Cable TV De-Scramblers

[Dirty Devil]

Cable TV de-scramblers - those boxes that you buy for a couple hundred bucks that attach to your TV cable line and let you get all the premium channels for free. They've been around for as long as I can remember, and are fairly easy to get if you look in the right places (kinda' like drugs). My question is, how do the cable companies detect these? I've heard all kinds of stories, like sending jolts of current through the lines, or driving special trucks up and down the street with special "detectors". Is there a way for them to tell if someone has one of these little gadgets?

[RoboDude]

Iv'e read somewhere that one cable company somehow flashed a message for a free T-shirt offer that only illegal boxes would show. Anyone who answered the offer would have to have had an illegal box.

[Therealbubba]

We've had a box for years, getting 4 pay-per-views and 12 premiums. We pay $30 for basic service. We have a signal amplifier that I am told acts as a buffer between me and the company. We also have a bullet protector.

The same law that allows private ownership of telephone equipment protects the ownership of cable equipment. However, using it without the companies permission is illegal.

I've been told that homeowners own the signal once it crosses their property line. As long as I don't hook up the cable myself, all they can do is shut me off. If they don't want the pay-per-view signal in my house, they shouldn't send it to me. I'm not sure how true that is, but no cable guy's getting in my house without a cop with a search warrent with him.

I have several friends that have had them for years like us, and nobody has been busted yet.

I heard a mail order company is selling DSS dishes with decoders that get all 160 channels for $700. Anyone out there heard about this or have one?

Therealbubba

[Louie]

like sending jolts of current through the lines

Yeah, the cable company I had used to do that all the time. The company said that the jolts will knock out the illegal boxes, but instead all it did was knock everyone's cable out for short periods of time. I guess since everyone complained about the cable going out like that all the time like that, the company stopped doing it.

[Louie]

One too many "like that"'s, sorry.

[RealityChuck]

I don't believe the cabal companies (I liked the typo so much I kept it) have any way to directly detect a cable box. The signal is one way from them to you; nothing goes back to them. I doubt the "free shirt" offer would work, either, since illegal and legal boxes operate exactly the same. Usually they find them by going into your house to fix something and discovering the box, or if someone rats you out.

[ubermensch]

i don't know about the boxes, but according to one of my professors, who i believe, if you wire cable yerself, or add other outlets (they charge to turn on other outlets in other rooms when you get hooked up) and you don't use the exact wire they use, they can drive around with their kick-ass trucks and somehow check for leaking radiation from improper shielding in the wires. i can't say for sure if this is correct, but there's got to be someone around here that either works for, or knows someone who works for 'the man'.

[handy]

There are a few ways, remember though, that they are many types of cable systems & many types of boxes.

1. the cable comp has a code to activate your box, if you use a pirate box, the code won't activate it.

2. This may sound stupid, but this is how they find out in my area, people put the pirate box in the window and the cable people can see it.

3. A local cable comp was sued recently because they made up stories so they could come in the customers houses [oh, we need to check you signal] & found the pirate boxes that way. They made like 20,000 visits & found 900 pirate boxes, I think.

These are how they do it in California, USA.

If you have PAL & an ATI video card, you can descramble for free with FreeTv software. Don't have anything to do that with NTSC, though.

[Primal]

ubermensch,

yes, the cable guys can detect when RF (the term for Cable TV signal) is leaking due to poor connectors/unshielded lines etc... they have a piece of equipment that resembles a CB radio called a CLI that detects where signal leaks are. As far as the illegal box goes, a lot of how the cable company would determine whether or not you are using one depends on the current level of technology your cable supplier is using. I worked as a splicer for a year, so all i did was upgrade the equipment that provides people cable. Most cable companies (in my experience) are using a equipment that is bi-directional; in other words the cable comapny is indeed able to bounce a signal directly to your house (well, depending on just HOW sophisticated the equipment they have is, they can only get as specific as the POLE outside your house, which may feed as many as 8 different households). So there is some truth to the rumor. With the more sophisticated equipment, it is possible to detect not only if you are hooked up illegally, but shut off your cable without sending someone out, they do all of this via computer. But, as someone who worked in the cable industry, it's not something to worry about. Most cable comapnies are so incompetent(and are still raking in dough hand over fist) they don't have time to worry about whether or not one person has a black box.

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Primal
"Life, by it's very nature, is self gratifying. If it also happens to be good or bad, that is purely coincidence."

[Primal]

sorry for the couple typos, my spell-checker doesn't work.

[Dandmb50]

I had the cable guy over once and of course disconnected my box and I noticed him while he was in the maitenance room and he had this little computer box of his own that he hooked into the cable line. I heard the thing working and I suspect they can check the cable line in the house and detect what things are connected to the cable.
But like another person said I don't they are worried about it since when they charge $79.95 for a boxing match I think their making so much money they can't be bothered.

Something they do here in Toronto is somewhat like the t-shirt thing, is while your watching the PPV movie which you get for free they have many different scams where the cable company says call us after the money and we will send you a free pizza. Well they are not doing because they want to give away pizzas they do it to catch people using the pirate boxes. If someone is that dumb to call in they deserve to be caught.

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Please feel free to email me
Dandmb50@netscape.net
and visit my homepage. http://members.aol.com/dandmb50/1.html/

[Mojo]

Intersting note: On my old descrambler (god rest its soul) there was a sticker that posessing the cable descrambler box is not in itself illegal. However, if you plug it in you're breaking the law.

I always thought it was one of this *wink wink nudge nudge* disclaimers to skirt the law, like selling tobacco packets with bongs.

[JoeyBlades]

The cable companies can indeed detect that you have something other than the hardware they think you are supposed to have. They use a tool calle a Time Domain Reflectometer which sends a signal into your house through your cable wiring. All hardware will reflect some of this signal back to it's source. They can look at the signature of this reflection and see that it's not what they are expecting, if you've got unauthorized equipment. They can then ask to inspect your system or can terminate your service if you refuse.

I had a friend that used to work for a cable company and he told me that he had this trick. When he detected a suspect system he would simply disconnect. When the subscriber called to complain he would come out, check that they had removed their bogus hardware, replace the descrambler box, and reconnect. He'd tell them that something had overloaded the system and had burned out the cable box. He'd explain that this usually only happens when people hook up incompatible equipment to the cable system. The next day he'd check again. If the subscriber had reinstalled the suspect hardware, he'd disconnect again. The next time the subscriber called he'd repeat. The subscriber eventually gets tired of being out of cable service for long periods of time and thinks his bogus descrambler is causing the problem, so just stops using it.

Of course, more modern cable systems block or pass the premium channels at the junction box, so there's no way to pirate the signal without breaking in to the sealed junction boxes. For instance, our current cable system is like that. When we first got hooked up, they inadvertantly gave us a premium channel. No boxes or descramblers were required, the channel just tuned in. I guess they discovered their mistake a few weeks later because the channel just went to snow - not to the tale-tale unsynchronized zig-zags of a scrambled signal.

[handy]

'When he detected a suspect system he would
simply disconnect. '

Doing that is illegal, too. Wouldnt be surprised if the cable comp got sued later over that.

[andros]

AIEEEE!!! Is there any hard evidence here? Or is it all just anecdotal? Any network/cable/electrical gurus?

Citations! My kingdom for citations!

-andros-

[Yarster]

Sorry, I don't have any citations for you, But I do have conjecture and hearsay. Those are *kinds* of evidence. (great 'Simpsons' quote from Lionel Hutz)

As far as the electrical signal spikes go. I heard they used to do this in New York City and had to stop because of risk that the boxes would overload, burn-out, and cause a fire while the subscriber/ pirate was not home, thus leading to major liability problems for the cable company, supposedly not allowing them to do it any more.

Like you all, I too have had a box for a number of years. The cable company out here upgraded once and moved all the PPV channels to a channel range to that was beyond what the old box would get. Simple solution was that I traded it back in to the pirate company and got a new one.

I've heard the 'free T-shirt' scam story before too, but am convinced it's an urban legand because all my friends have boxes and none of them have ever actually SEEN such an ad, though we've all heard the story. I've heard the way people get busted in being ratted out by a pissed off ex-girlfriend/ ex-wife/ ex-friend. And even then the bust consists of a nasty phone call from the cable company saying that they KNOW you have an illegal box and that you had better stop using it, at which point people get scared shitless and quit.

As far as purchasing the boxes, it's my understanding you have to buy it from a different state than the one you live in. I used to live in Austin, TX, and the big descrambler company in town wouldn't sell me one when I showed up at their door telling me it was illegal to do so. The ads in the back of Popular Mechanics back this up because they always say 'No Texas Sales' if the company is located in Texas.

[Yarster]

One other note: On my box, the one premium channel I DON'T get is HBO (I do get HBO 2 however). I'm told it's because there is a physical filter of some kind that gets removed somewhere along the cable line when you subscribe to this.

