Moron state congressman from Colorado

The whole gun control thing really brings out a lot of emotion in folks, doesn't it?

But, in fact, if a teacher or administrator at the school in Colorado had a concealed weapon and was well-trained in its use (like police or military training) he/she WOULD have a very good chance against irrational, untrained teens, even though they had superior firepower. An untrained person, as most would be, would need a lot of luck.

Personally, I'm in favor of allowing concealed weapons, BUT with this caveat-- that the carrying person receive rigorous training and a thorough background check. But what are the chances of that being implemented properly?


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-Rich

Did anyone catch the idiot statement from the State Congressman from Colorado Springs (Doug Dean-R) about the impending concealed weapons permit vote and the events that happened at the shot up high school? He said that if one of the teachers or administrators had a concealed weapon that he (or she) could have shot the gunmen and ended the incident.

What a asinine thing to say. Hello Congressman Dean, those kids had assault rifles, automatic handguns, hand grenades,...etc. How realistic is it to say that a High School Vice-Principal is going to pick off two kids with
AK-47s, and hand grenades with his/her handgun? I’ve got an idea Congressman Dean, why don’t we just give every high school kid a Beretta with their student handbooks so if this happens again our sons and daughters can just whack the gun-toting whackos and then go back to study hall? Or how about this, instead of student hall monitors, we can have student high school "prison-type guards" that can walk around with shotguns and shoot anybody who looks suspicious or sit up in towers and sniper off anybody that is wearing a trenchcoat.

Congressman Dean, you are an asshole. Your comments could only come from an asshole and any moron who thinks that arming citizens with guns is going to stop horrible, horrible events like this is a misguided asshole.

I’m not about to go into the whole NRA thing, but think about this, I don’t expect gun laws to fix the problem overnight, but you have to start somewhere. The sooner you make them illegal, the sooner law enforcement can start destroying guns. Sure it will take decades to eradicate all the guns in America, but until you start somewhere, it will never happen.

But, in fact, if a teacher or administrator at the school in Colorado had a concealed weapon and was well-trained in its use (like police or military training) he/she WOULD have a very good chance against irrational, untrained teens, even though they had superior firepower. An untrained person, as most would be, would need a lot of luck. - Rich

. . .and when said administrator shoots and kills a kid?

I am disgusted by the NRA's reaction to the tragedy in Colorado! They think that cutting their meeting back from three to one days is a way of showing "profound sympathy" for the victims and their families. Hey Chuck! Here's an idea...why don't you quit supporting laws that guarantee that these weapons will get into the hands of children!!! I am sickened by the idea that the NRA and others point to the Constitution to justify their actions. The 2nd amendment says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Anyone with a 9th grade education can tell the real meaning of this statement. I don't want to get in a long discussion about the NRA, constitution, etc. Let me put this as briefly as possible. All weapons that have no other purpose than to kill people should be outlawed. Period. Arming everyone would only lead to MORE tragedies. Only the U.S. has this problem because we are the only country with our gun laws. Are we so ethnocentric to believe that we are somehow special or different? 'Nuff said for now...

There WAS an armed guard at the school! He tried to shoot the gunboys, but missed. And then they went to the library and massacred some more students. So having someone with a gun there did not help at all. And this was someone who WAS well trained to use a gun.

Responding to Diane:

If a teacher or administrator had shot and killed those two teens who went on the killing spree, there would be a lot less dead people in Littleton. It would still be a tragedy, but less of one.

Responding to Gurduloo:

The fact that one lone guard, whose level of skill and training we know nothing about, failed to stop the kids doesn't mean that trained, responsible adults with guns would necessarily be ineffective against them. And even if the guard was highly skilled, chance is aways a factor. What if there had been two guards, or three? This tragedy would have been cut short.

Responding to Jahender:

I completely agree with you that our culture of violence is a horrible thing. I abhor the fact that guns get into the wrong hands, and for the wrong reasons. But attempting to do away with all guns by passing laws against them just, in my opinion, won't work. Although it's become a slogan, I think it's still true that the only people whose gun use would be prevented by laws, are the people who care about obeying laws.

Honest armed people are a deterrent to crime. Why else would banks have armed guards? Why else do we allow the police to carry arms? Unlike some in the gun lobby, I am not for doing away with all government control of gun ownership. But since the police cannot be everywhere and cannot be counted on to prevent violent crime from occuring, I would like the right to have the tools to protect myself and my loved-ones from criminals who have no regard for life, law and decency.

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-Rich

RANash,

You are using the same dumbass argument that Chucky Heston tried yesterday and it didn't float then and it won't float today. As Gurduloo has so accurately pointed out, there was an armed security guard (armed with a 12-shot Baretta) that squeezed off two shots, but then he got hammered with some TEC-9 rounds.

