Take this, you sinner bashing bastards!

[Triskadecamus]

A group of travelers were in a bus, heading for a shrine, to pray. The driver of the bus was drunk. He drove off a cliff, and everyone on the bus died. As it happened, they were all still together, as they passed into the beyond, and they came to a long road, by a river, which they walked down, together.

After a time, they came to a gate, on the side of the road, which was made of pearl. On the gate was a sign. The sign said:

"No Faggots."

One of the travelers saw the sign, and began to weep. Another saw it, and smiled, he pushed on the gate, and it opened. He went in. The other travelers stood there, looking at the weeping man. One of them said:

"Look, down the road, there is another gate."

The travelers gathered their weeping companion in their arms, and went to the second gate. There too was a sign. It said:

"No Jews."

One of the travelers sighed deeply, and looked at his companions. Another looked about, and went through the gate. The others stood with their companions, and looked down the road. Sure enough, there was another gate.

It too had a sign:

"No Atheists."

And again, one of the travelers began weeping.

So it went for a very long time, for the road seemed to go on and on. There were many gates, and on each one, a sign.

"No drunks" "No adulterers" "No thieves" "No Catholics" "No Mormons"

But after a time, only a few travelers remained, with their disappointed brethren. As they consoled each other, they came upon yet another gate. There was a man sitting across the road from the gate, fishing. They looked upon the gate. None of them could read what the sign said.

"Sir," said one of the travelers, "do you know what the sign says?"

"Yes." He said.

"And can you tell us?" they asked.

"I can tell you only if you enter."

"Who may enter this gate?" asked the traveler who wept at the first gate.

"Anyone." The man replied.

So the travelers stepped up, and pushed upon the gate, and entered together, and the man followed them.

"Where does the gate lead?" they asked him, "for we have entered."

"Heaven." He said.

"But, the other gates all had on them signs saying who could not enter. Where did they lead?"

"Nowhere." He replied.

"What shall become of our brethren who chose the other gates?" asked one of the travelers.

The man said "The shall remain lost, until they choose to be found. It is their hearts that have led them astray. Why did you not enter the first gate?" he asked one of the travelers. "You were not forbidden entry."

The pilgrim answered, "One of my friends was weeping, for he was forbidden. I could not leave him."

"And at each gate, you chose to suffer with your brethren, although you were not named. And when you walked the long road, never once did you falter, when your brothers were sent away, but took up the burden of their broken hearts. The sign on this gate says: None, but the righteous. But only I can read it."

[sir viks]

Wasn't that an episode on The Twilight Zone?

[stpauler]

Umm, just out of curiousity, what was the atheist going to the shrine to pray for?

[Legomancer]

Originally posted by stpauler
Umm, just out of curiousity, what was the atheist going to the shrine to pray for?

He was going to perform a double-blind experiment to test the validity of the claims for the shrine's healing powers.

[Velma]

This is a great post, why is it in the pit? (other than the title). I had to laugh when I read the post and then looked at the title again. It's like, love everyone, you bastards!

(I understand the sentiment, it just struck me as funny).

[Fatwater Fewl]

Triskadecamus, that's a very fine parable of love.

[Amp]

I saw a TV episode like this. Some hick died with his dog. As they were walking down a country road they come across a s gate and a sign that says "No Dogs". The gate keeper tries to convince the hick to enter but he will not enter without his dog and keeps on moving. He then comes upon a second gate where the gate keeper allows him and his dog to enter and it turns out that the first gate was hell and the second gate is heaven.

[SkipMagic]

Originally posted by stpauler
Umm, just out of curiousity, what was the atheist going to the shrine to pray for?

Ten bucks says he was the bus driver. :D

[Kn*ckers]

Yeah, Amp, but this version was way more poetical. It helps that there are no dogs or hicks in this one.

I gotta tell ya, I was really expecting more rage when I opened this thread. I feel a little let down... and relieved at the same time.

[Legomancer]

Originally posted by Amp
I saw a TV episode like this. Some hick died with his dog. As they were walking down a country road they come across a s gate and a sign that says "No Dogs". The gate keeper tries to convince the hick to enter but he will not enter without his dog and keeps on moving. He then comes upon a second gate where the gate keeper allows him and his dog to enter and it turns out that the first gate was hell and the second gate is heaven.

I believe that is a Twilight Zone episode called "The Long Hunt".

[Neurotik]

That was a good one. One of my favorites, I must say. Everyone I know always say "The Living Doll" was the best, but I like the dog one.

[Triskadecamus]

StPauler, Regarding the Atheist: He was accompanying his brother, who was unable to travel alone on the trip.

Skip, no, the bus driver was the drunk, remember? :)

Amp and Kn*ckers I am much embarrassed to admit, the first three rough drafts were a lot meaner. Yeah, love everyone, you bastards! That's about it. But telling a bunch of folks that their religious views are a trap, and will get their souls lost is pretty much still pit territory, I think. But on this general subject, calling people goat felchers and the like felt, . . . unseemly.

And on the matter of the "The Hunt" I was very much influenced by it. But I have not had that much experience with the theological condemnation of dog ownership. YMMV.

Tris

[SkipMagic]

Originally posted by Triskadecamus
Skip, no, the bus driver was the drunk, remember? :)

Yeah, you're right. I keep forgetting that atheists can't touch alcohol and all because, as you know, we don't believe in spirits.
:D

[Liberal]

Breathtaking. Thanks, Tris.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

The unreadable sign was a nice touch. :)

[NurseCarmen]

Didn't the episode on the Twilight Zone have a Tennessee cop blow the dog's head off?

[iampunha]

You know, Baker (or someone who's in whatever area He Who Shall Not be Named happens to be in) might like to distribute copies of this parable at the next protest...

[SkipMagic]

You know, Baker (or someone who's in whatever area He Who Shall Not be Named happens to be in) might like to distribute copies of this parable at the next protest...

You know, auntie em and I were out driving last weekend (probably hunting for food, but possibly just wasting gas and killing the environment) and we ran across (not "over", so stop it) some of Phelp's cutting crew.

There were... what, maybe three of 'em? Or four? I couldn't tell what the hell (heh) they were protesting (maybe the church across the street from them), but none of them seemed interested in actually doing anything other than leaning on their signs. And, of course, the other Topekans just ignored them. Rant enough, I suppose, and you become just another one of life's daily annoyances.

Anyhoo, at that point I just kind of figured no one pays much attention to them until either the media needs filler or they (Fred & Co.) does something outrageously heinous.

At any rate, if what I saw is any indication of what that group's future holds, then I think they'll eventually fade away. Miracles, eh?

[Charogne]

There are a lot of good, kind, smart posters on the board who try to make the world a little bit better for all of us. But Tris, you seem to have a special knack for making my eyes water. Love ya back.

[jjimm]

Did they let the drunk driver in, too?

[Homebrew]

Yes.

[vanilla]

But how?
Does it not say in the Bible that drunks (paraphrased) will not enter? Not to mention liars etc?

I'm not claiming anything here, just asking.

[jjimm]

Originally posted by vanilla
But how?
Does it not say in the Bible that drunks (paraphrased) will not enter? Not to mention liars etc? Note that Tris didn't mention Christianity in the OP, just Heaven.

[vanilla]

hmmmmm;)

[jjimm]

Just my take on it.

[Triskadecamus]

I am a Christian.

I do not believe that the parable is inconsistent with the nature of Christian Salvation as I have come to believe in it. Those not wishing to enter through this door, may find a door that denies those they feel uncomfortable joining in Heaven.

But I wonder. If the Lord welcomes those you wish for Him to despise, will you then refuse to join Him?

Tris

[Derleth]

Tris: I'm an atheist in the sense of the word that I regard any supernatural entities or existence beyond the physical to be unproven and, therefore, regard religious beliefs to be a waste of my time.

But I'm also a big fan of philosophical hypotheticals, and I've given the issue some thought after I read your great parable. I've come to the conclusion that I would be tempted to enter a gate that was expressly forbidden me, simply to spite any deity that would refuse my presence. I would also realize that spite is no way to spend an eternity, so I would give that door an absolutely nasty look and walk down until I found a door that had no restrictions on it whatsoever. I cannot accept an exclusive afterlife.

