Frist adopted cats for medical experiments

[RTA]

Finally happened across this little tidbit: in his 1989 autobiography, Sen. Bill Frist (R) freely admits that while he was a young student at Harvard Med he would frequent the local animal shelters and adopt cute fuzzy kitties, promising the shelter that he would give them a good and loving home.

He would then take the cats home and perform all manner of surgical vivisection and amateur medical experiments on said cute fuzzy kitties!

Naturally he now affirms, in proper politico fashion, that what he did was wrong and he expresses remorse. I certainly agree with him that it was textbook "wrong" behavior. In fact, most people who do that sort of thing find themselves either in jail or a mental hospital, and certainly on some kind of serial killer watch list. But in the post-Lott GOP-world, they hand you the keys to the kingdom (blacks vote, cats don't).

Allow me to rephrase: Aieeee!! Dicing up kittycats for personal enlightenment?! Sick fuck! What did you use for anaethesia? Nothing? I dare you to run for President! Ripper! Gah! And the GOP holding you up as a role model! Jeez!

[Master Wang-Ka]

So lemme get this straight:

He lied to individuals at city-run services, stating loads of love and good intentions, which all turned out to be a load of hooey.

He then used the fruits of those deceptions to further his own agenda, leading to his own ascension into a situation that allowed him to make boocoo bucks, achieve personal power, and eventually got him where he is today.

Hell, the man sounds like the living symbol of The Modern Republican...

[MsRobyn]

RTA, considering the fact that Dr. Frist is fairly well-regarded as a surgeon, maybe the practice on the cats wasn't such a bad thing after all. Med students have to learn on something before they can learn on humans, and the classes they take in school also involve "surgery" on cats and dogs. Yeah, I know it's oogy, but until something better comes along, that's the best we can do.

Robin

[Master Wang-Ka]

Yeah, but people take their cats to the animal shelter hoping they'll get adopted. Quite a few shelters don't put their animals to sleep on just that basis.

While we don't know if Frist actually went to THAT kind of shelter, I somehow don't think it crossed his mind NOT to.

In short, he lied to people to get what he wanted and advance his career.

I'm sure he dissected cadavers while in medical school, but I think if he'd made a point of getting them by adopting children from orphanages, someone might have made a noise, yes?

But what the hell. It's only kitty cats, right?

[Drastic]

I heard that he rejected the cats that weren't cute enough, and effected an exaggerated German accent when doing so.

[RTA]

So MsRobyn, the ends always, always justify the means?

Med students everywhere, they should feel unsatisfied with the plentiful and already dead and prepped specimens they are provided in school, and should naturally seek out their own living, adoptable specimens for home study, so they can be as "well-regarded" (read "famous") as Bill Frist?

How many doctors in fiction have we seen, who arrogantly assert that their heinous methods only provide them further with godlike powers of life and death?

[Koxinga]

Und he uzually insisted on TVINS! I must have TVIN KITTY KATZ fur mein RESEARCH!

(Sorry, I know that's in kind of poor taste.)

[Koxinga]

Originally posted by RTA
How many doctors in fiction have we seen, who arrogantly assert that their heinous methods only provide them further with godlike powers of life and death?

Um . . . why do they call it fiction, again?

[RTA]

Ideally these aberrations are restricted to fiction, but we have seen an assertion that insinuates that whatever doctors want to do to futher their abilities is OK.

[Koxinga]

Are you personally acquainted with any doctors, RTA? Outside of fiction, I mean.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Well, the local animal shelters had to have known what was going on--here's this young med student, coming back again for another cat...

Sad to say, I think some animal shelter employees are just happy to get the animals off their hands. Wishful thinking? Denial? Or just not giving a shit? Who knows?

I've never been through med school myself, but I wonder if it's SOP for medical students to go find their own animals to experiment on. I'm betting that it's not, that this was just his own idea.

And actually, I think I'll go over to GQ and ask the Doper Doctors. Excuse me...