So what's your answer to that? More guns? Body armor? What other product or argument can you make that makes the gun companies more money and avoids the obvious solution that most guns need to be destroyed?

The TEC-9 is an perfect example. That gun was made for killing people. It is not very accurate (hence bad for hunting/sport shooting), you can shoot off ten rounds in a matter of seconds, it was promoted to the 'gun toting, criminal element' as almost resistant to fingerprints, and it sold for around $400 (quite cheap for drug dealers who clear thousands a night). How many of those were sold before legislation took it of the shelf, Chuck?

My question to these NRA folks is: When you look in the mirror, do you see the karma getting ready to bite you in the ass or do you just know it’s coming and can’t do anything about it?


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'Shut your pie hole'-Jbird

How many guns would solve the problem? The asinine view that the problem is not enough guns scares the living shit out of me. Of course, these are the same people that think we should ban violent films, violent games, and violent music! Guns don't kill people, people kill people; of course, guns sure make it a HELL of a lot easier. For you half-wits that scream about your gun "rights", try reading the first half of the amendment!

[[The fact that one lone guard, whose level of skill and training we know nothing about, failed to stop the kids doesn't mean that trained, responsible adults with guns would necessarily be ineffective against them. ]]RANash


He was a professional police officer -- sorry.

[[ And even if the guard was highly skilled, chance is aways a factor. What if there had been two guards, or three? This tragedy would have been cut short.]]


How about 50 at every school?

[[But attempting to do away with all guns by passing laws against them just, in my opinion, won't work. Although it's become a slogan, I think it's still true that the only people whose gun use would be prevented by laws, are the people who care about obeying laws.]]


The slogan misrepresents the theory of gun control, to a large extent -- the idea is to use law abiding dealers (hey, no jokes!) in concert with the raw effect of having fewer guns overall available for criminal use.


[[Honest armed people are a deterrent to crime.]]


Unfortunately, it's not always easy to tell beforehand who's honest and/or responsible. Heretofore honest people with guns kill and maim a lot of people.

So a gun is a "tool" for "protection"? I can't seem to find the button on a .45 that puts up that magic shield of "protection". On the other hand, if you feel that shooting at that shadowy figure crawling through the bedroom window will make you feel safer, go right ahead. Let me know, so I could send flowers to your child's funeral. Funny how a kid will come home late sometimes, isn't it?
Most law-abiding citizens are killed by OTHER law-abiding citizens. It's also helpful to thieves to know that there's a good chance that the empty house they are entering has a gun to rip off. Tell me something; what part of your brain do you hand over with your cash to get that gun?

The fact that one lone guard, whose level of skill and training we know nothing about, failed to stop the kids doesn't mean that trained, responsible adults with guns would necessarily be ineffective against them.

Ah yes, it would be much more likely that some stray teacher would be better trained and more skilled, and be carrying a concealed weapon.

And even if the guard was highly skilled, chance is aways a factor. What if there had been two guards, or three? This tragedy would have been cut short.

Ah, so we should be posting gunmen at every hall intersection in every school now? "Get more guns in here! It'll be safer!"

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>^,,^<
"Cluemobile? You've got a pickup..."
The Teeming Millions Homepage: fathom.org/teemingmillions (http://fathom.org/teemingmillions)

[[The fact that one lone guard, whose level of skill and training we know nothing about, failed to stop the kids doesn't mean that trained, responsible adults with guns would necessarily be ineffective against them. And even if the guard was highly skilled, chance is aways a factor. What if there had been two guards, or three? This tragedy would have been cut short.]]

Yes! More armed guards! Fire 20 teachers at every school and replace them with rent-a-cops! Then the Littleton kids would have never even brought those guns on campus, and the propane bomb wouldn't have been found until after it went off, killing hundreds! What a perfect freaking plan!

I know this is rather pointless, but if you check the stats on gun ownership and violent deaths caused by gunshots per capita, in US, Canada and UK....nuff said.

I just don't understand why the hell would anyone need an assault rifle for hunting? Shees....it is most useless thing for that purpose, just look what sniper's use. These weapons, such as AK-47, MP-5's M-16, Steyrs and the like only have ONE purpose... to kill maximum amount of enemy personel in minimum time. There is no earthy reason why anyone should have one of these nasty things.

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Cogito Ergo Vroom
I think therefore I ride fast...

Come on, gun enthuiasts, speak up! Can't take a little logic and common sense? It's so damn easy to follow HALF an amendment and use bumper sticker mentality.."I'll give up my gun when they pry it..." and "Guns don't kill people...". It's not so easy when you aren't speaking to the converted, is it? Any gun nuts with guts enough to answer what has been brought up in this forum?

