The Soul of Christ

[Lord Ashtar]

I had a thought which I figured might start some interesting discussion.

Assumptions:

1.) Jesus was God.
2.) Jesus was human.
3.) All humans have a soul.
4.) Jesus had a soul.
5.) God had a soul...or did he?

What happened to His soul for the three days between the first Good Friday and Easter?

Any thoughts?

[Soup_du_jour]

From The Niecine (sp?) CreedFor our sake, He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
He suffered death and was buried.From The Apostles CreedHe suffered under Pontius Pilate.
Was crucified, died, and was buried.
He decended into hell (or decended to the dead)
On the third day, He rose again, in accordance with the Scriptures.Apparently, he died.

According to one of the creeds, his soul "decended into hell," possibly to bear the price of the sins of the world.

Now, I'm no theologean, but that's my opinion on the matter.

[Polycarp]

Nice pickup, Soup. The name of that creed is The Nicene Creed, so called because it was first formally adopted for use throughout the church at the Council of Nicaea in the early 300s CE. It's also found in the traditional form of the Apostles' Creed, though Methodism and churches descended from it, along with I believe several other Protestant churches, drop that line.

Technical usage, by the way, supports a translation of "to the dead" or "to the realm of the dead" rather than "to Hell" -- He is not conceived of as going to the place of eternal torment, but to the Jewish Sheol, with the purpose of freeing and leading into Heaven the dead who had led a righteous life and were confined there by the nature of death as shadowy ghostlike figures who deserved better.

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by Polycarp
Technical usage, by the way, supports a translation of "to the dead" or "to the realm of the dead" rather than "to Hell" -- He is not conceived of as going to the place of eternal torment, but to the Jewish Sheol, with the purpose of freeing and leading into Heaven the dead who had led a righteous life and were confined there by the nature of death as shadowy ghostlike figures who deserved better.

So when Jesus died, he didn't become just another person in Hell?

[Meatros]

Soup_du_jour-I don't know how much truth is behind this claim but in a book I'm reading (Demon Haunted World pg. 92) there is a suggestion that the Apostles Creed is a forgery.

Poly
He is not conceived of as going to the place of eternal torment, but to the Jewish Sheol, with the purpose of freeing and leading into Heaven the dead who had led a righteous life and were confined there by the nature of death as shadowy ghostlike figures who deserved better.

This is interesting. I don't suppose you (or anyone) would know the answer to this, but in this land of the dead-did time exist?

I'm wondering because suppose it didn't; would that mean that future people, who either didn't have a chance to hear the word or rejected it, would have a chance for salvation?


Lord Ashtar-Good question. I don't know if Jesus would have a sole-I mean he wouldn't need it would he? Suppose the God part of him seperated from the human part and went on it's travels (to Sheol), technically I don't think that would be Jesus' "soul"....

:confused:

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Meatros
This is interesting. I don't suppose you (or anyone) would know the answer to this, but in this land of the dead-did time exist?

I'm wondering because suppose it didn't; would that mean that future people, who either didn't have a chance to hear the word or rejected it, would have a chance for salvation?
If I may pick this up for Poly:
Time was the same in Sheol as it was on Earth. Sheol was very similar to the Greco-Roman Hades, in fact, it's really just the Hebrew word for the same sort of underworld.

Ancient Jews believed that the dead were sort housed in an underground holding tank awaiting the final judgment. At that time, God would grant the good people eternal life (on Earth, they did not really have the Christian idea of Heaven, but expected a sort of renewed Eden on earth).

The bad people would be utterly destroyed by fire, there was no eternal punishment, just anihilation.

Christianiaty later refined these initial ideas into what we now now think of as hell. Sheo, originally just a metaphor for death, became a place of eternal punishment. Eternal life was reimagined as eternal bliss in the literal realm of God. Jesus was the judge, and the judgement was now.

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by Meatros
Good question. I don't know if Jesus would have a sole-I mean he wouldn't need it would he? Suppose the God part of him seperated from the human part and went on it's travels (to Sheol), technically I don't think that would be Jesus' "soul"....

:confused:

Now you know how I was feeling last night with this train of thought running through my head!

Basically, I was thinking this: If God created a human version (for lack of a better word) of Himself in Jesus, than in order for Jesus to be completely human He would need a soul. Wouldn't that be the Holy Spirit? I would think that's where the whole idea of the Holy Trinity came from. You have God (as He has always been), Jesus (the human part), and the Holy Ghost (God's soul).

