Chiropractors

[zwaldd]

Is this GD territory? I hurt my back while mountain biking yesterday...just shifted my weight forward to get up over a ledge and my lower back went right out. Had to walk back to the parking lot and the girlfriend had to drive home. I never let people drive my car but it was that painful. I took some ibuprofen, but it still hurts today. To top it off, I'm supposed to go skiing this coming weekend and if it still hurts by then I'm screwed. I'm going to the doc this afternoon and hopefully will get some good painkillers.

So what exactly do chiropractors do in a situation like this. I grew up thinking they were medical 'back and joint specialists', but then I started hearing that doctors dimissed them as quacks, that they don't really do anything. People swear by acupuncture and herbs, which I don't really believe in, and people swear by chiropractors which I don't know whether to trust or not. I do have chronic back issues when excercising - I often have to dismount while riding or take a break running to let the back stop hurting, and it usually does within a couple minutes. Right now my back is still hurting which is unusual, so I'd like to know if someone like a chiropractor may be able to fix it by the end of the week. I tried acupuncture in a similar situation a few years back - acute bike related injury a week before a ski trip - but it was a waste of money.

Also, how much do chiropractors charge, does insurance normally cover it, and can they make the injury worse?

[Yeah]

There was an excellent article on chiropractic in Consumer Reports some years ago. You should be able to find it in any library.

[Charlie Tan]

I can only give you a general answer, since you're there, and I'm here. But I went to see my chiropractor about a week ago. Did wonders for me.
Yes. Many MD's think they're quacks. And they hate them. The reason is that chiropractors get results, where MD's fail.

A real chiropractor will have a university degree with five years of study on joints and backs. Mainly they treat backproblems. A good chiropractor will tell you if s/he can fix you or not. S/he might ask you to bring x-rays. And the treatment is simply manipulating the joints.
I have arthitis. My doc said "Oh, that pain...? Learn to live with it. Many have much worse." Two days later pain was gone, thanks to my chiropractor.

Case against them is that we tend to see them, as a result of a crappy lifestyle - too little excersise, bad work position and ergonomy. By giving a quick and painless fix, they treat a temporary problem, but not what's causing it. So we tend do repeat the mistakes and end up back with the chiropractor.

As for cost - check out these links:

http://chiro.org/
http://chiro-online.com/dcmenu.html

[Uncommon Sense]

Chiropractors vary in their techniques as well as their cost. Many insurances cover limited chiro visits.

Often when being treated for a type of injury you have you may get worse before you get better. A lingereing problem like yours may take many visits to "straighten out" so to speak.

What you will find is that different chiro`s will treat the same problem differently. So you may not get results from one chiro, but the next one you go to may help you.

You would be one of the rare to be treated and fixed by one chiro in a few short visits.

Having said that, I would recomend that you do go and go to a couple of them. Then stick with the one you feel comfortable with. Aggressive treatment isn`t always the best course of action, so be careful of the guy who wants to fix you right away. Also the one who wants to keep you coming back forever may not be agressive enough. Get some references from friends and family to start with and see how things go.

I had a bad lingering lower back problem that was cured by the Second chiro that I went to.

PS They both diagnosed the problem correctly, but the second one had the best treatment technique.

[Epimetheus]

Have you gone to a Sports Therapist and done some therapy to strengthen your back? Best way to prevent back pain is to strengthen the muscles that support the back.

[zwaldd]

Thanks for the advice, all. I'll probably at least go for a consultation and judge their credibility. I will check with Cigna about payment. Epimetheus, I have not seen a sports therapist. My regular exercise consists of mountain biking and treadmill running, but nothing specifically back related, although both the biking and the running do put strain on my back.

[beajerry]

You'd have to check with your insurance co. to be sure of coverage.

There is a good article in the latest Skeptical Inquirer written by a chiropractor about the therapeutic value of it. In it he talks about the poor evidence of 'subluxations' and how sham chiropractors try to fool patients into the repeat-visit shtick (placebo effect), and how 'real' chiropractors can do good in helping people with certain problems. The guy's name is Samuel Homola, D.C.

[Epimetheus]

Well, it doesn't have to be a sports therapist. If you have back pain, it doesn't matter specifically if you participate in sports where the back is related. Most activities use the back, lower back mostly. Strengthening the trunk region (Abs, obliques, erector spinae, etc) is extremely benificial to anybody. Lower back pain can be prevented and even treated with just a few exercises. It doesn't even have to use heavy weights if you don't want to. (though it is much more helpful- progressivly that is)

Here are some examples of exercises to strengthen your trunk region.

http://www.health.com/health/wynks/BackPainWYNK2000-MAL/box1.html

http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/primry/fit11.htm

http://www.back.com/articles-exercises.html

http://www.cpaa.sa.gov.au/benefits_exercise/exercise.html (for older people, but still useful info)

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072441607/student_view0/concept13/chapter_overview.html (no exercises, but general info)

[GOM]

Originally posted by zwaldd
1. Is this GD territory? I hurt my back while mountain biking yesterday...just shifted my weight forward to get up over a ledge and my lower back went right out. Had to walk back to the parking lot and the girlfriend had to drive home. I never let people drive my car but it was that painful. I took some ibuprofen, but it still hurts today. To top it off, I'm supposed to go skiing this coming weekend and if it still hurts by then I'm screwed. I'm going to the doc this afternoon and hopefully will get some good painkillers.