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Doper doc here. Nope, I never went out and found animals to cut up. Med school supplied us with pigs (dogs had too many parasites) and we did surgery on them. It was always emphasized to us that we had to give proper post-op care, especially pain medication. Did they suffer? Certainly. Did they die? Sure. We were in training. Were there alternatives? Nothing quite so good. I want the surgeon opening up my kid to have tons of experience. And if he went to a school where they were unable or unwilling to provide animals to practice on, I can see a legitimate need for learning on one's own. I would hope the med school would have more resources than that.

My daughter has cystic fibrosis and diabetes related to her CF. If her doctor (whom I trust) tells me that she thinks she can understand the diseases better and discover better therapies by sawing off the top of a monkey's skull and hooking up its brains to a car battery with a pair of jumper cables, all I can say is "Red is positive, black is negative".

[Manda JO]

As far a "nice dead cadavers" go, I don't know about med school, but I know if vet school all the practice surgerys are terminal: after the animal sucessfully comes out of anesthesia, it is put down. Which, if you think about it, makes sense: why spend the money nursing an animal after surguery when you could spend that same money keeping two of three animals alive at a shelter longer, and increase their chances for adoption.

[MsRobyn]

Originally posted by RTA
So MsRobyn, the ends always, always justify the means?

Med students everywhere, they should feel unsatisfied with the plentiful and already dead and prepped specimens they are provided in school, and should naturally seek out their own living, adoptable specimens for home study, so they can be as "well-regarded" (read "famous") as Bill Frist?

How many doctors in fiction have we seen, who arrogantly assert that their heinous methods only provide them further with godlike powers of life and death?

Except the animals aren't pre-dead or prepped for surgery classes in med school.

I'm sorry if dissecting cute little kitty cats bothers you, RTA. I think you're confusing animal torture, which is pathological, with desire to learn and improve one's skill, which is not.

Dr. Frist is well-regarded because he is an excellent surgeon with a reputation for helping his patients. I think that if someone you loved or you yourself needed surgery, you'd want someone as good as he. That can only come through training and practice.

Robin

[MsRobyn]

And on preview, what Qagdop said.

Robin

[Master Wang-Ka]

Hey, I'm not beefin' about the man dissecting animals.

I'm beefin' about the man lying to people in order to obtain them.

If he obtained them from a medical supply place, a place that breeds animals for sale to vet schools or med schools or whatever, I would have nothing to say here.

...but I think lying to animal shelter employees in order to obtain animals under false pretenses shows a definite lack of moral fiber, there. Not that most politicians are oversupplied with that commodity, anyway, but that particular manifestation bothers me...

[Brutus]

Originally posted by Wang-Ka
...He then used the fruits of those deceptions to further his own agenda, leading to his own ascension into a situation that allowed him to make boocoo bucks, achieve personal power, and eventually got him where he is today


He used the fruits of those deceptions to become a frigging doctor. Not as in 'Dr.Evil', but as in 'Thanks for developing those new organ-transpant methods, doctor'.

[FairyChatMom]

How many animals in shelters are actually adopted? When I was at our local shelter recently to see if our runaway dog had been picked up, the cages were loaded with dogs - sometimes 3-4 per cage. For the most part, they weren't cute and cuddly with big sad eyes - they were forlorn, raggedy-looking, and destined to be destroyed. I had to steel myself because there was no way I could adopt one, and I knew what fate awaited them. I didn't go past the cat cages, but I expect it was the same story.

So, is it better for the animal to be destroyed or used to learn something? Either way, it's just as dead. Does a lie make it any deader?

[Soul Brother Number Two]

I personally find it creepy as hell. Did he attend the Papa Doc Medical School? The doctors I know wouldn't have had the time to be, um, "experimenting" on their own time whilst in med school.

I do not like thee, Dr. Frist.

[gobear]

Sorry,
Frist apoligists, but there is a HUGE difference between learning the craft of surgery by operating on animals in a supervised lab setting as part of the medical school curriculum and lying to an animal shelter to take kittens home to experiment on.

And by those standards Jeffrey Dahmer was just learning to be an executive chef, too?

