Dame Edna can lick my huevos

[Chaco]

I thought it was an urban legend when I first heard heard about what he/she said. I mean it is the year 2003, how would a major publication like Vanity Fair publish something like this:

Forget Spanish. There's nothing in that language worth reading except Don Quixote, and a quick listen to the CD of Man of La Mancha will take care of that. There was a poet named Garcia Lorca, but I'd leave him on the intellectual back burner if I were you. As for everyone's speaking it, what twaddle! Who speaks it that you are really desperate to talk to? The help? Your leaf blower? Study French or German, where there are at least a few books worth reading, or, if you're American, try English.

Then I get this (http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/dameedna.asp) petition and now I am furious.

How in the fuck does this shit happen. Didn't the editors notice this before it printed. How could they have let this pass. Did they think that nobody would have noticed. Does Vanity Fair not realize that we are the fastest (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/01/22/MN206840.DTL) growing ethnic group in the United States. Did they think that we were going to overlook this shit. How can these backward fucks allow for this garbage to be printed even in their piece of shit magazine.

I know satire and this is not satirical. This is an insult to me, my family, my friends, and my culture in whatever context it is used. We know humor and this is not funny. Vanity Fair can take their half hearted apology (http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/cl-et-rutten8feb08.story) and shove it up their ass. We have enough stereotypes to overcome as is. We are still trying to recover from Ricky Martin and J-Ho...er, I mean J-Lo. I hope this unfunny asshole/bitch burns in tranvestite hell.

P.S. Before the jokes begin; I really don't want Dame Edna to lick my balls...yuck!

[samarm]

Dame Edna doesn't exist, "she" is not a transvestite, it's a made up character played by a man. The article is supposed to be funny, but it's obviously back fired.

Write to Vanity Fair to complain, but I wouldn't bother with the petition. The petition, as it appears on snopes, is a chain letter masquarading as a petition; the clue is the phrase "send it to all of the people whom you know". If it was a serious petition, then it wouldn't have used that phrase.

[Treviathan]

I think Snopes explains (rationalizes?) it best:

The protests over the piece in question seem to be based on a misunderstanding of the nature of the "Dame Edna" character, one of whose primary comedic attributes is that she is a spoof of entrenched British colonial-era attitudes under which all foreigners (even white, English-speaking Americans, as evidenced by Edna's "or if you're American, try English" jab) were regarded as social inferiors. The facetious question and answer reproduced above don't condone this type of prejudice; they ridicule it. The comments about the desirability of learning Spanish were not intended as a slam of the language or those who speak it, but as a humorous put-down of the snobbish sort of person who would base a decision about which foreign language to learn on its trendiness and fashionability.


If Dame Edna offends you, I wouldn't recommend reading the "Talk Like a Snob!" thread from a couple of months back. To me, the satire's pretty clear; YMMV, obviously.

[schplebordnik]

"Does Vanity Fair not realize that we are the fastest growing ethnic group in the United States."

What's that got to do with it? Or are you saying it's OK to make fun of slower growing (or shrinking) ethnic groups?

[Primaflora]

Dame Edna's been making fun of everyone for years. She's especially vicious to Australians. I think it's a case of humour not transplanting well. The intent definitely would not have been to denigrate Hispanics.

::passes out gladioli as a symbol of peace::

[Desmostylus]

I reckon that fastest growing ethnic group is "humourless people", and they deserve all the whooshing that they get.

[Chaco]

Originally posted by schplebordnik
"Does Vanity Fair not realize that we are the fastest growing ethnic group in the United States."

What's that got to do with it? Or are you saying it's OK to make fun of slower growing (or shrinking) ethnic groups?
The reason I brought that up was because there are a significant number of Latinos in this country that would notice something like this. I am sure that a some of their readers are Latino. Did they seriously believe that we would not get offended. I did not mean it in the way you describe it.

[samarm]

Well, to put things in perspective: Comedians make fun of white people all the time. I'm white. If I got as upset as you are every time I heard / read something making fun of whites, I'd probably keel over from a heart attack.

[Chaco]

Originally posted by Desmostylus
I reckon that fastest growing ethnic group is "humourless people", and they deserve all the whooshing that they get.

I do not know who this asshole (Dame Edna) is and I would guess that a lot of Latinos don't know who he is. So him saying this is justified because he is funny in who knows where? So we're the whooshed ones and we should get over ourselves, Desmostylus ? Are you an avid Vanity Fair reader?