2. So what exactly do chiropractors do in a situation like this. I grew up thinking they were medical 'back and joint specialists', but then I started hearing that doctors dimissed them as quacks, that they don't really do anything. People swear by acupuncture and herbs, which I don't really believe in, and people swear by chiropractors which I don't know whether to trust or not. I do have chronic back issues when excercising - I often have to dismount while riding or take a break running to let the back stop hurting, and it usually does within a couple minutes.

3. Right now my back is still hurting which is unusual, so I'd like to know if someone like a chiropractor may be able to fix it by the end of the week. I tried acupuncture in a similar situation a few years back - acute bike related injury a week before a ski trip - but it was a waste of money.

4. Also, how much do chiropractors charge,

5. does insurance normally cover it,

6. and can they make the injury worse?

1. I would pass on the skiing. But that's just me.

2. "Exactly" what they do varies from doctor to doctor. I'm not a doctor, but I am concerned about your chronic back pain. Pain is a warning from your body to your brain. Ignore the warnings and you could end up with worse problems. Sort of like continuing to drive your car when you hear the brakes grinding, if you don't mind a dumb analogy.

3. Essentially most chiropractors believe that your body heals itself. That makes a lot of sense to me. I would be wary of one who promises to "fix" you before the weekend. Your condition sounds like it took years to create. It's not all that likely to be resolved in a few days.

4. Varies. I know one rural one who accepts chickens as barter.

5. Depends on your definition of "normally". Some do. Some don't.

6. Yes. One of the best chiropractors I ever went to refused to adjust me when I went to see him. I was in serious pain at the time and was unhappy with his decision. However, I found out over an extended period of time that he really knew his stuff! If you're in Southern California I will get you his name. I can't recommend him highly enough.

HTH

[GOM]

Originally posted by The Gaspode

Yes. Many MD's think they're quacks. And they hate them. The reason is that chiropractors get results, where MD's fail.



Sometimes....

Not to start an argument, but I hope you don't mind a short qualifier. Sometimes chiropracters get results where MDs fail. Sometimes they both fail. Sometimes they work together (not very often though).

Also, I think part of the "hate" is the fact that chiros take money out of the pocket of the MDs. At least that is the way I perceive how the MDs view the chiros. Unfortunately much of "health" care is driven by dollars these days.

.02

Peace.

:)

[CurtC]

The reason that MDs hate chiropractors is that the field of chiropractic is founded on medieval quack-filled ideas of how the body works. Many chiropractors today dismiss these ideas and simply say that their trade is effective for relief of some types of pain. If you go to one who starts talking about subluxations, or how everything from ear infections to cancer is caused by poor alignment in your spine, grab your wallet and head for the door.

Good reading:
Why Chiropractic is Controversial (http://www.chirobase.org/01General/controversy.html)

And from Chiropractic: A Skeptical View (http://www.chirobase.org/01General/skeptic.html):Although a minority of chiropractors offer rational treatment, chiropractic's cultism is so well entrenched that the profession should be viewed as a societal problem, not simply as a competitor of regular health-care.

[happyheathen]

Give it a shot - it worked for me.

[Podkayne]

Some warning signs--if they want to take X-rays, if they mention "subluxations", or if they claim they can cure something other than back pain, such as headaches, digestive upset, cancer (scary, no?) then run and don't look back. If they tell you that the germ theory of disease is false, then that's also a bad sign.

You might be able to get a referal from your MD for a repuatable chiropractor. My dad's been seeing a legit chirpractor for years to alleviate his back pain, and it really helps him. Note, though, that he's been seeing him for years. MDs can't stop his pain either, but chirpractice is not a magic bullet. Here's hoping that you just a minor injury that will respond to treatment and/or physical therapy, not a back problem that you'll never shake!

[Uncommon Sense]

I like the input so far.

One thing that rings true is that a good chiro will be honest with you. If he can`t fix you he will say so.

In my case, I had (have) a herniated disk. The spacing between the disks was manipulated to increase and realign the spacing as to take the pressure off the sciatic nerve. This could not have been done by an MD (imho).

The chiro told me right away that if he can`t reduce the pain in three weeks (three visits per week) then I would need to do somethng else (physical therapy, surgery). Needless to say he helped me and I havn`t been uncomfortable since. The pain isnt totally gone but it is very tollerable.

[zwaldd]

Originally posted by GOM
1. I would pass on the skiing. I paid $1730 for this trip (for two), and I basically work to ski...if I am in pain when I get to the top of the mountain, I will ride the lift back down, otherwise I am skiing ;). Just got back from the doc with big ibuprofens and vicodin. Hopefully for this weekend, that will suffice.

Again, good info here. I have heard the ramblings of a chiropractor that claimed chiropractic is the answer to every possible ill, so if I hear that during a consultation I will thank the guy for his time and exit.

[tcdaniel]

IMHO, don't hesitate to visit a chiropractor for your injury.
I had Cigna insurance who covered all my treatments. I have a chiro appt. today that I don't want to miss. I would expect the dr. to have his credentials posted for anyone interested.
Follow thru with how-ever many treatments he prescribes, then go back periodically for re-alignments.