Only evidence I have though is that when my buddy lived in an apartment complex, he said the cable guy went into a 'locked closet' on the outside of the building and did something to turn HBO on for different people. He uscrewed the hinges to this outward opening door, went in, flipped all the switches, and gave everyone free HBO (himself included) to both become a cable-Robin Hood, and throw suspicion off himself. A week later, supposedly each apartment had a nasty note on it saying if they caught the person who did that, they would prosecute big time. Of course, this guy is notoriously full of crap, so I'd like to know if anyone knows if this is true/ why HBO works differently from the other channels?

[Primal]

Dirty Devil
the guys can drive around in their Kick-ass trucks (wanna see mine? http://www.surfshop.net/users/gunboy3/metruck.htm ), but they can't detect the illegal boxes merely by driving by. They can, however, detect signal leaks, not something to worry about.

Therealbubba: Check the deed /lease to your home. Utility Companies are allowed on your property for the purpose of maintaing service (read as repair / upgrading / etc...) Depending on who it is, they are indeed allowed in your home. Such as cable installers. So if you deny them access, they deny you service. That simple. and no, you do not "own" the signal once it hits your property any more than you "own" the electricity that runs through the lines on your property. a silly notion, really.

yarster: yes, the cable company encodes different premium channels via positive or negative reinforcement of the specific frequency. The filter you mentioned is placed in the cable line to either scramble or descrambe a specific channel. they are commonly known as "traps" because in essence that's what they do. the cable guy went into the closet (where the tap was, the piece of equipment that your cable line attaches to, to receive RF) and either added, or more likely removed, the filter necessary to give HBO. It's not just HBO incidentally, in my home town it's Cinemax that they encode that way. As for the T-shirt scam, it won't work. The t-shirt offer is bogus, for reasons that should be obvious.

Dandmb50, I have one of those little "computer boxes" that you saw the cable guy attach to the line. All it basically is is a signal meter. It tests the amount of signal and interference that you are getting. If the signal level isn't high enough, your picture will look like shit and you won't be happy. On the other hand, if it's too high, it will in essence scramble itself ( a condition know as cross-modification, or cross-mod for short). He was most likely just checking to make sure that you had enough rf.

JoeyBlades, I don't know where you heard about that Time Domain Reflector, but I am willing to bet that the same person who told you about that was just dying to sell you a bridge that overlooks some PRIME Arizona beachfront. Your friend in the cable company wasn't allowed to just disconnect peoples cable, as handy surmised. However, it is EXTREMELY easy to write off a cable outage on numerous different reasons.

Andors, I worked in the cable industry for a year, my father for the past 4, my brother for the last 3, and of course I know numerous other people in the business. I worked for Communications Construction Group, the largest Cable Communications construction company in the nation. (to lend credence to the above)

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Primal
"Life, by it's very nature, is self gratifying. If it also happens to be good or bad, that is purely coincidence."

[manhattan]

Well, OK. While I was typing in my response, Primal beat me to the post with the facts. I can live with that. I can at least add that the Anti-Theft Cable Task Force will have a web site in early December. If anybody wants the url, bring this thread to the top on about Dec. 10 and I’ll post it.

But you’re still gonna get my diatribe.

All you people with descramblers are stealing. That’s right, every bit as much as if you went down to the bank and stole $40 at gunpoint each month. You are committing a crime, violating the social contract and debasing your own sense of morality for a few bucks a month. Not only are you stealing from the cable company, you are stealing from the programming suppliers (channels), the suppliers’ suppliers (producers) and royalty recipients (writers and performers).

The fact that your chances of getting caught are low does not make it less of a theft. The fact that the victims rarely bother to prosecute does not make it less of a theft. The fact that the product you are stealing has no physical existence does not make it less of a theft. The fact that the victims of your theft are for the most part well off does not make it less of a theft. Would you break into a cable company executive’s home and steal a $40 bottle of wine? No? So stop stealing.

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Livin' on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[ZenBeam]

A time domain reflectometer is a real device. All it would do is send a pulse down the line. At each device or connection, a small amount of the pulse would reflect back. By measuring the delay, and knowing the speed of propagation, they could tell how far along the cable path different discontinuities were.

Something like a cable decoder box would reflect the different frequencies making up the pulse in a more complex manner that just a bad connection, so it's possible they could tell you had a decoder box. They probably couldn't be certain enough to sue or convict you, but they could send you a nasty note.

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It is too clear, and so it is hard to see.

[JoeyBlades]

Primal,

You wrote:


JoeyBlades, I don't know where you heard about that Time Domain Reflector...


I'm not sure how to answer that without it sounding like a flame... TDRs are very real devices. They can and are used as I described.



Your friend in the cable company wasn't allowed to just disconnect peoples cable, as handy surmised.


Well, I'm not sure about the legal rammifications... The subscribers sign a contract agreeing not to connect any unauthorized equipment to the line and the contract clearly states that a violation may result in termination of service... However, I suspect that any cable company doing this will try not to be too obvious about it - after all, they don't want to chase away their customer base, they just want them to pay for the service they receive.

[torq]

I'm not doubting that this TDR gizmo could detect that there was a discontinuity on the line, and even detect where that break was (in fact, if they're the same things that our systems guys use to check ethernet cable, I KNOW they can do that) on a single segment.

However, it would be surprising if they could tell the difference between a pirate descrambler box, their own descrambler box, your VCR, your DCD player, your cable modem, the signal filter on your cable modem, a signal splitter you've installed, a video game, etc. with any degree of reliability whatsoever, and do so despite the fact that there may be several perfectly legitimate splitters or A/B switches or signal amplifiers along the line between the TDR and your TV(s).

[JoeyBlades]

torq,

I think the TDR technique only works on cable system requiring a cable converter box. In this case, it doesn't make any sense to run your cable to any other devices from the source side and there's no reason to add a splitter unless you're planning on doing something not entirely legal. Any signal splitting on the output side of the descrambler would not be detectable, I think.

Unless the bogus descrambler is designed just right, it will present a different impedance to the TDR and the reflected 'fingerprint' will be different.

[Dirty Devil]

I have a Sony TV that has several inputs/outputs on the back panel. Right now I run the cable line through the VCR first, then directly into the "Cable/Ant." input on the TV. I can then run a line from an output called "To Converter Box", then back into another input called "From Converter Box" (I believe this is so I can use the remote control for the TV to control everything and don't have to use the box to change the channles). Since I currently don't have any premium channles, I don't use the box provided by the cable company. My question is, what if I hooked a descrambler between the Converter Box inputs and outputs? Would I still run the risk of being detected with the TRD method or one of the other methods mentioned above?

[SuperNerd]

Okay, this is getting silly and I can't stand it anymore, I have to jump in with my own WAGs.

First, the time domain reflectometer is a real device - I've seen them used many times troubleshooting (computer) network problems. I remember one time my workstation wouldn't connect to the server, a tech showed up, plugged in his magic box and basically said 'Well, there's the problem, there's a bad junction at 50 feet from here, plus or minus 5 percent, I'll be back in a few minutes'. This description is a bit frivolous, but the magic box did find the bad connection and I connected fine after that. What this has to do with Cable TV ... dunno, seems to me it's a completely different technology, I'd be hard pressed to tell you how the two cross over this way.

Next, yes - hooking up a bootleg descrambler is illegal, and the violators should be punished somehow. From the discussion so far, though, it sounds like the cable companies pretty much have thier hands tied - they can warn you but they can't cut off service? Or just annoy you until you give up? Some people I know; this isn't going to work too well - they'll outlast the annoyers every time.

Two closing thoughts here: one, I had two registered and paid for cable outlets in a house - one for the TV and one for the receiver. At some point, I realized that I never listened to cable radio, so I called the provider and asked that they disconnect the receiver feed. Guy showed up at the front door, handed me a form to sign and then turned around. I said 'Hey, don't you want to disconnect it?'; he said 'What's the point?' and walked away. The implication was that as soon as he left the driveway, I'd just hook it up again and they had no way of detecting this.

Two, I have a personal phobia about 'Wheel Of Fortune', hate, hate, hate. Years ago, I heard about a magic truck that could drive past your house and tell them what you were watching just then (to get ratings data, I suppose). I've spent the next several years making DAMN sure that if I fell asleep there was no way that WOF could possibly and accidentally be on my set in case they drove by. On the surface, this sounds like another UL but who knows - all they have to do is look at the IF signals that your set's radiating back out, it should be fairly simple to work that back to a channel. Take it one step further - if they could tell what's on the tube, they could probably tell if you can legally get that show or not.

For that matter, I ran a across a link a while ago about a guy that had built a box that would let him, from hundreds of meters away, see what was on your computer monitor - why wouldn't couldn't you build a similar box that worked on TVs? Okay, the site had an odd feel to it that made me doubt a lot of what he was claiming - I'll have to find the link and share it with you, see what you think.

Working ...

[SuperNerd]

In the last paragraph, please replace "wouldn't couldn't" with one word or the other, take your pick.

Thank you.

[ravenous]

Wow, I'd expect a super nerd to know that both Ethernet and cable TV can run over the same medium (i.e. coaxial cable).

Of course sending a pulse and looking at the response would work on any conductor. The TDR would have to be designed/calibrated for that to tell you anything useful, I'd think.

