as to who's doing it.

[d_redguy]

Apricot wrote:
Is it said to be two people, a shooter and a driver. That's what's getting me, I'm thinking inadaquate perfectionist type. But where'd he get a friend?

Where did you read this one? I'd like to see it. If it is more than one person, it seems to me that it would be an implication of terrorism, no? I mean, your typical homegrown All-American psycho-killer (cue Talking Heads - sorry :rolleyes: ), historically speaking, tends to be a loner. But a joint effort would point more toward organization of some sort. Just because this isn't typical terrorism doesn't mean that it isn't.

Just speculation on my part (obviously)...YMMV

[Apos]

The leaking of the Tarot card was very stupid, and the investigators are rightly pissed at whomever leaked it, be it a legitimate lead or not. The way the media is playing the card up is sort of sickening in and of itself.

One interesting pattern: many of the shootings shared a proximity to "Michaels crafts stores." What the heck does that mean?

The interesting thing is that, unless the police are keeping it secret, we've had no contact from this guy, outside of the possible Tarot card. That's particularly weird given that he had a big clump of shootings in the beggining and is now working only sporadicaly. You'd think that after making a big entrance, he'd take his spree somewhere other than more here-and-there shootings. Even if the Tarot card is real, it just doesn't seem quite right: especially if it's two guys (as the latest shooting tonight seems to confirm).

Finally, anyone read this TIME story? That last paragraph kind of weirded me out...
http://www.cnn.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,362637,00.html?cnn=yes
"We don't know anything for sure about the killer's state of mind, but chances are he's enjoying himself enormously."

Uh... good for him. At least SOMEONE is getting something good out of all this...

[Apos]

For the two man thing, check the CNN on the latest attack (the one at the gas station). If these are the guys, someone is driving, someone is shooting. Mobile command post. Makes sense. And yes, it does up the possibility of terrorism.

I would say that the fact that the killer/killers have slowed down their attack frequency also speaks to them not being run of the mill crazies. It could just be good strategy: when the police are alerted to your MO, you'd best cut down on your attacks to make them harder to predict, if not stop them entirely for a bit. Worse, that they've done this means that these guys don't really fit the general spree or serial model consistently: neither cooling off to savor kills, nor pulling off lots at once.

It certainly would be a good terrorist methodology. You can't build a really big bomb easily: getting the material has become too hard: too conspicuous. Suicide bombings often have unpredictable levels of kills, and besides: why kill yourself when you can live to kill another day. Using rifles in the U.S. is basically a weapon of opportunity: they are both really really common but also rarely used in crimes compared to handguns, and so have gotten far less scrutiny and tracking data. The only really dumb thing is using the same car more than once, if the previous sighting was related.

If this latest killing is connected, it'll be the third at a gas station.

[reprise]

I've really tried to avoid this issue over the last 10 days. I've seen people second-guessing this sniper since day one; I've seen the media buying into this media trip all the way along the line.

FWIW, this is happening in real time and criminology happens to be my major.

There is NOTHING, but nothing, magical about how we put together a profile.

I also don't give a shit about what you've read or heard, we are NOT mind readers.

My "gut instinct" a couple of days after this started happening was that this person would eventually make contact with either the police or the media. There is nothing "magical" whatsoever about my drawing that conclusion.

You'd better believe that he is taunting you, but there are certain things about his MO which reveal probabilities about him (and I do not use the term "him" lightly - if the perpertrator of these crimes is a woman, then I'll abandon criminology as a career).

Very arrogant. Not just military, but either a member of one of the "elite" branches of the military or a member of one of the very highly trained branches of the civilian militia.

I'm inclined to think NOT "elite military" because I have some idea of just how closely "ex-members" of elite military corps are watched.

The killings to date have been formulaic. The sniper has relied on the confusion at the crime scene. He's probably extremely good looking and - more importantly - extremely well dressed.

He is not acting alone in this. I don't mean that a group of people are taking random shots at innocent people with the same gun. I mean that what he has done is known within his own "community".

He probably does not present as "poor" or "uneducated" - he displays a certain kind of methodical thinking which narrows the field in respect of his military history.

I really don't blame the police who are working this case for getting the shits with everyone.

This guy is always gonna play mind games with those who seek to capture him, but unless the police are totally stupid or are attempting to with-hold more than half of the evidence, the Tarot card as reported in the media isn't "it". He's more subtle than that. He want you to KNOW how intellectually superior he is, and a Tarot card doesn't fit with his perception of "sophistication".

The profile I've formed over the last week would not come down to a "simple" Tarot card; and most certainly NOT the Death card (which has little to do with literal death, but mostly to do with rebirth).

This game is about intellectual superiority. This person WILL leave more and more clues - because he wants his "cleverness" acknowledged", but they won't be the "right" clues.

There's a heck of a lot more I want to say about this person. Not because I'm psychic but because one of the first things they teach us in criminology is that in the absence of total insanity there is ALWAYS an explanation for the evidence people leave behind.

I've drawn my own conclusions about this person by the very fact that cartridges have been found at some of the crime scenes.