First... no, concealed weapons permits would not have prevented Littleton - but only for a reason I'll get into after my -defense- of concealed weapons permits.

In the states where concealed carry laws have been enacted, the incidence of pointless gunplay has decreased. There's a very logical reason for this; most people who engage in this sort of behavior do so with an expectation that either (a) they'll have immediate power over those they're terrorizing or (b) they'll last long enough until the cops show to get their names on the news before they're dead.

Ever since the time a guy tried to terrorize a cafeteria in Florida only to get capped within a couple of minutes by a customer with a concealed carry permit, the incidents have decreased.

The flip side of this is that if the perps are truly suicidal, they won't care. That's why I'm not entirely sure a concealed carry law in Colorado would have made a lick of difference, and may have done more harm in this -particular- situation. On the other hand, ALL laws geared toward public safety can have a dark side; if I'm caught in a burning vehicle about to explode, I'll certainly spend my last few moments cursing my seat belt.

I'm perfectly in favor of SENSIBLE concealed carry laws. By sensible, I mean laws which require training and knowledge. While "an armed society is a polite society" is a naive (if romantic) concept, there IS a grain of truth. A WELL-armed and TRAINED society is safer than one where ONLY the criminals have guns.

Sure, it'd be great to do away with them altogether. However, that's a hopelessly optimistic goal, unless we want to trample on everyone's privacy to the point where it is no longer meaningless. There are simply too many guns out there for us to wish them away, and until a sensible method for getting RID of them, entirely, comes along, all you accomplish by telling good citizens they can't own them and use them to protect themselves and others is to empower the lice.

And before anyone throws out the challenges, yes, I'm perfectly aware that arming everyone isn't the answer either; some people simply aren't capable of acting decisively in such circumstances. Even those who think they are might hesitate. That IS part of a valid argument against such laws, but it is only a part, and must be weighed against the opposite benefits. I'm also aware that people snap; if someone can prove that people snap more often than people get the opportunity to defend innocent life, there's a decent opposition. Lastly, I'm aware that kids get into accidents with dad's gun; kids also get into accidents with the kitchen cutlery, and teenagers get into accidents with body parts rubbing together. Education would be the answer here, now wouldn't it?


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~jon

Yeah. What he said.

I'm a bit of a gun enthusiast, mainly because it runs in the family. I've shot target rifle ever since I was 13 years old, and my stepfather owned several guns and kept them in my house for as long as I can remember. And believe me, I NEVER would have gotten into them, because I was raised from a very early age to respect the power of a gun and to realize that they aren't toys. I only wish that the parents of the Littleton murderers had cared to teach their children about how dangerous guns are. This obviously isn't a cure-all, but it certainly would have helped.

Jon,
This isn't Adam-12, Hawaii 5-0, or Cops.
"perps", "capped" and the like are used to depersonalize situations and I, for one, hate their use.
Did you deliberately misunderstand my scenario? I was refering to all the accidental shootings done by well-educated adults, not children. These can be and are documented, unlike all the "I scared a burglar off with my trusty .357" stories the N.R.A. likes to trot out. Yes, studies show that accidental shootings are an epidemic in this country.
As regards your imaginary country where only criminals have guns, where the HELL do you think those criminals are getting the guns.
The are stolen from houses of law-abiding citizens. The are sold by "gun collectors" at swap meets and through the want ads. These are big holes we "anti-gun fanatics" could have plugged years ago if it weren't for the lobby efforts of the N.R.A.
The supposed right to own a gun VS. The right to life. Why the hell is there even a debate?

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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter Thompson

Responding to Big Iron:

Since 50 armed guards aren't reasonable, how about 1 guard and several well trained, screened, arms-carrying adults? I still think one would have gotten one of the shooters had they had the opportunity because they had the tool.

I completely agree with you about the need for law-abiding dealers.

And, you're right that we can't always tell beforehand who's honest and responsible. But we can get close with diligent background checks. And although "heretofore honest people with guns kill and maim a lot of people.", it's a lot less than are killed and maimed by criminals. And I for one want the means to stop the criminals in their intent to kill and/or maim me.

Responding to Slythe:

"Most law-abiding citizens are killed by OTHER law-abiding citizens." I disagree. With the exception of spouse abuse and child abuse, most law-abiding citizens killed in this country are killed by criminals. And, most of the time, the law-abiding citizen was unarmed and the criminal knew it. The background checks I referred to earlier should take spousal and child abuse into consideration.