[evilbeth]

In reply to therealbubba's question--yes, there are DSS boxes that get everything for free including the pay-per-view and the sports packages. My brother works with a guy who always has everyone over to his house to watch the free football package and the boxing events. But he only paid $200 for the box and installation. I don't have info on how it works, I just thought I'd answer the question.

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Born O.K. the first time...

If you are born again, do you have two belly buttons?

[SuperNerd]

ravenous, I was having some trouble with this statement:All hardware will reflect some of this signal back to it's source. They can look at the signature of this reflection and see that it's not what they are expecting, if you've got unauthorized equipment. The boxes I've personally seen don't do this - they just report on signal quality end to end and report if there are any unusual reflections along the way (i.e., noisy connections). Maybe the cable police have more sophisticated ones, the ones I've personally seen just tell you about the wires, not the devices connected to them; feel free to correct me.

Next, unless you've signed up for some really bizzare cable modem scam, the coax that carries cable is a very different form factor than the coax that carries ethernet signals. This requires different connectors, terminators, etc, and these would all react differently to the test gear. And, finally - if you're still running ethernet over coax, jeez - get with the program. That's in the same league as dial telephones; I can buy a 10baseT hub at my local 'drug' super store (aka 'anything for a buck mart') for under $40; 100baseT for maybe double that. I've got a thousand feet of cat 5 cable in the basement that I paid about $80 for, compare that to the cost of coax. The only people I personally know that still use coax are ... well, the last one switched over about eight months ago, and I would have paid half of their cost just to simplify my life.

Okay, sorry and end of rant. Nothing to see here, folks - move on ...

[ravenous]

SuperNerd said: (I love that name)


What this has to do with Cable TV ... dunno, seems to me it's a completely different technology, I'd be hard pressed to tell you how the two cross over this way.


And I explained how Ethernet and cable TV could theoretically both run over the same medium. Of course everyone runs twisted pair these days so I won't get into coax types.

What I should've said is that what they're testing with the magic box is not the technology but the wire. Now I could go into all this stuff about delta functions and Fourier transforms but I've forgotten all that, so I'll stop here.

Personally I also doubt they can see much about what you've got connected to the wire. There're gonna be all kinds of reflections coming off and figuring out whether it's a VCR, a splitter, or a TV would be a major WAG.

[JoeyBlades]

Dirty Devil,

I would think that if you have the kind of cable that can be received with standard "cable-ready" equipment and do not use the cable box, the TDR methodology would not be capable of detecting unauthorized equipment. Basically, there would be too many possible legitimate interfaces... But then don't come crying to me if you get caught, I could be wrong.

On the subject of the TDR... Time Domain Reflectometry is somewhat independent of the medium. Any pair of conductors can be TDR'd. I work in the electronics industry and we use TDR equipment to suss out ethernet problems, analog transmission lines, and even PC boards. They all have different characteristics, of course, but the principles are fundamentally the same. My understanding of the way the cable company's TDR works is that when they first do an installation, they TDR the line with a complex frequency sweep and record a sort of 'fingerprint'. This fingerprint is unique for each subscriber configuration. Apparently, the natural drift of this 'fingerprint' is fairly predictable and nominal. The cable company periodically rescans the configuration and compares the current 'fingerprint' with the one they have on record. If they are radically different, then bogus equipment is suspected and they take action to have it removed. I have no idea what the frequency of these rescans are, but suspect you could go a long time with unauthorized equipment connected without being detected.

All of this is moot for me. Even if I wanted to steal cable, I couldn't (and for the record, I don't want to steal cable). My cable system is setup such that the signals are trapped at a sealed junction box, along with my neighbors' cable.

[SuperNerd]

The cable company periodically rescans the configuration and compares the current 'fingerprint' with the one they have on record. If they are radically different, then bogus equipment is suspected and they take action to have it removed. Okay, so over the last three years, I have had: swapped out the TV; added a DVD player; moved the cable over to an AV receiver; flipped to a different VCR; and then flipped back to the original. There's at least four major changes to the configuration and no one's come to the door to check. This still doesn't sound very plausible.

Okay, I'll agree that they could check if they wanted to, but think about the logistics of it. My little town is 900,000 people, be conservative and figure that's about 250,000 cable drops. How are they going to maintain, monitor, and update the fingerprint for all of us?

SuperNerd said: (I love that name) Thank you. This alias has been mine for years now, has gotten me a wife online and I'm never giving it up ... so don't ask.

[SuperNerd]

I'm going to start a thread about the grammatical errors that always seem to creep into these things. The above was written as I was getting ready to go to work, I was in a hurry, please ignore any random inconsistencies. Bye, I'm off now ...

[handy]

What ever happened to sharing your neighbors' cable connection with a splitter? Fun.

Still, it baffles me why they charge $4.25 per month for their own splitter if you want it on two tvs.

[SuperNerd]

Turns out that the job I had to do this morning only took an hour. The bad news is, I'm not getting much income this morning. The good news is, I can annoy people here some more.

Assume that cableco actually does have the equipment and energy to look at individual fingerprints. Assume that the average customer doesn't actually change his/her setup all that often, so the fingerprint tells you something useful. I could just drop in a distribution amp (available at any Radio Shark for about $20) - correct me if I'm wrong but when they swept the wires they'd see the amp and nothing past it, right? If you're going to the expense of buying the descrambler, what's another twenty bucks?

Handy, if you're sharing the cable with your neighbors, the distribution amp is the only way to go. You get a much cleaner signal, especially when you have to run the wires around the shrubbery; over the fence; etc.

[eden]

Hmm. I seem to be the only one who doesn't have an illegal descrambler box...I have an illegal descrambler CHIP. You install it in your legal cable box (since I live in the sticks where they still have these) and it unscrambles from inside your box.

Manhattan: It's strange; I know what I'm doing is stealing, but somehow I feel no compunction. And I should note that I am extremely law-abiding and I feel bad if the light turns yellow while I'm under it. But somehow on this issue, I'm morally inert.

[JoeyBlades]

NO! NO! NO! You guys still are not getting it. The TDR only works on cable systems that **REQUIRE** a cable box. The TDR only sees the cable line and the cable box - anything else shows up as an anomally. You can't put anything between the wall and the cable box (including splitters and distribution amps) or the TDR will see it. It doesn't matter what you put on the output side of the cable box - it's not reflected back. Unfortunately, once you're past the cable box there's no scrambled signals to be had.

eden,

You wrote:


But somehow on this issue, I'm morally inert.


Human nature. People always rest easier when they're pretty sure they can get away with a crime. That gives the ego defense mechanisms a chance to kick in and dream up all sorts of rationalizations and justifications for why it's OK... One word of advice: make sure you swap back in the stock chip when you return your cable box.

[meredith]

I don't know much about this, but for what its worth, I just recently got cable (legally) and saw a commercial from the cable company saying that they had the technology to detect black boxes from outside the house and the would by in my neighborhood soon! Spooky!

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meredith
"Everybody needs underwear!"-Rob Petrie

[SuperNerd]

The TDR only works on cable systems that **REQUIRE** a cable box At the risk of being accused of beating this one to death: gotcha, understand. So if you're paying for a box and they see it, you're fine. If you're not and they don't see one, also fine. If you're not and they DO see one, you're, um, you know. Subject to harrassment or something. Just to be complete, if you're paying for the box and they don't see one? I'll leave this one dangling.

My point (one of them anyway) was that if you put in a distribution amp and you're not paying for the box: they know you're not paying, they don't see the box, everyone is happy. Granted, they see the distribution amp, but this is a completely legal device (and fairly mandatory in my last house - the signal quality was pretty bad). The bad scenario is they call and ask to inspect something, you hide the bootleg box and show them the amp. They leave, you put the box back into service. Worst case is they show up unannounced and try to get in. My advice would be to sic the dogs on them.

This is probably a good time to point out that I've got middle of the line cable ('tier 3' out of a possible 5), I pay the bills, I do not have any pay channels and I could care less. I can spend two bucks to rent a movie and watch it whenever I want. And pay the extra two bucks late charges because I can never get them back on time.

[SuperNerd]

Well, sheesh. Something was bugging me, so I went back up to the top of the thread, and noticed that Therealbubba, early on, had said:We have a signal amplifier that I am told acts as a buffer between me and the company. ... I have several friends that have had them for years like us, and nobody has been busted yet. Okay, I give up now - if you want me, I'll be looking at traffic in the Pit.

[Cartooniverse]

I agree TOTALLY with Manhatten. Theft if intellectual property is still theft. The fact that no physical harm is done is not relevant.
I'm shocked that this is SO widespread. As a cameraman on films and television shows, I am more than well versed in what it takes to produce quality work. It ain't cheap, and it ain't easy. You want to see "Star Wars:Episode 1" for free, because you are stealing the signal? Then why not teach your kids to sneak into the movies, too? There is no difference at all.

Cartooniverse

"If you want to kiss the sky you'd better learn how to kneel "

[RoboDude]

I've seen ads for plans for various types of homemade descramblers. Does anyone know anything about them?

