Suggestions for dealing with school insults

[Dinsdale]

Some of you may recall a couple of weeks ago I posted that my 7th grade son got suspended from school. There is one kid who has been saying rude things to my son - and many other kids - since last year. My son hauled off on the kid after he called my kid's mom a "dildo, a homosexual, and a whore." He says other very unpleasant stuff like "You fuck your mother dry." I could give you many other examples, but I suspect you get the picture. In my opinion, this goes a little beyond childhood name-calling.

According to my son, no one likes this boy. The school has intimated that the boy has some kind of emotional/behavioral problems.

My son and the other kid were both suspended for a day. Also, the other kid got in a fight with a third kid the same day - that third kis was also suspended for a day.

We wrote a letter to the school saying we would not appeal the suspension, because our kid should not fight at school. But we wanted the record to show that we had complained about this the previous school year, my son had asked his gym teacher to not make him be on the same team with this kid, and there was no supervision in the locker room where this took place.

Yesterday my son says the kid was repeatedly telling my son that he was gay and should go use the girls' locker room. He said he tried to ignore it and subsequently wrote a note to his gym teacher, who told him he had handled it correctly.

Bullshit! It doesn't seem right to me that my kid should have to be subjected to this kind of abuse on a regular basis. Today my wife is calling the assistant principal, and asking what they will do about this. Just wondering what thoughts you guys might have on this. How far do we push this? What should we expect/demand of the school?

It is one thing to say "ignore him," but I sure would have a hard time ignoring someone at work who insulted me regularly. Don't know why my kid should have to. And tho I can say "Don't let it bother you," it clearly DOES bother him. Which I think is understandable.

[Eulogy]

When I was still at school, I'd generally deal with it by using a 'better' insult, but as you said, the kid seems to have some sort of trouble (which may prevent him from seeing if he is being made a fool out of.) If you really want him to resort to physical violence, my father always told me a bash on the end of the nose did the least damage and hurt the most. But you don't seem like you're into that, so uhh, seems best to me that the other kid gets some sort of tuition, shrink, or special school to cater for his problem.

[dorkusmalorkusmafia]

Dinsdale, most schools now have a no tolerance policy on fighting. If two kids fight they both get suspended regardless of who started it or did the most damage. Bring this up with the principal, the little shit should have been suspended too.

[Legomancer]

I suspect that, if the other kid has emotional problems and the school is doing nothing that there's a loud parent on the other side threatening a lawsuit if anything happens to his kid. While it may be appropriate for your son to ignore the insults, I don't think it's appropriate for the school to ignore them. Unfortunately there's little they can do. Suspending the kid only makes the problem stop for a day or two, it doesn't solve it (many kids like this don't want to be at the school in the first place, so this is like throwing him into the briar patch). It takes practically an act of congress to expel a kid these days, and if the kid has any emotional problems, you're risking legal action if you do that. And many emotionally troubled kids are punish-proof.

You can try to raise hell with the school and hope you yell louder than the opposing parent, but it's an uphill climb, and they honestly may not have that many options available to them. It's a hole they've dug themselves into, and it's not going to change in the current climate, not without a raft of lawsuits and some brave administrators.

[Giraffe]

Middle school is a savage, lawless place. There's not much you or the school can do to force this kid to not act like an asshole. Ignoring him is probably the best solution, although if your son kicked his ass a few times, I'm guessing that he'd find someone else to harrass.

[EchoKitty]

Maybe a lawsuit (or the threat of one) is in order. There's no reason a kid should have to put up with that. I don't know of an adult that would! You could either go after the school or directly after the kid's parents. Couldn't hurt to look into it.

[Dinsdale]

Thanks, guys.

The problem with trying to ignore something like that is, you still hear it. And my kid is on the sensitive end of the spectrum. And it does bother him, even if he doesn't react.

He wears an earring (as do I) and yesterday he was suggesting he mght stop wearing it because that might make the jerk pick on someone else.

Tho I previously considered myself quite a pacifist, I found my views changing after he took it to this kid. And it seemed to work for a couple of days. And the other kids seemed to give my son more respect. Heck, some kids even asked him for his autograph.

My kids find the recommendation of "ignoring it" laughable. They say that just targets you as weak, and a better target. They have more daily experience of how kids interact in schools today than I.

I told my son to feel free to go back at him with the insults. And I'd brainstorm with him if he wanted.

But I think there is a limit to how many times I want my kid to be suspended. I have told him, tho, not to fight this kid on school grounds.

