It's the National Anthem! Show some respect!

[Rilchiam]

Friend gave this rant today during the Super Bowl, and asked me to post it. So here it is.

"If I were an NFL coach, I would tell every fucking player that when the national anthem is being performed, they should stand still with their hands on their hearts and looking at the flag. It takes ONE MINUTE for that song to be sung...well, two minutes if they're a show-off...BUT THAT'S IT! You can stand still for that long and show some fucking respect! Don't let me see you banging your fists together and getting your game face on! Did you forget everything about patriotism as soon as 9/11 was a year in the past?!"

[I can't believe that's butter!]

I agree, assuming all the players are American. In any case, standing still should be called for.

[Flutterby]

Even if the players aren't American, it's just good to stand still and be respectful.

Flutterby, a Canadian who stands still for other countries anthems.

[Kaje]

(got knocked off while trying to post this earlier... let's try again...)

i thought i'd shaken my sdmb addiction years ago, yet here i am at [5:45] posting....

I don't have any problem with a coach enforcing this sort of rule...

I do think it's silly in general to judge someone's patriotism by whether or not they stand still for the national anthem. Maybe we should pay a little more attention to the actions that actually make a difference instead of the superficial ones (that said, I suppose players making this gesture in the country's most widely watched evening of television could legimitately be considered an important matter of national pride, which is probably worth reinforcing).

I like that you made mention of the reduction in overt acts of patriotism since the fervor that followed 9/11... however I found all of these acts to be amusing at best... entirely counterfeit at worst, and had no potential to serve a long-term positive role. In retrospect (or not) all they did was allow a government to take some questionable actions, leading up to our current global predicament.... but that's another story altogether...

Like I said, in this case given that you're saying the coaches should have enforced it and the significance of the particular citizens involved (as one who thought Charles Barkley's 'i'm not a role model' bullshit was just that) I think this rebuke is justified. I don't, however, think it can be broadly applied to the rest of the populace (not that you did in this post)

[Gyrate]

I'm not overly patriotic, but I agree with the rant. A little decorum won't kill you.

It's always great fun to watch international sports matches and see how well the players know their own national anthems during the inevitable camera pan. Some sing enthusiastically, a few just stand there stupidly, and most sort of mumble and try not to look like complete idiots.

AFAIK, Americans are the only ones who put their hands on their hearts, though. Anyone know of any other cases?

[Kaje]

Originally posted by jr8
AFAIK, Americans are the only ones who put their hands on their hearts, though. Anyone know of any other cases?

we're also the only ones (that i know of) who say a pledge of allegiance... it seems entirely natural to most of us but just try explaining it to a european

[Gyrate]

Most Europeans I know have no trouble comprehending American jingoistic rituals. It fits in nicely with their general worldview of Americans.

[Kaje]

good point

[flodnak]

I'm with Flutterby. When a national anthem is played, it doesn't matter if it's your country or not, you stand quietly and show some respect. It's just good manners.

[cadolphin]

Ditto. I don't care what country...It's just good manners.

[Harborwolf]

I'm down with the "doesn't matter if you move" crowd. Some people just can't stand still, so they twitch a bit. Personally, if I were going to go on television and let a bunch of really big ad aggressive guys run into, through, and over me. I'd be a bit twitchy too.

[TwistofFate]

If you think standing still is hard to do, you should see (or rather, hear) what happens Every time The Irish National Anthem is played at a sporting occasion.

Normally, It starts off well, and the sound of a large crowd singing it is incredible (especially at All Ireland finals day when there is 80,000 people singing it), but one thing spoils it for me.

I’ve played the anthem at every big stadium in Ireland and every backwater pitch that can hold a county final (and a few that can’t) and it happened at every place, AFAICR.

The Anthem runs for about 1 minute 30 seconds.

What happens is this.

The crowd starts cheering before the end.

The second last line builds up with a big crescendo, before the final line (“Seo libh chanaigh Amhrainn na bFiann”) however, this line is now drowned out by people shouting and screaming. Its not like its too hard to wait the extra 4 seconds until the anthem is finished.

The cheering and shouting gets earlier and earlier every year. Soon, the Anthem will be “YARRHHHHHHAARRR ‘Mon Ireland!” WHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! The Lad’s!!” and that’s it.

Its not much, but If you’re out at an event supporting your country, the least you could do is honour its Anthem.

[Flutterby]

I don't mind twitching and some shifting and whatnot. Not even I can stand completely still. What I mean is the stretching, the scratching of armpits etc.. I've seen hockey players (the goalie) half stretching while the anthem is playing and making sure his gear is on right. Shouldn't it be on right before he is on the ice???

If you have to shift back and forth on your feet or twitch or whatever a little that's cool. But at least make a semblence of paying attention rather then looking like you are checking if you put the deoderant on today.