Some of the stuff the media are saying right now scares the shit out of me because if the profile I've put together for this person is even 50% right, those kinds of news reports will only encourage his self-gratification fantasies. And this is ALL about ego and control.

[deball]

Here's a humble little opinion on one aspect of the case.

I think this guy is getting way too much credit as some kind of highly trained assassin. Marine infantrymen can pick off targets at 500 yards with a high rate of accuracy, with a .223 and no scope. Most deer hunters who spend some time at the range can make a 100 yard killing shot with no problem. I shot "expert" in the Navy, hitting 40 of 40 at ranges up to 300 meters with .223 and two days practice. It wasn't like I was a SEAL or something.

This guy seems to be shooting targets of opportunity. Set up the gun, wait for something to walk into your target path, and shoot. Or, park the car, open the door and shoot at close range. If that's what he's doing.

Equating him to an elite military sniper, is probably what this friggin twisted screw has been wanting people to do his whole life. I certainly won't give him that kind of credit. After all, he did miss once, and thankfully two of his victims survived.

My vote goes for militia nut, or military drop-out.

[TwistofFate]

one cartridge was left at a crime scene (the 13 year old boy).

I think the killer slipped up with this. The added pressure on the killer to stay anonymous led to more pressure at the time of the shooting, and the killer forgot to collect the cartridge after the shot.

If it was a muzzled rifle shot, its not really necessary for there to be 2 people.

I'm thinking it it the work of 2 nut jobs with no agenda to prove other than the fact they get off on the media analysis of who they are.

for those who think that it is a distraction from a bigger plot, bear in mind one thing. How is an increased alertness by the Police Force and the Public going to remove attention from shady behaviour? if anything, it would only make things harder.

[minty green]

Nothing at all in the CNN story indicates there were two people in that van, and there is certainly no necessity to have a separate driver and shooter. People are seriously overestimating how difficult these shots are. A hunting rifle with a properly aligned scope would make this shot a piece of cake at 100 yards.

Park. Wait for target. Roll down window. Shoot. Drive away.

No second person necessary.

[divemaster]

Well, I hope they catch this guy soon, because my wife is scared to leave the house. We recently moved from the Aspen Hill area (about 2 blocks from where a couple of last week's shootings occurred), and my wife often shopped at that Michael's store.

Now, we live in Manassas.

I passed the crime scene on my way to work this morning. It is at one of the busiest intersections in the Manassas area. I haven't read the newspaper account yet, but someone could have shot from a vehicle at the intersection and immediately made his way to the I-66 entrance ramp. But no one saw anything enough to get a tag number? There must have been at least 50 potential eyewitnesses within sight of the Sunoco station at 8:00. At least.

Profile? My guess falls along what has already been mentioned by some. I, too, am surprised that this seems like a tandem. My mental image of a sniper/spree killer is of the dissaffected loner acting out in a powerful way to compensate for social impotence.

The Tarot card seems like a red herring to me. If it is not, and the Police consider it an important clue, the last thing I want to do is read about it in the paper! The police should keep "calling card" clues like this under wraps so they can tell if future killings are tied to the same guy and not a copycat.

The killer may have an ego and want to establish a connection (even if in his mind it is a way to toy with the police). Cat and mouse. If so, they should let him, because it could eventually be his undoing. The press should respect this.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

The Tarot card was found near a middle school. So, some semi-nihilistic 13 year old might have gotten it into his empty, rattling head to plant it there just after the shooting, because he thought it was "cool".

Doesn't have to be connected at all.

[Randle P.]

Our man (and yes, I'm pretty sure it's a man) is probably between thirty and forty years of age, white, and ex-military. Maybe a Gulf War vet. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the renewed hostilities with Iraq were some kind of trigger if that's the case.

The tarot card is probably some dumb prank being pulled by a Goth kid who wanted to get on the news. The D.C. sniper is smarter than that ... he's a mass murderer, not a serial killer, and that's an important distinction to make. The only pattern to his choice of victim is a lack of one. There's no rhyme or reason to these crimes. It's thrillkilling, plain and simple. There's no cry for help. Unlike the traditional serial killer, he doesn't want to be caught. But he likes taunting the cops anyway.

There's no way leaving the shells behind was a mistake. You don't commit six murders in seven days, most in broad daylight, and get away without a single strong witness stepping forward unless you're very, very smart and very clean. The shells are his calling card.

This is all assuming it's one guy. From what it sounds like, it could be two, which is even scarier. Might be some kind of weird competition thing.

In any event, I hope they catch this guy soon. My girlfriend's mom and younger brothers live in Maryland, and they're pretty freaked.

[minty green]

There is no more evidence for two killers than there is for eight. As for leaving behind a shell, the only shooting where that apparently occurred was the middle school, where photos of police investigating the crime scene show them searching a leaf-covered spot in the woods. If the shooter set up in that outside area instead of a vehicle, and if the weapon is semi-automatic instead of bolt action, the shell would have been ejected and easily missed by someone in a hurry to get out of the area.

[Latro]

This would suggest a bolt-action rifle, as you would expect more cartridges to have been found with an automatic.
Which, in turn, would leave one to think that it was left intentionally.