[AuraSeer]

Yes.
But don't expect to just be handed an instruction manual on how to do it. Theft of cable service is illegal, so giving instructions on it would violate the SDMB regulations; that post or this whole thread would then be removed, and the person posting those instructions would be warned (or perhaps even banned).

Of course, someone might post a link to a website explaining the process. But as a rule, people are willing to pay for instructions on this topic, so the wise ones are loathe to give their knowledge away for free.

------------------
Laugh hard; it's a long way to the bank.

[ZenBeam]

If the amplifier had an isolator (passes signal one direction, and not the other) built into it, they'd be hard pressed to see beyond it. I don't know whether amplifiers routinely include isolators, but it wouldn't surprise me.

The way they'd detect a descrambler would be to use the TDR on several descramblers, and look for characteristic patterns in the return signal that are different from patterns they see from other devices (splitters, VCR, TV, etc.). They could'nt necessarily tell between an illegal descrambler and one of their own, but they KNOW whether you should have one of theirs.

Certainly, the more stuff you hook up, the harder this all becomes.


------------------
It is too clear, and so it is hard to see.

[SuperNerd]

Okay, I found the site I was thinking about: http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/tempest.html - this covers the Tempest project. As a bonus, I also stumbled on: http://www.spyking.com/datascan.html which appears to be a commercially available product. Both of these are concerned with grabbing the contents of a computer monitor from a distance of 'over a 1000 yards' and with no physical connection at all to the targetted machine.

Since a lot of the technology in a TV is pretty much identical to a computer monitor, I'd have to assume that you could build a similar box that allows remote viewing of a TV screen (say, from that cable company van that's parked across the street there). From a purely practical standpoint, this sounds a lot more effective than doing the fingerprint analysis. Just drive slowly down a block at 8 or 9 pm, and see if the houses without descramblers are watching a particular movie ...

[Sam Stone]

On a slightly different topic, I have a moral dilemma for you guys to solve.

I'm in Canada, and I'd like to put up a DSS satellite dish. What I want to get is HBO, Cinemax, etc. Unfortunately, the Canadian government won't let these services sell in Canada, because they are protecting 'Canadian Culture'. I don't recognize the legitimacy of this law, because I don't think the government should be able to control what I see, read, etc.

However, I have no way to pay for the DSS service, because HBO etc won't accept a Canadian subscriber. Am I morally justified in setting up a bootleg satellite receiver?

Basically, I have been offered one of these systems for free because of work I did for someone, but I refused on moral grounds. But I'm having second thoughts, because it infuriates me that the government won't let me purchase a service. Complicating the matter is the fact that I'm sure a lot of programming on a U.S. DSS system is being broadcast for a national audience only, and the DSS distributor may not have international rights to the material.

I'm strongly opposed to intellectual theft, and I would never own a cable descrambler to steal local service (I've been offered one of those as well). But this is slightly different. I'm 'stealing' a product that is not for sale.

I'd appreciate any opinions you guys might have about this.

[Sam Stone]

Back to detecting illegal descramblers - I'm not that familiar with the technical means to descramble cable signals, but if there are local oscillators in the electronics they may be detectable from outside the house. If there is a computer chip that operates at a certain speed, that may be detectable from outside the house, because it will generate some RF noise at that frequency.

I'm skeptical about a TDR being able to tell them much of anything, especially if there are some distribution amps in series (even running the cable in and out of your VCR may isolate the signal past that point, or through your stereo receiver if it has video in/out).

[JoeyBlades]

dhanson,

I'm with you that the Canandian government should not be censoring your viewing behaviors, but I'm curious... are there other legal satellite systems in Canada with the same form factor of a DSS dish? If not, I don't see how you could avoid detection. DSS receivers require line of sight to the satellite, which means your dish is going to be in plain view for all of your nosey neighbors to see and they might just feel a compunction to report you. Also, you still have to pay for a subscriber service and they may not mail your bill to a Canadian address.

[Sam Stone]

Canada has its own DSS system, but it sucks and the content is controlled by Canadian content regulations. But the dishes look exactly the same.

As for subscribing, the only way you used to be able to do it was to rent a mailbox in the U.S. and use that as your mailing address, because the Canadian Government put pressure on the U.S. DSS companies to not allow Canadians to subscribe. Now they've pressured them into checking for these border-area postal boxes or something. I'd probably be looking at getting a black-market descrambler. By the way, they aren't illegal in Canada. I'd be breaking no laws, since by Canadian law it's not theft to grab these signals because they aren't a product available in Canada. So it's not a legal issue. It may still be morally wrong, though, which is my dilemma.

[RoboDude]

Let's see... You're recieving something for free that the company won't let you buy because the government pressured them to stop letting people sidestep a truly perverted law.

I say go for it!

[Bobby O]

Dragging up an old post. I had an illegal cable set up for years in Brooklyn, NY. I moved several times and then out of the state. Several questions: Do different boxes work in different places or can you use any box anywhere? For instance, a General Instruments box came with the service, can you use a Scientific Atlanta box instead (legal or illegal)?

One day I came home and the cable was off. I took apart the box and noticed that it looked rewired, but not rechipped. True? What are the different ways that these boxes are modified?

It turns out that the cable company had come and cut the physical cable line near the juction box, so I ran a new coax into my apartment; would that cause more legal problems for me? I guess so, but what is the charge, vandalism?

Last question, why would cable installers care if you had an illegal set up? It seems to me that they only care about their business, which is installing cable.

[stolichnaya]

Bobby O:Last question, why would cable installers care if you had an illegal set up? It seems to me that they only care about their business, which is installing cable.

You're kidding, right? The cable company charges you a small fee to install, but then they send you a bill every month for the service. They care because if you weren't getting cable illegaly, you'd likely be buying it from them. That's lost revenue, and a good deal of it. I'm not saying that stealing cable is immoral, but the cable companies do care quite a bit because there's a lot of money at stake. There's also the (weaker) argument that stealing cable degrades the signal for paying customers. I'm not sure how that would work.

COMPLETE CHANGE OF SUBJECT AHEAD:

Manhattan said a while ago:I can at least add that the Anti-Theft Cable Task Force will have a web site in early December. If anybody wants the url, bring this thread to the top on about Dec. 10 and I’ll post it.Has this site gone up? I'll do a search, but if you could post a link, that'd be swell.

[Bobby O]

stolichnaya:

I understand why the cable companies don't want you to steal, but everywhere I've lived, the installers are different companies than the cable providers, they're independent contractors.

Even if they are the same company, unless they get a bounty for finding bad boxes, they don't seem like the type to really care. In college, we could pay the installer a little extra on the side and he/she would "hook us up" a la Jim Carrey and Ben Stiller in "The Cable Guy".

[stolichnaya]

My humblest apoologies. An important distinction.

[stolichnaya]

And aapologies also, if you're interested. My hands are quite difficult to control today.

[stolichnaya]

AAUUUGHHH!!!!

[eggo]

Originally posted by Primal:

Dandmb50, I have one of those little "computer boxes" that you saw the cable guy attach to the line. All it basically is is a signal meter. It tests the amount of signal and interference that you are getting. If the signal level isn't high enough, your picture will look like shit and you won't be happy. On the other hand, if it's too high, it will in essence scramble itself ( a condition know as cross-modification, or cross-mod for short). He was most likely just checking to make sure that you had enough rf.


so you mean, if you can drop the signal enough, you will unscramble the pay channels? i could deal with a crappy signal if i got them for free. is there more to it or is it just signal strength?

eggo

[torq]

No, dropping the signal will not unscramble the pay channels. If the signal is too high, all the channels will look "scrambled", but for somewhat different reasons.

[WhiteNight]

Manhattan/Cartooniverse:

Wrongo. Descrambling a signal is not theft, not is copyright violation. Theft is a specific crime. You can feel bad about IP violations if you want, but calling them theft is outright lying.

You got to love it when people say 'you can do it, but you're just rationalizing' and everyone else is suppose to shutup. How about, you can avoid doing it if you wish, but you're just rationalizing a controlling law into something that you can feel good about obeying? Don't like it? Of course not, either way you look at it, it's crap.

The whole point about being a thinking being is being able to decide what to do, if you never question a law, just because it's a law, congrats, you're candidate #1 for supporting an oppressive dictator.


And don't go telling me it's just the rationalization of a thief. The cable room in my building can be opened with a butter knife, and when I was in there watching my line be installed, I saw how filters were applied. I could, if I wanted, have free extended cable. I don't, and it's not for fear of the law.

Why don't you go equate traffic violations to speeding, you'd be wrong, but that doesn't seem to stop you.

dhanson:

As far as I can see, there are no laws stopping you from using a DSS dish, just company regulations, and various legal reasons *they* can't sell it to you. But, having the dish, and using it, shouldn't be illegal. If they're checking for PO boxes, go to one of the stores that uses Apt/Suite #s for their boxes.

Technical stuff:

A TDR could detect different equipment, and theoretically, they could detect a signature from various equipment. But, I don't think a TDR would be used, being a specific device used to find cable breaks. What they'd find is that the signal stopped some distance inside your house.