[FisherQueen]

I noticed that many of the players were standing respectfully still, their hands on their hearts, while "God Bless America" was played before the national anthem.

Maybe the poor lads just got confused. Too many blows to the head and all. You don't expect them to know which song their national anthem actually is, do you?

[everton]

Originally posted by jr8
AFAIK, Americans are the only ones who put their hands on their hearts, though. Anyone know of any other cases?
I vaguely recall the Brazilians doing it at the last World Cup. Don't quote me though - I tend to use national anthems for that last pre-kick-off beer run.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I totally disagree with the OP. What kind of fascist, jingoistic bullshit is that? A coach would have no legal authority to do that in the first place. They're not in the army and they're not in fucking school. You can't coerce patriotism, and patriotism is no virtue anyway. Personally, I don't even stand up for the anthem at ball games, it's not a ritual that I care to participate in.

Why do we have to play the anthem at sporting events anyway? What purpose does it serve? And, as if that's not bad enough, now we have to endure the execrable "God Bless America," which combines mindless jingoism with mindless religion. I mean, think about it. Are we supposed to believe that God has some special, exclusive love for America? What a load of crap.

[everton]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Why do we have to play the anthem at sporting events anyway?
They only play national anthems at international games over here, but since the Bucs claimed to have been crowned World Champions yesterday it seems we were all included whether we liked it or not.

[Zoff]

I'm of the opinion there's no real need for a national anthem befor a game. But since it's played I think people should generally try to be as respectful as possible for the national anthem. I do understand some shifting about to stay warmed up. It might seem like a little thing, but especially for a hockey goalie he's really just trying to stay loose.

A coach would have no legal authority to do that in the first place.

A coach is perfectly free to say "Show some respect" just as he's free to say "If you throw one more fucking interception I'll bench your ass." What on earth would make you think telling somebody to calm down isn't legal?

[Mr. Moto]

Originally posted by TwistofFate
What happens is this.

The crowd starts cheering before the end.

In my hometown, we cheered at the end. I think I was seven or eight years old before I realized the last three words of the national anthem were "let's go Steelers!"

Americans should consider themselves lucky. I've been present for colors ceremonies and an Arlington Cemetery wreath-laying ceremony involving Argentine military personnel. I believe the Argentine national anthem clocks in at about fifteen minutes.

[Kaje]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
A coach would have no legal authority to do that in the first place.
I really don't know the details as to the demands a coach in the pros can legally place on his players, but it seems like they've been able to make or break players based on character issues in the past... If you don't want your player acting a certain way or being involved in certain things even if they aren't illegal haven't the higherups in the organization given you the permission to do something about it? If they haven't, I would certainly assume THEY can do something about it.

I think the nature of a pro sports player is symbolic and one of representation in the minds of a lot of people, and I can't imagine there would be a reason why a coach or other more authoritative member of a team couldn't make a social or political decision to require his players to respect the national anthem

I realize this could get tricky as it might spill into employees of any company, but I do think there is an appreciable, objective difference (and it isn't just the salary)...

[JRDelirious]

Originally posted by jr8

AFAIK, Americans are the only ones who put their hands on their hearts, though. Anyone know of any other cases?

The Mexican teams (at least at World Cup soccer events) use a more rigid kind of salute, with the hand/forearm held rigidly straight like in the military salute, but horizontally across the chest.


And yes, a coach can tell his players to behave themselves with decorum. Then it's up to them to do so or not. Sure, he has no "legal authority" to slap them in leg irons for it, but still, Have you got a ferret down your pants, Podkawzyski?!? Quiet down!!" is perfectly acceptable.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

If it comes right down to it, a superstar player is more important to a team than some self-righteous orders from a coach. What are you gonna do, cut Michael Jordan if he doesn't want to put his fucking hand over his heart for some mindless, retarded anthem? Sports is a business. The players are money. No team is going to slit its own throat to make some meaningless point about patriotism.

[Flutterby]

Originally posted by Zoff
It might seem like a little thing, but especially for a hockey goalie he's really just trying to stay loose.


I realize they have to stay loose and such. It's just he seemed to be moving around to much to me. Ah well I'm not a hockey player so I don't know really.

[Kaje]

That depends just how meaningless the point seems to them. The owners of a the Hobby Lobby chain forbid any of their stores to open on Sundays for obvious religious reasons... It's reasonable to suppose that sunday could be their busiest day of the week since many people don't have to work, and they could stand to make a lot of money if they didn't self-impose this rule. However they apparently believe that some things are more important than money, and are willing to prove it.

