SeXXXy Christians

[Homer]

Got your attention, eh?

Where did Christianity get it's view that masturbation is wrong?

Also, I have read that masturbation or sex tends to increase the amount of acne someone has. Any support for this?

--Tim

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You can't accidently create a handicapped baby whilst smoking pot.

[Nanno]

Homer !! we need to get a life!!

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whatever for?

[Crusoe]

Answer to part one:


Composers: David Howman & Andre Jacquemin
Authors: Michael Palin & Terry Jones
From the Movie 'The Meaning of Life'

DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.
I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,
Because
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.
MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.
MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.
PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!
NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.
EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!


Answer to part two:

Well, I've always had great skin...never really suffered from acne at all.

Um.

Not that I've ever "shaken hands with the unemployed".

In any way.

Obviously.


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Crusoe Takes A Trip (http://www.fervent.co.uk/)

[Homer]

Not that I've ever "shaken hands with the unemployed".

ROTFLMAO! That's the greatest euphemism I've ever heard!

--Tim


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You can't accidently create a handicapped baby whilst smoking pot.

[Anti Pro]

Homer, first, you might want to be careful with such sweeping generalities. I'm a Christian, and I don't believe masturbation is necessarily wrong , and can be helpful for issues of self control.

Things usually become wrong when it becomes some kind of priority in your life. That applies to masturbation, exercise, eating, and work. All of those things are okay things, it is getting them out of proportion.

Many religious folk hone in on the verse in the Bible where the tradition in Jewish homes once was, if an older brother dies without an heir, the next oldest takes his place with the widow to sire a child for his dead brother . In this story none of the brothers would do so, and it came to the last brother who masturbated on the ground. He was killed NOT because of the masturbation, but because of the disobedience and defiance.

The story is a good one, it is in Genesis, chapter 38.
-----------
Judy

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"Um, according to who? Nothing more than a high brow troll, though occasionally the bi polar personality swung in a constructive direction on innocuous topics." Omniscient

[Jophiel]

Part of the basis for masturbation being sinful is that lust is considered sinful. Since lusting for someone, or fantasizing about someone, is a typical part of masturbation (who masturbates and thinks about wood paneling? If you do, I don't want to know) masturbation itself became a physical aspect of lust or sexual impurity. Exactly when this bacame "law" in the Church is something I don't know, and likewise not all Protestant faiths teach it, although the Cathholic Church still does.

As for acne, I don't have any data but I'm guessing that it falls into the same catagory that blindness, insanity, hairy palms, weakness, anemia, and all the other masturbation blamed illnesses fall into: a large crock. I dunno, maybe if you get all sweaty doing it and refuse to wash your face...

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"I guess one person can make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

[Jophiel]

Oh, and Nanno, I don't see where Homer needs to get a life. Granted the title of the topic was a bit odd, but the question was legit. Masturbation is considered a sin by the Church, yet the Bible never mentions it by name and only once by description of the act. Asking how one led to the other is hardly grounds to "get a life".

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"I guess one person can make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

[Spoke]

Been a while since I darkened a church door, but didn't Onan get in trouble in the Old Testament for "spilling his seed on the ground"? And isn't masturbation therefore also known as "onanism"?

Or something like that.

[Spoke]

I should have read Anti Pro's post more carefully. The story of Onan is the one to which reference is made there, I believe.

[Sam Stone]

Where in the bible does it say that lusting is wrong? There is at least one Psalm that is pretty erotic.

I think the bible says lusting after someone other than your wife is wrong.

[BobT]

The Catholic Church's prohibition against masturbation stems mainly from its belief that sex is only supposed to be used for procreation.
Some statements by JPII even hinted at the belief that spouses should only have sex with each other in order to have children, but shouldn't just do it for "fun."

That view is not widely held.

A side effect of the Catholic Church's masturbation stand is its opposition to in vitro fertilization in part because masturbation is a necessary part of the process.

Positions like this on sexual relations, needless to say, have often made people look at the Catholic Church with the thought of "Yeah, right."

