mighty white

[metroshane]

I'm sorta defecient on what has been broached before, so please don't flame me if it's been discussed before (man, i hate saying that).

But, I've heard the phrase "mighty white of you!" serveral times.

It's said without a trace of reservation, so could it possibly mean what it sounds like?

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The only way to rid yourself of temptation is to yield to it--Oscar Wilde

[ChrisCTP]

"...without a trace of reservation..."

So to speak.

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"Excrement. That is what I think of J. Evans Pritchard, PhD." --Robin Williams, Dead Poets Society

Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss (http://www2.crosswinds.net/~domesticbliss/)

[AWB]

I had a roommate that said that. He also said (when he thought you did something wrong), "Oh, you silly silly Negro."

Since they came from the same mouth, I'd venture that the topic phrase is racist.

[AWB]

I had a roommate that said that. He also said (when he thought you did something wrong), "Oh, you silly silly Negro."

Since they came from the same mouth, I'd venture that the topic phrase is racist.

[metroshane]

Yeah, sounds racist to me, but the variety of different mouths i've heard it come from, either they didn't realize what they were saying,or it doesn't mean what i think.

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The only way to rid yourself of temptation is to yield to it--Oscar Wilde

[RynKat]

Hey, AWB? That roommate wasn't a 6'5" brunette, was he? Where did you room with him? Guy I used to know always said both of those things...bugged me to death.

[Flypsyde]

The first time I heard this, it came from one of the Dirty Harry movies.

Eastwood gets out of his car in a bad neighborhood. There's a gang of black youths standing around, and they offer to watch the car for him. It's obvious they're screwing with him. To show them he's a real badass, he responds with, "Well, that's mighty white of ya."

So, yeah, I'd have to say that it's definitely a racist remark; probably meant to show that white people are real dependable, stand-up folks, while black people can't be trusted and are basically lazy, undependable bums.

I hope to shout that I am not construed as a racist in the above post.

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And the problem with small furry animals
in corners is that, just occasionally,
one of them's a mongoose.
Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad

[Satan]

It's racist connotations should be obvious...

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Yer pal,
Satan

[TVeblen]

I have no idea of the origins of the phrase. When I was a little kid, watching reruns of bad westerns, I assumed it referred to the old "white hat"=good guy and "black hat"=bad guy thing. Hey, it was the major frame of reference I had.

But no matter the origins (of the saying or the white/black hat symbolism) I agree that it appears strongly racist.

Veb

[Johnny Angel]

It is certainly not obvious that the term is racist in origin, though it definitely cannot be used without being seen as racist today.

According to Jesse's Word of the Day (http://www.randomhouse.com/jesse/?date=19960911), the origin of the term is racist because this sense of the word white arose in the nineteenth century, but he does not establish that it arose as a result of that period's racist attitudes, merely that it was concurrent. There is an alternative explanation, for which he himself gives evidence, that the sense of white meaning righteous evolved from a much earlier use of the same word to meaning morally pure; innocent -- which usage dates back to the tenth century, seven centuries before white became a racial term.

[torq]

I think almost every time I've heard it used it's been in a sarcastic or deprecating way. I may have heard it used otherwise in movies where they're trying to depict some racist bigot, but in my experience it seems to be more or less equivalent to "well, that's the LEAST you could possibly do."

[Sealemon88]

It's always had racist connotations to me.

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You say "cheesy" like that's a BAD thing.

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

Wow, it has an older meaning that has nothing to do with race!

And all these years I've been saying it like the Kingfish, for added effect.

[Johnny Angel]

There was never a time, in our lives, when this term would have been seen as not having racial implications. But there is no reason to assume that it was originally a racial term.

Wow! I am stunned that, with the exception of torq, everyone here assumes that this is a phrase which would imply racism on the part of the user. When I and my counter-culture friends of the late 60s/early 70s used this phrase, it was exclusively employed to mean the exact opposite of racism on the part of the user. If I said "That's mighty White of you", the implication was that you were a condescending, hypocritical bastard, just like the "Man" (read: white bigot) who would generously employ a "token Black", all the while prepared to lynch them if they looked at their daughters. In other words, you were "White", in the worst, bigoted, racist sense of the term, rather than a free-thinking, we-are-all-brothers, revolutionary, like me.

I hope that explanation made sense. If not, I may have to have another go at it once I get some more caffeine in the system. In any event, I'm curious as to whether those who viewed this phrase as racist are too young to remember when Paul McCartney was in another band before "Wings".

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Reality is for people who can't handle drugs.