A team could act in the same way. If the bad PR from their unpatriotic superstar began actually cutting into their revenue, this might also lead to a dismissal. I know there are controversial superstars out there who seem to be able to do whatever the hell they want... but if a large enough group was offended enough by his actions, I'm guessing they can do something about it.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

A team could act in the same way. If the bad PR from their unpatriotic superstar began actually cutting into their revenue, this might also lead to a dismissal. I know there are controversial superstars out there who seem to be able to do whatever the hell they want... but if a large enough group was offended enough by his actions, I'm guessing they can do something about it.
This would be true if a player were truly doing something which was flagrantly disrespectful or distracting, but we're just talking about a little nervous, pre-game fidgeting.

[MSU 1978]

While we're talking about anthems I'd like to vent my personal peeve- it's the ugly Americanism that the American sports networks display during baseball's All-Star game. It used to be that they'd show both the Canadian and American anthems on television before the game- but for the last several years they have taken the opportunity during the Canadian anthem to squeeze in more commercials. This was particularly galling during the 2002 game- our good Canadian neighbors help us in the war on terror, they get killed accidentally by our bombs, but it's too much to ask of US television to give two minutes to the Canadian anthem.

[RickJay]

I would agree that anthems really have no place at sporting events. It's a sport, not a military parade. But once it's being played, it's polite to stand still.

[manwithaplan]

Originally posted by TwistofFate
If you think standing still is hard to do, you should see (or rather, hear) what happens Every time The Irish National Anthem is played at a sporting occasion...
...The crowd starts cheering before the end.


This annoys me too. The one exception I have seen is when I was at a game in Casement Park in Belfast and they announced before the anthem was played that it was customary to wait for the end before cheering. There was absolute silence throughout but the guys collecting for "prisoner's wives" (this was about 1994) might have had something to do with that;).

I'm not sure, however, if it's necessary to play the anthem at every inter-county game. It would probably be sufficient just to play it at all-Ireland finals (and maybe provincial finals). What does drive me mad is pub bands/DJs playing the anthem at the end of the night. I know it's just a convenient way to tell everyone to piss off home but it's a bit inappropriate.

[Ethilrist]

I was walking with my kids one afternoon when we passed a business of some sort that had a flagpole out front. Somebody walked out of the building and started taking down the American flag, and I stopped. My kids were like, "What? Why are we stopping?" and I shushed them and pointed at the flag coming down, and said that you're supposed to stop whenever somebody does a flag ceremony, even if it's at a gas station. They thought that was kind of weird. Tough.

[Kaje]

damn ethil... I'd be embarassed as hell if my parents did that

It's cool though if that's the way you show your respect... just so long as you don't get angry with people who choose not to (not that you do)

[TwistofFate]

I'm not sure, however, if it's necessary to play the anthem at every inter-county game. It would probably be sufficient just to play it at all-Ireland finals (and maybe provincial finals).

As someone who has been in an organisation that has been at the recieving end of countless GAA "recommendations" It is pretty much Par for the course, unless the place the game is at doesnt have facilities to perform the anthem.

the GAA see's Gaelic Games as an integral part of Irish culture, and enshrouds pride in tradition as part of its core teachings. It tries to make every match the same as an All Ireland, and I've played at a fair share of county club finals where this was the feeling. Then again, wether it was us, or the Tallagh youth band, or St. Concepta's tin whistle and clod hopper youth fellowship it didn't make a difference. Both teams got a parade of the Teams and the fans got the treatment the all Ireland teams would get, and everyone would stand and sing the anthem. It was this pride in the tradition and occasion of the game that I loved about playing at.

I suppose national sporting events should give a reflection of the values national identity should reflect in people. Teamwork, understanding, the products of talent, or even just the products of effort.

The danger is when it becomes overblown. How much is the spectacle of the show overtaking what the show itself stands for?
One of the great things about an All Ireland day is the simplicity of it. It includes the tradition but dosen't remove the focus from the game itself.

But then again, the Superbowl is one long spectacle. All the stops are pulled out, and it is a 4 hour long Spectacle of Grandiose. I don't think that a Superbowl could get away with the one legged Celtic Tenor on a wooden platform singing The Boys from the County Armagh while the Boys and Girls under 12's display matches are taking part either side of him, and Machnas are throwing giant inflatable Guinness Sponsored sliotars into the crowd as a half time show. Somehow, the GAA gets away with it every year. Perhaps because no one really minds what happens at half time, as long as they get a cup of tea. and a piss. And a programme.

[Mangetout]

Of course it's good manners, but America is a country where personal freedom is very highly valued, so good manners are optional.

[Gorgon Heap]

Ouch.

[Bricker]

Why would you be embarassed as hell, Kaje?

[zuma]

Ditto with the standing still is good manners. As far as hands on the heart, that's a bit opional I think. Was anyone in the super bowl picking their nose or scratching their crotch, or something?