Homer, I didn't see anything in Cecil's columns specifically on whether masturbation will make you go blind, but here is an answer to the second part of your OP.
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_217.html

[ubermensch]

Originally posted by Anti Pro:
Many religious folk hone in on the verse in the Bible where the tradition in Jewish homes once was, if an older brother dies without an heir, the next oldest takes his place with the widow to sire a child for his dead brother . In this story none of the brothers would do so, and it came to the last brother who masturbated on the ground. He was killed NOT because of the masturbation, but because of the disobedience and defiance.

The story is a good one, it is in Genesis, chapter 38.


well, since i'm not a christian, i don't have my bible with me, but if i remember correctly, it was Onan, and he was having sex with his dead brother's wife, but at the last moment, he pulled out and spilled his seed upon the ground. but, you're right, it had nothing to do with masturbation.

[mangeorge]

BobT said;
"The Catholic Church's prohibition against masturbation stems mainly from its belief that sex is only supposed to be used for procreation."
-------------------------------------------
This can't be true, can it? The catholic church teaches the "rhythm method" as the only acceptable means of birth control.
Peace,
mangeorge

[Jophiel]

Where in the bible does it say that lusting is wrong? There is at least one Psalm that is pretty erotic.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity... - Galatians 5:19
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart - Matthew 5:28
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality,impurity, lust, evil desires and greed... - Colossians 3:5
...that you should avoid sexual immorality, that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen... - I Thessalonians 4:3b-5

There's others, but I think that's enough to prove my point. The way I was always taught (agree with me or not, it doesn't matter - this is what the Church was teaching and that's who we're talking about) is that when the Bible mentions immorality, it's talking about physical sexual encounters with someone; when it mentions impurity, it's refering to the state of mind (i.e. lust).

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"I guess one person can make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

[SingleDad]

Yet another reason to be an atheist! :D

[Nu Vo Da Da]

Ever read the Song of Solomon, Jophiel?

Now, the church can interprete those verses any way it pleases, but that doesn't mean that those verses are the reason that the church holds that doctrine. The whole "sex is nasty" thing originated relatively late in the christian church-priests were often married and had children.


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Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate mother-fucker.

[even sven]

Oh! And I thought this thread was going to be about the terrible terrible band Sexxxy Christ....

[handy]

Homer, why don't you call a church & ask?

Ah, skip that, way back then, there were very few people. They made rules so that they would create more people, thus propagate the humans. Masturbating wasted sperm so that means fewer people. People were supposd to get married to make more people too, see?

[RealityChuck]

Actually, the Medieval Catholic church had lots of rules about what wasn't allowed sexually -- sex was for procreation only, and could only be performed on certain days of the week (I seem to recall Tuesdayd and Thursdays were OK; the rest were a sin). And anything other than the missionary position was a shortcut to Hell.

Oddly enough, many churches had very explicit sculptures showing exactly what you shouldn't be doing.

Though they used the Bible to justify things, the specific sins were determined by the church before they went to look for a justification in the Bible. I suppose the kindest spin was that the church leaders honestly believed in the sinfulness of sexuality. A more cynical view would be that it was done as a way to assert the church's control.

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"What we have here is failure to communicate." -- Strother Martin, anticipating the Internet.

www.sff.net/people/rothman (http://www.sff.net/people/rothman)

[quadell]

The Bible often condemns adultry, in no uncertain terms, but it does so as a property crime. (See Exodus 20:17 from the Ten Commandments: "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." Adultry was property crime.)

When Jesus condemned "looking at a woman lustfully", he was expanding adultry to include thoughts of adultry. Adultry is still only applicable in terms of a married woman.

As for terms like "sexual immorality", I think you have to look at the culture of the day. Jesus was a Jew, raised by Jews, and it's pretty clear that in those days, Jews didn't condemn sex before marriage. It was considered immature and wasn't advised, but it certainly wasn't sin. "Sexual immorality" almost certainly refered to homosexual sex and beastiality, in first century Jewish thought.

Of course, you can interpret the Bible to mean whatever you want. Most people do.

Your Quadell

[Dragwyr]

Originally posted by mangeorge:
"The catholic church teaches the "rhythm method" as the only acceptable means of birth control."

Not true. The Catholic Church promotes "Natural Family Planning" as an acceptable means of birth control. This is much different than "Rhythm Method". Rhythm method examines the cycles of ovulation and looks for patterns. NFP is a way of looking for the signs of fertility: Increased basal temperature, increased production of cervical mucas, and position of cervix, to name a few. Most people mistake NFP for Rhythm.