If this kid has some kind of "disability," does the school have an obligation to tell us what it is that we are supposed to be understanding of?

I'll let you know what the missus learns from the school today.

[Legomancer]

Originally posted by Dinsdale
If this kid has some kind of "disability," does the school have an obligation to tell us what it is that we are supposed to be understanding of?

Nope. I'm betting that would violate his right to privacy.

Welcome to the monkey-run monkey house.

[Neidhart]

Is Antisocial Personality Disorder considered a disability?

:rolleyes:

[Trob]

May I suggest you call this vermin's parents and talk to them? Tell them that junior appears to need professional help.

[Alto]

Continuing EchoKitty's idea of a lawsuit--is it possible for a school student to bring a lawsuit for sexual harrassment? Because that's clearly what this is (at least in part), and that kind of suit tends to be taken seriously.

[robertliguori]

As a card-carrying nerd who survived high school, I can give a little advice in these matters.
Don't ignore: This just sets you up as a more tempting target, and makes it more satisfying when you crack.
React: React in a way that they don't want you to. Get administration involved for the major/longstanding stuff. I have found that the people who call you gay are usually shut up by a good hug.

[green_dragon]

I had similar problems in school as your kid, and you guys have my sympathy. It's a very hard situation. Things changed when I started doing martial arts...the atmosphere of respect and discipline completely changed my attitude towards life and the people giving me a hard time. I'm not suggesting your kid learn to kick his ass, i have never struck out against anyone in that way, its just a very constructive and useful thing to do. I do agree that the kid in question does need some kind of professional attention, but I would recommend Martial Arts as a good starting point for your kid.

[Manda JO]

Papertrail, papertrial, papertrail. This kid may well have some sort of emotional problem, and there are genuine emotional problems that can casue this sort of thing and which are really no one's fault. However, just because it's no one's fault dosen't mean that your child deserves to be abused--he dosen't. However, for the school to take steps--such as putting this child in a more restrictive enviroment--they need a clear and unambigous papertrail. Document everything he says to your child--word for word. Document every communication you have with the school about this child. And make sure that the school knows that you consider this 1. abuse that they must stop and 2. that you are documenting everything. Remind them everytime you talk to them "I have a stack of papers an inch thick full of times that Johnny has told my son that his mother sucks monkey's cock. When are you going to do something about this?"

[Eutychus]

Originally posted by Manda JO
"I have a stack of papers an inch thick full of times that Johnny has told my son that his mother sucks monkey's cock. When are you going to do something about this?"

"I suppose we could have a talk with the monkey ..."

[neutron star]

I disagree with those who say that ignoring the problem isn't effective.

There were several people who picked on me mercilessly in my middle school years. For the whole of 6th and half of 7th grades, I shot back clever insults and caustic comments. The torments never abated.

Then one day in 7th grade, I decided to just ignore it. The abuse didn't stop entirely and not all at once, but it was noticably less. Those punks were trying to provoke a reaction in me. When I gave them no reaction at all and just sat there with a straight face, looking in a different direction or staring at a book as if I couldn't hear them at all, they moved on to more entertaining targets. It's no fun fist-fighting with someone who won't fight back. The same goes for verbal assaults.

To the OP, I would be hesitant to get too involved in this. It could backfire. Suppose the other kids get wind of what you're doing. They may see it as evidence that your son can't fight his own battles and needs to call mommy and daddy in to save him. Right or wrong, I know the kids at my school would have seen it that way.

You may also want to remind your son that things will be much better in high school, and better still in college.

[caffeine_overdose]

Being a high school senior I vividly remember middle school and the first two years of high school as being hell on earth. Being sensitive made it worse (although I got massive action so it balanced out). Kids like you describe seem to be placed in “special” classes about half-way through sophomore years. Unlike your typical asshole these ones will not stop. That being the case your options are enumerated as follows

1.Ignore him and report him to administration
pros: you don't get in trouble
cons: you look like a wuss and it will not do
much unless many people complain
2. Insult the kid
pros:feels good/can be used in conjunction with 1.
cons:does not do much/ may lead to 3.
3.Start a fight (this is what usually happens if you insult him enough and throughout middleschool and the first two years of highschool I got into a fight the first month of school and was left alone for the rest of the year)
pros:generally stops if you beat them badly
enough/respect and satisfaction
cons:suspension/ you might lose
4.(The option that no one has mentioned because it is wrong and evil) Start making fun of someone else who is weaker than you
pros:almost always works
cons:wrong/you seem like a jack ass

Personally I would insult the kid until he threw the first punch and then beat him up and claim self defense. You still get suspended but it does not go on your permanent record and IF your son beats him enough then the jr. jackass will stop

[phouka]

Hmmm. Toughie.

