Flying the Israeli Flag in American Synagogues

[lucwarm]

The practice seems very common in the NYC area. - an American flag on one side and an Israeli flag on the other. What's the deal? I find it troubling - Judaism is not the same thing as Zionism, is it? What allegience do American Jews and/or American Jewish institutions owe towards Israel?

Is this a regional phenomenon? A recent one? When I grew up in New England in the 70s and 80s, my temple had an American flag and the flag of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

[Mehitabel]

And often, but not always, a Catholic Church will have the flag of the Vatican (which to be fair is also a sovereign state) hanging up alongside the American flag. It doesn't mean that the people passing underneath that flag believe everything the Pope says, and don't practice birth control and/or have the occasional divorce. But it does tie us in to a worldwide community of believers, reminding us to look beyond our comfortable American lives.

Maybe it's the same thing here--Israel is going through a tough time with this current intifada, and whether or not American Jews agree that maybe some of its own policies aren't making things any better, I'm sure they pretty much all agree that having innocent people being blown up in their buses and cafes is a horrible thing, and that's probably what the flags are for.

The impression I get is that if you ask three Jews what their feelings and obligations are to Israel you'll get five answers. ;)

[Boyo Jim]

Odd, I've never seen a Catholic church fly an American OR Vatican flag.

[zev_steinhardt]

I should think it's fairly obvious.

While it is true that Judiasm != Zionism (after all, there are religious Jews who are not Zionists), Israel is the Jewish state and, as such, many Jews feel a tie and kinship to Israel.

Zev Steinhardt

[tomndebb]

I've never seen a Catholic church fly an American OR Vatican flag. It's been a while since I saw it, but I remember when it was common to have both flags on the type of poles that are carried in parades up at the side altars. They were not displayed along the wall, or anything, and when there was a patriotic service or a serviceman's funeral the U.S. flag would sometimes be included in the train and when the K of C were having some ceremony, both would be carried. As they were "flown" on poles indoors where the wind could not stream them out, they were fairly inconspicuous.

Neither appears in my church or my Mom's church. I think Deb's parents' church still has that, but that is a little country church that has made few changes since the 1960s and the flags probably haven't been touched (except for cleaning) in years.

[IzzyR]

I don't know about religious institutions, but I'm pretty sure you see a lot of guys displaying foreign flags on their cars and the like. Just some ethnic pride, or whatever.

I oppose the practice for religious reasons, but I don't think it indicates any allegiance to (as opposed to symphathy for) Israel.

[Harmonious]

I don't know... It might be different from shul to shul. In my shul, we have both flags. Every Shabbat we say a short prayer for Tzahal and for the well-being of the State of Israel, and since September 11 of last year, we've also said a prayer on behalf of the United States government, and for the United States Armed Forces.

Over the Three Weeks, we had a Tzedaka drive to raise $25,000 to buy a bullet-proof security van to be used as a schoolbus. Many of our members (who have enough money to do so) make a trip or two to Israel during the year.

I don't know that we are particularly concerned with Israel's politics as much as we are concerned that the land God promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a place we strive to go. When members of our congregation make Aliya, we celebrate, and we look forward to the day we can join them.

[Harmonious]

By the way, the drive was successful.

[Mehitabel]

Yeah, what I meant is that sometimes the flags are on poles, upright, in the darker back corners of the church, or waaay in the sides of the nave near the altar next to the tabernacle and the statue of St, Joseph with his T-square (so you know he was a carpenter, ya see). Sometimes they're on flagpoles that come out of the choir loft. Much of the time there are indeed no flags, although all three NYC area churches I sometimes attend, depending on where I feel like commuting, have had American flags since 9/11.

This thread isn't the place to air my ideas about the wisdom of using the Bible as a real estate manual, but good on your congregation, Harmonious, for getting the van for the kids. It's a shame anybody should have to worry about stuff like that.

[Brutus]

Our Church (RCC) flies both the US flag and the Croatian flag. It's not like we are all about 'Croatia Uber Alles'; It's just a sign of respect for the 'Old Country'.