[burundi]

It doesn't matter how many animals are euthanized at the shelter. He made a promised, probably signed a contract, knowing that he intended to renege on it.

I work at a shelter, and if we found out someone was doing this, we'd sic the sheriff on them for anything we could. Those of us that work at shelters form emotional attachments to the animals we put up for adoption, and those emotional ties mean that what he's doing is one step removed from kidnapping someone's companion animal and killing it.

We adopt animals out with the explicit understanding that the adopter will provide the animal with a good home. It is despicable to lie to someone about your intentions in this manner.

Especially for a politician of a party that holds private property and the right of contract to be sacred.

Daniel

[elucidator]

Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan
... hooking up its brains to a car battery with a pair of jumper cables, all I can say is "Red is positive, black is negative".
Line lifted from Dennis Miller, unattributed. Tsk.

All of a sudden Dr. Frist. The splendour and the wonder of the man is shouted from the rooftops. Well, there is this one rather unsavory incident. I remain suspicious, but as open-minded as I can for one who is allied to the Forces of Darkness.

I have heard rumors to the effect that he is the original source of the Anonymous Amendment to the Homeland Security Bill. The idea of indemnifying any corporation from legal vexations is troubling enough. But that it was done under cover of darkness and the perpetrator didn't even have the guts to attach his name to it......speaks volumes. If this should prove true, his case would be closed in my book, barring dramatic reformation of character.

To hell with the kitty kats. What's he doing to us?

[Koxinga]

You guys really are grasping at straws, you know that?

[bobkitty]

[minor nitpick]

Originally posted by elucidator
Line lifted from Dennis Miller, unattributed. Tsk.

Dennis Leary

[/minor nitpick]

Proceed.

[Revtim]

Both wrong. That's from Nick DePaulo.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

hell, I couldn't remember who I lifted it from

[Revtim]

Or DiPaulo, before I get nitpicked back.

[RTA]

Are you personally acquainted with any doctors, RTA? Outside of fiction, I mean.

Yes and if he was here I am quite certain that he would say, if not "Dude that's fucked up. No way", then something very close to it. But I can call him if you want.

And if he went to a school where they were unable or unwilling to provide animals to practice on, I can see a legitimate need for learning on one's own. I would hope the med school would have more resources than that.

Absolutely - Harvard Med is a notoriously primitive and underfunded shithole, and it's a wonder anyone wants to go there. /sarcasm

[elucidator]

[very, very minor nitpick] Denis Leary.[end]

QtM Quite all right, I'm sure. I, myself, suffer minor memory lapses due to age and a lifelong program of glaucoma prevention.

[Koxinga]

But what happened to the monkey?

Poor monkey . . .

[Airman Doors, USAF]

I love how you guys are all broken up about the poor animals and are condemning this man for it, instead of praising him for praising him for helping these people (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/02/frist.aid/index.html).

I didn't see anything at all about that here, but I do see condemnation for a man who took animals who were going to die anyway and put them to a good purpose. Let's just find a reason to bitch, why don't we.

You animal rights people are a pain. NO animals are as valuable as human beings, and if that's how he got his experience, then great. I'll find some more cats and send them to him.

[gobear]

You animal rights people are a pain. NO animals are as valuable as human beings, and if that's how he got his experience, then great. I'll find some more cats and send them to him.

I think the point has eluded you. It's not animal experimentation in itself as part of a medical school curriculum, which we all agree is unpleasant but necessary, that is so horrifying, but that Frist a) lied in order to b) obtain kittens to take home and c)torture.

Animal experimentation in a lab setting with professorial supervision is one thing, but Frist was engaging in do-it-yourself vivisection for fun and games, which is just evil.

[Koxinga]

Oh Lord.

(a) Big. (b) Deal.

I agree with Qadop and Airman. If hooking up those kittens' brains to jumper cables made him all the more capable of selflessly helping the people in that wreck, more power to him.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Oh, fuck. The previous post by Burundi? 'Twas me.

I'm delighted to see what respect Republicans have for contract law. Apparently, as long as you're violating a contract in order to further your education, it's okay.