I'm going to suggest that first you go back to the administration and explain to them that if they don't protect your child's right to an education by dealing with the little monster, their ass is hanging out in the breeze, waiting to be fucked by a lawsuit. You need a papertrail to make this really frightening, but legal precedent is on your side.

Also, contact the other kid's parents. Get a read on them beforehand if you can. They may be competent, capable adults who won't let junior off the hook, but will nail him to the wall as soon as they find out about his behavior. They might be wishy-washy codependent spineless amateurs who need to have the consequences of their parenting pointed out to them with footnotes for legal and economic ramifications. Or they might be hostile assholes who should be served with papers. Of course, if you really want to make them miserable, report them to Child Protective Services and say they're neglecting their child's emotional welfare.

[Mangetout]

I think a face-to-face meeting with the school authorities would be better than letters, or better still, do both - insist on a meeting to discuss the matter, put your complaint in writing and deliver it by hand at the meeting.

Are there any 'higher authorities' to which you can bring the matter?

[Zebra]

Hummmm....

I'm thinking mini tape recorder.


Tape the kid and play the tape back for his parents/ school admin.

One, your boy will feel like James Bond.

Two, the other boys parents/ school admin will not be able to deny it.

[Dinsdale]

Never a dull moment in casa Dinsdale. Who needs to worry about things like paying the bills, or personal growth and fulfillment, when you can spend countless hours wrangling with school authorities about schoolyard namecalling!

Jr. Dins came home and told us the vermin - John - got into another fight with another kid - who happens to be our neighbor. I guess John was saying all kinds of shit to kids, including our neighbor, who pushed John, and they had to be separated. Both kids got a referral (one step less than suspension.)

Ms. D. called the principal and asst. principal to see why this was a referral, and our was a suspension - and what they intended to do about John. Ms. D. asked what was wrong with John, that we were supposed to be willing to tolerate. As predicted, they claimed privacy. When Ms. D. persisted, they said John os "emotionally disturbed." Apparently he had not been receiving any counselling or special services. I don't know if his parents opposed them, or simply didn't pursue them. I know when it became apparent that Jr. Dins had a mild neurological disability, we DEMANDED that the school provide what it could.

Yesterday in gym, John was on the other volleyball team, saying how my son's team was going to lose because my son is gay. I guess the gym teacher told him to stop it, and John yelled back something along the lines of "What do I care - I don't have any friends anyway."

So very sad. And a little bit scary. Hate to over-react, but I hope his parents don't keep a bunch of guns lying around the house!

We told Jr. Dins that it is important that he ignore this kid. I guess if he is so entirely without social contact - any response - whether an insult or a punch in the nose - is welcome to him.

The whole thing is so sad, that a young boy could be so unhappy. But, as sorry as I might feel for the kid, I don't want it to continually impact my kid. And I have only so many resources I wish to allocate to his and his family's problems.

Ms. Dins (also a lawyer) was in fine form. She used me as the bad cop - saying if I were to deal with this I'd be in the district superintendant's office the next day. The principal asked what we wanted to be done. We said we wanted to be involved at an early stage if there was any future need for discipline concerning my kid and John. And we asked that steps be taken that my kid not have to experience this abuse/harassment. If this happened to an adult at work, they would file a lawsuit for hostile work environment. If it happened in society, you could request a restraining order. They agreed to our requests.

According to the principal, these recent events will trigger a formal review process resulting in formation of an IEP (Individualized Educational Plan). Again, I don't know if John's parents actively opposed this, or simply did not pursue it. Or if the school felt it lacked an adequate record to trigger one on its own. I have no idea what the nature or cause of John's particular emotional problems is supposed to be - and am hesitant to personally contact his parents. For all I know, he might be disturbed because his homelife is so fucked up. And, at this point, I hope we are able to step back, and not be seen in our rather small community as the family who has it out for this other family.

John also is going to be removed from my kid's gym class - at least for a while. We had asked that they not be in the same classes last year. They thought it would be taken care of because my kid is in the faster track classes, and John is not. But they forgot about gym.