[The Ace of Swords]

One of the problems with backseat profiling is the inability to qualify what is first-hand, accurate information, and what is rumor that has belatedly reached us. Profiling involves taking the most tenuous of clues and deduction; false clues will wreck that.

On that score, I find it highly dubious that there are two shooters; the victims are chosen at random, which implies an asocial loner who cares not for human life. For my money, the accomplice theory is wrong; who would chauffer a cold blooded killer of random humanity?

Here is a list of the victims; randomly chosen; children not excepted. Suppose you were both a sociopath and a megalomaniac. Who might you not shoot? Most people have highest empathy with those who look like themselves. Might that be why no young men have been fired at?

The Tarot Card could easily be a prank; but according to the press, it was found at the school where the boy was shot – an extremely sociopathic prank, if it is one – and it had a private message to police instructing them not to reveal it; it leaked out; someone else was shot at a gas station.

A gas station, a gas station; who was the list of where these people were shot? I see several parking lots and gas stations; all road targets, perhaps something you could drive up to and fire from the van.

But why has no one heard or seen the shooter? I think he’s firing from the van itself. Imagine one of those 60’s vans with an open window, and a sniper’s nest built into it. Fires, closes the window or door, and drives off. If that’s his shell, he must have left it.

The shell and the card speak, to me, at least, not of Vietnam era books, but of watching too many serial killer movies. “Death leaves a calling card.” What better calling card than Death from a tarot deck?

White male, 19-35; Recently ejected militia-nut or military wipe-out; No hobbies besides guns and FPS; Gun hobbiest, probably went to gun shows; talented craftsman; owns power tools; loner, misanthropist; social and sexual failure; probably hired a hooker right before the spree; no superego, highly inflated ego, low self-esteem; feels owed by the world. Probably fought with his neighbors. Abandoned by one or both of his parents; didn’t go to college; barely could bother to finish high school owing to his truancy. Writes personal fiction for himself. Possible military fiction writer online. Connection with Iraq is ???

[minty green]

Latro: If the guy has been shooting from inside a vehicle, you wouldn't find any shells at the scene even if they're automatically ejected. They'd be in the vehicle, no?

Regardless, there's no basis to conclude whether the gun is semi-automatic or bolt-action.

[Apos]

---There is no more evidence for two killers than there is for eight.---

Well, gee, all except for witness accounts of "two men" in a white vehicle driving away from the scene of the crime in the latest case. Could be connected, could not be, but it at least ties in with one of the other killings. No one said that two men were required: rather that this is what some witnesses have reported.

---This would suggest a bolt-action rifle, as you would expect more cartridges to have been found with an automatic.---

The person is also firing only one kill shot each time: no need for an auto, or even to cycle out the round.

[Apos]

I take that back: looks like the police are backing away from that claim: "Authorities backed away from an initial state police report that two white males were seen in a white van near the scene."

Of course, that they say this now was no reason to pretend the information wasn't being given out before.

[minty green]

And I retract my earlier comment that there was nothing in the CNN story re: two men. That detail is in the current version, although the source of the report appears to be something from last week, not last night. I'd still be greatly surprised if more than one person were involved.

[Apos]

I'd turn around my conditional probability thing: if it's terrorism, then two men would be the way to go: one guy to set up for the shot, the other to scan the set up area to make sure that no one is close enough to hear the muffled shot and pinpoint its location. If this isn't terrorism, then it's very likely just one guy.

I agree that there doesn't need to be two guys: these aren't hard shots: at a hundred feet, I could definately make them with a bow and arrow (without being anywhere near as deadly), let alone a nice modern rifle. What's strange is that no one saw anything: that would take at least some thought on the part of this guy (perhaps at least planning out what spots to use ahead of time during his spree period?), and psychos don't normally think that straight.

[Darwin's Finch]

I'm not sure why some folks seem to think the one shell casing found was intentionally left. In all but one case, it appears the shooter was firing from a vehicle, thus, no lingering shells would be left lying around. In the one case where it appears the shooter was outside lying in wait, a shell was found. It could very well just be slop on the part of the killer. Overconfidence, and all that. One might very well find the van (or whatever vehicle is being used) littered with the shells from the previous shootings, if/when this guy is caught (and heck, maybe him cleaning out his vehicle will be what finally brings him down...).

My vote is for "crafty", but not a criminal mastermind of any sort. More a hunter-type, than some elite special forces kinda guy. He'll screw up sooner or later (if he hasn't already).

[red_dragon60]

Originally posted by Latro
This would suggest a bolt-action rifle, as you would expect more cartridges to have been found with an automatic.
Which, in turn, would leave one to think that it was left intentionally.

Something occured to me that would point to the opposite. An automatic or semiautomatic rifle ejects the shell once it is fired. However, a bolt-action or single-action rifle keeps the casing in until it is broken out. This character makes one shot. If he is confident of his skills, he doesn't eject the cartridge to take another shot. Makes me think it's an AR-15 more than an Olympic rifle.

[Paul in Qatar]

Two things srike me as quite odd.

First off the idea there is a shooter and a driver. What does this mean? A team of terrorists? An abused wife? A couple of equally nutted-out partners?