So I can write you a bad check, as long as it's for textbooks? How is that different from signing a form promising not to experiment on cats and then doing so? (Except that when I write the bad check, no animals die.)

Grasping at straws indeed.
Daniel

[Koxinga]

He admitted what he did was wrong and apologized, for what must have been no more than a low-level midemeanor. It's not like lied under oath or anything. What more do you want?

[Ferret Herder]

I can't speak to whether Sen. Frist treated his "extracurricular" animal subjects in a humane fashion (perhaps he bought or "borrowed" a full set of dissection tools and anesthesia/euthanasia equipment as well), but the point remains that no reputable medical school would endorse such activity. That's not an "animal rights" thing, it's part of the proper ethical and scientific training as a scientist or physician. He went to Harvard-freaking-Medical School for heaven's sake, they're hardly short on educational opportunities and funding. Plenty of other highly skilled physicians got to his level of ability without hitting the pound for practice.

It was a very good thing that the Senator did, stopping to help those people. I work with physicians and know that they would do likewise if they were able to and thought they could provide assistance. Sen. Frist got newspaper articles about it because he's a senator, though.

I personally don't think he should be attacked over this, but he should definitely acknowledge that what he did was not right. It was a severe lapse of judgement on his part.

[Brutus]

Originally posted by DanielWithrow
Oh, fuck. The previous post by Burundi? 'Twas me.

I'm delighted to see what respect Republicans have for contract law. Apparently, as long as you're violating a contract in order to further your education, it's okay.

So I can write you a bad check, as long as it's for textbooks? How is that different from signing a form promising not to experiment on cats and then doing so? (Except that when I write the bad check, no animals die.)

Grasping at straws indeed.
Daniel

Lets see a cite for the contract that Frist broke. This was back in the 70's. For all you know, the shelter had a 'first come, first serve, all you can eat kitten' policy.

And lets see a cite for the 'torture' assertion you make, Gobear

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Does "probably signed a contract" mean that he did? What you said was just speculation.

If not, your accusation is groundless. And your rhetoric is as pointless as it is amusing.

[Ferret Herder]

:smack: Change the last sentence to "should definitely and did acknowledge" - I knew he did but neglected to put that in there.

[presidebt]

Lying is an impeachable offense for Democrats, a justifiable training activity for Republicans. And some people say there is no difference between parties anymore...

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Nope, lying under oath is an impeachable offense, tough.

Thanks for your contibution as well.

[RTA]

Once again we see how any issue with any Republican compels further regurgitation of how Clinton got a blowjob then hemmed and hawed about it before the drooling perversions of the Starr chamber. Props.

[Koxinga]

Why is it that if one mentions lying under oath, you immediately think of Clinton? *I* didn't mention him by name. Is the association really that strong in your mind?

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally posted by Brutus
Lets see a cite for the contract that Frist broke. This was back in the 70's. For all you know, the shelter had a 'first come, first serve, all you can eat kitten' policy.

And lets see a cite for the 'torture' assertion you make, Gobear

Tee hee! Let's all ask for impossible-to-obtain cites!

You're right: since my only information about this is from an account of his memoirs, I can't prove the contract specified that he wouldn't use the cats for experimentation.

If he just "promised" that he'd give them a good home, didn't sign a paper to that effect, then he's merely a despicable liar, rather than a despicable liar-on-paper.

Daniel

[DoctorJ]

Heck, for that matter, why don't medical students just go out and rob graves to find bodies to practice on? I mean, the people are dead anyway, and if it furthers their skills, so be it. (Yes, this was done in the past.)

I was never comfortable with the idea of "pig lab" (although I never had to do it, since I'm not a surgeon), but I understand the necessity of the exercise. Getting animals under false pretenses to practice on at home, however, is offensive in the extreme; it perpetuates the now-receding cold and inhuman stereotype of doctors.

It would take a lot to convince me that Harvard Med did not offer Dr. Frist ample opportunity to practice his skills without resorting to these disturbing methods. Maybe med school and residency were different back then, but I know a lot of people training to be surgeons right now, and they would never do such a thing, and I can't see their skill suffering for it.