[OWD]

Many jews are jew before all other identities. We have jews in the United States with dual citizenships. They are jews and Israelis first, and American citizens second. They believe that the United States exists soley to support the parasitic nation of Israel. Of course the Talmud teaches that we goyum only have human bodies because is is unfitting for a jew to be served by a beast. I do not trust any Jew with dual citizenship. One cannot serve two masters.

[Brutus]

Originally posted by OWD
Many jews are jew before all other identities. We have jews in the United States with dual citizenships. They are jews and Israelis first, and American citizens second. They believe that the United States exists soley to support the parasitic nation of Israel. Of course the Talmud teaches that we goyum only have human bodies because is is unfitting for a jew to be served by a beast. I do not trust any Jew with dual citizenship. One cannot serve two masters.

Wow, makes me want to curl up with a copy of The Protocols of Elder Zion...

[LouisB]

Makes me want to vomit.

[Michael Ellis]

Makes me want to vomit on a copy of The Protocols of Elder Zion's House of Pancakes or whatever it's called.

[lucwarm]

Originally posted by OWD
Many jews are jew before all other identities. We have jews in the United States with dual citizenships. They are jews and Israelis first, and American citizens second. They believe that the United States exists soley to support the parasitic nation of Israel. Of course the Talmud teaches that we goyum only have human bodies because is is unfitting for a jew to be served by a beast. I do not trust any Jew with dual citizenship. One cannot serve two masters.

Nice troll. But your post helps show what bothers me about the Israeli flag practice. It raises the specter of the sort of divided loyalties you describe.

Another example: As I recall, there was a case a few years ago of Jewish guy in the military who was caught turning secret stuff over to Israel. After the guy got thrown in the slammer, there were Jewish groups lobbying for his release.

I

[Duck Duck Goose]

My mainstream Protestant church has the American flag on one end of the platform and the so-called "Christian Flag" on the other end.

I don't have any problem with that.

[zev_steinhardt]

It's no more a matter of divided loyalties than an Irish-American marching in the St. Patricks day Parade.

In any event, in places where I have seen the flags, it has always been according to Code (i.e. with the U.S. Flag in the rightmost position, and never with the Israeli flag higher than the U.S. flag)

Oh, and OWD looks like he's going to join the ranks of POWER_station, Havel.2002, and my own personal favorite Sweet Willy.

Zev Steinhardt

[Some Guy]

Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose
My mainstream Protestant church has the American flag on one end of the platform and the so-called "Christian Flag" on the other end.

I don't have any problem with that.

Okay, serious question, even if it is a hijack:

The which, now?

I've never seen anything that professes to be a universal "Christian Flag" - I'm guessing it's an image of the cross, but I'd genuinely like to know what's what here. Is this (http://www.americanflagstore.com/flagsets/christianflagsets.htm) what you're talking about? (if so, can your superiog googleing skills find a better image?)

My apologies for the hijack.

[Bricker]

Confirming that it's common practice in Catholic churches to have both an American flag and a Vatican flag displayed.

I'm a Fourth Degree Knight of Columbus -- when we march as a uniformed Honor GUard, we have a four-flag color corps: US, Virginia, K of C, Vatican. The US flag is kept in the honor position at the left, and is the only flag we do not dip for salute. The Vatican flag, in other words, is treated exactly like our state flag and our organizational flag.

- Rick

[TeaElle]

Originally posted by Some Guy
Okay, serious question, even if it is a hijack:

The which, now?

The Christian Flag (http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrflag.html) (Warning: Here be bad auto-playing MIDI.)

I can't remember ever attending a church that didn't have one, somewhere. Only one ever taught the pledge of allegiance to it, though. I always found that terribly creepy.

[ /end hijack ]

[carnivorousplant]

Originally posted by tlw


The Christian Flag


I though that was Sweden or Finland or something.

[hajario]

Originally posted by lucwarm
Another example: As I recall, there was a case a few years ago of Jewish guy in the military who was caught turning secret stuff over to Israel. After the guy got thrown in the slammer, there were Jewish groups lobbying for his release.

I

You're thinking of Jonathon Pollard and this Jewish-American thinks that he should stay in jail for life.