As for the cable company spying on you with a tempest device... I wouldn't be suprised if you could sue them for it, there have to be a few laws violated by monitoring what people are doing like that.

And, am I the only one who didn't sign an agreement when getting either cable or phone service? They hooked both with only my landlord here. I guess because it doesn't really cost them anything (asside from one month of potential long distance calls) to provide the service, they're willing to take the risk of losing a month of service, especially because they know I'll very likely be a long-term customer (How many people don't have a phone?)

But, it means I didn't sign anything agreeing to let them inspect the equipment, or giving them any right to claim access to my house.

I did sign something when getting the cable modem, but that was all to do with the internet service, and the cable modem. For instance, I'm technically not allowed to move the cable modem, if I want it on the other side of the desk, I have to call them.

Watching the install of that was funny, I no longer have any worry that they could detect non-standard wiring, unless you managed to wire the cable into a ham radio or something.

[handy]

Isn't it safer to descramble satellite tv because the dish can't send the signal up that you are hooked up?

[Felinecare]

Since this is a cable thread, thought I'd include a couple true stories proving the customers aren't always out to rip off the company, or When Bad/Incompetant Employees Happen to Conglomerates.

Back in the day, when cable is first out, my parents sign up. They get HBO to see what the fuss is about, decide it's not worth it, cancel.

I come home to visit. Channel-flipping, I say *I thought you cancelled the HBO* *We did* *It's still here*. After more channel-flipping, I figure out that a non-local PBS station has been cancelled instead.

Fast forward several years. They get a VCR, and blow out the cable trying to install it. Cable guy comes and fixes everything. Doesn't say a word, but the HBO has now vanished. Parents wait to see if an back invoice will appear, but one never does.

Shorter story:

Two friends of mine move, get cable installed. Two cable guys show up at 9:00 a.m. Husband being a hospitable sort, asks if they want something to drink. Fills an order for two beers. Does not solicit for extra services in any way. Ends up with a lot more channels than requested.

Just in case you needed a reason to be polite.

[torq]

I _think_ that satellite scrambling is more sophisticated than cable scrambling (most cable scrambling systems seem to involve monkeying around with the sync signal; I believe many satellite scrambling systems involve actual encryption of the entire datastream).

So: safer, yes, but also much more difficult.

[RonaldBarnhardt]

Primal cable guru wrote:
Therealbubba: Check the deed /lease to your home. Utility Companies are allowed on your property for the purpose of maintaing service (read as repair / upgrading / etc...) Depending on who it is, they are indeed allowed in your home. Such as cable installers. So if you deny them access, they deny you service. That simple. and no, you do not "own" the signal once it hits your property any more than you "own" the electricity that runs through the lines on your property. a silly notion, really.

I checked my deed and they do not have the right to enter my property to snoop around for an illegal box. They can do whatever they want on the easement, but I, the property owner, own the line on my property and the signal it carries. You're right, they're free to shut it off, but not free to trespass. A silly notion indeed to think that a cable emergency would exist requiring entering my home without permission or a search warrant.

[CurtC]

This thread has the lowest signal-to-noise ratio of any I've ever seen. I'd like to take a shot at some of the misperceptions I've read. By the way, remember when The Simpsons had a guy illegally connect them to cable? When they asked if it was immoral, he gave them a pamphlet - "So you've decided to steal cable...".

I'm not involved with the TV cable industry (I don't even have cable service at home), but I'm as close to being an expert on RF measurements as you're going to find around here.

Sending current/voltage spikes - you really think the cable company is going to take a risk of damaging your TV and their equipment by sending a hundred-volt spike down a line, where sensitive electronics are trying to pick up signals in the millionths of a volt? Get serious...

Detector trucks - a truck couldn't tell the difference between different types of coaxial cable. I don't know how the illegal boxes work, but if they contain a local oscillator it's possible someone could pick up that your LO is at a different frequency from the company's units. However, I think most illegal boxes are passive, and would not put out any signals strong enough to be snooped.

T-shirt/pizza offer for illegal viewers only - surely no one here really believes this. I'm getting images of Homer going to the police station to claim his motorboat.

Time Domain Reflectometer - this measurement technique is great for finding the distance to cable discontinuities. And it could tell the technician that too much of the signal is bouncing back into their network, which could cause multipath problems for other customers. But it's not sensitive enough to look for signatures of equipment inside the house, especially considering that there are probably splitters in-between. And someone mentioned that a TDR did a "complex frequency sweep" - it doesn't. A TDR sends a fast, low-voltage pulse down the line and then waits for the reflections of that pulse to come back to it, sort of like how a radar works. When I say "pulse", what I mean is that it goes from one constant voltage to another, and makes the transition in a very short time. In general, what you would want is for the pulse to be completely absorbed in your house, so none of it would come back to cause them trouble. If there is a bad connection somewhere, what you'd see is that a significant amount of the pulse would come back, and the time it took to do so would tell you how far down the line the reflection occurred. The pulse travels at the speed of light divided by the square root of the dielectric constant of the cable's internal insulating material, which comes out to about 210mm (eight inches) per nanosecond.

[manhattan]

stolichnaya: No, it’s not up yet. In fact, the whole group seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth. As best I can tell, most of the "task force’s" duties have been absorbed by the Cable Signal Theft Department of the National Cable Television Association (http://www.ncta.com) . They are working on a page, too, but won’t put it on the net until they firm up all the recent local laws. Sorry I couldn’t help.


WhiteNight: From 47 USC 553 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/553.html) : (a) (1) No person shall intercept or receive or assist in intercepting or receiving any communications service offered over a cable system, unless specifically authorized to do so by a cable operator or as may otherwise be specifically authorized by law. (b) (1) Any person who willfully violates subsection (a)(1) of this section shall be fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned for not more than 6 months, or both. In addition to being civilly liable for copyright violations, damages and similar (covered under section 3, as it happens), theft of a cable signal is, uh, theft. It is also a separate theft under state law in each and every of the 50 States. In your corner of the world (which is really just cold storage until the US needs the natural resources anyway), it is also theft. And the reason theft is illegal is because it is morally wrong.

Your inability to acknowledge that theft is in and of itself morally wrong is just about 100% of everything I need to know about your character.

The next time you call me a liar, please do so in the Pit where I can respond appropriately.

Putz.

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Livin' on Tums, vitamin E and Rogaine

[SuperNerd]

CurtC: Thanks for the intelligent input, and I love the signal to noise comment. I was never completely satisfied with the whole TDR business, you've helped.In general, what you would want is for the pulse to be completely absorbed in your house, so none of it would come back to cause them trouble. If there is a bad connection somewhere, what you'd see is that a significant amount of the pulse would come back, and the time it took to do so would tell you how far down the line the reflection occurred.
Okay, enlighten us a bit more here - seems to me you'll get some small reflection at each connection (mostly 'cause they're not perfect?). What happens to the pulse when it gets into the equipment, though? Does it get absorbed by the electronics; if so, does it reflect if the equipment is off?

WhiteNight:As for the cable company spying on you with a tempest device... I wouldn't be suprised if you could sue them for it, there have to be a few laws violated by monitoring what people are doing like that.
I'm not sure I'd agree with this totally, but that's an excellent point and it probably would be a legal rat's nest. Enough potential trouble to make them decide not to do it. (CurtC, if your reference to the detector truck was back to this point, my vision was to have it look at the image on the screen, not the signals radiated back out by the descrambler. It would be using the IF signals in the TV itself and wouldn't care less about any other equipment in the room.)

Bobby O: consider that part of the installers job might be to make sure that you're only getting the cable that you're paying for - they might have a duty to report any violations. Granted, a couple beers might make them less diligent but why take the chance? Here (Western Canada), the installers are employees that work for the provider, so it's not an issue. Personally, I'd never even on a bet consider hooking up a cable they've cut. Even after the $1,000 fine and possible jail time you'd probably never get legal cable again in your life.

manhattan:Putz.Agreed, thank you.

Finally, can anyone tell me why this thread started up again after a month and a half? Answer that one and you've understood everything ...

[rottybabe]

CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHERE I CAN GET 1 OF THESE BOXES. I LIVE IN NEW JERSEY. PLEASE HELP.

[Nekosoft]

Just go down to your local cable company and ask 'em! I'm sure they'll hook you up.
--
Dojo. Casino. It's all in the mind.

[RonaldBarnhardt]

The courts ruled recently that it is illegal to download a program allowing you to copy DVD.

It is estimated by the cable industry that up to half of all people watching PPV events are pirating the program.

I don't understand why the cable industry isn't more aggressive at doing something about this so called problem. Why aren't artists demanding that the industry take measures at protecting their intellectual property? If it is illegal to own a program allowing you to copy DVD discs, why won't the cable industry try to petition the courts to follow suit?

And if that were to occur, would the cable industry cut their rates in half?

I understand that when the government deregulated the phone industry, we were allowed to own our own phone equipment, and the same law allows us to own our own cable boxes, but I don't see how owning a box with a descrambling chip that's only purpose is to descramble premium channels and PPV is protected.