Next, at least one shot (at the schoolkid) was from a nearby wood. This implies some super-duper local knowledge. Did he go to school there? How did he get something like an M16 into the wood? Did he preposition it?

The Death card is interesting as it implies that the bad guys want to communicate (although they themselves may not know it). This indicates he (they) are not professional terrorists. It points toward the social-defective idea.

Of course he could get away scott-free if he threw the rifle into the river and went to Vegas for a few weeks. Strangely, nutters never seem to do this.

[HPL]

Originally posted by minty green
Latro: If the guy has been shooting from inside a vehicle, you wouldn't find any shells at the scene even if they're automatically ejected. They'd be in the vehicle, no?

Regardless, there's no basis to conclude whether the gun is semi-automatic or bolt-action.

Actually, you can by brass catchers to put on a semi-rifle. Keeps spent cartridges from getting all over the floor. Really nice if you are asked to clean up after yourself at the range, or recycle the brass for handloading.

[InRepair]

From the "huh...how about that?" department:

About five or so years ago, the television drama "Homicide," which took place in Baltimore, Maryland, mind you, featured a two-part episode in which a sniper held the city hostage in exactly the same way, with exactly the same results (people afraid to leave their houses, windows being boarded up, etc.). Instead of tarot cards, though, he would leave games of hangman sketched in chalk on the ledges of the towers, buildings, etc. from which he would shoot his victims and would strike at exact eight-hour intervals. I recall at the time many fans scoffing at the idea of a such a killer, that "Homicide" had strayed into the sensationalistic. Now "Sniper (pts.1&2)" seems more prescient than anything. By the way, once the killer finally solved his hangman puzzle (the word was "e-r-o-m-i-t-l-a-B"), he commited suicide............only to have a copycat resume his work eight hours later. The way I see it, both are very real possibilities (the suicide and the torch being passed to a copycat) in regards to today's real-life situation, as well.

[HPL]

Originally posted by Paul in Saudi
Two things srike me as quite odd.

First off the idea there is a shooter and a driver. What does this mean? A team of terrorists? An abused wife? A couple of equally nutted-out partners?

Next, at least one shot (at the schoolkid) was from a nearby wood. This implies some super-duper local knowledge. Did he go to school there? How did he get something like an M16 into the wood? Did he preposition it?


That's why it makes me think it isn't an ugly gun. An AR-15 and M-16 look exactly the same from a distance, and someone sneaking around with one is somewhat conspicious (particulary in MD). A guy with a hunting rifle would be much less noticable then a guy who was carrying an ugly gun, (or as the media loves to call it "assualt weapon")

[IndependentVoter]

I know this part of Maryland, and anyone openly carrying ANY kind of gun is going to stick out like a sore thumb.

A couple of thoughts:

A profesionally trained sniper would not be using a .223 caliber round. Gun nuts like to bitch about how underpowered this round is and how it lacks stopping power.

A professionally trained sniper would probably have a custom crafted bolt-operated rifle. If the shell casing is from him, I tend to think that he is using a semi-automatic.

If a profesionally trained sniper went psycho, I would expect him to showcase his training. As some people already mentioned, these shots were all baby shots. The average person could have made them. I would expect an "elite" sniper to be pulling off head shots from 600+ yards.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't rememeber the "death" card in the vietnam books as being a tarot card. I thought it was an ace of spades that had been printed to have the patch of a specific unit printed on the front.

I've wondered if the shooting of the kid was a copycat killing since the MO seemes different.

My Wag on things we don't really know:

No way this guy is an ex-anything that is considered elite.

If there are two people involved, then I'm betting on an Islamic angle. I've always thought this would be an effective, cheap and easy method for them to use here.

Of course the guy loves the attention. Regardless of his/their motivations, he's not killing people and stuffing them in a closet.

I'm betting on the wanna-be type. Maybe he was a regular cop or soldier and was rejected (or failed out of training) in his attempt to join a Swat team or whatever other "elite" team that is out there. Or maybe he was rejected while trying to just be a regular cop or soldier.

I'm betting the motivation is a little bit of revenge directed at those who rejected him, and this is his way of showing that they made a mistake.

[ready29003]

There is a good graphic of all the killings (so far) at this page:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/daily/oct02/snipershootings.htm

I was thinking about this while listening on the radio and looked up the times and dates of all the killings. He takes the weekend’s off. I find that interesting. For some reason it gives me the impression that the killer is married.

The killings are all during the week, he kills in the morning, and then sometimes after 9pm…so I am guessing he has a job from about 10 am to 4 or 5 at night. He kills before and after work, but on the weekends he is home with his wife.

Just my hunch. I think he is married and living a seriously double life.

[Apos]

---I was thinking about this while listening on the radio and looked up the times and dates of all the killings. He takes the weekend’s off. I find that interesting. For some reason it gives me the impression that the killer is married.---

A picture forms... perhaps he was fired from his job, and can't admit it to his wife, and so spends his time killing people. However, he has killed most recently at night, hasn't he? Wife out playing Bingo?