As for the OP, I've never seen an Israeli flag flown in or around a synagogue here in California but if I did it would make me uncomfortable.

Haj

[cainxinth]

My synagogue displays both flags on opposite sides of the alter and always has as far as I can recall. Israel is very much to the Jews what the Vatican is to Catholics and Mecca and Medina are to Muslims. My Hebrew school upbringing was strongly Zionist and even culminated in a trip to Israel. But, I don't believe it is at all indicative of lack of allegiance to America. It’s fairly clear why synagogues would display the Israeli flag. According to the Torah that land was promised by God to the Jews. It’s unfortunate that they’re not the only ones with a claim, but that’s another story.

I myself no longer consider myself Jewish (for philosophical and scientific reasons) nor fully support Israel or America at this time (for political reasons) but I can tell you that the vast majority of American Jews are completely in support of America and the War on Terror, and care greatly about the safety of America and Israel. For me to speak otherwise is generally out of the question even though it’s not that I don’t want America or Israel to be safe, I most certainly do, but that I think they are both going after it in all the wrong ways.

[Latro]

How funny.

[QOUTE]The Christian flag is one of the oldest unchanged flags in the world[/QUOTE]

Followed by:
It was conceived at Brighton Chapel, Coney Island, New York, Sunday, September 26, 1897

1897, WOW that is ANCIENT.

[Dave Stewart v3.0]

Originally posted by cainxinth
My synagogue displays both flags on opposite sides of the alter and always has as far as I can recall. Israel is very much to the Jews what the Vatican is to Catholics and Mecca and Medina are to Muslims. My Hebrew school upbringing was strongly Zionist and even culminated in a trip to Israel. But, I don't believe it is at all indicative of lack of allegiance to America. It’s fairly clear why synagogues would display the Israeli flag. According to the Torah that land was promised by God to the Jews. It’s unfortunate that they’re not the only ones with a claim, but that’s another story.

I myself no longer consider myself Jewish (for philosophical and scientific reasons) nor fully support Israel or America at this time (for political reasons) but I can tell you that the vast majority of American Jews are completely in support of America and the War on Terror, and care greatly about the safety of America and Israel. For me to speak otherwise is generally out of the question even though it’s not that I don’t want America or Israel to be safe, I most certainly do, but that I think they are both going after it in all the wrong ways.

As someone who has little to do with either Jews or Arabs as a matter of geography, I am constantly alarmed by news reports of Israel's treatment of Palestinians (and obviously vice versa). To be clear, the presence of the flag of Israel in synagogues, as has been described here, is

a) an affirmation of religious identity with the land which gave birth to the Jewish faith?

b) a reminder to pray for the safety of Israel?

c) a gesture of support for Israeli policies?

I fully appreciate and empathise with a) and b). Its c) I have an issue with. Synagogues should be places which espouse peace, not support contentious governmental policies.

Perhaps all sovereign flags have no place in temples of worship.

[Fenris]

Originally posted by Dave Stewart v3.0

I fully appreciate and empathise with a) and b). Its c) I have an issue with. Synagogues should be places which espouse peace, not support contentious governmental policies.


So no church/synagogue should discuss any political issue? Catholics shouldn't have sermons against abortion? Reverend King shoulda just shut up? Reverend Jackson should shut up? (ok...maybe that one adds to you arguement. ;) )

The point is religion has been involved with politics for as long as religion has existed. Your ideal state of religion not supporting "contentious governmental policies." has never existed.

Even in the Jewish community, there are synagogues that are more or less political. One of my cousins belongs to a synagogue that's (based on the services I've been dragged to) actually a rally meeting for extreme far-left democrats masqurading as being a service: 1 hour and some odd minutes of blithering about how the congregation needs to go lobby for this and protest that and about 8 minutes of discussion of God, the Torah, prayers, etc.

And this sort of thing ain't limited to Jews, the far-left, or democrats. I'm sure there are tons of churches that do the same for the right.

Fenris

[Keeve]

Originally posted by OWD
Of course the Talmud teaches that we goyum only have human bodies because is is unfitting for a jew to be served by a beast.
Gotta cite for that, or are you just quoting misinformation that you picked up somewhere?