Although it doesn't protect against STD's, it is as effective as other methods of birth control... AND it doesn't mess with the woman's body.


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-Dragwyr
"If God had meant for man to eat waffles,
he would have given him lips like snowshoes"
-Rev. Billy C. Wirtz

[manhattan]

::This is a test post. Please ignore it. If you see multiposts above, please ignore them, too. I’ll clean them up.::

[JoltSucker]

Back when I was regularly attending church, it struck me even then as odd, the way that people would get much more worked up about what they viewed as sexual sin, than they would about any other type of sin. Drug use - bad, but it happens. Violence - bad, but it happens. A little premarital sex - we're going to drum you out of the church. I can't help but think it's American hangups in conjuntion with Biblical injunctions that blows it way out of proportion.

When my wife and I went to "marriage counselling" (I use that term advisedly), the pastor put us through weeks of grueling cross-examination. Yet when we had passed his little gauntlet, and asked him for constructive advice on sex, he was at a loss, and basically said something to the effect of "I dunno, whenever someone wants sex, they should get it." Yeah, real helpful....

[Jophiel]

I think some of you are missing the point. I couldn't care less what your own interpretations are on the Bible, nor whether you find Song of Solomon erotic or whatever. The OP asked why the Christian church says masturbation is a sin. As was pointed out, many Christian faiths don't think it is, but the "Church"" (i.e. the Catholic church) does. The reason why the Catholic Church says it is is for the reasons mentioned above. Now, if you think that the technicalities of Onan, Jesus's teachings or Song of Solomon is reason enough why you can masturbate and be cool in the eyes of God, that's fine. I'm not saying myself that it is a sin, I'm saying why the Church says so, drawing from my years of Catholicism. If you have issues with it, you should probably take it up with them, as I'm not exactly a model Catholic and the Pope rarely returns my calls.

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"I guess one person can make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

[Anti Pro]

cmkeller,

My point was that many religious hone in on that as the reason against masturbating.

I'm a Southern Baptist, by denomination, certainly no scholar. But, the Bible says 'And Judah said to Onan,"Go in to your brother's wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother."
BUT Onan knew that the heir would not be his: and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother's wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother.
And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: therefore He killed him also.'

The Talmud can interpret it as talking about the seed on the ground but in other verses in the Bible, the Lord told the Israelites if they have an 'emission' they are unclean until evening, and merely to wash up and they are considered clean again', so it seems clear to me, at least, that it is the deception/disobedience/rebellion that is being punished.
---------
Judy

Jolt, men of God, are still just regular men, with hangups and embarrassments. Every time my sons would want to talk about sex, my husband would run the other way. The Bible certainly has a lot to say on the subject, including not depriving your partner, and that the marriage bed is considered 'holy and undefiled'. Men are even advised to stay home the first year and make their spouses happy, didja do that?? :D



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"Um, according to who? Nothing more than a high brow troll, though occasionally the bi polar personality swung in a constructive direction on innocuous topics." Omniscient

[Anti Pro]

Jophiel, since it was Homer who asked the general question of why Christian churches are against masturbation, how is something inanimate going to answer??

Anyone answering this, has to be of a personal interpretation then doesn't it, being that none of us is the church, or the Pope either.

[JoltSucker]

Anti Pro, just for the record, I've always believed in "ladies first" - that applies to orgasms as well as holding the door open. My wife tells me that she's never had to fake it with me, and if my motion is not doing it for her ocean, well that's why G-d gave us fingers and mouths. :D :D :D :D

Yeah, I guess I can understand our pastor being squeamish about talking about sex, but someone in his position should have been prepared to talk about it. He was so interested in tearing us down (to "divorce-proof" us), that he had nothing constructive to say. I got the feeling that we weren't spiritual enough for him, so he wasn't exactly rooting for us. Needless to say, as soon as he married us, we never darkened his door again.

He could have said lots of practical advice, without getting too graphic. Like don't expect miracles on your wedding night, take your time (months) to really get to know your spouse sexually before expecting the sex to be great (we did not have premarital sex, so that was pertinent information). We figured that one out on our own, but no thanks to him.