Also, this really shocked me:

"While we're talking about anthems I'd like to vent my personal peeve- it's the ugly Americanism that the American sports networks display during baseball's All-Star game. It used to be that they'd show both the Canadian and American anthems on television before the game- but for the last several years they have taken the opportunity during the Canadian anthem to squeeze in more commercials. This was particularly galling during the 2002 game- our good Canadian neighbors help us in the war on terror, they get killed accidentally by our bombs, but it's too much to ask of US television to give two minutes to the Canadian anthem."

Is this actually true? are the networks cutting to commercials during the Canadian national anthem? I'll be looking for this next year... If this is true, it is truly disgusting.

[Spavined Gelding]

Well, I know it's a real pain for these over-paid sociopaths and the fanatics in the stands to stand still and shut up for a minute or two while some teenie bopper beats the National Anthem into submission. If you want real fun try going to a NATO parade--you can stand out in the middle of a gravel field and high ball for the German, French, British, Danish, Dutch, Spanish, Norwegian, Greek, Turkish, US and God alone knows what else national anthem, player one after another. After a while they all dissolve into one big heroic trumpet voluntary.

[Kallessa]

Starting to cheer and yell before the end of the National Anthem has long been a pet peeve of mine. Granted, I don't know why we play the National Anthem before sporting events--buried in our cultural history somewhere--but it is played, and even for those of us that think the U.S. could choose a better song as an Anthem, it isthe National Anthem and we should show respect for our country by respecting our designated song. Not that the song is sacred or if you shift around during it or don't know the words you're not a patriotic citizen, but screaming prior to the ending of the song is just stupid, and disrespectful.

TwistofFate, I'm somewhat relieved to find this behavior isn't limited to Americans--it's so good to have companions in boorishness.

[Sunshine]

I agree with the OP. If the anthem's playing, the anthem of ANY country, you stand still and show some respect. I like the tradition of playing our national anthem before ball games but I don't find it necessary. But, IF it's playing, hold still and be respectful.

A little nervous pre-game fidgeting is barely acceptable to me, but some of what they showed at the Super Bowl included jogging in place, banging fists together, talking to themselves, etc. I'm sorry, but it's not like the moment the song is finished they're bursting into action and need to stay loose. They have to do the whole coin toss business and all but 22 of them are going to go stand on the sidelines anyway. There is absolutely NO reason every single one of them cannot stand there either with their hand on their heart or with their hands clasped respectfully for two minutes. NO REASON.

[mhendo]

I always think it's funny when lliberty-loving Americans start telling other people what they should be doing during the national anthem. Surely if you believe in the personal freedom that your flag and anthem allegedly represent, you should do what you want to do during the anthem, and leave other people's behaviour up to them?

I've never been a big fan of national anthems, no matter what the country. I certainly see no particular need to play them before sporting events. In Australia, where i'm from, they're generally only played before international matches, and then the anthems of both competing countries are played.

In the US, where i now live, the Star-Spangled Banner is played before every damn game. Christ, i even live in the city where the lyrics to the song were written, and don't think that i'll be allowed to forget that anytime soon.

When i attend sporting events where anthems are played, whether in the US or not, i behave the same way each time. If i'm in my seat, i stay in my seat and sit quietly while the anthem is played. In this way, i can register my desire not to stand while at the same time not making any noise or commotion that disturbs those who wish to stand and listen. And i'm generally not the only person doing this. I always see others (who are not disabled) sitting during the anthem. If you have a problem with me sitting rather than standing, then fuck you with a five dollar ballpark hotdog.

Speaking of hotdogs, a good way to avoid the issue altogether is to be out the back buying food when the anthem is played, because capitalism stops for nothing and no-one. A few of the ballpark employees seem to want to stop and pay their respects, but for the most part i've found that orders are still taken during the anthem.

And maybe i'll take this opportunity for a small rant of my own about the singing of the Star-Spangled Banner. It has always been my understanding that a country's anthem was designed to bring people together, to give them a sense of a shared experience as citizens of the same nation. In other countries where i have watched sporting events live (Australia, England, and Canada) or seen sporting events on TV (various countries throughout the world) the anthem is generally sung by everyone in the stadium, and the sound of all those voices together is rousing and rather emotional, and provides a sense of doing something together.

In the United States, by contrast, the singing of the anthem seems to be little more than an opportunity for some over-rated pop star to show off his or her vocal range. The level of improvisation, with long screaming notes and much warbling, takes no account of the proper rhythm or meter of the song and shows no consideration for those in the audience who might like to join in. So much for a democratic anthem in a democratic country.

[Dumbguy]

Originally posted by Sunshine
There is absolutely NO reason every single one of them cannot stand there either with their hand on their heart or with their hands clasped respectfully for two minutes. NO REASON. When you play in the Super Bowl, make sure you set a good example for those animals.