[x-ray vision]

please check out this site (http://www.chirowatch.com/) before seeing a chiropractor. There are many reasons some people feel better after going to a chiropractor including the placebo effect and the fact that pain often goes away because the body heals itself, whether you went to a chiropractor or not (of course the chiropractor now gets the credit). Just please get informed before you make an appointment. I will go as far as to say that most chiropractors are quacks. And don't let anyone give you upper cervical adjustments! Read about the dangers on the site I gave a link to.

[PosterChild]

Originally posted by zwaldd
I paid $1730 for this trip (for two), and I basically work to ski...if I am in pain when I get to the top of the mountain, I will ride the lift back down, otherwise I am skiing ;). Just got back from the doc with big ibuprofens and vicodin. Hopefully for this weekend, that will suffice. The back is a difficult thing to keep off of (of which to keep off?) and few people give the muscles enough rest to recover before using them again. Be warned that a little pain now (especially if you're on painkillers) means you'll likely be hurting a long time in the future. If you ski often (or plan to) I'd think twice about risking future trips for this one. Painful as it may be to sit it out. Good luck.

PC

P.S.- Anyone know of well controlled and blinded trials of chiropractic?

[BottledBlondJeanie]

As someone who works somewhat in the medical field, I'd like to point out a few things...

1) Chiropractors have not gone to medical school...

2) Chiropractors should not be considered competant in reading x-rays or MRI's

3) A physical therapist can do many of the 'treatments' a chiropractor can do...heat/cold therapy and massage as well as teaching you strengthening/stretching

4) Chiropractic adjustments can cause injuries.

5) Chiropractors cannot prescribe any medications for
you

[Hari Seldon]

"Most chiropracters are quacks." This is from my father-in-law who was one (he lived to 95). The hard problem is that he could give no advice on how to find a good one. So I went without and sufferred with my back. Had PT from a qualified physical therapist, but I could not see it did any good. Then one day, my family doctor very tentatively and with great embarrassment asked if I would consider seeing a chiropracter. I explained about my father-in-law and the doctor then said that he used a chiropracter and gave me his name. So I have been going to him for about 10 years. I still get backaches occasionally, but they are definitely less disabling and of shorter duration. He also gave me exercises, which I do most of the time. They take about a half hour every morning. The one undoubted benefit is that I am much more flexible than I was ten years ago (while being ten years older). Would this be a benefit of the exercises alone? Good question and I don't know the answer and I am afraid to experiment. My insurance covers 80% of it and I am seeing him every six weeks at $35 a shot, so it costs me only $56 a year.

[Doc Nickel]

As someone related to a Chiropractor who has been practicing for thirty-five years:


1) Chiropractors have not gone to medical school...

-Neither have plumbers. Does that mean they went to no school at all and have no training whatsoever?

2) Chiropractors should not be considered competant in reading x-rays or MRI's

-Since few Palmer-educated chiropractors use magnetic imaging, few have reason to train in evaluating that imagery. However, most competent chiropractors do use X-rays, and have thus been trained in their interpretation.

That's a sweeping generalization, no different than saying "all doctors are money-grubbers".

3) A physical therapist can do many of the 'treatments' a chiropractor can do...heat/cold therapy and massage as well as teaching you strengthening/stretching

-Very true. Does this, however, somehow reduce the effectiveness of the doc's actual chiropractic treatments?

4) Chiropractic adjustments can cause injuries.

-As can more accepted medical procedures. To wit the leaving of surgical instruments and towels in a patient's body, the amputating of the wrong leg, or leaving the surgery to go cash a check.

Shall we make some more sweeping generalizations?

5) Chiropractors cannot prescribe any medications for you

-That's kind of the point. Chiropractic adjustments, as noted further above, can relieve pressure on nerves and other conditions, without surgery or drugs. No, chiropractors can't cure everything- neither can podiatrists, gynecologists, optometerists or cardiologists.

You don't go to the cardiologist for a PAP smear, and you don't hit up the optometerist when you have a cavity. So similarly, you don't go to a chiropractor looking for a cure for cancer, to ease your ear infection or to heal an inflamed appendix.

But from my experience, a chiropractor can do wonders for lower back, neck and shoulder pains.

Yes, perhaps I should modify that with "a good chiropractor..." The person to which I'm related, loudly decries the "quack" chiropractors. The established medical industry won't accept chiropractors because so much that falls under that title is quackery, and yet without official recognition from institutions like the AMA and similar controls and regulations on licensing and education, the ranks of chiropractors can't clear out the "quacks". So it's very much a Catch-22.

I would imagine that most of the legit chiropractors feel the same way. Like how an MS-certified "software engineer" feels when some guy reads the Cliffs' Notes of "Computer repair for Dummies" and then hangs out a shingle calling himself a "Certified Software Engineer".

[zwaldd]

So what do they do? So far I've heard 'manipulating the joints'. What does that mean?

[auliya]

As someone who was married to a chiropractor for nearly 20yrs, including his 5yrs at university, I have to say -find a properly qualified and registered one and get some treatment.

Chiropractors (in Australia at least) spend a similar amount of time at university as medical doctors, learn to take, read and interpret X-rays to the same standard, and do many of the same subjects. They are also subject to the same rigorous registration procedures.