Dr. J

[elucidator]

Apparently, there is, indeed, more than one way to skin a cat. Some are more entertaining than others.

Does Dr. Frist actually say that he was seeking to further his skills, and that no alternatives were available. Would that hold water, under the circumstances? Most importantly, what was the level of suffering he put these animals to.

If he had no option (which seems frankly unlikely, but I don't have any first hand knowledge), then I suppose some justification could be inferred. But if a conjecture of noble purpose isn't supportable, we have only some fairly creepy alternatives.

[Revtim]

Originally posted by RTA
most people who do that sort of thing find themselves either in jail or a mental hospital, and certainly on some kind of serial killer watch list.Heh, I thought the same thing when I first heard about this. I hope there was a big difference between his experiments and say, Jeffery Dahmer's childhood "experiments" with animals.

[Koxinga]

To all appearances, Dr. Frist has done a lot more good in the world than the clowns who are intent on slandering him here. Comparing him to Jeffery Dahmer. :rolleyes: Given the lives that he's saved in his career, do you realize how pathetic that makes you sound?

[gobear]

Read the OP, Brutus. Performinmg vivisection counts as torture.

[Revtim]

Chill out DR, I wasn't seriously suggesting he's a serial killer. Lighten up, do you realize how pathetic you sound?

[Koxinga]

You know, I've always liked Steve McQueen, and in the film Tom Horn, he made the following observation about a popular prize fighter back in the Wild West days:

"Geronimo is so great that Corbett there would have to stand on his mother's shoulders just to kiss his ass."

I don't know if Dr. Frist is as great as Geronimo, but I know Revtim's mother by rights ought to be *awfully* tall.

[Brutus]

Originally posted by DanielWithrow
Tee hee! Let's all ask for impossible-to-obtain cites!

You're right: since my only information about this is from an account of his memoirs, I can't prove the contract specified that he wouldn't use the cats for experimentation.

If he just "promised" that he'd give them a good home, didn't sign a paper to that effect, then he's merely a despicable liar, rather than a despicable liar-on-paper.

Daniel

Uh, ya. Lets ask for 'impossible to obtain' cites. But only in the case of 'impossible to prove assertions'. Fair?

[Revtim]

Wow, complete lack of a sense of humor. I pity you, DR.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Originally posted by RTA
Once again we see how any issue with any Republican compels further regurgitation of how Clinton got a blowjob then hemmed and hawed about it before the drooling perversions of the Starr chamber. Props.

Sorry. I guess I should just let the allusion posted by presidebt go unanswered. Gotcha. I didn't even mention the name of your godhead, just retorted in kind.

Oh, and I'm an independent, FYI, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna support a criminal.

[wring]

Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF
Oh, and I'm an independent, FYI, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna support a criminal.

Both Bush and Chaney had convictions for drunk driving. Or don't you count misdemeanors as criminal acts?

[Broomstick]

Originally posted by RTA
in his 1989 autobiography, Sen. Bill Frist (R) freely admits that while he was a young student at Harvard Med he would frequent the local animal shelters and adopt cute fuzzy kitties, promising the shelter that he would give them a good and loving home.

He would then take the cats home and perform all manner of surgical vivisection and amateur medical experiments on said cute fuzzy kitties!

Naturally he now affirms, in proper politico fashion, that what he did was wrong and he expresses remorse. I certainly agree with him that it was textbook "wrong" behavior. In fact, most people who do that sort of thing find themselves either in jail or a mental hospital, and certainly on some kind of serial killer watch list. But in the post-Lott GOP-world, they hand you the keys to the kingdom (blacks vote, cats don't).

Allow me to rephrase: Aieeee!! Dicing up kittycats for personal enlightenment?! Sick fuck! What did you use for anaethesia? Nothing? I dare you to run for President! Ripper! Gah! And the GOP holding you up as a role model! Jeez!OK, now that some of us have gotten the initial screaming out of our systems let's revisit the OP.