Jon Morse said it well:

"In the states where concealed carry laws have been enacted, the incidence of pointless gunplay has decreased. There's a very logical reason for this; most people who engage in this sort of behavior do so with an expectation that either (a) they'll have immediate power over those they're terrorizing or (b) they'll last long enough until the cops show to get their names on the news before they're dead.

Ever since the time a guy tried to terrorize a cafeteria in Florida only to get capped within a couple of minutes by a customer with a concealed carry permit, the incidents have decreased."

As I did, he advocates not an irresponsible free-for-all regarding gun ownership, but thorough background checks and rigorous training.

[[In the states where concealed carry laws have been enacted, the incidence of pointless gunplay has decreased. There's a very logical reason for this; most people who engage in this sort of behavior do so with an expectation that either (a) they'll have immediate power over those they're terrorizing or (b) they'll last long enough until the cops show to get their names on the news before they're dead.]] Jon


Do you really think we have a statistically significant sample on this yet? I find it a little tough to believe that many potential gun misusers much factor in the notion of a concealed weapons law.

[[Since 50 armed guards aren't reasonable, how about 1 guard and several well trained, screened, arms-carrying adults? I still think one would have gotten one of the shooters had they had the opportunity because they had the tool.]]


I think that is a pretty irresponsible suggestion, given that there was an armed guard on site, and that these kids were very formidably armed.


[[I completely agree with you about the need for law-abiding dealers.]]


That implies laws, of course.

[[And although "heretofore honest people with guns kill and maim a lot of people.", it's a lot less than are killed and maimed by criminals]]


Any basis for that suggestion? Obviously, we are talking about people who weren't violent criminals before shooting someone dead.

RANash wrote:Since 50 armed guards aren't reasonable, how about 1 guard and several well trained, screened, arms-carrying adults? I still think one would have gotten one of the shooters had they had the opportunity because they had the tool.

You know... I think I would prefer the adults trying to help get my kids in a safe location, and away from the gunmen..... rather then look for a way to get in a headshot, and probably attracting their attention to that area.

One of the heros, in my book, was the custodian that went to the auditorium, and told the people holed up there the best route to get out safely. That, to me, is bravery. Could have just got out, told the police where the students and teachers were, and that would have been decent-- but he took a chance, and could have well risked his own life for others.

Melis

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Wench #407, IWG
Wenchmommy extraordinaire
Goddess of Typos, Dark Chocolate and Fyne Ale
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.

Um, if you read the Chicago Sun-Times, the place most criminals get their weapons is... people with clean backgrounds who buy them in bulk then sell them for a tidy profit without reporting they've been sold. They then report the guns as 'stolen' and viola, they're off the hook if said 'perp' gets caught using the gun they sold him. All the laws in the world aren't going to get around good, old-fashioned greed. Ask the IRS.

A question for all of you.
What are your children watching on television?

Todays children have grown up in a society that is much different today than in the past. They are constantly bombarded by our "entertainment" industry with such vile crap that it's no wonder that some kids can do such a thing. How can we tell our kids that violence is not the answer when television shows them otherwise. It's like sex folks, either you teach you kids about it or someone else will. Personally, my kid will learn about firearms from me and not Sly Stallone, Bruce Willis, or Arnold.

When I first heard of the Colorado incident I was in a hotel room far from home traveling on business. Unable to run to my children and hold them and tell them how much daddy loved them I could only weep. It was one of the loneliest moments of my life. My heart aches for the families of those lost and yes, even to the youths who commited this horrible act. Imagine what thier short lives must have been like for them to come to the end that they did...

I hope and pray that all of us, no matter what side of this debate we are on, can agree on one thing. We need to LOVE more. We need to love our children enough to be INVOLVED in thier lives. No parent that is TRULY a part in the life of thier child could miss the signs that those young boys were giving off.

I suppose it is natural for one who either is, or feels helpless, to want the government to stop this from happening again. I for one am not helpless. I don't trust the government enough to give up even one of my tools of self defense in hope that they would be there to protect me. Do you? I agree that there are many weapons out there that seem unreasonable to me. But I don't have the right to impose rules on how someone can protect themselves.

I know it would be foolish to think I could enter into a logical debate with all of you folks that have no control of your emotions. But just to fan the flames a little, how about a discussion on what part Hollywood plays in the impressionable minds of our youth.


Oh, by the way, for those of you with the courage: http://ddb.com/RKBA/



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For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18

But just to fan the flames a little, how about a discussion on what part Hollywood plays in the impressionable minds of our youth.

If you think that somehow you've been so deficient in raising your children that watching an R-rated movie will send them off of the proverbial deep end, then I suggest you get off of your hiney and a) get your kids some therapy, and b) turn off the damned TV and exercise some control over what your kids are watching. They're not going to see it if you don't let them, although I know I watched plenty of scary movies as a kid and have turned out just fine. Hence the "therapy" comment, because the kids that let stuff like that affect them probably had something wrong from the get-go.