When I was younger, I was a Protestant (Church of Christ in specific, but in reality a fairly non-denominational middle-of-the-road Protestantism with no specific emphasis beyond being a good person). I tried to reconcile my own philosophies, as I held them at the time, with what I was learning in Sunday school and from religious people around me. I came to the conclusion that at death, the soul separates into two distinct entities: Good and Bad. The Good is destined for Heaven, the Bad is destined for Hell (or perhaps nonexistence). Good people might only have a tiny little speck of Bad to lose, and bad people might only have a tiny little speck of Good to be saved, but everybody would split. Heaven would be a paradise for everyone because nobody would be burdened by an unworthy element.

The implication of my former belief is that in everyone, there is a part that is worth saving, whether or not it actually is saved, and a part that is not worth saving. I still think that, but without the religious aspects.

[Count Trari de Reeson]

So your idea of Heaven is place for adulterers, thieves, drunks, and other sinners, as long as they accept that behavior in others?
Interesting idea.

[Liberal]

They did not suffer for behavior; they suffered for people.

[Triskadecamus]

Count Trari de Reeson said:[quote] So your idea of Heaven is place for adulterers, thieves, drunks, and other sinners, as long as they accept that behavior in others?[/b] [b]Don't forget the atheists, faggots, and Mormans! Wouldn't want to forget them. It just wouldn't be Heaven without those guys.

Oh, yeah, and the Harlots, and tax collectors, and publicans, too!

Tris
--------------------
"The Way of Heaven is to benefit others and not to injure." ~ Lao-tzu ~

[heresiarch]

Originally posted by Count Trari de Reeson
So your idea of Heaven is place for adulterers, thieves, drunks, and other sinners, as long as they accept that behavior in others?
Interesting idea. They didn't get to Heaven because they accepted each other's behavior - they got there because they chose to support each other in love instead of letting condemnation split them apart.

Nice story, Triskadecamus.

[JerseyDiamond]

Originally posted by Count Trari de Reeson
So your idea of Heaven is place for adulterers, thieves, drunks, and other sinners, as long as they accept that behavior in others?
Interesting idea.

Sounds more like Hell to me. Unless these people repent, they cannot be in Gods presents.

Then again, if you don't believe the Bible and you make up your own rules, anything goes........

[JerseyDiamond]

replace presents with presence..........sorry

[grendel72]

Well if that's hell, Jersey, we know where all the best people are going to wind up. Personally, an eternity with judgemental prigs on all sides of me sounds more like hell.

[samarm]

Sounds more like Hell to me. Unless these people repent, they cannot be in Gods presents.You mean "presence"? That's your opinion. Who are you to judge?

Then again, if you don't believe the Bible and you make up your own rules, anything goes.......And what is the Bible if not a bunch of made up rules?

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by JerseyDiamond
Sounds more like Hell to me. Unless these people repent, they cannot be in Gods presents.

Then again, if you don't believe the Bible and you make up your own rules, anything goes........

Well, being in a room with you and your "perfect" brethren would be nothing short of hellish to me.

Now, could you take your sanctimonious Stepford ass to service your moronic husband.

[Klaatu]

Originally posted by JerseyDiamond
Sounds more like Hell to me. Unless these people repent, they cannot be in Gods presents.

Then again, if you don't believe the Bible and you make up your own rules, anything goes........

That of course would be in your own humble opinion I assume.
Many people in this world get along fine without having to define their lives according to whatever "Bible" you speak of.

[Glory]

As an atheist, I've thought about God quite a bit. I thought, well, what if I had proof, real proof that God exists, would I believe?

Yes.

And then I thought, what if I had proof, real proof that God is as JerseyDiamond suggests, would I worship him?

No.

[Guinastasia]

Sounds more like Hell to me. Unless these people repent, they cannot be in Gods presents.


Well, considering these were the kinds of people Jesus hung around with in his day, I guess you don't believe he is God then, either?

[Enderw24]

What about blacks or women? The story said nothing about them. Surely those types of people wouldn't be allowed into Heaven, would they?

[Polycarp]

Sounds more like Hell to me. Unless these people repent, they cannot be in Gods presents.

Then again, if you don't believe the Bible and you make up your own rules, anything goes........

Huh. Is Jesus God? What did He do when He encountered a sinner?

And on the other thing -- some of us do believe the Bible and its message of grace to those who don't deserve it, free for the asking, not the made-up rules some people have about whom God does or does not love. (Naming no names nor accusing anyone here... just an observation ;))

[Derleth]

If I had real proof a deity exists, would I need to believe?

No. That's what `proof' means.

If I had proof that a deity that does not meet my own standards exists, would I worship?

No.

Would I worship any deity that I had proof for the existence of?

No. I would attempt to gain an understanding of it, possibly form a friendship with it if possible, but I would no more `worship' it than I worship the Coal Sack Nebula or the beautiful complexity of pure mathematics. I think comprehension is a higher goal than devotion.

[Triskadecamus]

So, [b]Velma]/b] are you picking up on why this thread is in the pit? :)

Tris

[JerseyDiamond]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Well, considering these were the kinds of people Jesus hung around with in his day, I guess you don't believe he is God then, either?

I think you are forgetting or ignoring the part about Jesus going to these people because they needed to be saved. He went to teach them the way. Not to tell them that everyone is ok, keep doing what you are doing, but to go forth and sin no more. Remember that, Guin?

[Klaatu]

But Poly, why should one have to ask?

I have had little, if any interaction with you on this board, and have nothing but respect for you. But as an atheist, I would wonder why a deity would require asking forgiveness to be accepted into the fold.

I understand the bit about original sin, and so forth, but having to ask for forgiveness for something I have never done seems a bit arrogant of the deity I am supposedly trying to worship.

And apologies for the following, but it seems to me that to get in the good graces of the "Christian" God, I must basically bend over and kiss ass or I am not worthy.

I guess I will never understand the "Either worship ME or you are doomed to a life in Hell." Whats the point? I just don't get that.

I don't like the demanding tone that is apparent in "The Word"

[Guinastasia]

What I REMEMBER is him saying, "Yes, you are a sinner, but I will always forgive you."

And it is for GOD in heaven to judge, not YOU, Jersey.

[Joe_Cool]

Originally posted by grendel72
Well if that's hell, Jersey, we know where all the best people are going to wind up. Personally, an eternity with judgemental prigs on all sides of me sounds more like hell.

All the best people are drunks, thieves, and adulterers? Odd, your way of looking at things.

Guinastasia and Polycarp: Since you're talking about the same thing, I'll try to address you both together.

You know as well as I do that forgiveness isn't just thrown at you. You only get it if you want it - and sincerely. A contrite heart gets forgiveness. Poly asked "what did Jesus do when he encountered a sinner?" And we all know the answer is twofold: 1) he said (sometimes), "your sins are forgiven," and 2) he said "Go and sin no more." The two parts are integral to each other.

And guinastasia, when are you going to learn the difference between preaching the gospel and passing judgment? What jerseydiamond said is WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. If you don't like it, then your problem is with God, not with her. And while saying "You can't judge! You're not God!" might seem cute and win you some popularity points on SD, it's not addressing the truth. If you don't like what the bible says, then at least be honest and say you reject the bible. You can't say you're a catholic who believes the bible to be the word of God, but at the same time fight and argue against what it plainly says.

[Glory]

So God picked up his holy Bic and wrote the Bible out longhand? It's not possible that the words in the text might be filtered through the personalities and mindset of the time it was written? Written by mortal and fallible individuals, to boot. Not to mention the many translations?

The Bible != God

[Joe_Cool]

Originally posted by Hastur
Well, being in a room with you and your "perfect" brethren would be nothing short of hellish to me.

Now, could you take your sanctimonious Stepford ass to service your moronic husband.

Personal insults are always an excellent way to claim the moral high ground.

[Joe_Cool]

Originally posted by Glory
So God picked up his holy Bic and wrote the Bible out longhand? It's not possible that the words in the text might be filtered through the personalities and mindset of the time it was written? Written by mortal and fallible individuals, to boot. Not to mention the many translations?

The Bible != God

And the Constitution != the founders of the U.S. What's your point? It's still their words and the law of the land.

I don't suppose you'd mind showing me where anybody ever said the Bible == God?