And also for the record, by eldest child (a pre-teen) already knows what sex is, without any embellishment or titillation.

I used to be wracked with guilt about my masturbation habit, so I did a scripture study on it. There's a tenuous argument at best against it, implied by the passage about Onan and Jesus' teaching about lust. I suppose you could give yourself a prostate massage while thinking about wallpaper, but thinking about those luscious babes in church worked so much better for me ;). I decided that I tormenting myself unnecessarily over a non-existent prohibition. So 5-finger Mary and I have a regular date, and I don't sweat the moral implications any more.

[Jophiel]

Jophiel, since it was Homer who asked the general question of why Christian churches are against masturbation, how is something inanimate going to answer??

Anyone answering this, has to be of a personal interpretation then doesn't it, being that none of us is the church, or the Pope either.
Huh?
Homer wasn't asking the Church why it was so, he was asking us why it was so. I told him why the Church, as an organization, believes that masturbation is a sin. You don't have to believe what the Church says (I often don't), but that has nothing to do with whether or not the Church says it. You don't have to be Darwin to recite his theory of evolution, you don't have to be Halley to predict when the comet will swing around again, and you don't have to be the Pope to state the Church's already taught doctrine about why masturbation is a sin - your interpretations aside.

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"I guess one person can make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

[Homer]

Well then. Very interesting. Thanks, all. I already knew the story about Onan, and I had always felt it's message was more about disobediance than masturbation, also. I just wondered if perhaps the Bible made a stronger case against it, or any case at all. Thanks!

--Tim

Call me a social worker. I shake hands with the unemployed all the time! :)

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You can't accidently create a handicapped baby whilst smoking pot. - Coldfire

[cmkeller]

AntiPro:

In this story none of the brothers would do so, and it came to the last brother who masturbated on the ground. He was killed NOT because of the masturbation, but because of the disobedience and defiance.

A few slight inaccuracies regarding the story of Onan, and one comment re: Talmudic interpretation.

The inaccuracy: there were only two surviving brothers. The one who spilled his seed on the ground was the first one asked (Onan, as others have identified). The other (and last) brother (Shelah) was held back by his father (Judah) from marrying the widow (Tamar), because Judah (incorrectly) assumed that if her two husbands had been killed, it was due to a transgression of hers (the one thing the two dead brothers had in common), not due to seperate transgressions on the parts of the brothers (which in fact was the case).

The interpretation: It is true that the story can be interpreted as that Onan was punished for his disobedience. However, the Talmud sees the masturbation as the problem because the verse (in the original Hebrew) specifically mentions that he had "destroyed the seed," a fact that would have been extraneous if it were merely a problem with disobedience. Talmdic Rabbis (and those hwo follow their teachings) believe that no detail mentioned in the Torah is unnecessary, and often derive laws from apparently extra words.

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Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@kozmo.com

"Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks."
-- Douglas Adams's Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

[earendel1]

Originally posted by Homer:
Well then. Very interesting. Thanks, all. I already knew the story about Onan, and I had always felt it's message was more about disobediance than masturbation, also. I just wondered if perhaps the Bible made a stronger case against it, or any case at all. Thanks!


One last comment on the story of Omer. The "sin of Omer" was not masturbation. When he "spilled his seed" he was withdrawing before ejaculating -- something akin to coitus interruptus. And it was that -- his refusal to impregnate his brother's wife -- that got him in trouble with God.

Mangeorge wants to know about the rhythm method. Here is what we learned about the rhythm method in Sex Education in high school:

"What do they call people who rely on the rhythm method for birth control?"

"Parents."

:)

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"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!" - the White Queen

[cmkeller]

Anti Pro:

I see your point. However, in the original Hebrew, the differences are significant.

For example, in your quote of the Onan story, you have that he "emitted" on the ground. As I said, the Hebrew word used in the verse means "destroyed"...not quite so innocuous sounding.

In addition, you are correct about impurity until immersion being the consequence of seminal emission...but when the Torah discusses these laws, the Hebrew term used is the passive tense..."if semen should come out of him." The Hebrew word for this jind of impurity is Keri, which means "happenstance"...implying an accident, not that it's fine to do it intentionally.