Mind you, this is all at a certain age and maturity limit. You're obviously not going to want to let your 6-year-old watch the Evil Dead series. But once your kids get to be in their teens and are mature enough to understand the implications, I think letting them watch R-rated movies is fine. Absentee parenting causes much more "moral decay" than any movie ever did. Parents who are consistently "too busy" for their kids end up with kids who need years of therapy to figure out why their parents never loved them. Be there for your kids, and stop blaming Hollywood when they turned out screwed up.

John 3:16,
It doesn't take courage for someone to go to that website; it takes someone who doesn't mind answering loaded questions in a fake survey. "Do you think a police officer should shoot a criminal who is attacking a frail old lady?" indeed!! The trouble is, you will find in the bible just what you want to believe, as do all other religionists. Thou shalt not kill, An eye for an eye, Turn the other cheek, Smite thine enemies; just spin the wheel and take your pick.
I am an atheist with ethics. I believe that life has a finality that should be avoided at all costs. You are a religionist. Over history, we've seen what your kind can do, and it isn't pretty.

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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter Thompson

In response to slythe...

Your quote:
"The trouble is, you will find in the bible just what you want to believe".

I'm sorry, did I say anything about the bible here? Why do you bring it up?

Another one of your quotes:
"You are a religionist. Over history, we've seen what your kind can do, and it isn't pretty."

What makes you think I'm a religionist? Excactly what is a religionist anyway?
Certainly I know what religion is but where are you coming from anyway. Why are you spouting such hatred toward me personaly?
Since you seem to know all about "My Kind"
why don't you enlighten all of us as to why you think my initial statement was worth your diatribe.

In fact why don't all of you stop attacking individuals and start atacking ideas. Or are we all not adults here?

In respect of your Feelings slythe I will omit my profile signature from this post.
There now doesn't that feel better?

This isn't Adam-12, Hawaii 5-0, or Cops. - slythe

No, this is reality, where knee-jerk, all-or-nothing solutions don't work, yet people who wish us to think they are intelligent lifeforms continue to attempt to foist on the public.

"perps", "capped" and the like are used to depersonalize situations and I, for one, hate their use.

I'm truly sorry you object to the abbreviated form of the word "perpetrator," referring to "one who perpetrates [a crime]," but I refuse to abstain from the use of the term in lieu of something less descriptive. What would you prefer I use, "alleged felon," or "Uzi-toting lunatic," perhaps?

Did you deliberately misunderstand my scenario? I was refering to all the accidental shootings done by well-educated
adults, not children. These can be and are documented, unlike all the "I scared a burglar off with my trusty .357"
stories the N.R.A. likes to trot out. Yes, studies show that accidental shootings are an epidemic in this country.

Again, my sincerest apologies; I wasn't aware that the age of the person who accidentally shoots someone was particularly relevant. Be that as it may, children involved in accidental shootings do so out of ignorance; adults involved in same do so out of stupidity, which makes me question the use of the term "well-educated." As far as those being "better-documented" than "I scared off a burglar," I might point out that instances where licensed carriers of concealed weapons have dealt with mentally unstable folks in public places ARE documented; and the only reason "I scared off a burglar" usually isn't is because folks don't bother calling the police and reporting the incident.

As regards your imaginary country where only criminals have guns, where the HELL do you think those criminals are getting the guns. The are stolen from houses of law-abiding citizens. The are sold by "gun collectors" at swap meets and through the
want ads. These are big holes we "anti-gun fanatics" could have plugged years ago if it weren't for the lobby efforts of the N.R.A.

And the most deadly ones are stolen or acquired from places where they'd still be available if we completely banned their manufacture for the public. Naturally, however, you completely missed my point; there are so many guns already in the hands of those who would NOT give them up under any circumstances - criminals and 'normal' citizens alike - that taking the 'right' to possess them away from law-abiding citizens would hardly make a dent. I have yet to see an escaped horse appear in a barn after the barn door's been closed, and anyone who actually entertains the idea that a wholesale ban on public gun ownership would somehow make guns go away is living in a dream world... just like people who think telling their kids not to have sex will prevent teenage pregnancy, and people who think telling their kids not to drink will keep them sober. You have to teach them why it's not a bright idea, just as you have to teach people how to properly handle the responsibility of gun ownership.

Yes, responsibility. If our society hadn't deteriorated to such a level where the average mook doesn't realize rights carry responsibilities, this wouldn't be a problem.

The supposed right to own a gun VS. The right to life. Why the hell is there even a debate?