[iampunha]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool
All the best people are drunks, thieves, and adulterers? Odd, your way of looking at things.

Well, let's look at just one example.

A man (then a boy) loses his father to WWI in 1918. He helps his mother to raise his five siblings (two of whom die from childhood illnesses) and goes on to become a successful writer, poet, editor and member of the community. He holds a degree from Georgetown, holds the position of editor of Poetry for the Washington Post, helps to found a school and a church, gives substantial sums of money to both religious and non-religious charities (such as Amnesty International), and even in his retirement continues to work for his community. Oh, and he also goes to church every Sunday (the one he helped found).

Stellar man, yes?

Had to stop driving because he didn't know when to stop drinking. Cheated on his fiancee (before she became his wife ... this was back in the 30s) and generally refused to acknowledge the existence of either his illegitimate son's mother or said son. Molested everything in sight and lied about it boldface when he could have started a rather useful healing process. That effectively makes him a child rapist, which some of you may find to be more morally repugnant than an adulterer or a thief.

Unless you knew him closely, he was one of the best people.

Then there's the man who was separated from his family for the first six months of his life (in a hospital for reasons I've forgotten). He was a bit of a loner as a child, generally "buried his face in books", incredibly bright; graduated either two or three years ahead of his class. Went on to a rather spectacular college career, did his PhD (or graduate; memory is fuzzy here) work on bounded harmonic functions at MIT.

Then, as Sean MaGuire is fond of saying, "He moved to Montana and he blew the competition away."

Ted Kaczinsky.

Or we could talk about the story of this guy who ordered a half-dozen or so plagues to be brought down on Egypt, but I'm pretty sure you're familiar with that particular character, even though it's several thousand years old.

The gates of Heaven are not barred from sinners. They're barred from those who don't want to be there (that *might* be some Catholic doctrine slipping in there ... if someone who knows more'n I do could let me know, I'd be all kinds of grateful:)).


Poly asked "what did Jesus do when he encountered a sinner?" And we all know the answer is twofold: 1) he said (sometimes), "your sins are forgiven," and 2) he said "Go and sin no more." The two parts are integral to each other.

And whose place is it, other than Christ's, to say "Go and sin no more"?

And guinastasia, when are you going to learn the difference between preaching the gospel and passing judgment? What jerseydiamond said is WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.

Guin (and I, evidently), maybe you missed the part where Jersey Diamond has a patent on everything the Bible says. Coming next week: "Just what exactly is Paul saying about long hair and talking in Church?" Jersey Diamond explains!

If you don't like it, then your problem is with God, not with her.

Should I or someone else remind you of the oft-reviled person living in Kansas whose offspring you sound like right now?

And while saying "You can't judge! You're not God!" might seem cute and win you some popularity points on SD, it's not addressing the truth.

Except that it is the truth.

If you don't like what the bible says, then at least be honest and say you reject the bible. You can't say you're a catholic who believes the bible to be the word of God, but at the same time fight and argue against what it plainly says.

1. We both (Guin and I) must have missed the part where you, Joe_Cool, had some sort of stranglehold on what a Catholic can or cannot do.

2. "What it plainly says" ... haven't we gone back and forth enough hundreds of times on the very fact that discerning the exact meaning of anything in the Bible is rather difficult? *YOU* may believe it says X. That in no way means that your interpretation is 100% correct.

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by Glory
So God picked up his holy Bic and wrote the Bible out longhand? It's not possible that the words in the text might be filtered through the personalities and mindset of the time it was written? Written by mortal and fallible individuals, to boot. Not to mention the many translations?

The Bible != God

You know, it's been said before, and I don't think they will agree now anymore than they ever have.

But it is still good that it is being said.

[Larry Mudd]

Thanks, that's the only bit of glurge I've ever felt compelled to send on to my friends.

[Glory]

Bible - literally true, right? So, the story where God tells Adam and Eve directly NOT to eat the apple and they still do, that's a TRUE story. A true story that illustrates that God's will is not perfectly followed by weak and fallible human beings.

I can not reconcile this story with the idea that the numerous writers/translaters working on the Bible for years (although supposedly under God's divine will) didn't make mistakes or write their own interpretations of events.

I mean, if God could really make individuals do what he wanted (ie perfectly transcribe his Word despite personalities, time and translation) it would still be Adam and Eve kicking it in Paradise right now.

[JerseyDiamond]

It's called free will Glory.

And we cannot be perfect. Only God can. We can only try to do His will.
It wasn't God's plan to make us robots.

if you want to talk literal, it was fruit, not apple
hey, everyone else does it, why not me...... :D

[iampunha]

Glory, good luck getting anyone here (and I do mean anyone) to tell you to a degree with which you are satisfied why they take some Bible stories to be literal and why they take others to be parables. Some things you just take on faith, or you don't.

However.

"Because I believe it" is basically the debatorial (is that a word?) equivalent, in my experience (here, at least), or saying "I (choose to) believe this in the absence, perhaps, of any concrete evidence; you are free to disagree."

At least, for the more well-spoken among us. Then there are those who still have issues grasping the concept that theirs is possibly not the most true-to-God's-word (if-you-believe-it-*is*-God's-word [if-you-believe-in-God-at-all) understanding of the Bible. You will know them because they still struggle with the idea that someone else's religious viewpoint can be every bit as valid as their own.

[Desmostylus]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool
All the best people are drunks, thieves, and adulterers? Odd, your way of looking at things.
Nah, put me in a room full of hateful, judgemental assholes any day. ;)

[grendel72]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool
All the best people are drunks, thieves, and adulterers? Odd, your way of looking at things.
Not really. Those who value friendship above judgementalism, loyalty above servitude, love above hate... apparently all of those people are going to wind up in hell.
I have a feeling that with company like that we won't notice that we're supposed to be sufferring.

[Count Trari de Reeson]

Triskadecamus, If the point of your story was to preach to the choir that we should accept stealing, adultry, and drunkeness, and indeed we should suffer for those who perform those acts, well then it is apparent from the post to this thread that you succeeded. If you where trying to convert others to that line of thinking, you did not. It is a pretty goofy story.

Don't forget the atheists, faggots, and Mormans! Wouldn't want to forget them. It just wouldn't be Heaven without those guys.

I don't see that this group of people should be included with the drunks and thieves, and as and atheist I feel somewhat offended that you grouped us together.

[Liberal]

Iampunha wrote:

Glory, good luck getting anyone here (and I do mean anyone) to tell you to a degree with which you are satisfied why they take some Bible stories to be literal and why they take others to be parables.I don't know if this will satisfy Glory, but I reject anything that contradicts the premise, "God is Love" — love being the conduit of goodness.

[Liberal]

Count wrote:

It is a pretty goofy story.Let me guess. You think the older brother had every right to complain and be jealous, didn't you? ;)

[Count Trari de Reeson]

Let me guess. You think the older brother had every right to complain and be jealous, didn't you?

Huh?

[Siege]

I cannot tell you how tired I am of reading Damnation! Damnation! Damnation! from some people around here! You say you are only condemning people who don't follow God's law. I say that God's law given by Christ himself is "'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" as stated in Matthew 18:39. How is damning someone loving them? By the standards of Fundamentalist Christianity, anyone who accepts Christ as their Saviour is not damned. That includes Catholics, Mormons, and homosexuals, drunkards, thieves, and yes, even that twit who keeps handing you Jack Chick tracts. That's the minimum.

Telling someone "You cannot get to heaven unless you accept Christ as your Saviour but God hates what you do or what you are" is not loving them. It's driving them from the grace you so zealously embrace.

I cannot tell you how fervently I pray that you may never walk into a room and get looks which say "What's she doing here?" I pray that you may never be continually damned, condemned and outcast because you cannot choose to reject someone you know to be a good honorable and decent person. I pray that you may never experience the cruelty that some who are proudest of their relationship with Christ show, and by that I mean ordinary, small town people.

I have been in the position I described. The person I loved was not a homosexual, a drunkard, and she was certainly not an adulterer. She was a girl I befriended back in kindergarten who had handicaps. She used leg and back braces and had a speech impediment, and the kids who fancied themselves popular or respectable would not associate with her. Instead, she was called all sorts of vile things to the point where to this day, over 20 years later, she is still afraid of "mean people." This girl was insulted in church, for heaven's sake. If there is no respite from cruelty, from being outcast even in the House of the Lord, where can there be respite? She is still, despite the actions of others, a Christian, and right now she's probably a better one than I am.