I guess I should be thankful to John. Thanks to him, I have had the opportunity to discuss with my kids the exact meanings of dildoes, distinctions between whores and prostitutes, dominant and submissive homosexual roles and behavior, and many other fun topics. A far cry from the dinner conversations I recall as a wee laddie!

[Bongmaster]

Contrary to what some others have advised, I say teach him to fight, then let him. Having someone insult you like that and not answering it with immediate action will only encourage bullies. Yeah, you can ignore it, and *maybe* it'll stop. But a swift crack to the jaw will do it quicker and is more likely to be permanent. Maybe its out of line to say that, but it show I feel and how I dealt with those problems. In each instance (well, ok it only happened twice) a short 2-3 minute brawl corrected the insults. I got suspended, but it was well worth it. I actually became civil (though never really friendly) with both kids.

[Dinsdale]

bongmaster - perhaps you missed that my kid DID fight him already - and got the best of it - and got suspended. And, the kid's insults have continued pretty much unabated since the mutual suspension.

And my kids all know how to defend themselves. I trained and instructed various striking, grappling, and weapons arts for over a decade. My son is at his best on the ground, while my youngest daughter leans towards kickboxing, and the eldest girl moves like a dancer with a stick and/or knife.

But I'm not sure how often I want my kid to be suspended for fighting. And I'm not sure how far I want my kid to push an emotionally unstable kid.

[hedra]

Trust you, Dins, to come up with a positive spin to the whole deal.

Hope that solution resolves it. We've dealt with a mini version of the same issue, only in preschool. :eek: I'm hoping the boy with the emotional problems who taunted and then later physically attacked my son (at all of age 3) doesn't end up where John is, but I'm not holding out good odds.

BTW, a truly expressionless/emotionless reaction can indeed derail Abuse-type actions, because one of the fundamental processes in abuse is the attempt to process emotions that are 'too scary/stressful' by making someone else feel/express those same emotions. Abusers tend to be very good at getting someone else to feel what the abuser feels-but-cannot-process. So, whatever your son was feeling (shame, fear, anger, anxiety, unprotected, unsafe, etc.), chances are very good that those feelings are what John lives with daily and can't handle. But you have to have a completely free-from-reaction response, or you've still provided the satisfaction/release reaction in the abuser. Even a slight change in body language can be enough to produce the feedback necessary to keep the Abuser going.

Neurologically speaking, the reflection of the emotion in someone else's body language, voice tone, gestures, and facial expressions immediately reduces the stress associated with those feelings (for the abuser). It is the same function as bonding/attachment in infancy, when the parental slightly sad voice/face/gesture reactions to baby's very sad noise/face/gestures helps calm the baby. Critical point is that the reaction must be of lesser degree than the baby's, or the baby responds by escalating - parents know this as the 'don't panic when toddler falls down' rule, where if you react like something is a huge big deal, it then BECOMES a huge big deal. Parents functionally adjust the child's affect level, lower if you respond lower, higher if you respond higher (for good or bad reactions, BTW). If the response is disorganized or inappropriate (for example, anger when baby is happy, fear when baby is angry, sometimes responding in tune, other times not), the child doesn't neurologically develop the ability to cope with the stress. But they keep trying to get that reaction, because the system is set up to demand it. So you get abusers. Abusers need that process to escape the tension of their emotions, needing someone to react appropriately for their own stress to reduce enough to cope. Which then leaves the abused with unprocessed emotions... etc. It can be either a physical or a social problem at the root, and the depth of the emotional problem in the abuser usually means that the 'resolution' is temporary, and must be repeated endlessly as a stress-reducing process. In other words, it is a quick fix, that doesn't resolve on its own.

Check into Dr. Alan Schore's work (http://www.trauma-pages.com/schore-2001b.htm) for more theories about how this can get set up in infancy, if you want to know. Interesting stuff.

[gigi]

Wow, that's fascinating stuff, hedra!

As I read the story about the volleyball game, I wished I could be a kid there saying, "I'll be your friend." Maybe there is something about your son that makes him someone this boy would want to be around in a good way, he just doesn't know how to have a positive relationship and as you said, seeks what social contact he can, even negative. Or maybe this rare moment of optimism is severely misguided. :confused:

[Dinsdale]

Yeah, that is really interesting stuff, hedra. Like I said, I feel really sorry for John. I wish he were happy.