-Tom Waits

[Coldfire]

Duh, don't be ridiculous. We all know McCartney founded The Who.


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Coldfire
________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

Ahem. Yes...well, I guess that answers my question. Time to go to work. Where did I put those paisley bell-bottoms? Damn, I'm old!

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Reality is for people who can't handle drugs.

-Tom Waits

My former husband used to tell me I was okay,"for a white girl". So one day,we're in a bar,some black folks are at the table;he knew them,I didn't. He said something like,you're alright. And I said,for a white girl. He started shaking his head back and forth fast,squinching his eyes. I'm like,what??You say it!

[Ukulele Ike]

Paul McCartney was in a band called Wings?

Sir Paul McCartney, the classical composer?

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Uke

[Sealemon88]

Ukelele Ike: I understand your confusion. It was hard to catch Paul whe he was with Wings, since they were always on the run. < rimshot >

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You say "cheesy" like that's a BAD thing.

[AWB]

RynKat: Hey, AWB? That roommate wasn't a 6'5" brunette, was he? Where did you room with him? Guy I used to know always said both of those things...bugged me to death.

Nope, 5'8" blonde in Colorado about 14 years ago.

[keystream]

I gotta go with WeimarDog on this one. I always thought it was rascist, but anti-white, not pro-white. Especially these days, when the politically correct consensus seems to be white = bad (at least on my campus). And I'm only 18. Not much of a Beatles fan though. Now Wings on the other hand. . .!!!

[MarkSerlin]

I have a pretty good idea that it has racist implications but I'm in my 40's and have heard that phrase ever since I was a little boy. In the last 2 decades or so, its useage has dropped considerably since everyone became politically correct and Black people switched from being Coloreds, to Negros, to Blacks and finially settled on African Americans -- for now. I think it stood for a condescending attitude, which was what 'Whitefolks' used to display to 'Blackfolks' pre-civil rights. (Back then, a White Man would call a Black Man 'Boy' no matter what the Black Man's age was, especially in the southern US, above Florida.) Yes, I recall the seperate water fountains and wash rooms and was glad to see that nasty bit of crap end.

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Mark
"Think of it as Evolution in action."

[Coldfire]

OK, I've had some time to look it up now. Good to finally be able to get rid of the confusion.

Paul McCartney was better known as the Liverpool Hijacker.


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Coldfire
________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[manhattan]

That's as opposed to Coldfire, the Amsterdam Thread Hijacker ;)

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Livin' on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[kunilou]

I can remember my father using the term back in the 1950s. He always used it in a very condescending way. however, since the victim of the remark never felt he was being condescended to, I have to believe the remark was not originally sarcastic.

I'm pretty sure it had racial, or at least culturally insensitive, origins.

[tomndebb]

Johhny Angel:There was never a time, in our lives, when this term would have been seen as not having racial implications. But there is no reason to assume that it was originally a racial term.

No reason to assume it at all--simply go read some nineteenth century literature (start with Huckleberry Finn) and see for yourselves.

I'm not trying to single out Johnny, here; his post made the easiest tie in.

The phrase always meant that the person referred to was displaying the higher qualities associated with the superior race. It is not at all very far removed from Kipling's poetic address to T. Roosevelt, White Man's Burden. There was nothing intended as meanness in its original use. It was simply assumed that people displaying the higher and nobler aspects of humanity were displaying the traits associated with being white.

Now, that is, of course, a horrible viewpoint. In the '60s the phrase, while it still was being used in its older sense in certain parts of society, was adopted by a few smart alecks on the far left of the political spectrum as a sarcastic comment. Not exactly in the manner described by WeimarDog, but as an ironic comment that the person spoken to probably considered such a racist epithet a compliment. It is easy to see the slight shift that provided WeimarDog's meaning.

While I may have missed some posts, every time I have seen it used around here, the poster was a sarcastic, left-leaning individual. It has lost some of its sting in the last 30 years, so it may be a fairly mild rebuke these days. (I doubt that I would use it to thank Louie Farrakhan for holding a door for me, however.)

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Tom~

[putrid]

Blimey, it's sad to see so many here on the enlightened SDMB simply assume the phrase was racist. :( On the other hand, it's nice to see so many of you here open to having your eyes opened. :) This topic was discussed in another (unenlightened) forum :( where the consensus was that the phrase's origin didn't matter didley, as it simply must be racist, and furthermore nothing which could be taken as racist should ever be uttered, no matter its true origin.

I personally buy the version that it uses white in the sense of white=good and black=bad. That of course is a whole 'nother problem, though I don't see anyone rushing to quash the use of black humor, black temper, and other potentially (and understandably) offensive phrases.