[An Arky]

IMO, standing still for any national anthem is respectful and nice, but not required.

An anecdote from my youth:

I was in marching band, and we were out on the field, practicing the national anthem. We had a fundie football coach, who was leading practice on an adjacent field. He made his players stop what they were doing, face the band and put their hands on their hearts. Meanwhile, since the band was rehearsing the song, the band director would cut us off and offer some constructive criticism (hey Smith, you're flat and it sounds like shit!), then restart the band. This went on for twenty minutes or so. The band director caught on to what the coach was doing, and being a non-fundie, he waited until the players were in the middle of wind sprints or dipsy doodles or whatever, then get us to strike up the anthem for a few seconds, then stop. The coach, having the mental capacity inherent to fundies, never caught on...:D

[asterion]

Damn, here I was thinking this was gonna be a rant about all the shitty renditions I've heard by overpaid "stars." I still say the last good performance I heard was by a Marine at Bush's inauguration.

[Zoff]

Originally posted by Obsidian Flutterby
I realize they have to stay loose and such. It's just he seemed to be moving around to much to me.

Yeah, there's not much need for a full stretching exercise. I was talking about when they shuffle their skates back and forth during the anthem(s).

Originally posted by mhendo
I always think it's funny when lliberty-loving Americans start telling other people what they should be doing during the national anthem. Surely if you believe in the personal freedom that your flag and anthem allegedly represent, you should do what you want to do during the anthem, and leave other people's behaviour up to them?

Perhaps you can take a moment from delighting in this alleged irony and explain to me exactly what part of expressing opinions on appropriate social behavior is violative of personal freedom.

[Sunshine]

Originally posted by Dumbguy
When you play in the Super Bowl, make sure you set a good example for those animals.

Should I ever get that chance, I will.

But in all seriousness...can you give me a good reason why they can't all just stand there quietly and respectfully? Like I said, it's not as if they are charging into battle the very second the last note is sung. They're gonna have a few minutes in which to loosen up after the anthem is over.

And, to agree with mhendo...I don't object to people not standing for the anthem. If you choose not to stand, that is your choice and I will not be offended. The thing that bugs me is people chatting, looking around, moving around, etc. If they just sit quietly, I'm cool. And I do get the irony of it. But I guess I feel that there's a difference between being respectful and feeling as if your personal freedom is being violated by showing respect during the anthem of the country that gives you that freedom.

Also, I agree HEARTILY with your rant about how the anthem is sung. I much prefer when it is led by a regular joe who won't put all sorts of "stylings" into it so the whole crowd can sing along. Nothing gets me like 70,000 people all singing the anthem together. That's what it's for, not for us to hear how high-pitched Mariah Carey can screech. Blecch. Give me a choir any day.

[Dumbguy]

Originally posted by Sunshine
There is absolutely NO reason every single one of them cannot stand there either with their hand on their heart or with their hands clasped respectfully for two minutes. NO REASON. When you play in the Super Bowl, make sure you set a good example for those animals.

[Dumbguy]

Crap. Almost made it three years without a double post. Apparently, I suck after all.

[Bricker]

I don't know much about the Amish.

For example, I don't know if the wearing of somber, dark clothes is an actual rule, or merely long-standing tradition.

But I do know that if an Amish man decided to go out one morning dressed in a bright orange shirt, polka-dotted tie, and baggy yellow parachute pants, he'd be making a strong statement. Because there's an expectation that all Amish dress similarly, his choice of clothes would be a way to say, without words, that he was distancing himself from the group - that in essence, he was choosing to set himself apart from the rest, and he wanted anyone who looked at him to know it.

So, too, do I believe that those Americans who choose to sit during the national anthem are making a statement. They are saying, in essence, that they are not a part of this group.

Of course, it's unclear which group they mean, and what the reasons are for the separation. One person may believe that the US government system is awful and should be violently overthrown; another may simply dislike the group-think aspect of everyone standing.

I stand during the anthem, with hand over heart, unless I'm in K of C regalia, in which case, I render either a hand or sword salute. I do this because it's a way to symbolize my respect for the flag and the country.

It doesn't mean that those who don't do it lack that respect, of course.

- Rick

[mhendo]

Originally posted by Zoff
Perhaps you can take a moment from delighting in this alleged irony and explain to me exactly what part of expressing opinions on appropriate social behavior is violative of personal freedom. Well, maybe i overstated the case somewhat, because no-one here has actually expressed a desire to physically force people to stand.

Still. who's to say what's "appropriate social behavior"? You think that it includes standing for the anthem; i think it includes sitting for the anthem but not disturbing other people; some apparently think it includes stretching and warming up. In a situation where so many opinions seem to exist, why not let each person do his or her own thing? There's no reason that someone sitting down, or some football player fidgeting around should lessen your respect for the anthem.