First of all - yes, it was despicable to say he'd give some kitties a good home when his intention was to practice various surgical techniques on them. Apparently he has said as much, expressed remorse, and otherwise made some atonement for this sin.

Second - did he or didn't he provide anesthetia? To my mind there is a major difference between experimenting on concious vs. unconcious animals. Did the memoir state one thing or another, or are you jumping to conclusions?

Third - I don't know if this goes on today, but I'm pretty sure in the not-too-distant past animal shelters WERE a source of experimental lab animals. C. Everett Koop has made some reference to this sort of thing in his training many many years ago, and to using animals to practice new surgical techniques on. In his case, this was done with proper anesthesia, and only after the initial details had been worked out on deceased animals (which might also be obtained from animal shelters, for all I know). Icky, but unfortunately surgery still requires practice on living creatures.

Fourth - it's really disturbing to think this, but what surgeons and serial killers do really ISN'T that far apart. If Bill Frist had no medical degree and used a saw to open someone's chest and cut out their heart he'd be in an orange jumpsuit in front of judge with the public demanding his death. But because he's a heart surgeon he was paid enormous amounts of money and greatly admired for his skill in sawing open peoples' chests and removing their hearts (he also put in another heart - obtained by sawing open someone else's chest - and sewed them back up. Details). What matters is not so much the actions here but the intent.

In other words, no matter how humanely done, "dicing up" cats purely for your own amusement is evil. Doing it to learn surgery could be justifiable.

Fifth - a lot of people don't give a damn about animals. Sorry, folks, it's true. I think it's horrible, too, but I've met a lot of people in my life who think animals feel no pain, or that their pain doesn't matter, and have no qualms about causing agonizng deaths. I had a boyfriend once whose mother supplied her sons with gasoline and matches for the express purpose of catching neighborhood cats and setting them on fire. She thought this was perfectly normal and couldn't understand why it upset people, since she had been taught from an early age all cats were evil and tools of the devil. I've known other folks with similar callous attitudes. Maybe earlier in his life Senator Frist was one of these folks and he's since learned differently. I don't know. I don't think anyone on this thread knows, either.

[Zoe]

I am a Democrat, a liberal, an animal rights advocate, and a former volunteer docent at a nearby wildlife park. I am also a cat lover.

Doghouse doesn't sound pathetic to me at all. You, Revtim, were using a common and unreasonable propoganda technique and deserved to be called on it.

I did plenty of stupid things in my twenties which I later regretted. Senator Frist confessed what he had done and acknowledged that it wasn't right. I doubt that anyone would have known about it if he hadn't written about it himself.

elucidator said:
I have heard rumors... to the effect that he is the original source of the Anonymous Amendment to the Homeland Security Bill. The idea of indemnifying any corporation from legal vexations is troubling enough. But that ...it was done under cover of darkness and the perpetrator didn't even have the guts to attach his name to it......speaks volumes.

No offense to you personally elucidator, but rumors shouldn't "speak volumes."

Although I disagree with his politics, he is a gentleman and a great surgeon. He comes from a family of physicians who are known for their benevolence and generosity. Among other contributions, he and his family have been particularly generous to animal care and education through the local zoo.

Why not pick on some of the real sleeze-bags in office? They abound!

[irishgirl]

urghh!
i mean urghh!

oh, and yes, i'm a med student.

i went from "here is a dead mouse, dissect it."
to
"here is a dead person, dissect them."
in one easy step.

animal subjects are lab animals raised in sterile conditions, and VERY tough regulations ensure that they are treated humanely.

no sudent here is forced to participate in animal experiments, if there is another alternative... i'll be doing a pharmacoeconomics project and a paper on drug storage so i don't have to inject rats with interleukins.

seriously, what did he hope to achieve with vivisecting cats?
he should know enough to realise humans are rather different...

any surgical procedure he wished to practice could be carried out on a donor human cadaver or he could have spent a few more hours observing other surgeons at work.
if it had to be an animal, it should have been in a lab, with proper scientific procedures followed, properly written up, and accountable.

it's not legal, it's not ethical, it's not right, and i sincerely doubt any of his patients benefitted one iota from it.

i hope the courts get him for something, even if it's for breach of contract (assuming he signed something when he adopted the animals).

sick bastard.