And gigi - I thought the same thing as you - momentarily. But the reality is my kids are fragile enough - I don't see them having the desire or resources to take on this big of a social cause. I guess I may be being selfish or inconsiderate, but I already spend lots of time encouraging my kids to have positive social relationships and make good choices when it comes to friends.

So I'm not sure how much such an effort would take out of my kid. And he personally doesn't seem to want to take it on himself - so I don't see myself pushing him. When we asked my kid why John doesn't have any friends, he said "because he doesn't act like a friend to anyone." Which made us feel good, cause we always tell our kids that "to have a friend you have to be a friend." Nice to sense that a concept might be sinking in after only a coupla million repetitions!

My kids seem to have a good sense of themselves, and what's right and wrong. But I feel they are potentially susceptible to "bad influences." So while I do not pick my kids' friends, I admit that I encourage them more when they hang with kids who seem to be directed in positive ways. Getting good grades, involved in positive activities, etc. On the other hand, when I encounter kids who seem sullen, get bad grades, and display no apparent interests besides video-games, I suggest my kids think about whether that is the type of kid they want to be particularly close to. Although they will hopefully be polite, pleasant, and friendly with as many kids as possible. And the final decision is always ultimately theirs.

Heck, my HS freshman's best friend came out in 7th grade. Which caused many of their group to turn away from her. Now, a couple of years later, they are coming to the realization that she's just a neat kid, and when they're hanging out, watching videos, playing D&D, or whatever, it doesn't really matter whether she likes girls or boys. (My daughter is really happy for her since she recently got a girlfriend - and threw a little party for them. To which the whole gang came and had fun.)

Part of this whole thing has been reminding my kid that calling someone or something "gay" is not really an insult. Which is a kind of touchy subject to deal with with a kid who believeves he is hetero, and is sensitive to being called "a girl." I don't remember Ward Cleaver addressing that one...

Hey hedra - you should stop by for dinner sometime. Mrs D thought some kinda line had been crossed the other day when the topic turned to "fudgepacking." Yeah, I can't quite see my p's discussing anal sex with me over dinner. Will be interesting to see how - if at all - it affects my kids as they mature.

[hedra]

Gimme a couple of years. Right now, I think the topics might be misunderstood by the 5-year-old, and the 1-year-old probably will just be looking for things to throw, or animals to maul with glee. (though my older did get incensed that same-sex-marriage was illegal, and that was when he was about 3 years old... still, I think the degree of detail would be beyond his capacity to process without bringing it up in class and getting me in big trouble with the teachers)

I'm still sad for the kid who harassed my older son, too. It sucks to be them, truly.

[Breezy]

My little brother was getting heckled in a high school class of his by some low-life, and my husband just happened to be doing some work at the school. Husband stumbled upon some kids trying to duct-tape brother to the floor. (I realize this may sound kind of funny, but put yourself in my brother's shoes, and it won't seem too funny anymore).

My husband went in and did a little threatening, and brother hasn't had any more problems.

My point is: Is it possible for an older friend of your son's to do a little threatening to the bully?

[phouka]

At this point, threatening is not the answer. Little John is so needy for attention that he's turned to outrageous behavior in order to get negative attention - negative attention being better than no attention. There's a type of bullying called reactive bullying, where a child with poor social skills does and says inappropriate things until another kid hauls off on them. Then the instigator goes crying to an authority figure that they've been bullied. It's not exactly what's happening with John, but pretty close.

IIRC, an IEP requires a medical diagnosis of some sort - which means there is already some sort of record on the kid's emotional disorder or that the school is pushing to have the kid seen by a doctor or psychiatrist. The parents can refuse to cooperate, but if they do and the child's behavior does not improve, the school can go to court or call in Child Protective Services under the allegation that the child's needs are being neglected. That's pretty far down the line.

In the meantime, Dins, if you have it in you to do any good for the kid, suggest to the principal and any teachers your kid and John have in common that they come up with a plan to give that needy child some positive attention on a regular basis. Maybe they can get a group of volunteer students to spend five minutes one-on-one time with him (and there shoud be a reward for the volunteers). Maybe a teacher or administrator or custodian or SOMEONE can make a point of buddying up to the kid. It stands as good a chance as any to help resolve this problem.

[Garfield226]

Originally posted by phouka
In the meantime, Dins, if you have it in you to do any good for the kid, suggest to the principal and any teachers your kid and John have in common that they come up with a plan to give that needy child some positive attention on a regular basis. Maybe they can get a group of volunteer students to spend five minutes one-on-one time with him (and there shoud be a reward for the volunteers). Maybe a teacher or administrator or custodian or SOMEONE can make a point of buddying up to the kid. It stands as good a chance as any to help resolve this problem.