The debate isn't about the "right" to own a gun, or at least it shouldn't be. The debate should be about how society can go about curing a problem that won't just go away if we wish really hard.


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~jon

Drain Bead,

From reading your previous posts I can tell you we have some similar backgrounds. However you seem to be flaming me a little for reasons unknown. Maybe I wasn't clear about where I'm coming from here...

First of all I don't need to get off of my "Hiney" to do anything. I have a great relationship with my kids. (four of them, ages 2-12)We spend lots of time together talking and playing. They are home schooled by their mother and myself. We do watch television together because there is alot of great stuff to be seen. (Once you wade through the trash) You are right about my kids needing therapy, and they get plenty of it. It's called Love.

I certainly don't think I'm the ideal parent and I hope I never do feel that way. Parenting is never a job you can do to well.

My problem with our entertainment industry is the constant glorification of violence.
I know my children aren't watching it in our home, but I'm concerned because I know that some poor children are "raised" by the T.V. These are the children that I'm afraid for and of. The ones that might be sharing a bus seat or a classroom with one of my daughters in a few years. Believe me I've donated some time to work with kid like these and it is scary and tragic. They don't know where fantasy stops and reality begins. I'm not talking about little kid here, I'm talking about young men and women that are 16 and 17 years old.

I guess what I'm trying to do here by bringing up the whole hollywood thing is this; I wish to make some of the people that cry for more laws in hopes of reducing horrible things from happening realize that the answer is not more laws. It all boils down to personal responsibility. Any coward or blow hard can make more laws. I hope we can agree on these things.

Now If you'll excuse me I need to go shopping for some ammo. I'm taking my oldest daughter target shooting for the first time this weekend.

I'm a real glutten for punishment for saying that here aren't I?



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For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18

Slythe, Shut UP.

Do you have ANYThing useful to contribute here? So far you have personally attacked several individuals who ARE trying to contribute thier honest opinions.

I don't care if you were potty trained at gunpoint, or if someone who owned a bible beat you as a child. And frankly I don't give a Rats Ass.

You said the following: Come on, gun enthuiasts, speak up! Can't take a little logic and common sense?

Well, this lead some of us to assume you had something logical and rooted in common sense to say, but were still waiting....

You've even attacked someone's religious beliefs when you noted the signature on thier posts had a scripture quoted. What is your problem, freak?

You don't give a "Rat's ass" about my background, and I'm a "freak". I should "shut up" because I have nothing useful to say. Gee, your're right..maybe I should stop attacking others.
By the way, any comment on the "survey" site that John 3:16 "dared" us to have the "courage" to check out.

To John 3:16,
Considering your name and signature, I think you know what I mean by religionist. If I sound a little personal in my attacks, maybe it's because your kind (most religions) has hunted and killed MY kind throughout history.
Are you trying to tell me that the bible has no part in your belief in the death penalty?



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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter Thompson

John_3:16, you do appear to be a "bible thumper", and from my own experience (and I would assume Slythe’s as well) that most pro-NRA, bible thumpers are religious over-the-top types that have this construct of selective biblical retention when they argue, HOWEVER that being said you haven’t actually whipped out any biblical verses yet, so Slythe, CHILL OUT, don’t rip somebody’s head off until they deserve it. Additionally Relaxed, I don’t know which is worse, Slythe jumping to conclusions or you freaking out about him/her jumping to conclusion, but anyway...

John_3:16, that survey/web site is horseshit. Pure unadulterated, 100% horseshit. That survey made me think of those TV commercials by HP, five (or so) years ago where their tag line was "what if". Anyone with enough time, a web site, a hypothetical imagination and a completely skewed opinion of one point of view can construct the same thing for any argument and I discount it completely.

If your remark about "courage" to view this website was leading us pro-gun control folks to check it out, because I might be afraid that it makes me question my beliefs, get a clue. What I can’t believe is that people like you and your ilk don’t question your pro-gun beliefs thinking about the 16 dead kids who were going to school and got killed by a tool that has no purpose but to kill and destroy (TEC-9). John_3:16 you talk about not enough in the world and love this and love that, love is good, blah, blah, blah; how can you spew such bullshit when you defend a product that has one purpose and one purpose only: destruction.

Sure banning all guns tomorrow will not solve anything immediately, but you have to start somewhere. Maybe it will take five years, ten years, fifty years, but the fact of the matter is that eventually there will be either no more or extremely less amounts of drive-bys, school shootings, armed assaults, etc. Can’t you people see this logic? Is sport shooting and hunting so much a part of our society that we won’t/can’t forsake them for a safer, gun-reduced country? Does anyone really think that self defense is the only reason that gun control legislature should not be passed or is it the millions of dollars of lobbying efforts that the NRA stuffs into pockets of Congressional sleazebags every year?