[Dave Stewart v3.0]

Originally posted by Fenris


So no church/synagogue should discuss any political issue? Catholics shouldn't have sermons against abortion? Reverend King shoulda just shut up? Reverend Jackson should shut up? (ok...maybe that one adds to you arguement. ;) )

The point is religion has been involved with politics for as long as religion has existed. Your ideal state of religion not supporting "contentious governmental policies." has never existed.

Even in the Jewish community, there are synagogues that are more or less political. One of my cousins belongs to a synagogue that's (based on the services I've been dragged to) actually a rally meeting for extreme far-left democrats masqurading as being a service: 1 hour and some odd minutes of blithering about how the congregation needs to go lobby for this and protest that and about 8 minutes of discussion of God, the Torah, prayers, etc.

And this sort of thing ain't limited to Jews, the far-left, or democrats. I'm sure there are tons of churches that do the same for the right.

Fenris

Having thought about what you've said, you're right, and I concede your point.

If synagogues choose to back Israeli pogroms of Palestinians, that's their business.

[cainxinth]

Originally posted by Dave Stewart v3.0
If synagogues choose to back Israeli pogroms of Palestinians, that's their business.

A glib remark like that begs a followup.

It’s unfair to classify Israeli interventions as pogroms unless you can make a case that they are specifically targeting civilians and not guerrilla militants and their supporters. You won’t find me arguing that Israel has stepped over many boundaries, especially in destroying the homes of Palestinians only suspected of harboring terrorist, but if you are going to make a comment like that, especially here, you had better be prepared to back it up.

[Dave Stewart v3.0]

Originally posted by cainxinth


A glib remark like that begs a followup.

It’s unfair to classify Israeli interventions as pogroms unless you can make a case that they are specifically targeting civilians and not guerrilla militants and their supporters. You won’t find me arguing that Israel has stepped over many boundaries, especially in destroying the homes of Palestinians only suspected of harboring terrorist, but if you are going to make a comment like that, especially here, you had better be prepared to back it up.

You don't need to lecture me on the protocols of this place.

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=pogrom


An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews


n : organized persecution of an ethnic group (especially Jews)


(I wasn't aware that historically it had been used in respect of Jews, I must admit.)

I'd say repeated indiscriminate bombing of civilians and the systematic destruction of a regional economy associated with that culturally defined group of civilians is an "organised persecution of an ethnic group". I disagree with your contention that civilians need to be "specifically targeted".

[cmkeller]

Dave Stewart v3.0:

I'd say repeated indiscriminate bombing of civilians...

But in what way have Israeli actions against the Palestinians been indiscriminate?

[carnivorousplant]

I've seen the term pogrom used as in Russia, where unofficially encouraged hunts were arranged, the dead Jews laid out in rows like trophies.
I don't remember the book where I saw the photograph. It took place under Tsar Alexander III. Admitedly it bothered me a great deal less as a goy than it does now.

[Dave Stewart v3.0]

Originally posted by cmkeller
Dave Stewart v3.0:



But in what way have Israeli actions against the Palestinians been indiscriminate?


....many feel it does not look good, including Yossi Sarid, leader of the left-wing opposition Meretz party.

"If you send an F-16 to a very heavily crowded city with a one-ton bomb you have to estimate from the very beginning that innocent people will be killed. So it was a very, very grave mistake of the Israeli Government," he said.

They have been offering regrets, but no apologies.

Foreign Minister Shimon Peres acknowledged that with the benefit of hindsight, it was wrong to bomb Salah Shahada in such a crowded area.

"But when it [the area] was targeted we didn't have the slightest idea about it. What happened now is a tragedy and we regret it very, very much.

"I don't take it lightly, but war causes mistakes and the greatest mistake is the war itself," he said.


From the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2150131.stm

[tomndebb]

I'm pretty sure that even a cursory search will turn up multiple threads discussing (or ranting that) those people are the truly bad ones in the Middle East.

I suspect that continuing similar claims would be more productive in those threads than in hijacking this one.

YMMV, of course.