[hajario]

The character of Dame Edna is supposed to be clueless and atiquated. He is making fun of people who feel that way. Get it? He's on your side.

Haj

[schplebordnik]

And who's this "Don Quixote"? Is he some sort of a Spanish writer? I haven't heard of many Spainiards having the first name of "Don." Or is that another hoax, like the Dame Edna fellow?

[hajario]

By the way, I am an avid Vanity Faire reader. It's a great magazine. I don't care for Dame Edna's column so I don't read it. I am familiar with Dame Edna though because he had a television show in the UK and I've seen a few snippets. This character predates the VF column by many years.

Again, and pay close attention, Dame Edna is not a real person. She is a satirical character. It's like getting mad at Edward Norton because he portrayed a Nazi in a movie.

Haj

[Guinastasia]

Or people who know Bonzai Kitten is a satire, but think it will give other people ideas...

*sigh*

It's SUPPOSED to be offensive. He's making fun of people like that!

Sheesh.

[samarm]

Chaco said:

<< I do not know who this asshole (Dame Edna) is >>

If you read the posts above, it is explained.

<< So we're the whooshed ones and we should get over ourselves >>

Or do what?

[GIGObuster]

Funny that you wring this up, my parents did mention to me this case, but the way they describe it is that the Hispanic media is coming with the consensus that this was really offensive.

Personally, I see now it was a big whoosh, but as I have observed in many media frenzies of the past and present (quick: how many do know the popular view that Iraq was involved with 911 is virtual poppycock?), many times reporters will not go back to tell the whole truth if suddenly the “vox populi” has accepted the first impression; in this case, thanks to the media, I fear that Vanity Fair is in trouble.

[Chaco]

Originally posted by hajario
She is a satirical character. It's like getting mad at Edward Norton because he portrayed a Nazi in a movie.

Haj

So is it OK to say whatever you want about whatever ethnic group you want under the guise of satire?

It is easy for you guys to say "jeez, this guy is over reacting" because you guys know who he is and you understand his humor. I am starting to calm down now that I am beginning to understand his humor. But I still feel that you should not use references that many people within that culture may deem offensive. What got me pissed was the help/leaf blower line.

[samarm]

Freedom of Speech. Dame Edna can say what ever "she" likes. If you take offense, that is another matter.

I refer you to my earlier post:

Well, to put things in perspective: Comedians make fun of white people all the time. I'm white. If I got as upset as you are every time I heard / read something making fun of whites, I'd probably keel over from a heart attack.

Compare...

[schplebordnik]

The biggest problem with the help/leaf blower line is that it isn't funny.
The thing about you can learn about Don Quixote by listening to the Man of La Mancha CD, that's funny.

[Smeghead]

Originally posted by Chaco
So is it OK to say whatever you want about whatever ethnic group you want under the guise of satire?


If you're doing it to make the point that such racist attitudes are wrong, then, well, yes. Pretty much.

[hajario]

Originally posted by Chaco
So is it OK to say whatever you want about whatever ethnic group you want under the guise of satire?

It is easy for you guys to say "jeez, this guy is over reacting" because you guys know who he is and you understand his humor. I am starting to calm down now that I am beginning to understand his humor. But I still feel that you should not use references that many people within that culture may deem offensive. What got me pissed was the help/leaf blower line.

I can understand why you would be upset if you thought that this is a real person presenting their views because those views are ignorant and dim witted. Think of it like Archie Bunker from All in the Family. He said stuff like that in every episode but it was funny because everyone knew that his views were idiotic. That character, too, was making fun of those ignorant views.

It's unfortunate that there are people out there raising a ruckus over nothing. There are real racists out there to fight. This is a non-issue.

Haj

[JonScribe]

Hey, Chaco. Read it again, particularly the very last line, "If you're American, try English." Doesn't that give you a clue that this is satire, that it's not to be taken seriously, that Dame Edna is parodying the attitude that you're so offended by?

Lighten up.

Personally, I think the Great Dame is damned funny.

[Desmostylus]

I'll try again.

It's like getting upset with "Archie Bunker" for being a bigoted clown. But the "Archie Bunker" character was supposed to be a bigoted clown, and the intention was to mock bigots.

[Desmostylus]

haj beat me to it.

[don't ask]

Originally posted by schplebordnik
The biggest problem with the help/leaf blower line is that it isn't funny.