Am I making sense?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Good question. I don't know if Jesus would have a sole-I mean he wouldn't need it would he?
Actually, Jesus needed two soles, one on each sandal. ;)

[Meatros]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
If I may pick this up for Poly:
Time was the same in Sheol as it was on Earth. Sheol was very similar to the Greco-Roman Hades, in fact, it's really just the Hebrew word for the same sort of underworld.

Thanks, that's interesting actually.

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Ancient Jews believed that the dead were sort housed in an underground holding tank awaiting the final judgment. At that time, God would grant the good people eternal life (on Earth, they did not really have the Christian idea of Heaven, but expected a sort of renewed Eden on earth).

So would this "eternal life" be sort of like the modern conception of "ghosts" or were they in physical form?

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
The bad people would be utterly destroyed by fire, there was no eternal punishment, just anihilation.

This actually reminds me more of the ancient Egyption belief, only instead of the whole bad person getting thrown into annihilation, it was the bad part of the person (or at least that's how I understood it).

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Christianiaty later refined these initial ideas into what we now now think of as hell. Sheo, originally just a metaphor for death, became a place of eternal punishment. Eternal life was reimagined as eternal bliss in the literal realm of God. Jesus was the judge, and the judgement was now.

Again interesting. Thanks.

[Meatros]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Actually, Jesus needed two soles, one on each sandal. ;)

Uh....whups...:o

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Meatros
So would this "eternal life" be sort of like the modern conception of "ghosts" or were they in physical form?
Physical form. In fact, it was thought that if a body was burned, or otherwise utterly destroyed after death, that that person could not be resurrected at the judgment. That's why the idea of being cast into the perpetually burning garbage dump of the Hinnon Valley (Gehenna) was so horrifying to them.

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Physical form. In fact, it was thought that if a body was burned, or otherwise utterly destroyed after death, that that person could not be resurrected at the judgment. That's why the idea of being cast into the perpetually burning garbage dump of the Hinnon Valley (Gehenna) was so horrifying to them.

Hence the idea that a person's body must not be desecrated, otherwise they can't rise after Judgement?

I'm thinking of the movie Very Bad Things, where the dorky older brother guy says something about how they can't just take the bodyparts of the two people and throw them in a hole, they have to put them back together or else their souls can't rest in peace.

Or am I going in the totally wrong direction?

[Young Mr. Grace]

I've always thought about it in terms of the old Immortal rules of D&D. An immortal being in his home plane could create and manifest himself into a mortal body. His immortal body would go dormant in his home plane while his "spirit" was traipsing around on the Prime material plane in his new body. In the event that his mortal self (ie Jesus) was killed, his spirit would fly back to his home plane (ie heaven). Unless, of course, his helpless dormant immortal body was attacked and destroyed in the meantime, in which case his spirit would just float around forever. It's a good thing some Mind Flayers or something didn't attack heaven while Jesus was walking around here. Garsh knows where the universe would be now!

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Lord Ashtar
I'm thinking of the movie Very Bad Things, where the dorky older brother guy says something about how they can't just take the bodyparts of the two people and throw them in a hole, they have to put them back together or else their souls can't rest in peace.

Or am I going in the totally wrong direction?
Well, it's not a question of resting in peace, the ancients would have thought that the "spirit" as it were (it's not really equivilent to what we think of as a soul, it was an immaterial, shadowy kind of ghost. It was supposed to be an unpleasant, joyless existence out of the body) would not have been able to reinhabit the destroyed bodies. They would have to be ghosts forever.

[Meatros]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Physical form. In fact, it was thought that if a body was burned, or otherwise utterly destroyed after death, that that person could not be resurrected at the judgment. That's why the idea of being cast into the perpetually burning garbage dump of the Hinnon Valley (Gehenna) was so horrifying to them.

You know, I'm seeing shades of Ancient Egyption beliefs in this; Mummies were wrapped for similar reasons (IIRC); they had, I believe, 3 different spirits. My head is hazy but right now I'm under the impression that the body was sort of like the "home" of all three spirits. That was the reason the ancient egyptions took such painstaking measures to try to ensure physical immortality.