---Maybe it's just me, but I don't rememeber the "death" card in the vietnam books as being a tarot card.---

Koko. As I walk through the valley of darkness, I will fear no evil, because I'm the craziest son-of-a-bitch in the valley. She came out of the screams the way birds come out of the clouds.

[Sam Stone]

Something I've been thinking about today...

A white van keeps being seen in the area. Now, would a killer this cautious use the same, highly visible van for each shooting? By now, I'd think that anyone seeing a white van would be pretty careful, and the tag number would get picked up pretty quickly. Doesn't fit the MO of this guy.

A white van was stopped after leaving the scene of the last shooting, but the police decided it was the wrong one since no evidence was found.

So here's what I'm thinking... What if the person/people in the white van are spotters/decoys? I don't know the geography of the area, but is it possible that it's going down like this:


Shooter positions himself 300-500 yards away, in a very secluded spot.
Accomplices in van move in closer, look for police, and prepare to act as blockers/decoys
After getting the clear from the van, the shooter takes out innocent person.
white van speeds away from scene in a very visible manner, drawing all eyes to it. Not really worried about being stopped by police, since there is absolutely no evidence of a connection.
Shooter quietly and cautiously withdraws from the scene


Is this possible? Does anyone know if these locations have a 'likely' close shooting position (i.e. the van), but also a less likely long-distance shot?

[litost]

One thing I noticed is that the victims are white, black, hispanic and indian, both old and young. This either suggests he is going for whoever is the best target implying he is possibly not a conceited sniper, OR, he is consciously picking on varied people to increase the randomness thus increasing the terror and confusing the investigation.

[kambuckta]

Now, tell me to piss off if I am out of line here, but this thread disturbs me somewhat. Speculating as to the motivations of this person/persons?, while seemingly innocent enough, may in fact serve to perpetuate the very activities we condemn.

Apart from the mass-media coverage, this person may well be 'Googling' for reference to his crimes, and coming across a messageboard such as ours could perhaps feed his insanity even more. Imagine his egotistical delight in finding a heap of people from all around the world talking about him!! Could this perhaps spur him on? I dunno, it just doesn't feel right to me......:confused: Especially the 'profiling' nature of the thread.....if it was just a thread about how horrible the deeds are, then it might be a bit different. This is just a gut-feeling here, and I cannot back it with evidence of any kind. But after reading the posts, it hit me that if the perp was reading them too, he'd be feeling proud of his noteriety.

[reprise]

I read a rather scathing statement this morning, kambuckta, from the police chief in charge of the investigation. He's very pissed off with former profilers making statements to the media about what the FBI profilers working on the case would be looking for and what conclusions they might have drawn. He all but called them has-beens who're looking to claim some of the spotlight (the Tarot card information was not meant to be made public).

That said, the mass media is currently serving up a banquet of notoriety - so I wouldn't be too concerned about discussions taking place on this or other messageboards.

This person(s) is out to terrorise Mr and Mrs Public, but the endgame is outwitting those charged with law enforcement - both the victims and the media are only pawns to be used to that end.

I'm always somewhat amazed by what information does make it into the media in the US while crimes are still under investigation, but I'm not sure that in the long run it will be a bad thing in this particular instance. I suspect this person(s) will establish more personal contact with either a senior law enforcement official or a senior news person (possibly even both) relatively soon, and every contact (no matter how incidental) provides a little bit more information.

I'd be extremely surprised if this person (using the singular in this instance because even if there's more than one shooter, the basic plan has been formed by one person) fits the legal criteria for "insanity" though kambuckta.

[reprise]

Incidentally, has anyone seen any reports of which Tarot the card was from (I'm inclined to believe it was left for dramatic flair rather than any true symbolism, but it would be interesting to know whether it's from one of the more obscure decks).

[kambuckta]

Reprise, I wasn't using the word 'insanity' as a classification in my post...more just to suggest that the perpetrator may be 'getting off' on the publicity. I agree totally that he may well be 'sane' in the legal sense of the word, but I still doubt whether anyone who can commit such senseless acts of evil can be considered sane by 'everymans' standard. What is being done is bloody crazy....whether he is technically insane is another matter altogether.

[HPL]

Originally posted by IndependentVoter


A profesionally trained sniper would not be using a .223 caliber round. Gun nuts like to bitch about how underpowered this round is and how it lacks stopping power.



Actually, being a little bit more intimate with the gun nut community, the .223 as an effective round is still a topic of constant debate, even 30 years after vietnam.

At least in the circles I'm with.

[reprise]

In some ways kambuckta, thrill killers exhibit a high degree of sanity and it's one of the traits which makes it so hard to catch them. They tend to have no emotional investment in their choice of victims and so - unlike with serial killers - victimology is of little use in the investigation.

I think everyone's big fear about this particular case is that we could be dealing with someone who has been trained to kill stealthily and dispassionately, rather than with someone who has simply turned their weapons skills to human targets; there are certainly some indications that this person has a high degree of familiarity with the kinds of clues law enforcement officials will be looking for (that doesn't mean he's an "insider", but it probably does mean that he's fairly well read).

[Lala S.]