And, whether it involves force or not, the notion of dictating what others should do when it has so little effect on you is rather ridiculous, IMO. If you want to stand and put your hand over your heart, by all means go right ahead; i've never suggested that you shouldn't. But if you, like the person quoted in the OP, tell me that i "should stand still with [my] hand on [my] heart and looking at the flag," then don't be surprised if i tell you to go fuck yourself.

Personally, as i suggested in my last post, and as asterion implied, i think the people showing the most disrespect to the anthem and its purpose is the idiot entertainers who sing it. I've never heard a song so mutilated and distorted by a bunch of overpaid egomaniacs.

[Zoff]

Originally posted by mhendo
who's to say what's "appropriate social behavior"? You think that it includes standing for the anthem; i think it includes sitting for the anthem but not disturbing other people;

Yes, those are our respective opinions as I stated in my post.

I don't care what you do during the national anthem. I was responding to your claim of an abridgement of liberty because somebody posted an opinion on a message board (though, in fairness, yours was less extreme than the cry of fascism and claim that the coach has no legal right to tell his players to pay attention.)

People have opinions on how people should act in public. It's fine if you don't agree, but the expression of an opinion isn't an inherently unreasonable thing.

[Zoff]

Well, that came off a lot snippier than I intended, mhendo. I tend to respond when people make spurious claims to rights being trampled, so I replied to you. But I think we generally agree. I don't care what people do during an anthem.

Between hockey and international soccer, I've been to a pretty good number of games where multiple national anthems have been played. When I saw Mexico and Italy play in the World Cup, for instance, I stood for their national anthems because I believe it's a sign of respect for Italians and Mexicans.

Now, you probably don't agree with that and that's fine. But expressing an opinion isn't necessarily ridiculous. The OP thinks athletes should stand still out of respect. It's hardly an overbearing request by a person too blinded by patriotism to see the other side. It's an opinion in a non-threatening medium, that's all.

[brad_d]

Actually, sales of concessions and other goodies do cease during the national anthem at many venues I've visited recently. Sun Devil Stadium (Arizona Cardinals) and Anaheim Stadium (Anaheim Angels) come to mind immediately.

At Anaheim, ticket-taking at the gates stops, as well.

I don't understand why some folks are attempting to equate standing still during the national anthem with patriotism - that's a hell of a logical leap, to me. I regard it as politeness.

[ladyfoxfyre]

[quote]Originally posted by jr8
AFAIK, Americans are the only ones who put their hands on their hearts, though. Anyone know of any other cases?
[eddie izzard]
"You and the Romans are the only ones who put their hands over their hearts....you are the next roman empire. There's nobody else going! So you've got vomitoriums and orgies to look forward too. Let the president lead the way!"
[/eddie izzard]

[Gyrate]

Originally posted by Bricker
Of course, it's unclear which group they mean, and what the reasons are for the separation. One person may believe that the US government system is awful and should be violently overthrown; another may simply dislike the group-think aspect of everyone standing. On that note, and for the latter reason, I stay seated for the Hallelujah Chorus (it's a little late to violently overthrow Handel, after all). And people give me funny looks for that.

National anthems are representative of a country and, by extension, the people of that country. If I stand politely for, say, the Mexican anthem, I do so out of courtesy and respect for those to whom that anthem is signficant (i.e. Mexicans), and hope that they will pay me the same courtesy when the US anthem is played. The "standing still" thing is because you're supposed to be paying attention to (and possibly singing) the anthem instead of serving hotdogs or whatever. As I said before, a little decorum won't kill you. Decorum is better served by staying in your damn seat.

OTOH, people stand for the HC because everyone else does, and everyone else does because apparently George II did. And frankly, George II having a leg cramp is not IMO a good reason to block the view of the concertgoers behind you.

[mhendo]

Originally posted by Zoff
Well, that came off a lot snippier than I intended, mhendo. I tend to respond when people make spurious claims to rights being trampled, so I replied to you. But I think we generally agree. I don't care what people do during an anthem.

Between hockey and international soccer, I've been to a pretty good number of games where multiple national anthems have been played. When I saw Mexico and Italy play in the World Cup, for instance, I stood for their national anthems because I believe it's a sign of respect for Italians and Mexicans.

Now, you probably don't agree with that and that's fine. But expressing an opinion isn't necessarily ridiculous. The OP thinks athletes should stand still out of respect. It's hardly an overbearing request by a person too blinded by patriotism to see the other side. It's an opinion in a non-threatening medium, that's all. You're right, we do agree on most things.

There are people who disagree with my decision to sit but respect my right to do so - i have no quarrel at all with them. There are others who disagree with my decision to sit and do not respect my right to do so, and tell me i should be standing - those people can lick my chocolate starfish.