[Liberal]

Diogenes wrote:

Jesus was the judge, and the judgement was now."You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one." — Jesus (John 8:15)

[Meatros]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Diogenes wrote:

"You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one." — Jesus (John 8:15)

Lib, what's the context of that qoute? I'm just curious, is it part of the "Judge not, lest ye be judged"?

[Polycarp]

I'm not Lib, but the quote comes from this passage (NRSV version, differing slightly in wording from Lib's)
12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life." 13 Then the Pharisees said to him, "You are testifying on your own behalf; your testimony is not valid." 14 Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid because I know where I have come from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I judge no one. 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is valid; for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17 In your law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is valid. 18 I testify on my own behalf, and the Father who sent me testifies on my behalf." 19 Then they said to him, "Where is your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20 He spoke these words while he was teaching in the treasury of the temple, but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come. (John 8:12-20)

As a parallel, here's John 5:19-30, from the same translation:
19 Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise. 20 The Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing; and he will show him greater works than these, so that you will be astonished. 21 Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. 22 The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25 "Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself; 27 and he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

What is key to me here is the emphasis that one's focus should be not on judgment but on hearing and knowing the Word -- i.e., Jesus -- and in doing His will. He contrasts the legalistic standards of the Pharisees with God's standard, which is not to judge those who have sought to follow Him and do good, i.e., not to judge by the standards of the Law -- but to reward those who seek to follow the precepts of righteousness, to do right by others and to humbly follow God. (I'm amplifying the text a bit by reading into what "judge no one," "have life in (one)self," "do good" and other phrases mean in context by pulling in stuff from elsewhere in the Gospel.)

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Libertarian cited this:
"You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one." — Jesus (John 8:15)
You know, Lib, In times past you probably would have been accused of heresy for zeroing in on stuff like that. ;)
Personally, I don't think Jesus regarded himself as a judge either, but Judge Jesus is an indelible image in much of Christianity.

[Triss]

Originally posted by Polycarp
Technical usage, by the way, supports a translation of "to the dead" or "to the realm of the dead" rather than "to Hell" -- He is not conceived of as going to the place of eternal torment, but to the Jewish Sheol, with the purpose of freeing and leading into Heaven the dead who had led a righteous life and were confined there by the nature of death as shadowy ghostlike figures who deserved better.(Bolding mine)

"Confined there by the nature of death"

I wonder what they meant by that? Could anyone provide a bit of clarification?

[Polycarp]

You have a body, indisputably, and by the concepts of theism a soul and spirit (I'm not sure I can define the distinction there, so please let's not get into that!) as well. Your mind would be considered an aspect of your soul -- the rational aspect, as opposed to the faith-feeling aspect normally referred to as "soul."

But while everything you do is determined by your soul (sensu lato), everything you do is mediated by your body. Being too tired or too drunk will even prevent you from thinking well; any interaction with the world of the senses is done by the body in one way or another.

In the conceptions of both Jewish and pre-Christian Greek thought, a soul or spirit released from the body by death is effectively powerless -- a ghost in the strictest of senses, barely perceptible if at all, and incapable of doing much of anything to interact with the world -- to exercise its will in any way.

It's in this context that Paul's insistence on the resurrection of the body and the spiritual body in which people are raised makes a big impact -- for all his hearers, Gentile and Jew alike, the idea that you might be whole after physical death was a totally new concept. Survival after death was not something to look forward to for them prior to this pronouncement; it would be more or less akin to telling you that you'll live 1,000 years -- but spend the last 900 as a quadraplegic without visitors.

Spirits at death went to Sheol (Hebrew term) or Hades (Greek term) -- the land of the dead, which was divided into (Hebrews) Abraham's Bosom and Torments / (Greeks) Elysian Fields and Tartarus. In each case, the good spirits in the former lived a shadowy afterlife with slender comforts; the evil spirits in the latter were made to suffer according to their faults in life. But in no case was there any real opportunity for a fulfilling life after death. The "good place" (conceptually based on both Abraham's Bosom and Elysium) was developed by medieval Catholic thinkers into Limbo, the final resting place of virtuous pagans and unbaptized children.

Jesus was supposed to have brought the spirits from Abraham's Bosom to Heaven after freeing them from death. (Later writers turned this into the Harrowing of Hell.)

Does that help to clarify matters any?

[Triss]

Yes, somewhat, and thank-you very kindly Polycarp.

Of course, it raises a whole bunch of other questions but not to worry, I won't impose further on your kindness.

At least, not today ;)