[cmkeller]

Dave Stewart v3.0:

Your cite does not indicate that Israeli actions were indiscriminate. Even Yossi Sarid and Shimon Peres said that the presence of civilians in the targeted area was a mistake, not a deliberate policy of indiscriminate targeting.

Chaim Mattis Keller

[Estilicon]

Ok, in my country is common to see the Vatican Flag but then again according to our constitution the state "supports" the Catholic religion. Not only it is common to see the Vatican flag in churches but also when the president addresses the country you can sometimes see both the argentinian and the vatican flag.
Also remember that the shield represents the current Pope, so the flag represents both the Pope and the Vatican.

Now the flag of Israel uses a common jewish symbol, the star of David. So I don't think anything wrong in riasing it on a synagogue, I never saw that practice in my country but, in my state, they are a lot of Syrians. The majority are coptics?, once I went to a service to one of their temples and they displayed the flag of Syria.
Personally I don't see what's the big deal

[Estilicon]

My God, that's the worst thing I've written in my hole life. In two paragraphs I managed to repeat "vatican" 10 times. And the sintaxis is horrible. My apologies to all. Next Time I'll preview.

[Shodan]

Originally posted by Harmonious
. Every Shabbat we say a short prayer for Tzahal and for the well-being of the State of Israel, and since September 11 of last year, we've also said a prayer on behalf of the United States government, and for the United States Armed Forces.

Over the Three Weeks, we had a Tzedaka drive to raise $25,000 to buy a bullet-proof security van to be used as a schoolbus. Many of our members (who have enough money to do so) make a trip or two to Israel during the year.

I don't know that we are particularly concerned with Israel's politics as much as we are concerned that the land God promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a place we strive to go. When members of our congregation make Aliya, we celebrate, and we look forward to the day we can join them.

Hi, Harmonious, and in the interest of fighting ignorance -

I know what a "shul" is, and I assume Aliya is a trip to Israel.

What are "Tzahal' and "Tsedaka"?

And welcome to the SDMB.

FWIW - my mainstream Christian church (Lutheran) flies the Christian flag in the sanctuary, and the US flag in the narthex. And I must confess that I was the one suggesting that the US flag be moved out there. I also don't sing patriotic songs when they are included in the service (the US national anthem, and so forth).

If this strikes OWD as divided loyalty, he is warmly invited to pound sand.

For a variety of reasons.

Regards,
Shodan

[cmkeller]

Shodan:

What are "Tzahal' and "Tsedaka"?

Tzahal is the Hebrew abbreviation for words which translate as "Army for national defense" (of Israel, obviously).

"Tsedaka" is generally accepted as meaning "charity"...although, while this is true, it obscures the fact that in Hebrew, the same word is used for "justice."

Chaim Mattis Keller

[GilaB]

Shodan,
Shul is the Yiddish word for Synagogue.

Aliya literally means "going up", and in this context means moving permanently to Israel. (It's also the term used when one is called to the Torah during services.)

Tzahal is the IDF, the Israeli Defence Force. (It's a Hebrew acronym, in the same way as IDF is an English one.)

Tzedaka is charitable giving.

The Three Weeks are a period of mourning in the late summer, during which Jerusalem was sacked and culminating on the fast day on which both Temples were burned.

Harmonious, welcome to the Boards! I know it's hard to speak in English, rather than what I always call 'Jewish', the Orthodox Jewish blend of English structure and grammar with key words in Hebrew/Yiddish/Aramaic, but remember that most people here don't share the same background, and need translations. This goes not just for non-English words, but also for technically English phrases like "the Three Weeks", which lose all meaning without the background knowlege that it's very easy to take for granted.

I see on preview that Chaim beat me to it, but I'm inflicting this on you all anyway.

And I just got a server not responding, so if this is a simulpost, sorry!

[Johanna]

For purposes of comparison: I've been to plenty of Muslim mosques and Hindu temples in the United States, and seen the Stars and Stripes there, but never once seen a Saudi Arabian or Indian flag displayed in any of them.

(I did once know an African-American Muslim who flew the Saudi Arabian flag from a flagpole in his front yard, but that was because it has the declaration of faith on it, nothing to do with the country of Saudi Arabia itself.)