In this day and age, it's easy to make light of the value placed on sperm by Western religion, such as in the Monty Python song quoted by mattk at the beginning of this thread. But it's hardly a joke. Since religion considers human life to be a sacred thing, and since sperm is the stuff of which human life can form, it's not (from the religious perspective) to be treated so cavalierly (sp?).

Chaim Mattis Keller

[VileOrb]

I'm with Yupyup. Following the catholic logic I conclude that women must attempt pregnancy everytime they ovulate to prevent waste of an ovum. Ovum seem much more valuable than sperm to me (limited supply etc.). This just goes to show you can't apply logic to this. This is religion, not science. In my opinion, logic is the greatest selling point of atheism.

I call myself a frisbyterian. I believe that when I die my soul goes on the roof and no one can get it down. Masturbation is permitted in frisbyterianism, just wash your hands before going outside to play.

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If men had wings,
and bore black feathers,
few of them would be clever enough to be crows.

- Rev. Henry Ward Beecher

[JoltSucker]

Especially when you consider that all those millions of sperm are going to die anyway, so you might as well put them to good use. If you don't masturbate, they will die anyway. The only way for ONE of them to NOT die is for you to father a child. If you're monogamous, the most often you can do that is 9 months plus the time she still doesn't feel like sex. I'm not sure how long sperm lives in your testicles before they're killed off, but I bet it's days at best. "Waste not, want not" takes on a new meaning... ;)

Likewise, if a woman has sex when she can't get pregnant, the only things she's guilty of is showing some poor sperm (that would die anyhow) a good time. What a kind-hearted, generous thing to do... ;)

[cmkeller]

Yupyup:

with all this talk about seed and sperm and the like, i'm starting to wonder, what happens if you're a woman?

Well, obviously women can't intentionally cause an egg to be destroyed (the best they can do is by omission) the way men can sperm by masturbating. But like men who experienced a seminal emission, the Torah says that a menstruating woman is unclean and must immerse in water before being considered clean again. (Of course, this is the Jewish view, and I have no idea what the Catholic church's take on it is.)

Chaim Mattis Keller

[Yupyup]

with all this talk about seed and sperm and the like, i'm starting to wonder, what happens if you're a woman?

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"Some people would rather die than think. In fact,they do so." Bertrand Russel

[Nicklz]

Alright, masterbation is considered wrong by the church (so is everything else thats fun) I'm a preachers son this doesn't mean that I'm very holy, every heard the saying "preachers kids are the worst?"
Well anyway back to the subject. I can't give you the chapter and verse, but I remember asking my dad questions like this one just to see if he had an answer and for this subject he did. Somewhere in that big black book they call a bible it says something to the effects about how some dude went up on a hill and "spilled his seeds" and all this other stuff about how that was only supposed to happen with your wife.
Secondly, I get my fair share of women, plus I masterbate my river never runs dry, so to say. Anyhow I have very clear skin. The pimple question raises a question of my own. Have you ever know that the people with really nasty skin problems are usually dirty and proably never seen a peice of soap in there entire life. I think everyone should donate a ar of soap to goodwill or some other organizatiosn like it, in fact I think it should be mandatory...oh you should also make it some of that good smelly soap. Dirt balls need to smell good too. I mean do you want to smell their nasty sweaty body odor? well I kinda got carried away with that. Bottom line is YES masterbation is considered wrong but it sure is fun. Secondly wash your damn face and maybe it won't breakout.


p.s. oh yeah buy so soap and give it to someone thats a dirt ball

Originally posted by Yupyup:
with all this talk about seed and sperm and the like, i'm starting to wonder, what happens if you're a woman?


At the time during the Victorian era when our Western European/British/American culture was deciding that masturbation was bad and would make you burn in Hell forever, or make you go blind, or at the very least make hair grow on your palms, women were not considered to even HAVE sexual desires, let alone need to have the white male establishment decide what should be done about them. Nobody ever saw a woman have an experience during which magic "jism" appeared, so it was considered, logically enough, I suppose, that women didn't experience orgasm.