And i never really thought that my rights or anyone else's were being trampled by the opinons on this board. The expression of an opinion is never, by definition, the same as depriving someone of their rights. I suppose my position is that, in cases like this where someone else's decision to stand or sit has no direct bearing on anyone but themselves, it is in the spirit of America's freedom-loving reputation to let them do what they think is best. Even the fidgeting of the athletes that the OP got so exercised about should have no effect on whether the OP is able to show respect for the anthem. I think the person quoted in the OP needs to worry less about what others are doing and instead worry about his or her own response to the anthem.

[Tsubaki]

mhendo, I'm genuinely curious to know WHY you don't stand for the national anthem. I find it odd, but if I knew your reasons it may make more sense to me.

[mhendo]

Originally posted by Tsubaki
mhendo, I'm genuinely curious to know WHY you don't stand for the national anthem. I find it odd, but if I knew your reasons it may make more sense to me. Well, it's mainly a personal (and, i concede, largely ineffectual) protest against the sort of excessive nationalism that anthems tend to reinforce, particularly in countries like the US and Australia, where i'm originally from.

The anger and hostility displayed by some people towards those who don't stand is, it seems to me, pretty good evidence of the excessive deference to symbols of authority shown by certain sections of the population.

People say that standing is a sign of respect. Well, put simply, i don't stand because i don't have a great deal of respect for the relatively abstract concept that anthems tends to represent. I don't respect "the United States" or "Australia," because to me such a concept tends to imply unconditional support. I respect certain people and organizations and ideals and actions within those countries, and i dislike intensely other people and organizations and ideals and actions. I feel no need to participate in a ritual that, to my mind at least, reinforces a veneer of unity while glossing over important and problematic divisions.

I'm quite aware that my personal attitude to anthems is just that - a personal one. I don't expect other people to see things the same way i do. Plenty of people stand up for plenty of good reasons. I respect their decision to do so, and when anthems are playing i stay seated and quiet so they can pay their respects.

The closest analogy i can think of is a religious one. I'm an atheist, and if i happen to be visiting a Christian household where a prayer is said before meals i will sit quietly and wait for the prayer to finish. I will not, however, bow my head, close my eyes, pretend i am praying, or say "Amen," because i prefer to be honest about my beliefs. I will just stay quiet and allow everyone else to pray or not, as they see fit, the same way i sit at the ballpark while others choose to stand.

And finally, off the topic a bit, i reiterate my earlier point that, the way the Star-Spangled Banner is sung at most sporting events, it has lost much of the dignity and the public participation that was meant to accompany an anthem in the first place.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Well said, mhendo. This sums up my sentiments exactly. I'd like to know why anybody eles cares what other people do during the anthem.

[GrizzRich]

Oh please...........
It's a simple matter of respect.
I played football for more years than most people attended school. If anything, the anthem always was part of my pre-game ritual.
I stood at attention, helmet off, hand over heart.
Proudly singing my national anthem.
It helped me get my game-face on.
It helped me get pumped up.
It brought tears to my eyes. Still does.

I also have stood in silent, respectful attention for the anthems of other countries.

I'm in a venue where the National Anthem is played, I still stand at attention, facing the flag, hand over my heart and sing proudly. If a flag is being raised or lowered, I'll stop and stand in respect.

It's the right thing to do.

[mhendo]

Originally posted by GrizzRich
Oh please...........
It's a simple matter of respect.
I played football for more years than most people attended school. If anything, the anthem always was part of my pre-game ritual.
I stood at attention, helmet off, hand over heart.
Proudly singing my national anthem.
It helped me get my game-face on.
It helped me get pumped up.
It brought tears to my eyes. Still does.

I also have stood in silent, respectful attention for the anthems of other countries.

I'm in a venue where the National Anthem is played, I still stand at attention, facing the flag, hand over my heart and sing proudly. If a flag is being raised or lowered, I'll stop and stand in respect.

It's the right thing to do. "Oh please........." what??

I've never derided people for standing during the anthem; you can do whatever you like. I didn't ridicule your rituals, but simply offered an explanation for why i don't do it.

It's flag-and-anthem fundamentalists like you, telling everyone else what is "the right thing to do," who give me the shits. You manage to use "respect" or "respectful" three times, but never say exactly for what or whom you are showing respect.

When i sit quietly while the anthem is being played, in what way am i showing a lack of respect for you and your right to stand and sing with your hand over your heart?

I happen to believe that giving money to the homeless on the street when you have some spare coins is "the right thing to do." But i don't look at everyone who walks by them and pass judgement on those people for not giving. People have their own reasons - important or trivial, it doesn't matter - for doing or not doing things, and i'm not that interested in whether everyone else does things the same way as me or not.