[Neurotik]

Originally posted by Jomo Mojo
[B]For purposes of comparison: I've been to plenty of Muslim mosques and Hindu temples in the United States, and seen the Stars and Stripes there, but never once seen a Saudi Arabian or Indian flag displayed in any of them.[B]
Of course not. Those aren't even analogous. Saudi Arabia is not the seat of the Muslim religion in the same way that the Vatican is, and it is not the homeland of Muslims the way Israel is for Jews. Why would a Turkish or Pakistani Muslim fly the flag of Saudi Arabia? Or a mosque for that matter?

Same deal with Hindu temples.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally posted by Neurotik

Why fly the flag of Saudi Arabia? Or a mosque for that matter?

Same deal with Hindu temples.

Er, Mecca is in Saudi Arabia?

[Latro]

I've been to plenty of temples.
Never have I seen any national flags inside them..
Haven't been to the U.S, yet.
Is this a typical american thing?

[gigi]

Originally posted by Shodan
And I must confess that I was the one suggesting that the US flag be moved out there. I also don't sing patriotic songs when they are included in the service (the US national anthem, and so forth). Amen. I don't think patriotic songs have any place in church, and even prayers for the armed forces strike me as odd unless phrased peacefully.

My (Catholic) church must fly the American and Vatican flags too but I honestly can't remember having seen them displayed prominently. Definitely when I was a kid they were right up front.

Originally posted by Mehitabel
And often, but not always, a Catholic Church will have the flag of the Vatican (which to be fair is also a sovereign state) hanging up alongside the American flag. It doesn't mean that the people passing underneath that flag believe everything the Pope says, and don't practice birth control and/or have the occasional divorce. But it does tie us in to a worldwide community of believers, reminding us to look beyond our comfortable American lives. While the Pope may articulate various guidelines for moral behavior, it's not like he speaks in isolation; these guidelines are represented by the Church throughout the world. These standards of morality are supposed to hold true even in "the land of the free", where self-determination and liberty are not supposed to override responsibility for morality.

::climbs off self-righteous soapbox::

[Neurotik]

Originally posted by carnivorousplant
Er, Mecca is in Saudi Arabia?
Really? I didn't know that. Oh wait...yes I did. Your point is?

Just because Mecca is in Saudi Arabia, doesn't mean that a Turkish Muslim has any love for Saudi Arabia itself or thinks of it as some sort of national/ethnic homeland the way Israel is for Jews. In the same way, Saudi Arabia is not solely a state reserved for the upper echelons of a hierarchical religious organization like the Catholic Church. Nor is Mecca.

Hence...not analogous comparisons.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally posted by Neurotik

Really? I didn't know that. Oh wait...yes I did. Your point is?


That is why someone might (in error) fly the Saudi Arabian flag in a Mosque.
I did not mean to imply that that is why they should, only that is a reason why they might.

Perhaps I stated my response badly.
:)

[Neurotik]

Ah. I see. I take back my snarkey tone.

But anyway, I doubt a mosque would make that error, as they are supposed to be knowledgeable about this sort of thing. But you are right...it definitely could happen.

[astorian]

When I was a kid in New York (late 60s-mid-Seventies), it was very common to see American flags in Catholic churches, and they were often part of the initial procession. I NEVER recall seeing a Vatican flag, however.

Today, on the other hand, it's become rare to see American flags in Catholic churches, except for special occasions. If a Sunday happens to coincide with the 4th of July or Memorial Day, you may see Old Glory at a Catholic Church. At a Thanksgiving Day Mass, they may sing "America the Beautiful." And when a Catholic veteran dies, it's common to see American flags flown (or draped over the coffin) at a Catholic funeral Mass.

But today, the Church as an institution is generally not supportive of American foreign policy (especially when the Republicans are in power), and tends to discourage mixing of religion and American nationalism. There's a widespread feeling among Church leaders that American patriotism is contrary to the values of the Gospel.

If that leads to suspicions that American Catholics have "divided loyalties," the Church hierarchy is willing to chance it. (For what it's worth, ordinary American Catholics are far more likely to be hawks on foreign policy issues than their bishops).