So this discussion, apparently, Yupyup, deals exclusively with "guy stuff". Been a long time, in this increasingly PC-era, since it was possible to even HAVE a discussion about "guy stuff", huh? :)

BTW: there is absolutely nothing in the Bible concerning masturbation. There is a general rule, yes, that says, "Whoever lusts after a woman in his heart is doing the same thing as having actual sex with her," but I always assumed that fantasy women didn't count. It's OK to lust after the character that Raquel Welch plays in 1,000,000 B.C., as long as your fantasy doesn't extend (!) to including Ms. Welch herself (going to her trailer on the set, taking her to the Academy Awards, etc.) I don't see how having mind-sex with an imaginary someone named Oog from the year 1,000,000 B.C. is a sin.


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"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!" - the White Queen

[Irishman]

Time to fight some ignorance.

Originally posted by Nicklz:
Have you ever know that the people with really nasty skin problems are usually dirty and proably never seen a peice of soap in there entire life.

This is not true. While some people with bad acne are unclean, and washing removes oil and dirt that clogs pores which causes acne, some people get worse acne than other people even though they do wash. Everyone is different, some people have it worse than others.

Broad generalizations like the above are unbased and rude. Think of the kids in high school who naturally have bad acne and cannot help it.

Don't stereotype.

[JoltSucker]

cmkeller, when you say:

In addition, you are correct about impurity until immersion being the consequence of seminal emission...but when the Torah discusses these laws, the Hebrew term used is the passive tense..."if semen should come out of him." The Hebrew word for this jind of impurity is Keri, which means "happenstance"...implying an accident, not that it's fine to do it intentionally.

I still think the case against masturbation is weak, but it is implied. There's nothing that says it's worse to do it intentionally than it is by happenstance. I sense I get of the Torah's stance on either type of emission is a big shrug with a "stuff happens, go wash your hands" attitude.

[JoltSucker]

cmkeller, when you say:

In addition, you are correct about impurity until immersion being the consequence of seminal emission...but when the Torah discusses these laws, the Hebrew term used is the passive tense..."if semen should come out of him." The Hebrew word for this jind of impurity is Keri, which means "happenstance"...implying an accident, not that it's fine to do it intentionally.

I still think the case against masturbation is weak, because it's built only on implied offenses. There's nothing that says it's worse to do it intentionally than it is by happenstance. The sense I get of the Torah's stance on either type of emission is a big shrug with a "stuff happens, go wash your hands" attitude.

[Green Bean]

Originally posted by Notthemama:
"What do they call people who rely on the rhythm method for birth control?"
"Parents."


Ha ha funny, that this came from someone called "Notthemama!"

But this all brings up an interesting point--and let's assume we are talking about guys only, here--according to the Christian church, is it okay to masturbate if you don't , er, bring it to completion?

[matt_mcl]

The Hebrew word for this kind of impurity is Keri

So what the hell is Keri brand shampoo made from??? Shades of Something About Mary...

Originally posted by Green Bean:
But this all brings up an interesting point--and let's assume we are talking about guys only, here--according to the Christian church, is it okay to masturbate if you don't , er, bring it to completion?

Um, Bean? :D I personally don't really see the point of masturbating if you're not gonna--ahem--ejaculate, but hey, different strokes, ya know? :D

Whatever turns you on... :cool:



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"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!" - the White Queen

[Myron Van Horowitzski]

I still think the case against masturbation is weak, but it is implied

It is, but not by the Bible. Christian leaders, Catholic in particular, want us to believe that Onan's fate was for the sin of wanking, even though it clearly wasn't.

It's the same way they never correct the common (erroneous) assumption about the Immaculate Conception, that Jesus was born to a woman without her having had sex at all, i.e. sex=dirty, virgin=immaculate.

I seem to recall (don't have the cites but I'll look into it) that the early Christian church didn't have the sex=dirty policy until several hundred years after the birth of Christ.

The theory was that in early Christianity, worship did not make use of temples and took place in intimate, family/friend household settings. In those days the household was the woman's domain; and indeed early Christianity may have been women in majority.

Later, when the "cult" turned into a major religion and bucks 'n' power started rolling in, men wrested control. One of the ways they did so is by starting the "women as temptresses" routine. What's so tempting about women? You take it from there.

Thus (several hundred years down a slippery slope), according to strict (Catholic anyway) policy, ANY sex is sinful, unless done by a couple in the sanctity of holy matrimony, with the express intent to conceive a child.