So if you have the same standards in the US you are just as safe in the hands of a chiroprctor as you would be with a medical doctor, and I don't doubt would get better results dealing with a back related problem.

BTW, Podkayne, even a medical doctor will tell you that certain visceral problems can originate from nerve damage/interference in the spinal column, they will definitely tell you headaches can!

[Princhester]

One point that is being made over and over again is that some chiropractors are quacks. Several posters have reported that many chiropractors themselves confirm that

It's a familiar line of bullshit. One hears the same thing from believers in tarot readers and astrologers. They too will insist that most are charlatans, but of course not their astrologer, no, he's the real deal. Until he gets something wrong, and then, oh well he mustn't be a real astrologer, but of course there's this other guy I've heard of, now he is truly qualified...

And of course, if you are a chiropractor or astrologer and someone points out that many astrologers and chiropractors have been shown to be quacks, what better way to deflect that criticism from yourself than by loudly and effusively agreeing, while also insisting that there are a select and elusive few who are OK?

Several posters have stated that chiropractors (or some of them) undergo long periods of study. In what? With whom? Certainly they don't achieve standard medical degrees, if they did they'd be doctors.

[Princhester]

Having said that, I thought that one of the linked articles made a very good point:

One thing chiropractors excel at is satisfying their patients. Patients rank them above medical doctors in the concern exhibited about their problems, understanding their concerns, amount of time spent listening to a description of their pain, information provided about the cause of their pain, making them feel welcome, and other factors related to the art of fulfilling human needs [21,22]. Although it is important for physicians to differentiate between mere patient satis, faction and true clinical effectiveness, it seems that they could learnsomething from chiropractors about meeting the emotional needs of suffering patients.

And that is a more important issue than many MD's seem to acknowledge.

[Uncommon Sense]

True,

Is anyone here disputing the benefits of a true chiropractor?
There are those who take their profession seriously and are properly trained at some accredited institution, No?

Too many people have been helped by a chiro when all other so-called standard medical procedures have not worked.
If the reason for your discomfort stems from a misalignment of the spine or shoulder blades, hips, etc. and standard non-surgical med. procedures can`t easily fix these, then a chiro may be able to help. They are not miracle workers, neither are most docs., but some common spine misalignments can be remedied by a visit to the chiro.

Surgery on the back should be a last resort, in all non life threatening cases. No one should go through the hell and rehab of back surgery if there is another way to treat the problem.

[Cervaise]

Originally posted by zwaldd
So what do they do? So far I've heard 'manipulating the joints'. What does that mean? <Eddie Izzard>

"Crack y' bones!"

</ei>

[Princhester]

Whuckfistle, read the linked articles. According to them, there isn't really such a thing as misaligned spine etc (or at least, it is not as widespread as chiros would suggest). Even chiros treating perfectly healthy persons posing as patients diagnose misaligned body parts, and if you go to two different chiros, they will make completely different and often contradictory assessments. Their diagnosis is arrived at by intuition and does not usually match any objective data (such as x-rays).

[BottledBlondJeanie]

Doc Nickle

I disagree heartily with you

especially re your disagreement with this:

2) Chiropractors should not be considered competant in reading x-rays or MRI's

On a legal standard, a chiropractor should defer to a radiologist (a MEDICAL DOCTOR) for reading these radiological studies. As a medical malpractice attorney, I'm aware that most doctors should defer to a radiologist for interpretation of films for anything other than an obvious fracture. So if a medical doctor who is not a radiologist should do do, what in GOD'S GREEN EARTH would make anyone think a chiropractor is qualified to do this?

Regarding the issue of seeing a doctor who can prescribe medication, that's always a good first bet...then your doctor can refer you out as needed and that helps with insurance. Moreover, with respect to the physical therapist issue, the doctor can refer you to one and insurance is more likely to cover a referred-to physical therapist.

Regarding injuries...yes medical doctors can screw up, but your examples deal with surgical procedures...a chiropractor can screw up without any type of surgery and the results are often horrendous (As mentioned, I defend medical malpractice).

I can chew up and spit out chiropractors in a court of law (car wreck cases). Mind you, I've probably seen the worst chiros out there, but still...

I've seen darn little to prove that 'adjustments' are beneficial long term (other than what can be attributed to placebo effect) and have seen damage done because of them.

[C3]

I'm married to a physical therapist. As mentioned by BottledBlondJeanie, your doctor can refer you to a physical therapist and your insurance will probably cover it.

My view on chiropractors (admittedly influenced by my husband and our good friend who's an orthopedic surgeon) is that if they're so good, why do people who see them always say, "I've been seeing him for 10 (20, 30, 40) years and he's great!"
A doctor or a physical therapist will get you fixed and then stop sucking the money out of your wallet. Not the case with chiropractors, apparently.

[GOM]

Originally posted by C3


My view on chiropractors (admittedly influenced by my husband and our good friend who's an orthopedic surgeon) is that if they're so good, why do people who see them always say, "I've been seeing him for 10 (20, 30, 40) years and he's great!"
A doctor or a physical therapist will get you fixed and then stop sucking the money out of your wallet. Not the case with chiropractors, apparently.

Well....

At least you admit you have a bias.

There are good chiros. And there are bad chiros....

There are good orthos. And there are bad orthos....

There are good attorneys. And there are bad attorneys.

As in most things in life, there is a mixture.