[Kantalooppi]

Every time you vote Democratic, Bill Frist kills a kitten.

Ow! Stop throwing things at me!

[shulmahn]

From consumerfreedom.com (http://www.consumerfreedom.com/headline_detail.cfm?HEADLINE_ID=1730)
(the actual post has many more hyperlinks in it)
PETA calls the kettle black
Posted On January 2, 2003

On Tuesday People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) attracted the media’s attention by dredging up a 25-year-old animal cruelty claim against incoming Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN). But curiously enough, no one seems to be talking about PETA’s own history of killing defenseless animals.

Just some food for thought...




edited by UncleBeer - See below

[Airman Doors, USAF]

For the record, I'm not even real fond of Bush/Cheney, either, so try again.

[wring]

Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF
For the record, I'm not even real fond of Bush/Cheney, either, so try again.

Really?

[elucidator]

Zoe Swing and a miss, strike one. There are such rumors. Period. Complete thought.

The person, whomsoever he may be, has indulged in behavior that "speaks volumes". Seperate thought.

Should these rumors prove to be true, I would not regard such a person as fit to be county clerk.

[MsRobyn]

Really. I voted for him, and I've said repeatedly recently that I'm not real happy with what he's doing.

I just loathe our last President and I'm ashamed that he represented my country for eight years.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

You know, I've been married long enough that checking the username every time should be as natural as putting the seat down. The above was me, not Robin.

[wring]

Originally posted by MsRobyn but really apparently it was Airman Doors
Really. I voted for him, and I've said repeatedly recently that I'm not real happy with what he's doing.

I just loathe our last President and I'm ashamed that he represented my country for eight years.

However, the words you used here were and I'm an independent, FYI, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna support a criminal which is why I mentioned Cheney/Bush's criminal records.

See? Apparently, you did "support a criminal" (or rather two).

[Zoe]

from elucidator:
Should these rumors prove to be true, I would not regard such a person as fit to be county clerk.

Why perpetuate rumors? Do you remember the source from which you heard this rumor? Since the OP was about Senator Frist and his misuse and destruction of cats, I am wondering why we are talking about rumors regarding what he may or may not have done "under cover of darkness" politically.

From Irishgirl:
it's not legal, it's not ethical, it's not right, and i sincerely doubt any of his patients benefitted one iota from it.

I don't know what the legalities were, but I agree with you that it was not ethical or appropriate. I'm glad that he addressed the subject in his autobiography. As for whether or not it has helped him with heart transplants, neither you nor I know for certain.

[PosterChild]

Is Frist's political party related to this? Just wondering what the connection is.

PC

[Dr_Paprika]

I think his behaviour was reprehensible. Not like this was the only way for him to practice surgery. He couldn't do electives?

[elucidator]

To repeat a question I asked earlier: did he ever actually say he was motivated by a desire to increase his skills, and did he ever offer any explanation as to why other subjects were unavailable. The articles I find say pretty much the same thing, he says he shouldn't have, and he's sorry he did, but I don't see anything about why.

Now if he were to say "I needed them to perfect my skills" I will be rather pressed. Harvard Medical school does not provide adequate training? I also imagined that surgical skill is not the purview of the medical student. Doesn't one have to graduate medical school before one can "apprentice" to surgery? What set of surgical skills is the average GP expected to master?

[Miller]

As much as I hate to defend any politician, much less a Republican one, I just don't see this as a big deal. Especially considering the almost total dearth of facts we have. Before I can get even mildly perturbed, I'd want to know a few things. And remember, this happened in the '70s, when animal rights were not nearly as much of a concern as they are today:

1) Did the shelters expect him to care for the cats, or did they not care what he did with them, so long as he didn't bring them back?

2) How common was this among surgical students at the time?

3) Did his professors know and/or condone his actions?