[Bobby O]

SuperNerd:

I understand everything. Well, I know why this post was dragged up after going away for a while. I was looking for a topic about the movie "Ravenous" and did a search for the word. A few posts were returned and this one caught my eye. After reading it, I had a few questions. And, manhattan said that if we brought this post back, a link would be provided, so I brought it back.

Now, since I understand all, if you want my opinion on the unified field stuff . . .

[RonaldBarnhardt]

From Manny:
WhiteNight: From 47 USC 553 :

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(a) (1) No person shall intercept or receive or assist in intercepting or receiving any communications service offered over a cable system, unless specifically authorized to do so by a cable operator or as may otherwise be specifically authorized by law.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(b) (1) Any person who willfully violates subsection (a)(1) of this section shall be fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned for not more than 6 months, or both.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In addition to being civilly liable for copyright violations, damages and similar (covered under section 3, as it happens), theft of a cable signal is, uh, theft. It is also a separate theft under state law in each and every of the 50 States. In your corner of the world (which is really just cold storage until the US needs the natural resources anyway), it is also theft. And the reason theft is illegal is because it is morally wrong.

If I have the cable company come install basic service, I will still recieve scrambled premium channels with sound. I did not ask to have access to these channels, the cable company chooses to send them to me. Say I want to listen in to the audio portion of a heavy weight championship fight. Am I stealing? The cable company would say yes, but they're not willing to take the measures needed to stop my theft.

My feeling is the industry sees this as a fact of life and is unwilling to take the necessary action to stop this.

Manhattan: You are totally correct that theft is theft. But I think the cable industry has to bear some responsibility for making it so easy to steal the signals and the artists have to be more aggressive in demanding that the cable industry clean up it's own act.

[ignatiusjreilly]

Curt C: I've never seen the free pizza scam, but it makes perfect sense to me. Not that they can only send signals to the illegal boxes, but that they send the signal to all boxes via the PPV signal and then nab the folks who call in to claim the reward but aren't on the approved list. When I used to have cable (more on that later), the cable company identified my by my telephone number. I didn't even have to do anything - just call the special phone number for whatever PPV I wanted and the caller-ID device on their end would oblige my request automatically. Certainly they could set up a similar scam, send free pizzas to the folks they know and send trouble to the folks who shouldn't be seeing the message...

RonaldBarnhardt: Maybe if it weren't so damn expensive, more people would be legitimate about it. Sure, it's a downward spiral (less honest people means a higher price), but there has to be a connection.

Handy, Torq, et al: After getting fed up with being charged excessive rates, getting nickel and dimed out the ass, getting double-billed TWICE for the said charges, and then wading through atrocious customer service, I bought a dish this summer and have been extremely happy.

You might want to check out the message boards at www.dbsdish.com (http://www.dbsdish.com) - you'll get plenty of answers to your questions.

As far as my attempts at answering, here goes -

The satellite system works via a unique elctronic access card. Every system is sold with a card - the number of the card is how the DSS computer identifies your system. When you order a PPV event, the computer adds your card number to the general signal stream that's broadcast to everyone and then your decoder recognizes your number within the signal, sees it's authorized, and then shows the program. It's actually pretty simple.

There are cards out there (I've never seen one) that are supposedly "universal" and when recognized by your decoder, they automatically decode everything on the signal. I'm not sure where these cards come from - I think they're authorized by the provider for various reasons. The general rap though, is that they only last for about three months and then the provider changes the universal code and your card becomes worthless unless you want to pay someone (again, a shady rumor) to reprogram your card. These things are on Ebay all the time.

DBSdish.com will usually close any thread that gets started about these cards because the guy who runs the site wants to stay in good graces with the DSS providers. If anyone here knows more about it, I would love to hear what you know as I've never been privy to a detailed discussion.

I'm sure I got some details wrong, but that's the general idea.

JMG

[Max Torque]

A friend of mine had a 'device', designed by an uncle of his. Plug the device into the IN line on your cable box, flip the switch, wait 10 seconds, disconnect. Then, attach a special filter between the incoming line and your box.

Presto. All channels, all the time, including Pay-Per-View. The device apparently erased the EEPROM inside the box, effectively making it forget what you weren't supposed to get. The filter blocked signals from the cable company that reprogrammed the box to get only the channels you paid for.

After about a month, the box would lose all channels, though, and would have to be zapped again.

I haven't tried the device since my cable company switched box-types. I'm not sure if it'll fry the new ones.

Also, about TDRs: the most recent posts, comparing TDRs to radar, are correct. But whoever said it required a pair of conductors is incorrect; in 1993 I used a fiber TDR, which sent out a light pulse to detect signal strength along the length of the fiber-optic line. Since light's so fast, it couldn't detect a break within about 30 meters of the TDR, but still, mighty handy. Splices showed up as funky breaks on the oscilloscope-esque display, accompanied by a slight drop in signal strength. A TDR can show you where splices and breaks are in a cable, but nothing else. It's a line-quality tester.

[BoBettie]

Well, I tried to read all the repsonses before I posted, but I just couldn't make it thought them all. My brother in law works for Time Warner cable, and he said they don't check for illegal boxes, and don't give a rats ass who has them.

They even get disgruntled exes calling and ratting each other out, still they do nothing. They can't prove how long soemeone has had the thing, they can't spend the money in legal fees to prosecute/sue people, and they have no special equipment AT ALL.

That's his story, and he's worked there forever- I'm willing to bet he knows what he's talking about.
Zette

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Not enough and you're gonna die...
Click here for some GOOD news for a change (http://www.binghamtonpress.com/binghamtonnews/local/Sanews5.html) Zettecity (http://www.angelfire.com/ny3/zettecity/index.html)

[RoboDude]

---------------------------------------------
It is estimated by the cable industry that up to half of all people watching PPV events are pirating the program.
---------------------------------------------
Well, what do they expect? Some of those events can cost $50-100.

---------------------------------------------
I don't understand why the cable industry isn't more aggressive at doing something about this so called problem.
---------------------------------------------

There's not much they can legally do about it, except for certain methods of detecting illegal DIY cable hookups.


I've seen auctions on ebay for CD-ROMs with many different plans to build various types of descramblers. (They generally come with other fun information) Does anyone know anything about this?

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Life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think.

[Ken]

One the DSS system, to rent a movie, you just use the remote to click in the order and the box sends out a message to the company through and attached phone line, and you get the program and a bill later on. A friend claims you can get movies for free by just disconnecting the phone line and then ordering. My question is: is it possible that the manufacturers of the box are so stupid that the box doesn't have to successfully contact the company to display the movies?

[ignatiusjreilly]

The DSS box doesn't call in every time you order. It calls in the middle of the night. It also calls every few days to "check-in" with the computer and let DSS know that everything is A-OK with your system. If DSS doesn't hear from your system it eventually puts a block on your account (sent via the dish) that tells your system that it's ineligible for PPV.

I think that your friend's tactic would work for a few days but then DSS would send a signal to his box to block out PPV until it calls back. Then, all of his purchases are downloaded to DSS and he gets a bill that must be paid before block will be lifted.

[chetn2]

Originally posted by Therealbubba:
We've had a box for years, getting 4 pay-per-views and 12 premiums. We pay $30 for basic service. We have a signal amplifier that I am told acts as a buffer between me and the company. We also have a bullet protector.

The same law that allows private ownership of telephone equipment protects the ownership of cable equipment. However, using it without the companies permission is illegal.

I've been told that homeowners own the signal once it crosses their property line. As long as I don't hook up the cable myself, all they can do is shut me off. If they don't want the pay-per-view signal in my house, they shouldn't send it to me. I'm not sure how true that is, but no cable guy's getting in my house without a cop with a search warrent with him.

I have several friends that have had them for years like us, and nobody has been busted yet.

I heard a mail order company is selling DSS dishes with decoders that get all 160 channels for $700. Anyone out there heard about this or have one?

Therealbubba

[WhiteNight]

Manhattan: In addition to being civilly liable for copyright violations, damages and similar (covered under section 3, as it happens), theft of a cable signal is, uh, theft.

Merriam Webster - Theft: 1a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it

Theft, by the definitions I've seen, is the taking of something with the intent to deprive the owner of that thing.

Copying of information 'property' doesn't deny the owner the use of that property, so it's not theft.

Manhattan: Your inability to acknowledge that theft is in and of itself morally wrong is just about 100% of everything I need to know about your character.

I didn't say that theft wasn't wrong, you don't seem to actually read the message.

I said that calling piracy morally wrong and equating it with theft, just because there's a law against it, is silly. To me, morals and laws are seperate. There are laws against actions I consider morally fine, and many actions I consider morally corrupt are perfectly legal. Thus is I was to base my actions purely on laws, I would, I feel, be morally wrong.

I choose to decide for myself what is right and what is wrong. That is what I said in my original message. To do otherwise would seem to be sheep-like, easily led into things which I'd justify by saying that I was "just following orders."

If I choose not to steal cable, it's not because someone told me not to and I'm afraid of getting caught, it's because I choose not to, for my own reasons. That seems more sincere than someone willing to do anything as long as it's technically legal.