It might just be me, but I don't think this is a good solution. I mean, rewarding a kid to be friends with an outcast? Put yourself those shoes.

I realize he wants attention and someone to be friends with, but if you were John, and you found out somehow that people were getting candy/extra playground time/whatever to spend time with you, I'd have to think you'd be pretty ticked off. I know I'd be upset if people started spending time with me only because they got rewarded by someone else...

[asterion]

Originally posted by gigi
Wow, that's fascinating stuff, hedra!

As I read the story about the volleyball game, I wished I could be a kid there saying, "I'll be your friend." Maybe there is something about your son that makes him someone this boy would want to be around in a good way, he just doesn't know how to have a positive relationship and as you said, seeks what social contact he can, even negative. Or maybe this rare moment of optimism is severely misguided. :confused:

And I am the only one who would break into a rendition of Lean on Me or whatever that song is?

[carlotta]

Childhood Bullying and Teasing: What School Personnel, Other Professionals and Parents Can Do by Dorothea M. Ross

I came across this book in my library a few years ago and it seemed very well researched and practically oriented. I looked it up on Amazon and it appears a revised edition (adding "Violence" to the title) is coming in February.

It went well beyond the typical "ignore it/punch him in the nose/become the bully's friend" advice. This is a serious problem and requires much more than the insights of a sitcom scriptwriter.

Dinsdale, I think you and your wife have the right attitude about this. It is incredible that our society has traditionally expected children to tolerate verbal, physical, and sexual assaults in school that would result in jail time if perpetrated on the street or in the workplace.

[gigi]

Just FTR, I didn't mean to imply that your child wasn't doing enough to reach out to poor John! I was actually surprised at my own reaction of wishing someone could reach out (having been the brunt of teasing a lot myself) and wanted to preserve this shred of tenderheartedness. In reality, it is risky and setting yourself up for potential trouble and would take a lot to do such a thing.

asterion; Well, after all, it won't be long 'til I'm gonna need somebody to lean on. ;)

[gigi]

Originally posted by carlotta
It is incredible that our society has traditionally expected children to tolerate verbal, physical, and sexual assaults in school that would result in jail time if perpetrated on the street or in the workplace. Yeah, there's almost a weird dichotomy going on even here on the boards. On the one hand there are threads like these, and the other parts of the one regarding tag here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145012). In it some folks express the idea that kids need to go through bullying as a rite of passage and how will they handle themselves in the real world if they are "coddled" and their parents dart in every time they are hurt or threatened. That may be where this (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145119) Great Debate came from.

I think there's a way to teach kids that life can be hard without subjecting them to abuse by fellow students.

[Dinsdale]

Update: yesterday Jr. said simply that John had been "suspended from gym." So at least he didn't have to listen to that stuff for one day.

phouka your suggestion sounds good. But the school employs all kids of professionals supposedly expert in handling such things. I can imagine it gumming things up to stick my well-intentioned but ignorant nose in. And I'm not exactly on the lookout for new social actions to expend time and energy on.

It is interesting to try to figure out what would improve this kid's self esteem and attitude. But I have not even met this kid. And It is a pretty full-time job trying to keep tabs on and genmtly nudge my own kids' developing characters. A better person than I might do more in that direction...

It is interesting the emotions something like this stirs up.
-Anger at the kid for being mean to my kid.
-Sympathy for the poor kid being so unhappy.
-Curiosity over what is going on in his household. What caused him to be like this, how aware are his parents, and what have they tried to do about it?
-Feeling of helplessness and frustration.
-And complex feelings about my kids growing up, and getting more exposure to a world that is not always nice and fair, and from which I will not always be able to protect them.

Thanks for all the input, everyone. I'll keep you posted.

[Rilchiam]

Hi; I know this thread is several days old, but I was just wondering...

Is it possible for John, Jr. Dins and a school counselor to have a meeting? If the two boys could discuss this in front of a mediator, that might clear the air a great deal. I don't like this business of teachers/administrators/parents playing phone tag, so to speak, and conflicting stories piling up. "He did this...Well, he says he didn't...Well, my son says he did." That's frustrating for everyone, and gives the administration the convenient excuse to avoid the problem as a waste of their time. John should be asked why he's always picking on Jr. Dins, where Jr. Dins can hear it. That way, they can both be reassured that someone is listening to them, and the counselor will hopefully be able to suggest a way for them to work it out.