I'm confessing to God; I may as well do it here at the same time. Forgive me. I lost my temper just now and I let my anger overwhelm me to the point where it eclipsed my love of God and the love I am required to show to my fellow man. I was overwhelmed by my pain at being outcast and my anger at seeing that done to someone who did nothing to deserve it beyond being born. My plea will, I have no doubt, fall on deaf ears, and I have no doubt there are a couple of people gearing up for a good flaming even as they read this, but please, try to understand. Every time someone says "There is no room for X, or Y, or Z in heaven" I hear "There is no room for you." When you condemn my brother, you also condemn me, for I will not choose to abandon him. The girl I described did not finish high school. The abuse and the insults got to the point where she had a nervous breakdown and had to leave school. She was, I think, 16 when this happened, too young to commit the sins some rail against. I could not support her to the end. I know now I did not abandon her, but nevertheless, my choice freely given before God Himself remains. I will not abandon my brothers and sisters. If that means I am condemned to worse tortures in Hell than human minds can begin to conceive of, so be it.

Sorrowfully,
CJ

[Desmostylus]

I understand your feelings, cjhoworth.

But hateful people abound in this world.

It doesn't matter whether they, themselves, think they are true Christians, or true Muslims, or true atheists, or true whatevers.

Hate is hate.

Lots of self-proclaimed true Christians practise it.

Christ, of course, would urge me to turn the other cheek. But I can't resist calling them hateful assholes.

[Liberal]

Originally posted by Count Trari de Reeson
Huh? Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.

"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' So he got up and went to his father.

"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

"'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'"

Luke 15:11-32

[vanilla]

God's word says there will be no sin in Heaven.
God is just.
Yes, He forgives totally, but you (the sinner-we all are)
must repent, meaning turn from sinning.
Anyone can get into heaven, even mass murderers, IF they have repented.
God forgives anyone-but they must repent.
Am I clear? maybe I'm not, but I hope the point gets through.

[RTFirefly]

To see what Jesus said to sinners, I'm skimming the NT here, starting with the Gospel according to Matthew. After His baptism and temptation, the first sinners Jesus encounters are Peter, Andrew, James, and John. (Ch.4) Jesus says to them: "Come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."

Second specific encounter (Ch.8) is with a leper. Jesus heals him.

Third (Ch.8) is with a Roman centurion who asks Jesus to heal his servant. Jesus says he will heal the servant, then compliments the centurion on his faith.

And so it goes. When Jesus encounters the paralytic in Ch. 9, he doesn't say, "have you repented?" before he says, "Your sins are forgiven."

How Jesus treated sinners is well documented in the Bible. Are we supposed to use a different approach than He did? Aside from the limitation that we only have the power to proffer forgiveness for sins committed against us, I doubt it.

[vanilla]

Yes, and after He forgave them, they repented out of gratitude.

[Siege]

Cite?

[vanilla]

no cite.
Wouldn't you?

[Siege]

Actually, counter cite. Luke 17:11-1911Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee. 12As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosy met him. They stood at a distance 13and called out in a loud voice, "Jesus, Master, have pity on us!"
14When he saw them, he said, "Go, show yourselves to the priests." And as they went, they were cleansed.
15One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. 16He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him--and he was a Samaritan.
17Jesus asked, "Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? 18Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?" 19Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well."
The tenth beggar showed gratitude, not repentance, and there is no mention of what happened to the remaining nine.

CJ

[vanilla]

So his faith-in coming back and thanking Him-made him well.
I am sure he was grateful.

[Liberal]

Do you give gifts only to people who show sufficient gratitude? Do you forgive only those who ask you to?

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool
Personal insults are always an excellent way to claim the moral high ground.

I know. And it is so satisfying too!

:D

[Homebrew]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool
Personal insults are always an excellent way to claim the moral high ground.

Now that's the pot calling the kettle black.

[Mars Horizon]

Joe, Jersey, et al -

I know that you can find many, many scriptures that point out some rather stringent restrictions on who can and who cannot "go to heaven", but I wonder how you reconcile them with more expansive expressions of grace found in that same book?

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.andGod is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.Cite (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1JOHN+4&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)

[Mars Horizon]

And a follow on -

How can someone "know God" and be "born of God" and "live in God and God in him", and yet be turned away from this same God's heaven? :confused:

[Velma]

Originally posted by Triskadecamus
So, [b]Velma]/b] are you picking up on why this thread is in the pit? :)

Tris

sigh. I guess I knew why it was here. It's just...unfortunate that this turned out to be the right place for it.

[Count Trari de Reeson]

I was taking the broader view that the heaven in the story was a metaphor for a life well lived. I did not realize that we were to take it literally. If you guys are arguing over how to get into a place that I don’t believe exists, then I must bow out. I do not accept however that unrepentant thieves, drunks and adulators belong grouped with gays, Muslims and atheists. I understand that the point of the op was “everybody’s beautiful in their own way” but this sentiment is both false and trite.

[JerseyDiamond]

Originally posted by Mars Horizon
Joe, Jersey, et al -

I know that you can find many, many scriptures that point out some rather stringent restrictions on who can and who cannot "go to heaven", but I wonder how you reconcile them with more expansive expressions of grace found in that same book?

andCite (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1JOHN+4&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)

Do you know what the book was about or who it was to, or did you just do a search on love?

John is writing to various churches. Johns was providing direction for thoses Christians who faced new challenges.
Johns goals was to get Christians to have a deeper fellowship with God.

Let's see: It's about:
----walking in the light-----
If we say that we are followerers of God but we do not tell the truth or follow the truth, we are walking in darkness and do not know the truth.
If we follow God and walk in the truth together, we have true fellowship with each other and God.

----a believer's assurance----
We know God if we keep His commandments.
Whoever says they know Him and do not is a liar.
Who ever keeps the word of God has His perfect love.

----exhortation of brotherly love----
The word of god is in you.
love your brother, because you cannot have light and hate your brother. if you hate your brother, you are in darkness.

----not loving the world----
If you love worldly things, the love of God is not in you.
Worldly things are not of god.

----the promise of eternal life----
Tells of the coming of false teachers and the antichrist.
Tells us that the Holy spirit guards believers from error and guides him to the truth.
If we do this, we can be confident when christ returns that we will go with him and have eternal life.

----living as a true believer----
If we abide in God, believers are adopted into God's family and are called His sons.
if you do right in God, then you are righteous, like Christ.
When you keep sinning, you belong to the devil.
If you do not obey god's commands and does not love other Christians, does not belong to God.

----to love in deed and truth-----
do not love just by saying I love you to your brother. Love your brother by good deeds. Love by not lying.

----try the spirits----
Do not believe everyone that claims to speak by the spirit. They must be tested to see if they are of God!!!!!
People who belong to this world speak from this worlds point of view, and the world listens to them.
People who know God, recognize people who speak the truth, and they listen. Others will refute the truth.

Mars Horizon, this is the verse you were particularly fond of, right? Now that you know a little about what John was writing about and who he was writing to, what is you take on it (without changing anything)?
----God is love and love one another----
1 John 4:7:




I will only go on to say this:
1 John 5:13 KJV--- These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:13 NIV--- I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

[Siege]

Vanilla, as you may have gathered I was somewhat cranky this morning. We also pulled off a simulpost earlier -- I didn't see your reply before I typed my countercite. I actually rather like the tale of the ten lepers because to me it shows Christ in a particularly human moment, wondering why only one person thought to thank him or appreciate him. He made all ten ritually clean, and I've been trying to work out the difference between ritually clean and healed with no success. Since Bible Gateway notes that the word translated as "leprosy" actually referred to a variety of skin diseases, maybe it was acne, and the other nine's acne came back?;) That's entirely meant as a joke; this is something I'm going to have to think about some more.