Copyrights were invented to give authors a legal reason to publish, by preventing the legal copying of their work for a set period of time. In trade for this legal protection from the people, the author would concede the right for people to use their work after a period of time, long enough to make it worth their while to publish, but short enough to allow free flow of ideas.

To me, this was all well and good, until copyright terms kept getting extended, until now they're virtually one-sided. The author gets legal protection for their work, and society doesn't reap any compensation for this protection during the lifetime of anyone alive when the work was created. To me, this is a law that failed.

Being that I see the law as morally right, I feel it's up to me to make up my own mind on this issue. I feel that if we all 'owned' our ideas, and nobody could use an idea that someone else had first, we'd stagnate, had we ever accomplished anything to stagnate in the first place. Ideas aren't created in a vacumn. To give exclusive rights to the first person with a specific idea, without regard for the ideas they used to get there, seems wrong.

So, I base my actions in this area on harm. If my actions harm someone, then I would consider them to be wrong. If my actions don't harm someone, then I see no problem.

If I download an MP3 of a song that I'd never buy, I don't cost the artist anything. I don't even subtract from the money they might have made, because I wouldn't buy music I'd never heard.

If my actions in dealing with the music I already own are technically illegal, oh well. I feel that by paying for a CD I gain the right to use the data encoded on there in any way I see fit, except for distributing it with the intention or likely posibility of reducing sales. If it's technically illegal for me to rip my CDs and store them on the hard drive, then I'm perfectly content to be breaking that law, because it's one I don't feel is just.

Call that the empty rationalizations of a thief, if you must, but look at it the other way. If you blindly follow the law instead of your heart, you're an easily led automaton.

You haven't shown me that piracy *is* theft, so I don't feel you've shown that my views on piracy are relevant to my views on theft.

Meanwhile, your snap judgements and high and mighty attitude say a lot about your character, as does your willingness to be led.

Feel free to start a thread about this in the pit if you wish. Mention it here and I'll stop by. If you have anything interesting to say, I may even respond.

[quadell]

Manhattan,

What do you call it when someone posts repeated moralistic diatribes that judge others by his own set of morals? It's called witnessing, and it belongs in the GD.

If someone asked a question regrding sex with her boyfriend, and I came on to say "Sex outside of marriage is SIN. It's the same as murder in God's eyes.", then I'd be out of line. So are you. You want to debate ethics, then take it somewhere appropriate.

I'd expect the average Joe to post off topic, in the wrong conf, just unable to resist the urge to condemn other people's characters. But you're a moderator. You're supposed to be setting an example here.

(And no, I've never used a cable descrambler.)

Your Quadell

[Rhythmdvl]

Before this gets shunted over to GD, I'd like to ask a GQ-ish type question. Well, make that a slight GQ-ish hijack. Forgetting for the moment legal and ethical questions, why are there no descrablers for the desktop PC?




------------------
Once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places
if you look at it right…

[Rhythmdvl]

I thought I posted this response last night, but can't find it anywhere. I even did a search on my name, found a link to this thread, but still don't see it. Humph. Anyway, here is my bit of question…


Before this gets shunted over to GD, I'd like to ask a GQ-ish type question. Well, make that a slight GQ-ish hijack. Forgetting for the moment legal and ethical questions, why are there no descrablers for the desktop PC?




------------------
Once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places
if you look at it right…

[Rhythmdvl]

Well, that was weird. My apologies for the double post.

Originally posted by handy:

Isn't it safer to descramble satellite tv because the dish can't send the signal up that you are hooked up?

actually it is not safer.

true, the dish cannot send up to the satellite, but the satellite can send down. the satellite can scan for "fixed" access cards.

access cards tell the satellite reciever what channels you can recieve, but the older cards can be fixed, called H cards, allowing you to recieve all the channels. directv learned of this and released the HU card (about a year ago), which to my knowledge, has not been hacked yet.

the subscribers who were signed up prior to a year ago who were using the H card all recieved HU cards in the mail. well, at least most of them.

since there are some genuine subscribers who are still using the H card, directv has not turned off the H feed yet, which is why people are still hacking the H cards.

as for them costing $700, that's a little high. they sell the H cards on ebay for about $300 to $350. most of them are just card only, and you would have to take them to someone so they can "fix" it for about $50.

Originally posted by handy:

Isn't it safer to descramble satellite tv because the dish can't send the signal up that you are hooked up?

actually, it is not safer.

true, the dish cannot send up to the satellite, but the satellite can send down. the satellite scans for "fixed" access cards, and if it finds one, it kills the feed to that satellite, along with the access card.

access cards tells the satellite reciever what channels you can and can't recieve. however, the old access cards were hacked and allowed access to all the channels; known as H cards. directv learned of this, and as a result, released the HU card, which to my knowledge, has not been hacked yet (on a side note, there have been a total of 4 different access cards. the two cards before the H card have all been hacked, so directv has killed the feed to any of those cards trying to recieve).

any subscribers prior to a year ago who were using the H card all recieved HU cards in the mail to use instead. well, mostly all of them. either because they have moved or just don't know how to install the card.

because of this, directv is still allowing the H feed along with the HU feed (the H feed probably won't last much longer though, since it has been more than a year). and because there is still an H feed, the H cards are still being hacked.

but the satellite constantly scans for fixed H cards, and kills them immediately once they are found. hackers have done everything to prevent this, like writing software on the card that tells the satellite it is an HU card, or enables the card so that if the power is turned on and off, it can reset it, and a whole plethora of other things.

as for them costing $700, that is a little high. they sell on ebay for about $300 to $350, most of them are just sold as card only, unhacked. you would have to take them to someone to fix it for about $50. or you can do it yourself if you have the right equipment, which you can buy in the back of those magazines.

(oh well, i revised it, and ended up posting twice.) =)

Originally posted by quadell:
Manhattan,

What do you call it when someone posts repeated moralistic diatribes that judge others by his own set of morals? It's called witnessing, and it belongs in the GD.Actually, I personally call it "dredging up a post from before I became a moderator." ;)

That said, the question of whether obtaining cable signals or MP3s or software or whatever without the permission of the owner of the intellectual property and outside the valid legal exceptions qualifies for the term "theft" is not a debatable premise. Nor does the conclusion require a moral judgment of any sort. It is settled fact. This discussion will apply both to this thread and the various MP3 threads in which the same silly and factually incorrect claim is being made regarding the definition of "theft."

Let's take a quick peek at the 7th edition of Black's Law Dictionary. Under "Theft" we find two definitions, the first of which is as follows:The felonious taking and removing of another's personal property with the intent of depriving the true owner of it; larceny. Using this definition alone (or worse still, a regular dictionary definition) one may try to assuage his/her (hopefully) guilty conscious by rationalizing that since the intellectual property owner still retains the same (infinite) number of copies of his or her work, the misappropriator has not committed theft but rather some amorphous copyright technicality. But they are factually wrong. Let's go to the second definition.Broadly, any act or instance of stealing, including larceny, burglary, embezzlement and false pretenses.Stealing=theft. This is a pretty simple concept for all but those who choose to believe that they are stealing (or "violating copyright", or whatever) without committing theft. But just in case any doubt remains, lets go to that most glorious of all things, the new word in Black's Law Dictionary, a rare occurrence that occasions dancing in the streets outside of West Publishing and much grimacing by lawyers who have to go out and plunk down another $45 to stay current.cybertheft. The act of using an online computer service, such as one on the Internet, to steal someone else's property or to interfere with someone else's use and enjoyment of property. Examples of cybertheft are (snip) interfering with a copyright by wrongfully sending protected material over the internet.Has the copyright law been expanded too far in the property creators' favor? Great Debate. Should misappropriating a piece if intellectual property be "theft?" Great Debate. Is it "theft?" General Question. The answer is "Yes". If that hurts the sensitive feelings of a few thieves, well too bad. As Cecil says, we do not vote on the facts.


[Note: This message has been edited by manhattan]

[Billdo]

Just for the hell of it, I'll add a bit of law to this discussion. New York Penal Law section 165.15 (http://www.assembly.state.ny.us/cgi-bin/claws?law=82&art=38) provides that

A person is guilty of theft of services when:

. . .