Good job so far, though, Dinsdale!

[ratatoskK]

Hi Dinsdale, it sounds like the problem is finally being approached in the proper manner by the school administration. Yes, it is true, if the child has a disability there are privacy laws preventing the school from disclosing anything about it to anyone. And it is interesting that the school knew (and told you) that he had a disability, but he was not on an IEP (or section 504 or other kind of ed plan).

[jacksen9]

Insist that the principal give the kid an "administrative directive" that spells out no name calling or interaction period. If the kid violates an administrative directive he can be suspended and due process will beigin. Getting expelled is not far-fetched. If the kid has a label, he could be placed in an alternative setting.


Read the Student Code of Conduct. This should explain the rights each student should have. Our Student Code of Conduct is on the district web site.

Good Luck.

[DeadlyAccurate]

I had the reaction gigi did, that I wonder what would happen if Dinsdale's son tried to be a friend to John, but I realize that I can be a hopeless optimist at times. I'm glad everything is starting to work out.

[Dinsdale]

Hi all.

Several developments. Worked at home last Fri, which was the day my 2 middle schoolers had parent-teacher conferences. So I got to attend with Ms. D. After meeting with all the other teachers, we ended up in the gym speaking with Jr's gym teacher.

To fully appreciate this, you must get a mental image of a stereotypical middle-aged male gym teacher. Go ahead, put him in shorts and string a whistle around his neck. There you go!

He said John was a pain in the butt. Said after Jr. hauled off on him, he wished he could have taken Jr. aside and given him a couple of bucks and told him "Way to go!. Buy yourself some cookies or something." Said Jr. had been incredibly tolerant, the amount of grief he had taken from John before hitting him. Said John didn't seem to realize that Jr. was just about the only kid who ever tried to be nice to John. Said John was suspended from gym for a prolonged period - several weeks. Said he would be spending the time with Ms. H. Not sure her title - counselor/therapist? Works with what used to be called "BD" kids. When John gets back to gym, he will be on a "one strike" policy - first outburst - including verbal, and he is back with Ms. H.

Gym teacher said Ms. H might be able to give us some tips to help Jr. deal with the situation. Said he thought best move was to completely ignore John, as he was so starved for attention that even an insult or a punch was welcome affirmation.

Aside - Jr. has/had a mild neurological disability - sensory integration dysfunction. He had an IEP in grade school, and got a bunch of therapy. We discontinued all of that in middle school. Long story short, the gym teacher was amazed to hear that. Said Jr. participates in all gym activities on a perfectly even level with the other kids. Said he never would have guessed. Which didn't make me feel lousy! And I was glad to relate it to Jr. afterwards.

So, we went and introduced ourselves to Ms. H. Asked her if we could speak confidentially. She appeared surprised/flustered/uncertain, as she had never heard of us or Jr. before. Went into her office, asked 2 other people to leave, and closed the doors.

We said Jr. had gotten suspended for fighting with John. Said we understood privacy prevented her from discussing John's situation. And said we didn't really want to know what was wrong with him. While we wished he were happier, our concern was in trying to figure out how to help our kid deal with this situation, and not get into more fights, more suspensions.

I can't adequately explain Ms. H's response. She repeatedly said we "made her day." She was so happy we took the effort to seek her out, to see what we and Jr. might to do help this situation. She said we were "[b]real[b] parents." Which made us feel real good on one hand - but on the other hand, was a bit of a condemnation of the level of parental involvement in our upper-middle class community.

I guess we had assumed John was an idiot, but Ms. H said he is quite bright. She also opined that ignoring him was the wrong thing to do, cause it would not relieve him of the need to continue to seek out reaction. She said given his intelligence, he could be reached intellectually, and suggested Jr. say something like, "I see you are angry right now, John. And I am not going to respond to that. Let me know when you have something worthwhile to say." And THEN walk away.

She said if we wanted Jr. to do this kind of thin, she would work with John to see if some small steps might be possible. Said John really likes marine biology, which might be something he and Jr. could discuss, other than their mothers' sexual practices! Tho she said John would likely try to "one-up" anything Jr. offered.

She seemed shocked and tremendously pleased that we gave her our cards, and said we'd talk with Jr., and decide what, if anything more, we wanted to do about this. We restated that we had no interest in having Jr. and John be great friends, and didn't want Jr. to take on a social project. She seemed totally in tune with what we were saying.