Zwaldd,

If your still considering going the chiro way, try asking your friends for personal recommendations. And here's one other thing you might try. Ask some chiros who [b]they[/]b go to when they need an adjustment!

HTH

[GOM]

Originally posted by zwaldd
I paid $1730 for this trip (for two).

hmmm

FWIW, I would gladly pay 100 times that amount if someone could give me a good back!

Often we do not realize the value of good health, until we lose it.

Take care. We are designed to heal from many things, but you do need to give your body enough time to heal. Covering up the pain with drugs does not correct the problem, they only temporarily mask the problem.

[Cerowyn]

This article (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiroeval.html) cites some studies done with regard to chiropractors, and gives some advice for seeking one. The article is on Quackwatch, a website run by an MD who tries to provide science and study based arguments against medical "quackery" (note that the site does not advise against using chiropractors, just gives lots of warnings about the dangers involved with some forms of chiropractic treatment).

[Geoduck]

Originally posted by zwaldd
So what do they do? So far I've heard 'manipulating the joints'. What does that mean?

Chiropractors apply various levels of force and pressure on your joints (in the spine and, in most states, extremities) to help achieve a better balance. That is the theory anyway. Out there in the chiropractic world there is a huge continuum of degrees of force used to achieve healing. Some chiros love to whip you around and make your bones sound crunchy (lots of patients find the sounds quite satisfying); others barely touch you or use some ingenious and/or occult devices to manipulate your bones.

Many chiros are into nutrition and will "prescribe" supplements and herbs. Some may have value; some may not.

I am not a chiropractor but have several friends and former clients who are. I have also been to a few for treatment of chronic back strain. Some are good; others mediocre--like any other health care professional.

I suggest you do what I did many years ago and see an Osteopathic physician. DOs are trained to the same standards as medical doctors and are legally considered to have the same diagnosis and treatment responsibilities. Some DOs specialize in physical medicine (30 years ago most DOs did, but not anymore) and also practice manipulation. They also prescribe drugs, and insurance covers everything to the same extent as an MD.

I prefer osteopathic manipulation because the focus is upon manipulating the muscles that hold the joints in place. My DO has done what the chiros couldn't--basically relieve my severe back strain for a few days so I can function and rest. He also prescribed effective exercises--and prescribed painkiller drugs that don't knock me out. I go through this about once very 3 years.

A final option is to find a good physiatrist--which is an MD that specializes in rehabilitation medicine. Many of these folks also do manipulation, though they tend to call it something else to avoid the affinity with chiropractic. Ask you family doc for a referral.

Any kind of "cure" is gonna take you weeks of exercise and rest and ongoing maintenance. Good luck.

[auliya]

Several posters have stated that chiropractors (or some of them) undergo long periods of study. In what? With whom? Certainly they don't achieve standard medical degrees, if they did they'd be doctors.
Princhester , a simple google search would have answered you question, or didn't you want to read the facts, but rather post a lot of negative unsubstantiated rubbish intended to denigrate something you obviously kow little about.

RMIT in Melbourne, Macquarie University in Syndney and Murdoch university in Perth and not exactly mickey mouse colleges.
http://www.chiropractors.asn.au/aboutchiro/training/training.html]link

[auliya]

woops this link (http://www.chiropractors.asn.au/aboutchiro/training/training.html) might work better .
sorry

[Doc Nickel]

Sorry for the nonattendance of a previous post, but the real world hath bekoned. Time is short, so I'm just gonna cover the one:

My view on chiropractors (admittedly influenced by my husband and our good friend who's an orthopedic surgeon) is that if they're so good, why do people who see them always say, "I've been seeing him for 10 (20, 30, 40) years and he's great!"

-To which in reply, I ask, do you only get one mammogram in your lifetime? You're only supposed to visit the dentist once, and even then, only when a cavity forms? Visit the optometrist only when squinting no linger works? Don't bother to have your cholesterol checked? To paraphrase George Carlin, you shouldn't worry about having any X-rays done 'til the lump is visible through clothing from across the street?

The relation of which I spoke earlier, deals with many people who work in industrial plants. Welders, pipefitters, linehandlers, even just the electricians and instrument techs. These people often cause themselves minor- or sometimes not so minor- strains that a good chiropractor can put right. He sees similar low-grade though repetitive injuries in joggers, skiers and people who ride snowmachines.

Even office workers- given poor posture or a crappy chair, eight hours in front of a PC can cause, or aggravate, lower back pains. Work requires you there, and in front of that PC; sure, smart people might get a better chair, but then, smart people also smoke and eat greasy foods, too.

Others might have suffered an injury, say a misalignment of the vertabrae, such as my dad suffered when he was 12 as a farmboy, which never got corrected (by any means, medical or chiropractic) and thus frequently needs it "adjusted" simply so he can function. The all-knowing medical doctors fused two of the vertabrae, which cost him a fair bit of mobility- and a fair lump of cash- and which didn't affect, reduce or alleviate the pain one iota.

For a board rallying against ignorance, there sure seem to be eager to lump all chiropractors in with the astrologer/herbalist types with a bubblejet diploma. "I've never heard of a chiropractic school, so they must not exist."