4) Did he use anesthetic and proper medical instruments?

5) Was any of this actually illegal?

And even if the answers to these questions are as bad as possible (i.e. They cared, Rare, No, No, and Hell yes!) I'd also like to see how Frist as addressed this issue in his memoirs and what he's done since then to make up for his "crimes." Cruelty to animals isn't very nice, but it's not exactly an unforgivable sin. If he's made good-faith efforts to redress his past actions, I don't see any reason to hold them against him today.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Doghouse, you're being an ass, and you've got the honor of being the first person on the SDMB I've said that to.

I work at a shelter, so this issue hits very close to home for me. That's why I get upset about it.

Emotions aside, what he did was despicable. When someone cares about an animal (do you need a cite to show that folks who work for peanuts at animal shelters care about animals?), lying to them in order to obtain custody of the animals and then killing them is despicable. It is a calculated lie intended to subvert an organization's private property rights, and an individual's emotional attachment to an animal. It is despicable.

(And the fact that he lied about it goes a long way toward demonstrating the need for a lie. If the shelter was willing to give animals up for scientific research, why would he have told them that he was going to give them a good home?)

Whether or not you advocate animal research -- whether or not you've got a daughter suffering from cystic fibrosis -- whether or not you agree with PETA is immaterial. What he did was despicable.

He did apologize for it, and I respect that. But for the sweet sweet love of Jesus and Mary, why are some of you defending something that he himself admits was wrong?

Daniel

[Koxinga]

Why are you singling me out? I just echoed sentiments expressed by others, including our resident MD.

[DoctorJ]

I also imagined that surgical skill is not the purview of the medical student. Doesn't one have to graduate medical school before one can "apprentice" to surgery? What set of surgical skills is the average GP expected to master?
This is true. One generally does not learn to perform surgery in medical school--that is done in a surgery residency. The medical student learns a lot about surgery, and watches and assists on a lot of cases, but does not actually perform surgery. (This may have been different in Frist's day, but I doubt it.)

There are a few things the med student has to master, such as suturing, but this is easily practiced on a pig's foot or even an orange, and certainly does not require a live cat.

If any of my classmates had done something like this--even those who were going to be surgeons, and had a passion for it--I would have considered it very disturbed indeed.

Dr. J

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Does anyone else see the title of this thread and wonder "Gee, who was Sceond to adopt cats for medical experiments?"

[CLedet]

Originally posted by DanielWithrow
He did apologize for it, and I respect that. But for the sweet sweet love of Jesus and Mary, why are some of you defending something that he himself admits was wrong?



Some are defending him because they actually do respect his apology.

Some are defending him because they know he travels around the world on his own dime, and without the media, to treat those that have no access to medicine.

Some are defending him because they believe his whole life should be taken into account before he is judged.

Some are defending him because they see it as a partisan attack.

And in regards to the OP, if this is the worst he's done, and he was man enough to admit it and apologize, he'd make a damn fine president.

[psychobunny]

I think we really need more information here. As a medical student I operated on a dog, although we were allowed to opt out if we had ethical concerns. This was a dog that was being used for faculty research and was scheduled for death. Regardless, the dog was fully anesthetized during surgery and one student was required to act as anesthetist and monitor the dog for any signs of awakening or pain. Postoperatively we were required to follow the dog and write daily progress notes, again, making sure the dog appeared happy, and healthy, was eating and that the pain control was appropriate.
Now, if Senator Frist was doing the same for the kittens, and if in fact this was common practice at the time then I have fewer ethical concerns about it. However, if he lied to get the kittens just to get more surgical practice with no concern for their welfare or for what lies he told to obtain them then I do believe he has something to apologize for and saying that he is a good doctor now is not enough to excuse his behavior.

[wring]

question:

It appeared from the first that he'd operate on the kittens in his home. If he did not (and just took the kittens to the school lab) then nevermind.

is it possible for one person to both anesthitize and operate on a kitten? is it possible/likely he'd have the proper equipment and supplies at his home? did he mention having some one else involved?

[UncleBeer]

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