John 9:1-34 tells of Jesus' encounter with a man who was blind since birth. His disciples asked Him who had sinned, the man or his parents, because, I understand, handicaps were believed to be the result of sin. Jesus said "Neither this man nor his parents sinned,but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. " He then heals the blind man and sends him on his way. The blind man then proceeds to get in a bit of trouble with the Pharisees, as do his parents, because they didn't understand how a man so sinful he was blind could possibly be the recipient of a miracle. The Pharisees also conclude Jesus must be a sinner. The story concludes with the blind man saying, "Now that is remarkable! You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."

To this [the Pharisees] replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out.
I don't see anything here which indicates the blind man was repentant, and there's quite a bit of dispute about how sinful he was. If anything, he sounds proud he was healed.

As Christians, I believe we are required to repent of our sins as soon after we commit them as possible. I prefer formally acknowledging them to God, not because He doesn't know about them, but because by acknowledging them to God, I also acknowledge them to myself. Otherwise, it's too easy to fall into the trap of "Who me? I haven't done anything wrong. At least, not recently." Off hand, I can't think of anything in the Gospels which states outright that someone repented after Christ healed him, but that could also be due to my particular focus. Like I said, I did remember the ten lepers and the man blind since birth, but I didn't remember that correctly -- I thought it was the Pharisees who asked Christ who sinned (thank you www.biblegateway.com!).

To me, who does or does not gain salvation is riddled with paradoxes. In the end, I hold two separate, contradictory beliefs. First, as a Christian I am assured a place in heaven. Second, every time I condemn someone to hell, even if it's in thought alone, I come that much closer to condemning myself. Certainly, even if I can't damn myself out of heaven, I do damage my own soul. As I've said many times on this Board and will probably continue to do so, it is not my place to judge. I don't pretend to be an expert on the Bible, but I know what I believe I have been taught by God to believe. If I am foolishly stubborn at times, well, it's the way He made me, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out God, Himself, has sighed at my persistent willfulness. Still, I will help, guide, and correct when I have to, but I will condemn no man.

I'm glad God knows what he's doing, because I sure don't!
CJ

[Mars Horizon]

Originally posted by JerseyDiamond
Do you know what the book was about or who it was to, or did you just do a search on love?I did know, thanks! 33 years as a (former) Southern Baptist, and you can bet your bippy I know my Bible. :) John is writing to various churches. Johns was providing direction for those Christians...Indeed - The New Testament is comprised of many letters from one apostle or another as instruction to various churches - does that mean non believers may disregard the proscriptions and prescriptions contained therein? Now that you know a little about what John was writing about and who he was writing to, what is you take on it (without changing anything)?You said it better than I could, Jersey - God is love and love one another.

Why change a thing? IMHO, a suitable directive for all to follow, yes?

[JerseyDiamond]

Yes, God is love and love one another!
He gives us every chance in the world to follow Him.

The point is, the letter written by John, was to believers.
You took a verse out of that particular book, and I don't look at just the verse, I look at everything around it.

I think there are many non believers that like some of the passages in the Bible. They follow it, (not because it's from the bible), but because humans love. That is fine to a certain extent. The problem here is ( it is not hard to love the world or worldly things, or worldy people,) that is easy.

Overall, yes, it is a good passage to follow, but John is talking specifically to Believers, period..........

Why change anything, you ask? Because loving the world and worldly things will not save you!

33 years, eh?! :(

[Liberal]

(Apologies to Fenris)

Jersey: ...sexual immorality, witchcraft, gluttony... these are sins!

Jesus: Jersey...

Jersey: ...God's love is not in you if you don't believe...

Jesus: Jersey...

Jersey: ...John ain't talking to heathens, he's talking to us!...

Jesus: Um, Jersey...

Jersey: ...the message of love is for believers, not unbelievers!...

Jesus: Jersey, If I could just...

Jersey: ...we're not supposed to love worldly people unless they're our enemies, I guess...

Jesus: Jersey, I want you to...

Jersey: ...God is speaking to us, not to them. See? The Bible says so...

Jesus: Jersey...

Jersey: ...nonbelievers like parts of the Bible, sure!...

Jesus: Jersey, please hear me...

Jersey: ...but nonbelievers don't hear the voice of God!...

Jesus: [sigh]

Jersey: ...I hear God's voice because I believe!...

Jesus: [turning to the others] I am hosting a big feast. Would any of you like to come?

Jersey: [watching everyone walk away] ...You see! I'm right! All of you are turning from the word of God!... [shaking his Bible at them] ...Go ahead! Run away! I wipe your dust off my feet!

[Everyone is gone now]

Jersey: Jesus? Jesus, you there? Earth to Jesus...

[JerseyDiamond]

Lib, when did you become Jesus? :rolleyes:

great argument, by the way.... *shakes head*

[Joe_Cool]

Originally posted by Libertarian


So that's the best response you have? Talk about weak and pathetic.

[JerseyDiamond]

Also, Lib, do not put words in my mouth!

I will continue to refute any lies you preach, and you can continue to tell people that you love, and most likely they will believe you.
Like the Word of God says, " there will be many false teachers" Jude 1:19--- These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

those who know God, recognize those who speak the truth of God

Jude 1:22-23 Be merciful to those who doubt; {23} snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

I am not going to do this anymore with you. I do not worship love as you do, so there is nothing more to say.

[Liberal]

Jersey wrote:

I will continue to refute any lies you preach, and you can continue to tell people that you love, and most likely they will believe you.I've never told anyone that I love. On the contrary, I've told people plainly that my moral journey is to learn how to love. I have quite a ways to go.

I do not worship love as you do, so there is nothing more to say.God go with you, Jersey.

[tiny ham]

Overall, yes, it is a good passage to follow, but John is talking specifically to Believers, period..........

How sad to hear a Christian claim that we're only supposed to love believers. :( I wasn't aware, Jersey, that there were parts of the Bible that only believers could read.

I have to give you and Joe_Cool a hand, though. You make me want to be a better Christian, and to show Christ's love more thoroughly, if only to cancel you out.

[Fatwater Fewl]

Originally posted by Count Trari de Reeson
I was taking the broader view that the heaven in the story was a metaphor for a life well lived. I did not realize that we were to take it literally. If you guys are arguing over how to get into a place that I don’t believe exists, then I must bow out. I do not accept however that unrepentant thieves, drunks and adulators belong grouped with gays, Muslims and atheists. I understand that the point of the op was “everybody’s beautiful in their own way” but this sentiment is both false and trite.
From my point of view, the OP's point was that we're all human, all just bozos on the bus. No one of us better than any other.

I have yet to find anyone in this world that I can not learn something from -- if I'm willing to put aside my preconceived notions and assumptions, my resentments and grudges, my pride. Call that false and trite, if you like. I have done the same in the past. I might do the same today or tomorrow. But it will not negate the moments of epiphany and joy I (as an agnostic) have felt when I have managed to put myself to one side and been able to forgive and listen and comfort.

I don't even like saying this because even as I type there are hard places in my heart which I fear that this post may be softening ever so slightly. I feel them, and today I am not willing to have them soften. There are people I don't want to forgive. I know how hate feels. And it ain't pretty. So I carry on, and do my damndest not to act on that hate in word or deed.

Because in the larger scheme of things, whether you want to speak of that as humanity as a whole or as something other, I am -- as much as it eats at my pride to say so -- no better than anyone I might hate, or who might hate me.

[Homebrew]

Originally posted by JerseyDiamond
I do not worship love as you do, so there is nothing more to say.

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

You are right. 'Nuff said.

[masonite]

<sarcasm: ON>

Now, Homebrew, that passage was written to Christians only, so you're not supposed to be reading that. Besides, as we all know, the first and most important duty of a Chrisitian is to point out the sins of others. I know; Oswald Chambers told me so.

You godless heathens need to get over this notion you seem to have picked up that God Is Love; you can't understand it because you're not One Of Us. And you're not supposed to read the parts of the Bible that might explain it; they weren't addressed to you, so it's really none of your business.

All the parts of the Bible that talk about your horrible sin and the torments of Hell - they were addressed to you. Read up on them, and be very afraid. I'm just telling you the truth; I won't lie to you; I love you too much to lie. The truth is - you're in terrible danger of the Loving God torturing you for all eternity. Get with the program, sinner. By the way, I love you.

All the parts of the Bible that talk about Love - sorry, that's for us Christians only. It's a Christian thing, you really wouldn't understand.