And geez, since astrologers decry other astrologers in an attempt to look 'real' that means when one chiropractor decries another, they obviously, by that stunning analogy, must also be fakes. So what about when "real" cosmetic surgeons denigrate the fly-by-night Beverly Hills strip-mall plastic surgeons?

Good night.

[Charlie Tan]

I get the impression that rules are diferent in the US from here. In Sweden a Doctor og Chiropractic is a licensed professional, partly funded by the public health care system. To get the license requieres five years of university studies, including interpretation of x-rays, farmakology (sp?). They are covered for liability, the same way a Medical Doctor is, ASF.
The new age/herbal crap doesn't even exist here. My handy Swedish/English dictionary says the word I'm looking for is wryneck. I get it frequently. My own fault. Stress at work, squeezing the phone between the shoulder and the ear while working on the computer. Once or twice a year, it locks up, and I end up looking like a person working in a library.
First itme this happened I went to an ordinary doc, who prescribed painkillers and said it would heal eventually.
Next time I went to a chiropractor. The guy felt my neck, massaged around it to warm up/soften muscles - then grabbed my head and twitched. Snap & Crackle and I could move again, without pain.
I know what physiotherapists and MD's say.
And those refuting this will say that by not getting proper treatment, I'm condemning myself to a lifelong exposure to chiro-quacks that will eventuually make things worse and finally break my neck. Yada-yada-yada.
It works. There is no "quacking" going on. These are guys who spent a lot of time studying how to move joints, discs and bones to cure you. It works for me.
YMMV

[CurtC]

The Gaspode wrote:
The guy felt my neck, massaged around it to warm up/soften muscles - then grabbed my head and twitched.This sent shivers down my spine. A few years ago, I hurt my neck skydiving. After six weeks of discomfort, I finally decided to go to a doctor, who discovered that my C2 vertebra (the Christopher Reeve one) was broken in half. I hate to think what would have happened had I visited a chiro instead.

[Charlie Tan]

The chiro would have discovered it and not twitched your neck. At least if you went to mine.

[gazpacho]

Originally posted by The Gaspode
The chiro would have discovered it and not twitched your neck. At least if you went to mine. How do you know?

[drachillix]

Originally posted by whuckfistle
One thing that rings true is that a good chiro will be honest with you. If he can`t fix you he will say so.

I had a grandfather who was a chiropractor. Unfortunately he was also one of the horror story snake oil salesman types (cure cancer, deafness, psych disorders, all with a pop of the back!)

He generally made me want to cry with the sheer off the scale BS he used to shovel. The sad thing was he did it for 35 years and was a very wealthy man.

[CurtC]

I'm not so sure that the chiro would have discovered my fractured neck. The MD I went to discovered it only because he decided, after the initial images, to take one more of me with my head bent down. In that image, my C2 opened up at the fracture, but it wasn't that apparent in the images with my head upright.

[Charlie Tan]

Gaspacho and CurtC.

Since they are licensed by our version of the Surgeon General, they are considered qualified to make these judgements. They are doctors. Meaning we, as patients, can have the same demands on them, as we would with any MD.
Now granted, a mistake in a case like this could be made. But that could be done by a GP, as well as an Orthopedic Surgeon. As CurtC says: it was almost by accident that it was found out. A chiropractor, when hearing it happened at a skydiving accident, would send the patient for x-rays.


Sorry - but you guys don't seem to hear me. From reading this thread, I gather that just about anyone can hang up a sign, saying "Chiropractor", in the US. It used to be this way here, till about 15 years ago. Now they are licensed professionals. What's so hard to understand about that.

I'm only relating my experiences with good, licensed, qualified people. If the rules there make the profession more... curcumspect, well, I'm sorry. But I still have a hard time believing that a country the size of the US will not have a single, educated and qualified chiropractor, with whom you would - literally - trust your neck.

[NotBob13]

I'd recomend you ask your regular Physician. I usually see a Physician's Assistant when I go to my Doctor, as my complaints are not so sever, and Mark (the PA) has proven to have a wonderful bedside maner. I make appointments to see him specifically, not the regular Doctor.
I twisted my back up, and pulled a muscle in my back a few years ago. I told mark about it. Mark has had some sort of Chiropractic type training, and he aligned my back for me, it worked wonderfully. He also gave me some exercises to strengthen my back.
Recently I have come to the conclusion that I may have a herniated disk, and will see Mark as soon as I can afford it.
So talk to your doctor about Chiropratic matters, he may be able to do what a Chiropractor does, and he's surely covered by your insurance.
Chiropractics is a legitimate science, but is overrun with those who don't understand it, really. And I don't see much hope for cleaning up the industry, as long as it is as unregulated as it is now.

[stpauler]

Well, in the last 8 years or so I've seen 3 chiropractors. I've got a nerve in my lower back that gets pinched if I'm not working out or just generally not stretching. The first one "cracked" my back and I felt better after that. I resumed working out and stretching after that and didn't have a problem for a couple years. A hard winter in MN and sitting inside and not doing much and the pinched nerved came back. My friend recommended going to his chiro with him and it was a really bad experience. After the $85 charge (he was "nice" and waived the start-up cost because I was referred by my friend) and adjusted me in a room with 5 other people all on cots. He adjusted one person and then went to the next without washing hands or cleaning or anything. His adjustments were unlike the first and last chiros I went to and he didn't do anything for me.
The 3rd I went to was a week after the 2nd. He was the first I was recommended to by my health insurance co. He was good and I got Rx for 8 visits. I was adjusted and also taught how to properly stretch so it wouldn't recur. So far, I've been good for about 3 years.