<shudder> Maybe they need to go back to the policy they used to have where only priests are allowed to read the Bible.

Your brain-in-a-jar,
Myron

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Sex is dirty--if it's done right!

[Green Bean]

Originally posted by Notthemama:
Um, Bean? :D I personally don't really see the point of masturbating if you're not gonna--ahem--ejaculate, but hey, different strokes, ya know? :D

Whatever turns you on... :cool:



Ah... But you didn't address the question. Since a common explanation for the injunction about masturbation is the story of Onan spilling his seed, is masturbation okay if the seed is not spilled?

I am not sure if the "whatever turns you on" comment was pointed at me directly or not, but in case it was, let me say that I never masturbate to the point of ejaculation.

--Bean

[quadell]

Green Bean: :D

Your Quadell

[Dragwyr]

Originally posted by Green Bean:
I am not sure if the "whatever turns you on" comment was pointed at me directly or not, but in case it was, let me say that I never masturbate to the point of ejaculation.


Interesting you say that, Green Bean. I seem to recall looking over a recent copy of Catholic Cannon Law and finding that the Catholic Church DOES allow masturbation, oral sex, and so on... AS LONG AS it is part of foreplay leading up to heterosexual love making.

The idea, again as stated in previous posts, is that it will promote sex for procreation.

------------------
-Dragwyr
"If God had meant for man to eat waffles,
he would have given him lips like snowshoes"
-Rev. Billy C. Wirtz

Originally posted by Green Bean:
Ah... But you didn't address the question. Since a common explanation for the injunction about masturbation is the story of Onan spilling his seed, is masturbation okay if the seed is not spilled?

I am not sure if the "whatever turns you on" comment was pointed at me directly or not, but in case it was, let me say that I never masturbate to the point of ejaculation.

--Bean


I am a Christian, and I attend a conservative Protestant church regularly, but I do not happen to believe that masturbation is a sin, whether you ejaculate or not, and as far as I know the church I attend doesn't teach anything in particular against masturbation. Perhaps it does and I just never noticed--to me the whole subject of masturbation is one that was long ago resolved in my own mind, leaving me free to move on to other things.

I see a lot of people in this thread generalizing about "the Church teaches...", or "why does the Church teach?..." I think it's important to point out that not all Christian denominations take the same stand on masturbation, that not all Christian authorities agree that masturbation is a sin (Onan's case aside, because I think it's clear that what we're talking about in this thread is whether it's a sin to "beat off", if I may use the vernacular without getting sent to the Pit, :) and I think it's been pretty well established that Onan's sin was not in "beating off" but in refusing to give his brother's widow a child.)

Just to shed a little light:
From the 1913 edition of Webster's Unabridged:Mas`tur*ba"tion (?), n. [L. masturbatus, p. p. of masturbari to practice onanism: cf. F. masturbation.] Onanism; self-pollution.
Notice the negative connotation of the phrase "self-pollution".

From the (modern) Merriam-Webster:Main Entry: mas·tur·ba·tion
Function: noun
Date: 1766
: erotic stimulation especially of one's own genital organs commonly resulting in orgasm and achieved by manual or other bodily contact exclusive of sexual intercourse, by instrumental manipulation, occasionally by sexual fantasies, or by various combinations of these agencies

So we can see that the concept of masturbation as something negative is a relatively recent development in human history. The "M" word itself wasn't coined until 1766. I believe the word was coined during the 18th century Enlightenment because during that era, people in the scientific and medical establishment had a passion for putting names to things, to categorize things. It went along with all the scientific categorization, Linnaeus giving Latin names to all the plants, etc. "What should we call it when you do THIS?"

It was the Victorians in the 19th century who, for various deeply-ingrained psychological reasons, decided that masturbation was a dreadful sin, and began to try to suppress it. Our modern-day American culture is still carrying around an awful lot of the Victorian era's emotional baggage.

Green Bean, I was not aware that it was physically possible for some people to stop halfway through masturbation. I have learned something today. :) Also, may I say, you must have phenomenal self-control. :D



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"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!" - the White Queen

[Green Bean]

Notthemama:

I just wanted to let you know that I never masturbate to the point of ejaculation because I am female.

Gotcha! :D

--Bean