<sarcasm OFF>

This thread has made me fucking physically ill. No offense to the OP - I can't imagine you could have predicted the response from certain followers of selected parts of the written word of God.

There is to be absolutely no discussion of the Love and Mercy of God on these boards, apparently, without a small camp of Bible-worshippers coming in to talk about Sin and Hell.

Well, thanks, Jersey and Joe, for trying to keep us sinners on the straight and narrow.

Oops, that was sarcastic too. I don't thank you; I resent you. You throw cold water on EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION that gets too loving. Gotta keep the focus on Sin and Damnation, it seems.

Well I'm fucking sick of it. Why don't you two have your own threads about how much God hates everybody, and leave the rest of us alone for a while?

Oh, I know - it's because you LOVE us too much to lie to us.

Would it be possible to love us for a little while by leaving us the fuck alone? As a special favor? Next time you see a thread about Love, can you refrain from coming in and reminding us about Hate and Torture and Hell and Death? Pretty-please? It's not your duty to stamp out all apostasy on these boards, and it's not possible.

Please, just go away.

[Liberal]

Interestingly, Masonite, they never posted in the thread called Love (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154914). Maybe the title was too repugnant. :D

[Liberal]

Also, this...

The truth is - you're in terrible danger of the Loving God torturing you for all eternity. Get with the program, sinner. By the way, I love you....reminded me of that famous scene from Misery!

She breaks his foot with a two-by-four, looks at him lustily, and sighs, "God, I love you!"

[masonite]

Lib, I never posted in that thread either, because frankly, you talk WAY over my head sometimes! I'm just not smart enough to hang in threads like that. I wouldn't hold it against anyone for avoiding any particular thread.

Jersey, Joe: already I'm feeling bad for losing my temper and snapping at you. Please forgive me for that. But please also take my mangled message to heart: you talk about hell ALL THE TIME, and it's starting to look like an obsession. If anybody is being Loving, you come in and try to break it up. I question your motivation.

Peace. I'm sorry I was angry, and if we discuss these things, I'll try to control my anger.

[Liberal]

Love is a simple thing. It's just the River of Goodness.

[JerseyDiamond]

Originally posted by masonite
Jersey, Joe: already I'm feeling bad for losing my temper and snapping at you. Please forgive me for that. But please also take my mangled message to heart: you talk about hell ALL THE TIME, and it's starting to look like an obsession. If anybody is being Loving, you come in and try to break it up. I question your motivation.

Peace. I'm sorry I was angry, and if we discuss these things, I'll try to control my anger.

Don't feel bad! This is part of what a messageboard is about. Telling people what you think. I don't take offense.

The only reason we talk about Hell, is because people ask what we believe about it, and when we reply, we get ambushed. Not a big deal though. I come to expect it, ya know?!

The bottom line is, we only talk about Hell when asked.

Remember the movie Poltergeist? Remember when that loving guy, (the devil) was trying to show the light (mislead them) to all those unknowing people? "Come into the light"

I could not stand by and watch that happen without doing something. (it may not make a huge difference, but at least I tried) I know it seems like I am raining on a happy parade, but that is not the case.

[iampunha]

I'd just like to point out for those of you who are not scoring at home that His4ever has yet to show up in this thread. Whether it's because she's taking a break from the boards/pit or because she's taking the advice many of us gave, she isn't here.

She's evolving ... watch out.

[Homebrew]

Originally posted by JerseyDiamond
The bottom line is, we only talk about Hell when asked.
Please provide a cite from this thread where your opinions on Hell were requested? Yet, here you are posting in it.

[masonite]

Jersey, you are gracious; thank you.

Sure, the devil can disguise himself as an angel of light. But I get the impression sometimes that "you guys" think that every Christian on this board who is NOT always talking about sin, and God's wrath, is that false angel of light. You act like you're filling in the gaps left by people like Libertarian, Polycarp, Triskadekamus. They talk about Love and rarely mention sin/wrath/hell/damnation; you have a tendency to pipe up with the "other side of the story" as though all this talk about Love is mere half-truths. In your view, you supply the Full Truth, which has a heavy emphasis on Sin and Hell. In my view, you're unsatisfied if somebody, somewhere, isn't quaking with fear of Hell, and you're quicker to supply that fear - or try to - than you are at supplying any more concrete form of Love.

It's as though "Love" means, to you, "God, and Hell, and Sin, and Keeping the Law, and Walking in Righteousness". You want to talk about the scary stuff that happens to the wicked; others are too busy talking about God.

I'm avoiding picking on H4E because she's not in this thread, but she said, not too long ago, that discussion about Love is well taken care of by others; since there's not enough discussion of Sin, she feels it's her duty to always bring up the other side of the story.

MAYBE, just maybe, the Bible-believing camp knows something about Hell and wrath and damnation that Polycarp, etc. do not know about. MAYBE their omission in some measure justifies your amendment.

But do you not see the result? We have one group of people who talk about nothing but Love. Another group talks about nothing but Sin. Both might be in error - in fact, both are GUARANTEED to be in some error, being short of the perfection of God.

But which method is more pleasing to God? Which method results in more souls coming to the Lord? What motivates "the Polycarp crew" and what motivates you? (I don't know the answer to these questions, but I think they deserve asking.)

I believe God convicts people of sin in their hearts. I believe he doesn't need deputies to help him do this. Just my opinion.

[Joe_Cool]

Originally posted by Homebrew
Please provide a cite from this thread where your opinions on Hell were requested? Yet, here you are posting in it.

Sure thing, slick, as soon as you provide a cite from this thread where her opinions on Hell were offered. :rolleyes: Unless I'm mistaken, there are 18 posts in this thread using the word "hell" and only 2 of them belong to Jerseydiamond: 1 saying "That sounds like hell to me" and 1 saying "I talk about hell when asked".

Your ravings might be more compelling if you raved about things that ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE.

:wally

[Liberal]

Masonite

For what it might be worth, there was a thorough discussion of sin, complete with warnings about its consequences, in the Love thread, the thread you said you avoided. I just wanted it to be clear that Tris and I do not avoid the topic or give it short shrift. Love is the facilitation of goodness; sin is the obstruction of goodness. Love and sin are opposites.

[tiny ham]

The problem I have with Joe and JD is that even a sinner is worthy of love. It's one of the first things I learned as a Christian. Jesus didn't eat dinner with the scholars and rabbis all the time, he ate with the prostitutes and the lepers.

I'd love everyone to know the peace and joy I have in Christ, but I'd rather they see how joyful and happy my life is in that Christian walk than WARN them every day that they're on the highway to hell.

J

[Homebrew]

For once, I'm not going to rise to your bait, Joe. You know good and well that this is discussion is not about the word "Hell" itself; but your entire concept of Sin and how us unrepentant Sinners are going to Burn in Hell. Hell is being used as a short-hand for the "you're going to Hell because you're a sinner" attitude you both project.

That said, you contradict yourself. Her whole "That sounds like hell to me" post is most assuredly an opinion on Hell is it not? So you've provided all the Cite needed.

[masonite]

Lib, I'll go check it out again, and I'm sorry if I suggested misinformation regarding your message (or, for that matter, anyone else's). I'm just speaking of general trends, areas of emphasis.

[Liberal]

No harm. No foul. :)

[Demise]

Lib, your Jesus-Jersey post was truely funny.

[More Cowbell]

Masonite

I would suggest reading it. Not only did Lib do a great job of not going over the top, but he put things together quite nicely. I now understand his often used "anthill for a day" statement.

It seriously makes me reconsider the Christianity I left behind.

And then I read posts by the doom and gloom twins and their idiotic sychophant and do not want to be associated with those kind of people in any way, shape or form. Miserable, lowly people who can only feel better by throwing around stones they believe were given to them by divine mandate.

If I wanted to be grouped together with cunts and assholes, I'd get a job at the Oscar Meyer factory. In the meantime, I'm not taking any chances so I'll stay away from the Jersey shore and Christianity as well.

[lynn73]

Originally posted by JerseyDiamond
Also, Lib, do not put words in my mouth!

I will continue to refute any lies you preach, and you can continue to tell people that you love, and most likely they will believe you.
Like the Word of God says, " there will be many false teachers" Jude 1:19--- These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

those who know God, recognize those who speak the truth of God

Jude 1:22-23 Be merciful to those who doubt; {23} snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

I am not going to do this anymore with you. I do not worship love as you do, so there is nothing more to say.