And of course YMMV

[Epimetheus]

Originally posted by The Gaspode
Sorry - but you guys don't seem to hear me. From reading this thread, I gather that just about anyone can hang up a sign, saying "Chiropractor", in the US. It used to be this way here, till about 15 years ago. Now they are licensed professionals. What's so hard to understand about that.



Don't think people don't hear you. If I am ever in Sweden and have back problems I will keep that in mind. However, since I doubt that will ever happen, and I bet most of the people in this thread don't live in Sweden as well- they like to talk about what it is like in the country they actually live in. The fact that Chiropractors in Sweden are professional doctors doesn't change how they are in the US. Sweden Chiropractors aren't Ubiquous through out the world ya know.

[Charlie Tan]

Epimetheus


Yes, I'm aware of that. But did you read to the end, where I said that I'm sure it's possible to find a realchiro in the US. If it's unregulated and full of quacks, I'm sure the guys with a proper education have som sort of association. Also, the insurance company should have a list of DC they reccomend, since they don't want to cough up for additional injuries from a quack.

I got slammed for saying that my chiro is a pro (and a very nice lady too) from people saying that I don't know what I'm talking about - something which I had to reply to. I started out saying that chiros can do wonders for the back and I stand firmly by that.

No neeed to be condescending. I do know that the majority of the Dopers are American.

[auliya]

The Gaspode
I understand exactly what you are saying.

In Australia it is the same, 5yrs at university (see my earlier link), covered by health insurance, rigorous registration requirements, which if not met, no licence.

Chiropractors here are respected professionals as well, although with same spectrum of good and not so good ones as medical doctors, surgeons, etc etc.

However untrained snake oil salesmen like drachillix's grandfather are unable to call themselves chiropractors in this country.

[Geoduck]

Chiropractors are licensed by all 50 states and are required to have a minimum of 4 years professional education, plus they have to pass a series of professional board exams. Each state defines their scope of practice differently. In US health care licensing, there often is a distinction made between doctors and physicians--the latter can diagnose and treat and prescribe to a far greater degree, depending on their speciality. Chiros are allowed to call themselves doctors, but are not viewed as primary health care physicians in most states-even if they call themselves "Chiropractic Physicians".

Usually Chiros in the US can diagnose back and extremity problems using an exam and x-rays and maybe order some lab tests. They are allowed to treat by manipulation and some limited physical therapy and maybe nutrition. In Oregon they can even deliver babies, but I think that is rare. . .

The federal and state governments usually reimburse chiros for most of their services--especially for rehabilitation from accidents.

Licensing guarantees a minimum educational/testing criteria but that is pretty limited protection in the real world. There are lots of consumer issues with chiros because their business practices have been shady historically. In my state, Washington, they publish all licensed health care professional disciplinary issues on the web, and chiros seem to pop us fairly frequently.

Most other countries that regulate chiropractic are far less diverse than the US (legally and culturally) and have a smaller population of practitioners to keep track of. That may contribute to a perception of better quality of chiropractors.

That being said, there are far more good, decent and professional chiros in the US than not.

[GOM]

Originally posted by Doc Nickel


For a board rallying against ignorance, there sure seem to be eager to lump all chiropractors in with the astrologer/herbalist types with a bubblejet diploma. "I've never heard of a chiropractic school, so they must not exist."



Yes. That seemed odd to me too....

Zwaldd,

I hope you have a good weekend. Let us know how it worked out.

[BottledBlondJeanie]

Geoduck you're wrong on the requirement to have a degree prior to chiro. school. Some states do require it, other don't. (I'll get you the site). The problem though is a lot of these chirporactic schools will give the person a B.S. along with the chiropractic training, but it is more BS than B.S.

Also, here is a summary of the JAMA's research that about 44% of chiropractors have degrees before chiro school. Also, look at the GPA's...

DAMN SCARY!




YIKES (http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/adm.html)

[auliya]

BottledBlondJeanie It seems that the US has been sadly remiss in regulating the education of Chiropractors, but I guess that is the price you pay for minimal government intervention in education.

Here are the entry requirement for the Bachelor of Chiropractic Science (http://www.uac.edu.au/wap/uac3.cgi?method=any&keywords=bachelor+chirpractic+science&course_code=&uais=&university=Macquarie+University&mode=F&hecs=H&submit=Search) offered at Macquarie University in Sydney, I don't know how to transpose into an American GPA but the entry requirements are similar to psychology and certainly higher than podiatry (http://www.uac.edu.au/wap/uac3.cgi?method=any&keywords=podiatry&course_code=&uais=&university=&mode=F&hecs=H&submit=Search)

In Australia most chiropractors choose that career path from high school, so the relevance of already having a bachelors degree is not applicable. It is no different to going to university to become a doctor, a dentist, a physiotherapist, a psychologist or any other health care professional.