4. With intent to avoid payment by himself or another person of the
lawful charge for any telecommunications service, including, without
limitation, cable television service, or any gas, steam, sewer, water,
electrical, telegraph or telephone service which is provided for a
charge or compensation, he obtains or attempts to obtain such service
for himself or another person or avoids or attempts to avoid payment
therefor by himself or another person by means of (a) tampering or
making connection with the equipment of the supplier, whether by
mechanical, electrical, acoustical or other means, or (b) offering for
sale or otherwise making available, to anyone other than the provider
of a telecommunications service for such service provider`s own use in
the provision of its service, any telecommunications decoder or
descrambler, a principal function of which defeats a mechanism of
electronic signal encryption, jamming or individually addressed
switching imposed by the provider of any such telecommunications
service to restrict the delivery of such service, or (c) any
misrepresentation of fact which he knows to be false, or (d) any other
artifice, trick, deception, code or device. For the purposes of this
subdivision the telecommunications decoder or descrambler described in
paragraph (b) above or the device described in paragraph (d) above
shall not include any non-decoding and non-descrambling channel
frequency converter or any television receiver type-accepted by the
federal communications commission. In any prosecution under this
subdivision, proof that telecommunications equipment, including,
without limitation, any cable television converter, descrambler, or
related equipment, has been tampered with or otherwise intentionally
prevented from performing its functions of control of service delivery
without the consent of the supplier of the service, or that
telecommunications equipment, including, without limitation, any cable
television converter, descrambler, receiver, or related equipment, has
been connected to the equipment of the supplier of the service without
the consent of the supplier of the service, shall be presumptive
evidence that the resident to whom the service which is at the time
being furnished by or through such equipment has, with intent to avoid
payment by himself or another person for a prospective or already
rendered service, created or caused to be created with reference to
such equipment, the condition so existing. A person who tampers with
such a device or equipment without the consent of the supplier of the
service is presumed to do so with intent to avoid, or to enable
another to avoid, payment for the service involved. In any prosecution
under this subdivision, proof that any telecommunications decoder or
descrambler, a principal function of which defeats a mechanism of
electronic signal encryption, jamming or individually addressed
switching imposed by the provider of any such telecommunications
service to restrict the delivery of such service, has been offered for
sale or otherwise made available by anyone other than the supplier of
such service shall be presumptive evidence that the person offering
such equipment for sale or otherwise making it available has, with
intent to avoid payment by himself or another person of the lawful
charge for such service, obtained or attempted to obtain such service
for himself or another person or avoided or attempted to avoid payment
therefor by himself or another person; . . .

Or, in short, use cable TV descramblers is the crime known as Theft of Services.

------------------
You don't have a thing to worry about. I'll have the jury eating out of my hand. Meanwhile, try to escape.

Sig by Wally M7, master signature architect to the SDMB

[WhiteNight]

Manhattan: [...] guilty conscious by rationalizing [...]

Irrelevant. The beliefs of the participants in the argument have no bearing on the facts.

Manhattan: But they are factually wrong.

Well, no. Their 'facts' disagree with your 'facts'. That suggests that one or both parties aren't using real facts.

Manhattan: Broadly, any act or[f] [...]

I think the problem here is in 'Broadly'. This is a specific case we're talking about. I don't see how your generality outweighs my specifics...

If theft is the removal, with intent to deprive the owner of, property; generally all removal of property the owner doesn't want, then that means that theft is "the removal, with intent to deprive the owner of, property", the following phrase just indicates that most cases of property removal are with intent to deprive.

Manhattan: Black's Law Dictionary
Manhattan: cybertheft. [...]

So, the fact that there is a practice referred to as cybertheft means that it's real theft and not something else mistakenly labelled?

You're using a fallacy here, appeal to the masses or unworthy authority.

The fact that enough people say something for a phrase to be coined doesn't mean that the phrase is accurate. Witness the "African-American" GD thread where A-A is being used to describe Haitians and Egyptians are excluded. The popularity of something doesn't indicate that it's correct.

Similarly, you are refering to a law journal, in defining a spoken term. The law journal is not a noted authority on the usage of the English language.

Manhattan: As Cecil says, we do not vote on the facts.

No we don't, so if you can show me something I believe to be a fact, I won't argue that fact.

You haven't shown me a fact. You've shown me conjecture by from various sources, none of which seem to be authorities on the subject.

I still think "theft" is pretty clearly defined as excluding unlawful use of information property, actually means something else.

Note that I don't disagree that copying a copyright work is unlawful, I just disagree that it's theft. And yes, I think this is a very important decision.

And finally, where do you get off arguing with the authority of Cecil? It's not like he's personally checked your facts and given them the stamp of his wisdom.

If you had posted a relevant fact, I wouldn't be debating it, much less calling a vote on it. I don't feel you did post such a thing though.

(Yes, I'm sure your fact can beat up my fact.)

Billdo: I'll add a bit of law to this discussion.

I'll say. A big bit. But it doesn't prove anything except that "theft of service" is a term used to refer to unauthorized duplication of a cable-TV signal. It no more indicates actual theft than "piracy" in the same context refers to salty sea dogs waving cutlasses.

The term of theft was defined in our language before the New York penal code existed, so I think the authority of a dictionary is more relevant here.

[quadell]

Manhattan said:

> Actually, I personally call it "dredging
> up a post from before I became a
> moderator." ;)

Oh. Okay, that makes more sense.

Incidentally, I wasn't referring to your assertation that copyright violation = theft as being witnessing. I was talking about staements like:

> Your inability to acknowledge that theft
> is in and of itself morally wrong is just
> about 100% of everything I need to know
> about your character.

and

> You are committing a crime, violating the
> social contract and debasing your own
> sense of morality for a few bucks a month.

Your Quadell

[Billdo]

Originally posted by WhiteNight:
I'll say. A big bit. But it doesn't prove anything except that "theft of service" is a term used to refer to unauthorized duplication of a cable-TV signal. It no more indicates actual theft than "piracy" in the same context refers to salty sea dogs waving cutlasses.

The term of theft was defined in our language before the New York penal code existed, so I think the authority of a dictionary is more relevant here.

OK, boys and girls, a bit of legal history here.

United States criminal law is derived from the common law of Merrie Olde England that was formed centuries ago. Under common law the crime of larceny (more commonly known as theft) was defined, as mentioned before as "the felonious taking and removing of another's personal property with the intent of depriving the true owner of it."

Now this definition was formed centuries ago when almost all of the personal property that people owned was tangible personal property, things that you could see, feel and touch -- pigs, wagons, gold coins, tools, crops, etc. When all personal property (which means everything except real estate) is tangible things, the definition neatly covers most types of theft.

Roll forward to the 19th, 20th and now 21st centuries. A large part of the value in the economy is in intangible personal property and services (along with tangible stuff that is delivered by metered pipeline like water or gas). When these things started getting valuable, surprise, people started taking them without authorization. Well, the people were taking these things soon made the argument that they didn't fit into the 16th century definition of larceny, so they couldn't be convicted.

In response, legislatures pretty darn quickly enacted theft of services laws. Yes, they are not the common-law definition of larceny, but they're theft nonetheless.

Let me give some other examples of things criminalized in the New York theft of services statute (http://www.assembly.state.ny.us/cgi-bin/claws?law=82&art=38):

1) obtaining a service through a credit card known to be stolen;
2) with intent to avoid payment for resturant or hotel payment, avoids doing so by stealth or misrepresentation (the old dine-and-dash);
3) with intent to avoid payment for rail, bus or other transportation service, avoids such payment by "force, intimidation, stealth, deception or mechanical
tampering, or by unjustifiable failure or refusal to pay";
4) steals "telecommunications service, including, without limitation, cable television service, or any gas, steam, sewer, water, electrical, telegraph or telephone service" as quoted at length above;
5) sells, distributes or uses without consent a telecommunications access device (a phone card, etc);
6) tampers with a meter with intent to avoid payment for a metered service;
7) "knowingly accepts or receives the use and benefit of service, including gas, steam or electricity service, which should pass through a meter but has been diverted therefrom";
8) with intent to illegally obtain supply of gas, electric, etc., tampers with the supply system;
9) with intent to avoid payment to a theatre, concert hall, or ski area, he obtains admission thereto;
10) with intent to derive a commercial or other benefit, diverts the "labor in the employ of another person, or of business, commercial or industrial equipment or facilities of another person"; or
11) With intent to avoid payment for use of a computer or computer service which is
provided for a charge or compensation, uses such a system.

OK, boys and girls, all of these things are theft. No, they are not exactly the same sort of theft (common-law larceny) as making off with your neighbor's chicken, but they are theft nonetheless. Just because the world has advanced and created new types of goods and services that don't fit into the centuries-old definition of common-law larceny, does not make these any less of a crime or any less wrong.

So, WhiteNight, you are correct that "term of theft was defined in our language before the New York penal code existed," but that does not mean that the term (or more importantly the law) defining theft cannot change meaning in response to technological change.



------------------
You don't have a thing to worry about. I'll have the jury eating out of my hand. Meanwhile, try to escape.

Sig by Wally M7, master signature architect to the SDMB

[DJScherr]

About the Satellite Descamblers: The only system you can do it with is the DirecTV systems. And then you can buy a system premade but they don't last too long because of DirecTV sending stuff down the pipes. The other way is to make sure you have an older card in your reciever, then program the card with your computer and a card programmer. I won't get into any details (I have never done it so I can't get into details) but if you want more info check out alt.dss.hack

[WhiteNight]

Billdo, I do agree that everything you quoted falls under Theft of Service, but theft of service then is inappropriately named. There are many words that would work for 'taking' intellectual property and still leaving it for the owner, theft is not one of them. It's the one that has a dictionary definition that specifically rules it out.

I know people use inappropriate terms. People call unlawful copying "Piracy" as it it involved ships and cannons. That doesn't mean they're right, it just means the software/music industry was pretty successful in getting people to use an emotionally charged word for something that they don't like.