John,
Yes religions have attacked each other over the centuries, and then became allies later.
Unfortunately, I belong to the group they ALL hate. You will notice that the personal attacks on me did not begin until I stated that I was an atheist. I wasn't a "jerk" that should "shut up" when I stated my opinion on guns.
It is not necessary to love me, just try to respect that I, over a period of 40 years, I have formed an opinion different than yours.
Loving EVERYONE on earth dilutes the meaning of the word. My opinion of the "survey" remains the same. Not knowing you personally,
I have no opinion, good or bad.
My opinion of Relaxed, on the other hand, is that of an oaf with the manners of a spoiled child. This is not an unwarrented attack, this is an observation of Relaxed's debating skills.

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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter Thompson

Dear Slythe et al.
I am not a member of the NRA nor do I consider myself a gun nut. I do own a rifle and a shotgun, though.
I believe the Second Amendment quite clearly gives people the right to own guns. I think this is an important right since I do not trust police, and, yes, you will pry my guns from my dead fingers -- I am not giving them up to please hysterics.
I could be wrong in this impression, but I sense that many of you are urban dwellers. I believe much of the NRA's membership is comprised of rural dwellers.
This is an important distinction. Many of you cityfolk never see a gun unless you are on the wrong end of one. By contrast, many rural dwellers grow up with guns (I know my father taught me how to use a rifle when I was 11) and know how to use them safely.
Most rural dwellers tend to favor gun ownership, I think, because we are a tad more self-reliant than other Americans and because we live in lonely areas. I live in an old farmhouse in Indiana as about as far away from civilization as you can get in that state. Given that the local police are stupid, corrupt jerks (the only time I have seen a deputy on my road occured when my office called the police to determine why I hadn't come in for two days -- I had a herniated disc in my back and no telephone) I might as well protect myself; I cannot count on "the long arm of the law."
Most, if not all of my neighbors, own guns. At times, when the family across the ridge wants to indulge in target practice, the area near my house sounds like a small war.
Yet, there have no acts of violence in my area that I know of. And I have been able to leave valuable items, such as a camera, in an unlocked vehicle overnight. Can any of you urban liberals say this?
Thought not.
What many respondents to this post have clearly overlooked is that the Littleton thugs had been planning mayhem for a long time. If the newspapers are right, the perps had been planning this for as long as a year. Even if the U.S. had the gun control laws some of you want, the assholes would still have been able to go on a murderous rampage since they were willing to make bombs.
As this incident proves, it is not that hard to make bombs at home. And explosives can kill people just as dead as guns. I suppose we should all be thankful that the "Trench Coat Mafia" did not try to imitate Timothy McVeigh and use a car bomb.
I don't believe gun ownership is a major factor in the U.S. murder rate. For one thing, the number of murders commited with weapons other than guns in this country tends to be higher than comparable rates in the other industrialized countries. I notice that all gun-control advocates take great care not to mention the murder rate for Switzerland where every adult male is required to own an automatic weapon.
Contributing factors to the American murder rate, I think, are this country's tradition of rebellion, the tensions between the races and the fact that this society is still close to its pioneer roots. An even bigger factor is the current American fashion of avoiding responsibility and blaming other people for our own mistakes.

Sorry if you took that wrong, John 3:16. It was supposed to be a general "you" as opposed to you specifically, and I can see how you might have taken that the wrong way.

Hope your girl has fun target shooting...I learned when I was 13, and I've loved it ever since.

Arguements based on unwarrented assumptions are not smart.
I was raised in Northern Idaho, and you can't get more rural than that. Everyone had guns, but life was not as nice as you would make it out to be. If you were new, or had "libral" leanings, you got your windows shot out in the middle of the night. If you didn't have the right opinions at school, the teachers wouldn't help you, because YOU weren't trying to get along.
Instead of trying to apply cheap labels to those who don't agree with you, why not listen.
By the way, gun ownership IS a major factor in accidental shootings and murders.
Lastly, you have no say in "your" NRA. most of its funding comes from the weapons makers and sellers, not its membership. You are merely the unwitting front-man for them. Have you seen the financial records of the NRA?


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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter Thompson

Slythe,

I understand your point of view and anger. Persecution is not new to me either. What is your opinion on how we can end it? I'm willing to look beneath the suface of your comments and realize that there is something I can love about you. If more people had this
attitude maybe we and those like us wouldn't have to suffer as much.