Amen, JerseyDiamond!

[Fenris]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool
Your ravings might be more compelling if you raved about things that ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE.

Hey, Homebrew, welcome to the club! :)

You may not have noticed, but you're the latest recpient of Joe's [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2844648#post2841629"]leitmotif[/url]?

It goes something like this:

Joe makes comment.

Joe gets called on comment.

Joe lies, denying that he said the original comment and claims the poster can't read.

Joe sees evidence posted that shows that A) the poster can, in fact, read and that B) Joe lied when he made the denial.

Joe denies it again, getting progressively nastier until eventually, he pouts.


I can't decide if it's pathetic or cute.

Maybe a little of both.

Fenris

[tiny ham]

I think it was Poly or maybe Lib or MAYbe someone else a few months ago who said something very smart to me:

We are not Christians because we are afraid of burning in hell, but because we find joy and peace in the love of Christ.

And I do my best to show that love continuously to others.

[Wabbit]

I don't know about religion and/or God--I'm not arrogant enough to think that I've got it all figured out.
Something to consider, however: if the primary emotions involved in your version of religion are negative (i.e. fear, hatred, condemnation, etc.) you might want to think about if you're actually working for the other team. You know, the goat guy who runs around poking people with pitchforks and what-not. My personal opinion is that anyone who worships hatred is actually a follower of Satan regardless of how they justify their actions.
Just thought I'd dump some oil on the fire.... ;)

[Edlyn]

Originally posted by His4ever
Amen, JerseyDiamond!

And what was in your hearts when you spoke that? This is so disgustingly sad.

I'm not sure whatelse to say to you, except while contemplating whether I should or not, I realized something: How thankful I am that He brought Home our little grandson, Dawson and because He did, Dawson will never have known or ever be hurt by people like you.

I'm not saying this with any anger or spitefulness. I, too, will pray for you and one day I know you'll understand why.

Tris

My heart smiled when Lib read me your story. :)

[Siege]

His4Ever, please, have a look at the post directly above your last one, not to mention the one by someone who mentioned being a Baptist for 33 years. Can't you see that what you write here is driving people away? I sometimes get the impression that people like you have the attitude, "Fine. We don't want such people to be Christians." I think I know you well enough to know that's not your attitude.

I have a female friend who's very outspoken, dresses like a biker, has quite a few tattoos and frequently wears pagan/new age t-shirts. I get the distinct impression that if she walked into your church dressed like that, or even if you were to meet her somewhere, she would not be welcome. Actually, I admit that people at my old church would be a bit put off by her, but I'm pretty sure they'd at least make an effort to make her feel welcome. She's pagan, and she considers Christians to be a bunch of stuck up, arrogant, holier-than-thou prigs. She knows my religion and she knows me. For me, she'll make an exception to the rule, and part of my particular ministry in this life is to let her and others know that we're not all like that. Judgement? Oh, she knows that by Christian standards she's damned to hell five different ways at least and in her opinion there's nothing she can do about it because Christians won't like her anyway. Why should she embrace something which damns her? She is straight, by the way, so it's not the attitude some Christians have towards homosexuality that damns her, but, I'd guess, the feeling that there's no place for anyone as fun, funky, disrespectable and downright wierd as she is. Actually, when I was a teenager, I also believed Christianity was no place for wierd people who can't conform to save their lives, until a small church showed me otherwise.

By the way, the edited version of devotional you posted Christmas week contained the sentence "He who shows mercy and understanding is a traitor to Christ." in a paragraph all its own. I remember because I found that statement particularly bothersome, yet here you are applauding JerseyDiamond for citing scripture which instructs us to do that very thing. Yes, I see the words "mixed with fear."

CJ

[pepperlandgirl]

I think it's very, very funny that everytime Tris posts, I think to myself "Maybe one day I might believe in God again." Oh, I don't feel like I"m missing out on anything. As a matter of fact, I have never been happier. But still, it's interesting to note that Tris can always make me think that maybe, I'll do it again.
And then I read everybody else's posts and think to myself, "Thank Joss I found my way out of that clusterfuck! No wonder I'm an atheist."
So uh, JD and JC, keep up the good work.

[iampunha]

It appears, for what little it's worth by now, that I spoke too soon.

And it also appears that this thread has gone past the point where those on the "No, show God's Wrath, not His Love!" side listen at all.

What does it take, like 75 or so replies before it becomes yet another "Why can't you try to show more love?" "Because YOU never show God's hate!" trainwreck.

It's almost amusing except for the fact that the very idea of worshipping a God and having such a strong sense of God's Wrath and God's Unholy Mighty Stick of Doom and God's Coming to Get You makes one wonder how much of that love of God is driven by fear instead of ... well, love. And how much of it is driven by the desire to say "HA, I'M SAVED AND YOU'RE NOT! YOU'RE GOING TO SUFFFFFFER!!!!!!! GOTCHA YA!"

:(

[masonite]

I'm growing more disturbed by Jersey's post which His4Ever quoted above.[directed at Lib] I will continue to refute any lies you preachYou accuse him of lying.and you can continue to tell people that you love, and most likely they will believe you.You accuse him of not loving, and deceiving others (intentionally or unintentionally) into believing falsely that Lib loves?Like the Word of God says, " there will be many false teachers"You accuse him of being a false teacher?Jude 1:19--- These are the men who divide youLib divides us?who follow mere natural instinctsLib follows mere natural instincts?[quote]and do not have the Spirit.Lib does not have the Spirit?those who know God, recognize those who speak the truth of GodYou're referring to Lib, excluding him from this, yes?

These are extremely serious charges, I'm sure you're aware.

Sometimes I make generalizations of the sorts of things people say, and I may be inaccurate sometimes. So I want to be perfectly clear: in your opinion, poster Libertarian specifically is a false teacher, does not love, preaches lies, does not know God, and therefore does not recognize those (including yourself) who speak the truth of God?

As I said before, no one's required to post in a particular thread, but if you believe Lib's a false teacher, why aren't you in there in GD, battling his lies in the Love thread?

[Homebrew]

Originally posted by Fenris
Hey, Homebrew, welcome to the club! :) If a man is known by the company he keeps, this is one club I'm proud to be in.

[More Cowbell]

Originally posted by His4ever
Amen, JerseyDiamond!
The sycophant speaks!

You madam are a useless idiot, void of original ideas or insightful commentary. You are the very definition of a parasite (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=parasite), "something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return."

Here is a bible verse for you. Not that I expect it to sink into that closed, shallow, rock-like brain of yours.

Isaiah 32:6
For fools speak folly, and their minds plot iniquity: to practice ungodliness, to utter error concerning the Lord, to leave the craving of the hungry unsatisfied, and to deprive the thirsty of drink.


It should be a rule that everytime one of you fucks speak your vile brand of beliefs, someone comes in and states the "326 Rule". Then all will know that your words are vapid and meaningless and anyone looking for spiritual nourshiment will be left hungry and thirsty.


Which reminds me of another verse
Matthew 25: 41 - 46
Then he will say to those at his left hand, "You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' Then he will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

And before you start jumping up and down about this being proof of "hell", this is part of a parable. Say it with me, p-a-r-a-b-l-e. It's an exagerated story used to illustate a point. It's not to be taken literally, you are supposed to see the meaning behind it. Although people have tried and tried and tried to get you and your ilk [read JC and JD] to see the meaning behind the words, all to no avail. You are all too busy picking up stones while you whisper to each other at the door.

[Triskadecamus]

Pepperlandgirl

Psssst. Hey, little girl. Come here and let me talk with you some more.

You have made my spirit soar! Nothing anyone on this board has ever said to me was a bigger thrill.

Thanks. And I mean the silly joke this post begins with. Any time you want me to, I will happily tell you of the Love Christ has for you, in particular. I will leave the matter of your sins, if any, between you and Him. He's a much nicer guy than I am.

Everyone else move along. We are just talking together. No major philosophy, or theology going on here. Move along.