There is certainly nothing funny about this situation but I've read two really amusing conspiracy theories on it over the past week. One theory holds that since some of the Sept. 11 hijackers lived in Bowie, MD for a time, the sniper(s) must be "leftover" Al-Quaida (sp?) guys trying to make their mark. The second theory is that yesterday's shooting was faked by the police to try to piss off/drive the sniper(s) to some kind of rash action that will lead to their capture. Hee.

[Daoloth]

Originally posted by Beagle

I heard a guy on TV today saying that Vietnam special forces sometimes left death cards, FWIW. I somehow doubt that a vet. waited this long to snap.

Special Forces apparently have a history, at least dating back until then, with leaving cards at the scene of their actions. At a botched raid in Afghanistan early this year, where some 14 Afghans were killed by US Spec Ops, a US soldier left behind a note with something written on to it akin to, "Hope You Enjoyed It- US Soldier."

Given that four Afghan War veterans have killed their wives and/or themselves shortly after returning, it makes you wonder about their mental stability.

[litost]

[hijack based on previous post]
Interestingly, on a visit to weeklystandard.com, I noticed a poll on who the public think the sniper is. An overwhelming 90% thought it was Al-Qaeda or a lone pyschopath. "Retired Vet" and "Militia Nut" (the most common hypothesis in this board) gets around 10% of the vote [end hijack]

[jayjay]

Reprise:

If the card they showed on the news the other day was the card (which is not certain since it wasn't meant to be made public in the first place), it looked like Rider-Waite.

It could very easily have just been a "go out and find a deck of Tarot cards so we have some kind of graphic for the 6:00 report..." thing.

[Daoloth]

Hmm...this is a slight tangent, but:

I feel the sniper may do a completely brash and daring attack soon. Why? Because most news websites, for one, aren't carrying sniper news as the main item. It's all focused on the Bali bombing. This has also caused some shift on the broadcasted news, as well. If this maniac wants attention, he may really start going for the big kills, so to say, now.

[Brutus]

Originally posted by Daoloth


Special Forces apparently have a history, at least dating back until then, with leaving cards at the scene of their actions. At a botched raid in Afghanistan early this year, where some 14 Afghans were killed by US Spec Ops, a US soldier left behind a note with something written on to it akin to, "Hope You Enjoyed It- US Soldier."

Given that four Afghan War veterans have killed their wives and/or themselves shortly after returning, it makes you wonder about their mental stability.

Kill cards are nothing new. Regular grunts in WW2 used them. Nothing particularily 'special forces' about them.

[Brutus]

Originally posted by Sam Stone
Something I've been thinking about today...

A white van keeps being seen in the area. Now, would a killer this cautious use the same, highly visible van for each shooting? By now, I'd think that anyone seeing a white van would be pretty careful, and the tag number would get picked up pretty quickly. Doesn't fit the MO of this guy.

A white van was stopped after leaving the scene of the last shooting, but the police decided it was the wrong one since no evidence was found.

So here's what I'm thinking... What if the person/people in the white van are spotters/decoys? I don't know the geography of the area, but is it possible that it's going down like this:


Shooter positions himself 300-500 yards away, in a very secluded spot.
Accomplices in van move in closer, look for police, and prepare to act as blockers/decoys
After getting the clear from the van, the shooter takes out innocent person.
white van speeds away from scene in a very visible manner, drawing all eyes to it. Not really worried about being stopped by police, since there is absolutely no evidence of a connection.
Shooter quietly and cautiously withdraws from the scene


Is this possible? Does anyone know if these locations have a 'likely' close shooting position (i.e. the van), but also a less likely long-distance shot?


I like your scenario. I would cut down the ranges some (due to extreme fragmentation, I'd go with 175-250 meters or so), but it is a clever plan, which would befit this evil, yet clever, shooter.

[Lamar Mundane]

I have considered Sam Stone's theory as well. If true, then this is likely a terrorist scenario rather than a psycho nut-job, as getting that sort of cooperation doesn't fit with the profile of any historical mass-muderers.

My theory is that this guy chooses places where delivery vans are commonplace (Home Depot, Michaels, gas stations) and waits for one to show up, then fires. I can't imagine that someone who has managed to pull this off and remain at large for this long would actually be using the same vehicle at all these places.

I should also say that I feel rather creepy just speculating about this.

[ready29003]

I think putting our heads together, using our collective knowledge of ballistics (which i have none), mass murderers, human psycology, tactics, and investigation, is an extremely healthy discourse. It could be therapeutic to those horrified and disturbed by the events.

It is far more satisfying than simply listening to expert after expert prognosticate on the event on TV.

Heck, if the FBI and police were really clever, they would start a totally voluntary online club for amateur investigators to help analyze crime seen evidence. They could perform criminal background checks on anyone who wanted to join, possibly give the members access to evidence not made public, and let the power of a hard working intelligent group of people help them solve the case and pursue leads.

Open source crime scene investigation.... Anyways, they say they have some strong evidence from the latest shooting...we shall see.

[Mac Guffin]

What then of this article that appears in the worldnet daily?http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29298

Long story short, The police are suppressing the descriptions they have received of the sniper(s) due to the panic that might arise, as the descriptions are of "Hispanic," "Middle-Eastern," "olive-skinned" and "dark-skinned" person or persons doing the shooting.