[Apos]

---It's a simple matter of respect.---

I agree. Every time I take a dump, I sing the complete national anthem, and I expect everyone within earshot to stand still, hand over heart, until I'm done. It's simply a matter of respect. Don't let the music stop!

[TwistofFate]

If people don't wish to stand for the anthem, thats ok. Its as valid a statement as standing and singing.

But what if you sat down and started singing "The Camptown Races" at full voice during the anthem? Is that a valid statement or just being a jerk?

If someone who dosent want to observe a ritual thats fine. My truck is with teh people who start to observe the anthem, but cant even last the 1 minute and 20 seconds it takes to finish.

[SenorBeef]

Originally posted by mhendo
I always think it's funny when lliberty-loving Americans start telling other people what they should be doing during the national anthem.

Why? Is the idea of sharing your opinion with another person contradictory to the idea of loving liberty? Does loving liberty mean that you never tell anyone your feelings on anything?

It's not like we were advocating imprisoning them.

[Rider]

Whom does nationalism serve other than governments who need to send their boys off to war from time to time with no good reason? Singing the national anthem merely perpetuates this brainwashing of the masses. Also, the American national anthem is a pretty dire tune. As I recall it is a rehashed old British Army drinking song. The Russian National Anthem, recently reinstated after being dropped after the fall of the USSR...now there's a rousing tune.

[Yong Lee Fampee]

Does anyone remember when Roseanne barr grabbed her balls during the National Anthem? It was during a baseball game, and it was probobly the highlight of the evening.

[Gyrate]

Originally posted by Rider
The Russian National Anthem, recently reinstated after being dropped after the fall of the USSR...now there's a rousing tune. Abso-friggin-lutely -- best national anthem (music-wise) ever. I used to have my computer at work play it when I logged on in the morning (during that brief period I had an office to myself), as it put me in a more productive mood. Sure, the lyrics were the usual dull "we are Russian, we are strong, blah blah blah" stuff that national anthems typically contain, but by golly, it's a great tune.

[Floater]

Originally posted by Rider
Also, the American national anthem is a pretty dire tune. As I recall it is a rehashed old British Army drinking song.
Not army drinking song, but a ditty called To Anacreon in Heaven sung by the members of the Anacreontic Sociey (http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/anacron2.html).

[GrizzRich]

Originally posted by mhendo
"Oh please........." what??

I've never derided people for standing during the anthem; you can do whatever you like. I didn't ridicule your rituals, but simply offered an explanation for why i don't do it.

It's flag-and-anthem fundamentalists like you, telling everyone else what is "the right thing to do," who give me the shits. You manage to use "respect" or "respectful" three times, but never say exactly for what or whom you are showing respect.

When i sit quietly while the anthem is being played, in what way am i showing a lack of respect for you and your right to stand and sing with your hand over your heart?

I happen to believe that giving money to the homeless on the street when you have some spare coins is "the right thing to do." But i don't look at everyone who walks by them and pass judgement on those people for not giving. People have their own reasons - important or trivial, it doesn't matter - for doing or not doing things, and i'm not that interested in whether everyone else does things the same way as me or not.

Before you make any snap-judgements about me, let's get a few things clear...
-I've never derided people for NOT standing during the anthem; you can do whatever you like. I didn't ridicule your non-ritual, but simply offered an explanation for why I DO it. (that looks familiar because I copied it right from your post and changed a few words. Your statement is a valid argument that works just as well for me.)
-About respect. I DID say for what I'm standing in respect. For a flag being raised or lowered; and for the anthems of other countries. If you want a deeper reason, then it's this: People fought and died for the beliefs that those flags and anthems represent. For them, I show that kind of respect. I could go on an on, but that would be too taxing on us all!
-And others (you included). I accused NO ONE of having a lack of respect if they elect to sit through the National Anthem. That I stand at attention, remove my hat, face the flag, hand over heart, sing the National Anthem, etc. That's the way that "I" do it. I never once stated that others should do as I; nor that I hold anyone in less regard if they elect not to.

So, friend-fellow Doper, I hold you in high regard for having the ability to clearly state your ideas and the bravery to stand by them.

If I'm a "flag-and-anthem-fundamentalist", then so be it.
And a dang proud one, too.

[kaylasdad99]

Originally posted by Yong Lee Fampee
Does anyone remember when Roseanne barr grabbed her balls during the National Anthem? It was during a baseball game, and it was probobly the highlight of the evening.
Her WHAT?!?

I know Rosanne has a reputation for, uhh, transcending any image of demure femininity, but I hadn't heard that she had carried it to the point of surgical enhancement.

BTW, it was at a San Diego Padres game, and it resulted in her being the most hated woman in America that week.

And the pop-star-performance of the National Anthem never recovered its image until Whitney Houston at the Super Bowl. Which, JFTR, made me gag.