Ms. H also said John's mom was really nice, and would really welcome a call from Ms. D. (Aside - from Ms. H's and the gym teacher's comments - as well as some things they DIDN'T say, I suspect John's dad might be a real bastard. Also, John has an older and younger brother - neither of whom are behavioral problems.) Ms. D will probably call her in the near future. Maybe go out for coffee.

We got home and talked with Jr. At first he seemed worried we were going to make him try to be friends with John. He said, "In all seriousness, I'm not interested in being John's friend." I told him not to worry - we weren't going to be setting up "playdates." But we were trying to figure out ways to deal with this situation. And this might allow him to take active steps, and exercise some control. Which made some sense to him. He immediately came up with a bunch of questions about giant squids he thought might pique John's interest. Jr.'s biggest interest is military history. I suspect he is viewing this as a situation where he can develop and implement "strategy."

Bottom line, while the overall situation still sucks, at least we are struggling towards getting a frame of reference, and identifying possible strategies for addressing it. We feel at least we are getting more information, instead of being completely in the dark. And we got some affirmation from professionals that our instincts/efforts were appropriate.

Thanks again, all. I'll keep you posted.

[iampunha]

Former victim here (and there were two ways I usually ever dealt with bullies. One was physical confrontation, which rarely worked, and the other was to ignore them, which never worked). I don't know how much help this will be, but I can't very well just sit and watch this thread and think "Gee, I hope these guys get everything worked out"...

Is Jr. somewhat isolated from the other people in his class when John starts shit? I know one thing that made me a very easy target was that I was usually off by myself (and the teachers weren't watching anything but the food in front of them, but I digress).

Otherwise, what the counselor said. Ignoring the guy is rarely, rarely, rarely going to work. The kid doesn't seem to have much of anything better to do than start shit with your kid, and one-upping him verbally is just going to tell John "Hey, I could learn an insult or two from this kid". Physical reaction is just going to tell John he's found someone he can play with, if that makes any sense.

I actually have to wonder about that comment you made that John's father might get along better with his (John's) brothers, and make fun of John at home to the tune specifically of what John is saying to your son. It is possible that John has learned that this, as well as whatever roughhousing John's brothers and their father do, as a means of getting closer to people. Unless, of course, I have missed something really huge here, in which case hand me the clue stick for a minute or two and I'll "repair" my brain:)

Now ... how to say this? I ask because this is one thing my parents *never* did, or at least not that I can remember. Jr. is aware that none of this is his fault, that the stuff has no merit and that y'all still love him and all, right? When I was growing up, the stuff I heard never got refuted or anything like that, so if I didn't know outright that something wasn't true, I had no reason to believe it wasn't.

And this, friends, is why today my self-esteem is the size of the smallest violin in the world, etc. It's not universally true, but if you get a kid young enough or whatever and tell said kid lots o f stuff enough (or all) of the time, s/he's gonna start believing it. And if it keeps getting reinforced, you turn out like me. And while I'm sure I'm lovely and all that crap, it ain't *all* that fun to hear "you're a waste of semen" for three years. Especially with adults around you not bothering to do anything about it.

Bitter? Me? Why, er, ... look at that bright shiny thing far away from me!

:: poof ::

[Dinsdale]

Now ... how to say this? I ask because this is one thing my parents *never* did, or at least not that I can remember. Jr. is aware that none of this is his fault, that the stuff has no merit and that y'all still love him and all, right?

Yes. Jr.'s self esteem/self image/confidence/etc. was our first and remains our prime concern. Sorry your p's let you down in that dept.

Re: your question of Jr. being an easy target - as far as I can gather, John is pretty much an equal opportunity insulter - tho when he gets ANY type of reaction from someone, that person becomes more of a prime target. I guess he was tossing some racial insults at one kid, who swore back at him. The next day those two got in a fight.

And I guess one reason Jr. is somewhat of a preferred target, is because over the past year, Jr. actually tried to interact with John. Tried to be his friend, to try to give him a reason not to be so unpleasant. In Jr.'s words, John's polite response was to tell him to "Fuck off and die."

A sad situation all around. But definitely one that will stick with Jr. all his life. You don't forget such things. And we want to try to encourage him to learn favorable lessons that will help him deal with difficult people, and be sympathetic of other people later in life. Trying to manufacture something positive out of a huge honking negative.

[Rilchiam]

Glad to hear this, Dinsdale!