I know that that is pretty vague, but what if?

[deball]

I have a second bunch of theories, and they're totally left field from my militia nut theory.

Two people. One drives, one shoots. They may switch on different killings. They have at least two older delivery trucks, and other personal vehicles.

Highly thought-out killings. The plan for location, they spend the weekend scouting places and rehearsing the scenario in their normal passenger cars. Over the next week they put the plan in motion. When the occasion comes, it's just a matter of who is standing in the wrong spot. If nobody is there, they don't always give up the plan. Sometimes they shoot the next nearest target. They make their escape as planned, ditch the van/truck in a pre-rented safe location and drive home in their passenger car/s. Later, they come back and use the van/truck for the next killing in the vicinity. For the most part it's Van=Northern Va., Truck=Md. They have at least two safe-houses/garages.

They have been planning this for some time before starting. They practiced shooting, familiarized themselves with the roads, rented or bought hiding space for the vehicles, learned the police codes on the scanner.

The first killings came in a wave to draw attention, but the real agenda is to create a sense of fear, powerlessness and frustration with the authorities. They don't announce themselves as members of an organization or cause, because that would be counter-productive to their agenda. The fear is in the not knowing who these guys are or what they want.

Like I said, left field.

Irregardless, these latest shootings are all around my house, and my favorite gas station is in a plaza parking lot with a Michael's! BFG is becoming a constant companion, and he would love to drill the bastard(s) a new airhole.

[kambuckta]

Sorry, didn't read the link, but did read your post and exposition.....whaddya mean, What if?. What if what? What if the persons involved had 'tanned skin'? That includes an awful lot of people, like, most of the worlds' population, if you get what I mean. What ARE you saying particlewill??

[Mac Guffin]

Read the freaking link, kambuckta. Then you will see what I am saying. According to the link there is evidence that this may be a terrorist thing. It is for that reason I am asking "What if". What if it turns out that this IS terrorism? What should our response be? I am sorry if I wasn't clear there.


You might like to have that knee removed from your forehead Kam, that was a mighty big jerk it did....

[Apos]

If these really are terrorists, the smartest thing they could do now is simply disappear. Uncertainty would spread terror far better than a few more killings that eventually culminate in them getting caught.

[ready29003]

Ok I will draw the line at using my mind to tell anyone the best ways to be a terrorist.

Our only advantage over nutballs who mindlessly kill random people...is that they tend to go about it in a pretty stupid way, (because they tend to be somewhat stupid in the first place to choose to embrace the rational leading them to their nutball killings)...thus we get to catch them eventually.

So I am going to restrict my discussion to analysis of the available evidence, and not how the nutball could be more successful.

[vibrotronica]

I was ready to be convinced that the sniper was an Al Q terrorist until the whole Death card thing happened. Al Q religious nuts wouldn't leave a tarot card that says "I am God" on it. They would consider that blasphemy. This guy's homegrown.

[vibrotronica]

I was ready to be convinced that the sniper was an Al Q terrorist until the whole Death card thing happened. Al Q religious nuts wouldn't leave a tarot card that says "I am God" on it. They would consider that blasphemy. This guy's homegrown.

[Shirley Ujest]

I am with Sam Stone and deball theories, with a hefty dosage from our aussie criminologist.

Whomever this is, is well dressed or good appearances. I am really torn between the home grown loon to Al-Qaeda link. I am leaning towards a group, three to four guys working together.

The Tarot card was a plant by some kid. It is a lark. If was a line of communication there would have been more. the shell casing, however, was because perhaps he was spotted by some one but they haven't come forward because they were a kid and scared to death.

Whomever it is, is a sterling member of a community who will receive tons of " I am shocked." " He was so quiet" sound bytes from neighbors. His mother will refute it.

I also fear that he/they will go into hiding to never surface again. But another round of sniper attacks, new group, will start up in another city. (Not LA because the traffic there is such a log jam.)
Philly, because it is the birthplace of our country? Although, I just can't get a Hollywood attack out of my mind either.

That one witness, the guy with the funky accent, who has been all over the news, (last name starts with an M, I think.) he really disturbs me. I can't place his accent ( eastern Euro? Mid east? His last name looked spanish, I thought. But didn't sound spanish.) My immediate thought with seeing/hearing him was that " He's part of it. A decoy of sorts." It's not because of the accent...he's just gave me the creeps.

When he went after that boy, this son of a bitch crossed the line.

[ready29003]

Good with guns, bad with brains.

He thought he could drive a van up to a phone booth make a quick call and get away.

Looks like they either got him or are very close now.

[Sam Stone]

It still seems to me that something very strange is going on.

What are the odds that two men, both illegal aliens, would just HAPPEN to park in front of the phone booth in a van which just happens to exactly match the descriptions of the vehicle?

The other day, a spent rifle shell was found in a white panel truck that a rental clerk was cleaning. Turned out to be the wrong caliber.

The shooting before last, a white van was caught speeding away from the scene, but the driver was released when another shooting occured while he was in custody.