Slythe, I do believe in God. But I do have a problem with religion. The atrocities that have been committed by one religious group to another throughout time are disgusting and shameful. I was a devote athiest for 15 years after growing up in a very abusive religion. It wasn't until I realized that there is a big difference between God and "Religion" that I started reading the bible again. There is alot of wierd stuff in the Bible that I don't understand, but I know there is a God. You mentioned the death penalty. That is interesting because that's been weighing heavily on my lately. I can't seem to make up my mind on that one. Certainly, if I were to base a view on biblical writings
then it would depend on what book of the bible I'm reading :)What is your opinion?

Jahender,

Your right about that survey. Sometimes it's utter silliness that gives people food for thought. You are plainly intelligent and I certainly didn't mean to insult anyone. And no, I also didn't think it would change anyone's mind.

Yes, I do spout "Love" alot because it is the absence of love that causes violence. Not someone's access to a gun. We have to change People, not objects that can be used as weapons. I get the feeling that some folk's have lived a loveless life for so long that they can't even conceive what one would be like. I know it sounds corny in our society today, But love is the Only answer...

Your quote:
John_3:16 you talk about not enough in the world and love this and love that, love is good, blah, blah, blah; how can you spew such bullshit when you defend a product that has one purpose and one purpose only: destruction.

End quote...

I'm so sorry that love is just Blah, Blah, Blah, and Bullshit to you. I hope your life gets a little better.

I'm not defending the TEC-9 firearm. What made you think I was. Given my choice, I would never own such a useless piece of thrash. But that is just MY opinion, and it's just as worthless as your's.
I would never own a gremlin automobile either.

Another qoute:
Sure banning all guns tomorrow will not solve anything immediately, but you have to start somewhere. Maybe it will take five years, ten years, fifty years, but the fact of the matter is that eventually there will be either no more or extremely less amounts of drive-bys, school shootings, armed assaults, etc. Can’t you people see this logic?

End Quote....


What logic? Do you really think that that making guns illegal with stop hate? No, the hate will still be there and guns will still be in the hands of the lawless. The people that can't find a black market dealer will just use another tool to project their hate.
I agree with you that we have to start somewhere. I respect your ideas. But I don't think your solutions will work to the ends you want to achieve.




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For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18

For more on Rep. Dean, go to this site:

http://www.cnn.com/US/9904/29/lawmaker.threats.reut/

Although i agree with the backlash against this man's cause, i don't agree with the methods. Its the old mob mentality that we see with the pro-lifers who decide that killing abortion docs is OK.

shiner bock

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"Now its over, I'm dead and I haven't done anything that I want, or I'm still alive and there's nothing I want to do." -- They Might Be Giants

Hello all,
As I scrolled down this topic, I read stuff about guns, rights, parenting, and religion. Attacking someone because of their beliefs is kindof the root of the problem! We as humans can believe what we want! How ironic that I see some behavior here that sparked the scheme that destroyed Littleton Colorado and shook a powerful nation! The "trenchcoat mafia" had their beliefs, the jocks have their beliefs and the teachers have their beliefs. The lack of tolerance is what caused this tragedy. The jocks thought the two boys were weird and dorky as most do, so the boys had enough. They expressed their anger the wrong way, but it sounds like they were a powder keg (or a propane tank) waiting to explode.
If parents could THINK and try hard, maybe some of this could be avoided. I am not a parent and am only 23, but I can see that parenting is HARD. It is not something that is easy and it required attention 24/7. I grew up with spankings and only one TV in the house and I like the way I turned out. Not perfect, but not killing, raping, drugging, stealing or any of that crap. The spankings were not a form of "beating" but more of a deterrent. Before I decided to steal that GI Joe toy from Wal Mart I thought about the BIG TIME trouble that would result. When parents look the other way, that's when problems arise. When they fill their children's head with their off-kilter beliefs, then problems arise. When they don't take the time to help their kid with Algebra homework, they want to blame teachers. It seems to be a trend of blaming. If a teacher does something to combat a discipline problem, she risks getting SUED. How stupid.
So, with that being said, banning guns won't help. Stricter laws will until people find a way around them. What's guaranteed is that parental education about the dangers of guns, violence and anger WILL help. It's awkward, hard and sometimes a chore. When you hop into the sack looking for extra welfare money or that additional tax break, think about the job you have. Man, if they would only think.

[[ Attacking someone because of their beliefs is kindof the root of the problem! We as humans can believe what we want! ]]

Including the belief that a lot of what other people believe is moronic.

I, for one, refuse to hit my child. How can I teach him that violence is not a solution if I resort to it. Teaching a child that violence is how the strong control the weak is taught too well through movies, videos, television and the like. If by example I can teach him all the other ways there are to solve problems, most of which will not bring on feelings of retaliation on the part of the other person, he will grow up to be a MUCH better person. Revenge is a learned behavior, and I refuse to teach it.

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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter Thompson