Tris

[Wearia]

Yeah c'mon people. This thread is about loving and accepting one another. I personally like this idea of heaven. Where all those who accept others are accepted and all those that don't are refused. Tris was just telling us a story about what heaven should be like. But now its turned into yet another religous debate. Now just stop and spread some love you sinners. ;)

[pepperlandgirl]

You have made my spirit soar! Nothing anyone on this board has ever said to me was a bigger thrill.

Well, Triskadecamus, I'm glad I finally told you then. I probably should have said something sooner. Even when I was going through my "I hate all believers" phase last year, I still looked forward to your posts about religion and God. You've never said anything that's made me have anything except respect, admiration, and appreciation for you.




Ok, sorry for hijacking the Pit thread with a lovefest. I'm sure it probably offended a few of you....what with the love and all.

[Polycarp]

I think it's very, very funny that everytime Tris posts, I think to myself "Maybe one day I might believe in God again." Oh, I don't feel like I"m missing out on anything. As a matter of fact, I have never been happier. But still, it's interesting to note that Tris can always make me think that maybe, I'll do it again.
And then I read everybody else's posts and think to myself, "Thank Joss I found my way out of that clusterfuck! No wonder I'm an atheist."
So uh, JD and JC, keep up the good work.

I think I understand why this is true, and I feel very guilty as a result. It's because Tris shows God's love whenever he speaks to the subject of God, one's faith, one's religion, etc. His posts are so clearly the product of a loving spirit that it has the effect it had on you, plg.

I confess that my argumentativeness and desire to show people what's right about my POV have failed to do what Tris does -- and what He does what my Lord commanded us Jesus followers to do -- and said that that is how people would know Him to be whom He claimed to be.

I know the amount of Christian love of which several major participants in this thread are capable -- Lib, Edlyn, CJ, Joe Cool, & Jersey Diamond being particular examples. And it grieves me that what we're exhibiting to the world -- and I include myself in that mix -- is akin to a bunch of fourth graders attempting to argue about who's right.

I'm going to ask the Christians reading this thread to join me in a prayer, adapted from the Anglican tradition but, I think, suitable to any and all of us:

Gracious Father, we pray for the witness of the Christians on this message board. Fill us with all truth, in all truth with all peace. Where our understanding is corrupt, purify it; where it is in error, direct it; where in any thing it is amiss, reform it. Where it is right, strengthen it; where it is in want, provide for it; where it is divided, reunite it; for the sake of Jesus Christ thy Son our Savior. Amen.

[Triskadecamus]

I posted a message here, just a while ago, which the hamster, in his infinite wisdom decided should go to the bit bin. I am very glad he did. God bless you, you little rodent.

Poly

The fact is that there is nothing particularly special about me, aside from a moderate facility with words, and a good text editor. The love you notice is all the Lord's. I do have to remind myself to reread my posts and direct the words to the Lord Himself, if I am speaking of Him. That's where the text editor comes in handy. Delete is a very good function.

So, I speak what passion demands, and delete what love requires. What is left is how my faith makes me feel. This thread has been a mistake. I should never have put it in the pit, and never have named it what I did. I was being clever. Clever is not often a good expression of Christian faith, in my experience. Clever is being me. And believe me, no one wants to be a Triskadecamarian. It's been done. I am absolutely stunned that the Lord wanted one of me. I am sure he doesn't need another one.

But to all my very beloved Dopers, I want you to know that I love you, as does my Lord Jesus, although probably not for the same reasons.

Tris



MODS, please close this thread, it was a mistake. I am sorry.

[Desmostylus]

Originally posted by Triskadecamus
MODS, please close this thread, it was a mistake. I am sorry. It wasn't a mistake, Trisk. I, for one, enjoyed you OP, and got much from it.

Please don't be discouraged. :)

[Siege]

Triskadecamus, please do not ask the mods to close this thread. Your OP was beautiful, and, I would argue, necessary. Yes, a certain amount of darkness has crept into this thread, but that darkness is what we are called to fight. If it were not for Christians like you, as pepperland girl has already told you, some people would continue to think of Christians as "stuck up, arrogant, holier-than-thou prigs," if I can quote myself.

There's a joke I heard sometime ago about how, after Gandhi died, he was shown around heaven. He saw people of all races and religions wandering about happy and content, heard a jam session with Bach, Mozart, and Duke Ellington, and was told that Jesus and Buddha couldn't wait to talk to him. While he was getting the grand tour, however, he noticed a group of people sitting on a hill while walls shimmered about them. "Who are they?" he asked. "Oh," said St. Peter, "those are the Christians. They think they're the only ones here."

I know, I know. Some people I'm sure will accuse me of blasphemy. Quite frankly, at this point, I don't care. I'm tired of people who drive others away from Christianity. I sometimes think they think Christianity should be a country club to which only people like them can belong. They agree that tax collectors and prostitutes became followers of Christ, but they also claim that they left all such attributes behind. An oddball non-Christian, or even this odd-ball Christian could hear that as "Once you become a Christian, you become just like every other Christian and lose that which makes you unique and special." Stepford Christians, anyone?

Good luck, and don't give up, my friend. We need you, badly.
CJ

[coosa]

Triskadecamus, I'm an athiest and I appreciated the ideals behind your OP. Posts such as yours (and Polycarp and cjhoworth, among others) remind me to be tolerant of religious believers because some of them are good, kind, loving people.

Joe_Cool, Jersey Diamond, and His4Ever, however, remind me of why I'm generally hostile towards religion and hope to see its influence gradually disappear from the face of the earth.

If I may quote one of my favorite brilliant minds:

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
~Albert Einstein

[Gyrate]

IANA Bible scholar, but I would have thought that this...
Jude 1:22-23 Be merciful to those who doubt; {23} snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. ...was effectively negated by the parable of the Good Samaritan, in that Jesus clearly indicates that those who left the poor unfortunate traveller in the ditch in order to avoid soiling themselves were not acting as God wished.

But then, from the Bible's point of view, we're all sinners in one way or another ("For all have sinned and fallen short yadda yadda yadda"), so arguing degrees of unworthiness seems to me to be missing the point. It also seems to be missing the point of the parable (if I can get through the crowd around this dead horse and take a few whacks myself), which (IMHO) is not whether or not Heaven is for "faggots, Jews, drunks, etc.", but whether it is for those who abandon those in need for their own selfish ends. I seem to recall that Jesus was kinda big on compassion.

And finally, to repeat a phrase I heard somewhere or other: Jesus only guaranteed a place in Heaven to one person -- and he was a convicted criminal. Something to think about.

[Liberal]

Jesus, too, was a convicted criminal. More food for thought. ;)

[sugaree]

Originally posted by Triskadecamus
MODS, please close this thread, it was a mistake. I am sorry.

Tris, I read the OP and copied and pasted it into my small file of Tris stories (you don't mind, do you?). Today, I read the rest of the thread. Now I am going to completely forget the rest of the thread, both what I agree and disagree with, and just remember the OP.

It wasn't a mistake. And thanks.

[Profane]

I'd also like to say thanks to Tris for posting the OP. I wish there were more Christians like you (and Poly, Lib, Jar, Masonite etc.)

My sister joined a church a few years ago, and I was worried she was going to turn into one of "those" Christians. You've helped me realize you're not all like that, and reminded me what Jesus' true message was. I'll never be a believer, but I will always admire him and what he stood for. Thanks to you all.

[iampunha]

"If the majority of Christians were like Poly and Tris, I wouldn't mind being one."-fizzzzzy (she's been drinking a lot of soda lately)

Hoping I get this in before (if? One can hope they do not) this thread gets closed:

Poly, you exhibit one aspect of God's love. Tris exhibits another kind, or he exhibits it in a different way, or something (I happen to think that the idea that God has a finite number of ways in which he can love is rather silly. Just because we only have X words for it doesn't mean there aren't more). Neither of you is going to do exactly as God wants all the time because of this little bug in v. 1.0 of Human Being: "imperfection". But what if I told you that I've thought to myself (though I never really felt any sort of calling to say it here, or I don't remember doing so) "Polycarp is one of the few Christians on here who gives me hope for the rest of them."

There's a whole lot of bad in this world, and even on this board of late. You, Poly, you're a whole lot of good. You may not think it, but I promise you are.

[UncleBeer]

MODS, please close this thread
Gladly.

[Liberal]

Is it a miracle? :D