I wonder if there isn't some disinformation going on?

And then there's that cryptic comment from the police yesterday saying that the note had them worried that something extremely serious was about to happen. As opposed to people being shot in the streets? How much more serious can a lone crazy person get?

This still sounds like terrorism to me. It's too calculated, too planned, for it to be a lone nutbar. That's still possible, but if I were a betting person, I'd say that we're looking at some kind of terrorism. Perhaps not al-Qaida - it could be a domestic terrorist. But I don't think it's a nut job.

[IndependentVoter]

The other day, a spent rifle shell was found in a white panel truck that a rental clerk was cleaning. Turned out to be the wrong caliber.

Correction:

I heard the original report about the casing being the wrong caliber. Today one of the police spokesmen addressed the casing specifically, and said the media had gotten the story wrong, and that it was a .223 caliber casing.

I'm sure this is just one of many mistakes the press has made. I can't wait for the book to come out that gives a day-by-day analysis of what we are hearing and what the truth really was.

Just a WAG at this point, but it is looking like the sniper used the two guys this morning as bait. Either that or they were screwing around with the cops somehow.

One of the witnesses made a point about how the cops were there before the van pulled up. (of course we know how reliable eyewitnesses are)

[John Bredin]

"And then there's that cryptic comment from the police yesterday saying that the note had them worried that something extremely serious was about to happen. As opposed to people being shot in the streets? How much more serious can a lone crazy person get?"

Yes, there's no possible way one criminal could do more damage than a single shooting a day, and not every day at that. :rolleyes:

[ready29003]

Anyone have a link to a page that shows the layout of each of the shootings. Where they think he lay in wait?

I am from Montgomery county and know a bunch of the places where he did his dirty work. He seems to like watching gas stations and other parking lots where he is fairly certain to get a target every few minutes.

But from what i remember, their aren't lots of super hiding places. I would like to take a look at photo's showing the layout and where he is comfortable setting up a snipe.

[Daoloth]

Breaking News: Interstate closed down after man in white box truck allegedly seen pointing a rifle at a school bus. No link yet, sorry.

[DarkWriter]

Originally posted by Daoloth
Breaking News: Interstate closed down after man in white box truck allegedly seen pointing a rifle at a school bus. No link yet, sorry.

Link (http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?sid=14313&nid=25).

They're not saying much, and neither is my local news. It's probably nothing.

Sheri

[Johanna]

I'm beginning to think of the killer as a negative entity from a demonic plane who materializes in this plane long enough to shoot, then dematerializes, which would explain his success in evading all detection.

What's more, his electronically garbled voice over the phone is reminiscent of Indrid Cold.

[Jackmannii]

Well, lessee.....arrested suspect is black, named Muhammad, ex-military.....

Something for everyone here, unless you were pitching the angry white male angle.

[Wendell Wagner]

Why has nobody even mentioned my theory that the killer is Cool "Disco" Dan?

[Beagle]

Mea culpa:

I need to revise my generic profile generator. Black Islamic ex-military machinist who worked at the sniper school, nobody nailed that one. Special forces, hardly. He did not even serve in a combat capacity.

If Muhammad thinks that this is helping Islam, he should use the insanity defense. "Al Qaeda didn't do it (9/11)," he says. "To prove it, I'll slaughter some innocents." (not actual quotes, hearsay + speculation)

Good job, Muhammad. You are doing what Jerry Falwell could not hope to do. It is getting harder and harder to argue against some limited religious profiling. 99+ percent of Muslims don't do this sort of thing, but the less-than one percent are awfully busy.

Why do they hate Aussie surfers and tourists? (See, it's not just the USA) WaPo index of Bali bombing articles. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/world/asia/southeastasia/indonesia/post/)

It's the infidels, stupid.

[Collounsbury]

Wth the name James Allen I rather question the identification "Islamic" - more likely fringey Nation of Islam loony.

Originally posted by Beagle
Mea culpa:

I need to revise my generic profile generator. Black Islamic ex-military machinist who worked at the sniper school, nobody nailed that one. Special forces, hardly. He did not even serve in a combat capacity.

If Muhammad thinks that this is helping Islam, he should use the insanity defense. "Al Qaeda didn't do it (9/11)," he says. "To prove it, I'll slaughter some innocents." (not actual quotes, hearsay + speculation)

Good job, Muhammad. You are doing what Jerry Falwell could not hope to do. It is getting harder and harder to argue against some limited religious profiling. 99+ percent of Muslims don't do this sort of thing, but the less-than one percent are awfully busy.

Why do they hate Aussie surfers and tourists? (See, it's not just the USA) WaPo index of Bali bombing articles. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/world/asia/southeastasia/indonesia/post/)

It's the infidels, stupid.

[Sofa King]

Why has nobody even mentioned my theory that the killer is Cool "Disco" Dan?

Wendell! You should be ashamed to drag the esteemed Mr. "Disco" Dan (http://home.mindspring.com/~toughskins/artwork/cool_dan.html) through the mud like that!

What would the children think?

[Apos]

Well, they didn't take my advice, and look where it got them.

People like this just can't seem to resist doing stupider and stupider things as time goes on...