[Geoduck]

BottledBlondJeanie I think you misunderstood my words regarding chiropractic education--"professional" education means post-undergraduate specialized education. Most chiros I know have a 4yr undergraduate degree plus a 4 year professional degree. Sure some chiro schools probably allow folks in with less than an undergraduate degree and that may or may not be OK--it depends on the other qualifications. But all states mandate that level of professional education, and there is an assumption that most folks do have an undergraduate education. In fact in Washington as least, chiros and other health professionals have to pass a difficult basic sciences exam that would be tough for an uneducated person to pass.

Please note that I cannot attest to the actual quality of chiropractic education--and the fact that GPAs of chiro students are low probably does correlate with something less than wonderful.

aulaya, I think American and Australian chiro education is probably about the same. Is the Bachelor of Chiropractic Science the terminal professional degree for chiros? Then it would be equivalent to the Doctor of Chiropractic degree that is standard here.

Comparison with podiatrists is pretty iffy in the US at least. In most states podiatrists have a broader scope of practice than chiropractors--they can perform surgery and prescribe certain drugs.

[Vinnie Virginslayer]

zwalld if there is any way you can make that skiing trip, I'd consider it. Twice my back went out on me, and days later I was still sore and went skiing; by the end of the day all my back pain was gone. Great exercise, however I would couch that with that being MY personal experience.

Keep in mind that chiropractors go to years of school to get their training, so it's not neccessarily quackery. They cannot legally prescribe meds, but that might be a good thing.

My back went out on me last week, and I couldn't walk on my left leg. I went to my doctor, who said he was going to send me to for x-rays but I just had a muscle spasm, and I would be okay. He prescribed me some meds, and referred me to physical therapy (not a chiro).

The xrays were "negative". Then, a week later, after a long car ride, I woke the next day totally unable to stand and my left foot was numb. Fortunately I had an appointment with the rehab woman who told me I had every symptom of a herniated disc, and that x-rays DO NOT SHOW THAT!

So my physical therapist, who is not a doctor, knew more about my problem than the doctor did!

My mother said when she had me 30+ years ago she couldnt walk for a week because her back went out on her, and literally had to crawl on her hands and knees for a week, but a chiro saved her.

The knock I've heard on chiropractors is that they try to "stretch" therapy out, making you think you need more sessions when you may be okay. Just keep this in mind once your back feels better and judge for yourself whether or not you need more treatment; perhaps at that point following a good, sound exercise regimen would be the right way to go.

[Epimetheus]

Originally posted by The Gaspode
Epimetheus

No neeed to be condescending. I do know that the majority of the Dopers are American.

Ah, my appologies if I sounded condenscending- I didn't mean it to be that way. I was just explaining the reasons people could not be adressing your points. No harm intended, but sorry if it was caused.

[GOM]

So....

How was your weekend Zwaldd?

[elf6c]

Some information for the Perfect Master himself.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_418.html

Enjoy.

[elf6c]

From, not for. D'oh.

:(

[zwaldd]

Just got back from Crested Butte. What a great trip! I kept a steady dose of Motrin and Vicodin and the back held up, even in the steep 'n deep. It snowed Friday and Saturday, and yesterday was sunny...which added up to great powder and perfect weather.

I still want to get my back checked out since I strained it doing a pretty routine moutain biking move and I don't want to go through this again, at least not any time soon. I'm going to ask my PCP to refer me to a sports injury specialist, so we'll see what he comes up with.

[Jackmannii]

Originally posted by whuckfistle
In my case, I had (have) a herniated disk. The spacing between the disks was manipulated to increase and realign the spacing as to take the pressure off the sciatic nerve. This could not have been done by an MD (imho).

The chiro told me right away that if he can`t reduce the pain in three weeks (three visits per week) then I would need to do somethng else (physical therapy, surgery). Needless to say he helped me and I havn`t been uncomfortable since. The pain isnt totally gone but it is very tollerable.
This is a good example of how chiropractors get a reputation for being able to "fix" back pain.

Disc problems are notorious for featuring symptoms that come and go. So various treatments can be employed, the pain goes away (at least for awhile) and the patient is impressed (by the way, I've had lumbar disc problems on and off for years, so I know how it goes). Chiropractic treatment is not capable of realigning degenerated disks to reduce pain. Chiros or osteopathic physicians who practice manipulation with care and with an adequate exam by a physician first to rule out problems which could be worsened by vigorous manipulation may be able to reduce pain symptoms as well as (or in some cases, better than) standard exercise and pain meds, but it's a crapshoot best undertaken by people for whom the standard therapies fail.

I speak as an M.D. who does not practice in a field where there's any competition with chiros, but who has negative feelings about chiropractic for the same reason that nearly all MDs do - viewing it as a largely quack operation that gets people on the hook for years of useless treatment at considerable expense.

[Uncommon Sense]

To add;

I now "treat" myself. When I get the pain radiating down my leg from the disk problem, I hang from the rafters in the garage for a couple of minutes. I climb a ladder then grab the rafters with my hands and then let my feet swing off the ladder. Then I will slowly rock my hips back and forth and let all the muscles in the back relax. I can feel the lower back seperate a little when I do this. The pain is gone instantly and I`m good to go for a few days or a week.
This is almost identical to what the chiro did as a treatment. Except in his office I`m laying on a table and not hanging.

I feel I have better control when I do it myself.

To me, he knew what he was doing because it works when I duplicate it at home.

I should add that when I first went to him I could not get out of bed without EXCRUTIATING pain. Now I manage the pain myself and won`t let it get out of control again.