The main argument (elsewhere) against use of this phrase is the same one brought up above, that you know of cases (or only of cases) where it's used by ignorant racists. Whether or not the phrase is a nice one we should use, I do object to the idea that ignorant racists misusing our language should be allowed to determine what's acceptable and what ain't. :( (No, this is not directly related to anything said above. I have no beef with any of you. :) My beef is with the other forum's posters but they're all poopyheads and I won't post there anymore.)

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

Putrid said:
. . . nothing which could be taken as racist should ever be uttered, no matter its true origin

That can lead to a very niggardly use of some good expressions. :)

[Johnny Angel]

The phrase always meant that the person referred to was displaying the higher qualities associated with the superior race.

I've already stated the evidence that this is not the case. All you're doing is restating the opposite opinion without supporting evidence. White was used as a positive term long, long before there was any racial connotation to it -- about 700 years. You cannot positively tie it to the sorts of racial notions held by the likes of Kipling in the 19th century, because it pre-existed them.

[putrid]

Ok, then completely ignore that section of my post, and treat it as if the only thing I mentioned was my main point. I will not miss never using this particular phrase again, as I have only used it a couple of times in my life anyway. And apparently I was using it wrong. I have been enlightened, which is what I visit the SDMB for. :) :) :)

[OpalCat]

Wow! I am stunned that, with the exception of torq, everyone here assumes that this is a phrase which would imply racism on the part of the user. When I and my counter-culture friends of the late 60s/early 70s used this phrase, it was exclusively employed to mean the exact opposite of racism on the part of the user. If I said "That's mighty White of you", the implication was that you were a condescending, hypocritical bastard, just like the "Man" (read: white bigot) who would generously employ a "token Black", all the while prepared to lynch them if they looked at their daughters. In other words, you were "White", in the worst, bigoted, racist sense of the term, rather than a free-thinking, we-are-all-brothers, revolutionary, like me.

This was my reaction as well. I've never heard the term used in any other way. I use it myself in a way similar to this. Like say, if I hear that someone went out of their way to hire a black person, and was all proud like that made them some kind of hero, I'd say "well that was mighty white of you"... or if someone did something that in any way made them seem like racists or white trash, I'd use it. I never knew anyone who thought it was a compliment!

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--
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com (http://www.opalcat.com)

Thank you Tom and Opalcat. I was starting to doubt my sanity, although my wife claims that there is no doubt that I am insane. For a cultural reference to the use of the term "White" in this context, you might give a listen to Gil Scott-Heron's "No Knock", from the albumn "The Revolution will not be Televised", if you can find it. IIRC, the refrain is "Lyin, Cheat'n, Stealin, Killin'...and bein White". I'd have to dig out the actual vinyl to verify, but that's pretty close.

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Reality is for people who can't handle drugs.

-Tom Waits

Uh, that would be "album", of course. Should have been paying better attention to the spelling lessons in Junior High, instead of trying to figure out how to get laid!

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Reality is for people who can't handle drugs.

-Tom Waits

[Johnny Angel]

I'm not saying it's a racist term, I'm only saying that you can hardly expect to use it without it being read as racist, whether or not it's actually racist, which I suspect it isn't.

I don't like the idea of shunning terms which have taken on spurious negative associations, just because somebody has the wrong idea where the word came from. But you should at least be aware that if you say `mighty white' it's liable to be taken as a racist remark.

Now, I myself have continue to use rule of thumb even though it's got a false etymology associated with it that will sometimes anger feminists -- because I've got the documentation available that show this etymology is false.

You have to pick your fights.

[OpalCat]

I think it is pretty obvious from the times when I say it and my tone/facial expressions that I am using it as a derogatory. Basically if I say it's "mighty white" of someone to do/say something, I'm pretty much saying THEY are racist.

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--
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com (http://www.opalcat.com)

[tomndebb]

Johnny Angel:I've already stated the evidence that this is not the case.
No. You cited a web page that discussed various meanings. However, your citation does not indicate what you would like it to. The word "white" has been used to indicate virtue or honor for a very long time, but in every instance prior to the nineteenth century U.S. (as attested by the OED) the reference is to an attribute or possession: "white honor," a "soul that is white."

It only began to be applied to the "moral superiority" of men in the nineteenth century U.S., and only in contexts where the obvious comparison would have been between whites and non-white people.

The OP was not about the use of "white" meaning "good"; the OP asked about the phrase "mighty white of you."

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Tom~