Yes it is. Surely you can see the absurdity of the idea that all Spanish speaking people are the help.

[schplebordnik]

"The help don't speak English" is an old "joke" that's been beat to death. Sort of like the joke about West Virginians having no teeth and screwing their sisters.

[Chaco]

Originally posted by samarm
Well, to put things in perspective: Comedians make fun of white people all the time. I'm white. If I got as upset as you are every time I heard / read something making fun of whites, I'd probably keel over from a heart attack.

Compare...

I have seen several instances (on this board even) of people getting very offended by being called sheep raping inbreeds. Even I find this offensive even though I am not white. People have said to me things like, "you guys eat tortillas and beans" and other goofy shit and I just let it slide because I realize that they are ignorant. My contention is that a major publication like Vanity Fair should not allow things like this to be said because it may be taken out of context, as is apparent in this situation.

If I go to a comedy club or I watch a late night show, I know that what to expect. A publication like Vanity Fair (And I apologize for making fun of it, because I have honestly never read it so I will refrain from making judgments about it) should be careful about what it publishes.

I am sick of the media portraying us as subordinates or the "help" as are a lot of people within my culture. I am lightening up now that I understand the context, but there are still many, many people who do not, and they are still very offended by this. This is what I mean by saying that Vanity Fair should be careful.

[samarm]

All Americans are fat
All British have bad teeth
All Aussies are criminals
All Latinos are home helps


There, hope thats cleared things up!

[samarm]

Chaco said:

<< I have seen several instances (on this board even) of people getting very offended by being called sheep raping inbreeds. >>

Well, funnily enough, I nearly fell of my chair laughing at that! Like it, I'll have to remember that one.

[schplebordnik]

It's considered in-breeding to rape a sheep? Good lord, this has been going on a lot longer than anyone thought!

[Gary Kumquat]

Originally posted by schplebordnik
It's considered in-breeding to rape a sheep? Good lord, this has been going on a lot longer than anyone thought!
See, that was funny too.

As for Dame Edna, oh do come on Possum's, he's a comedian.
"My mother used to say that there are no strangers, only friends you haven't met yet. She's now in a maximum security twilight home in Australia." "I'm an immensely shy and vulnerable woman. My husband has never seen me naked. Nor has he expressed the least desire to do so." "The Ancient Greeks, they're different: the blond, cultured ones. They all died out I'm afraid..." "You mustn't judge Australia by the Australians"
He takes the piss out of lots of things, all in a blatantly over the top way that should suggest to the audience it might not be serious . For example, he's a 69 year old male wearing a dress, a purple rinse wig, some of the greatest glasses ever seen and speaking in a falsetto strine accent . Does this suggest that he's being serious to you?

[Chaco]

Originally posted by samarm
All Americans are fat
All British have bad teeth
All Aussies are criminals
All Latinos are home helps


There, hope thats cleared things up!

That perpetuating ignorance is OK as long as you are joking? Yeah, loud and clear.:rolleyes:

Maybe she should have talked about wetbacks like O'Reily did. Oh wait, he is also a master of satire. That explains everything.

[jayjay]

Oh my god! Next time I see someone make a joke about showtunes, I'm going to have to scream my head off and start an internet chain letter demanding that person's immediate termination for being a homophobic asshole!

I agree completely with the "humorless people" comment posted earlier. If you go out of your way to be offended, there's a really good chance you'll find something to be offended about.

[syncrolecyne]

I am Mexican and I am completely unoffended...in fact I am a little offended myself at people (including other Latinos) who are in just such a rush to be offended crybabies over everything. If you can't grasp that this was an obvious satire of bigoted dimwits, then I am deeply worried. Granted I don't find it terribly funny, but not the least bit serious.

Perhaps since "Edna" is an Australian, she probably isn't privy to the knowledge that Latinos are a "protected class" in America that can't be poked fun of in the same way that Poles or Frenchmen are. Now Vanity Fair should know better, but then again should they be out to censor everyone? Should all illiberal or politically incorrect material be expunged from print?

And Latinos are not the fastest growing ethnic group(s) in America, Asians are. But then again we are perfectly free to make fun of the British, as those pasty bastards no longer come here that often and barely have sex at all.

[Gary Kumquat]

Originally posted by syncrolecyne
But then again we are perfectly free to make fun of the British, as those pasty bastards no longer come here that often and barely have sex at all.
Now I do hope that you were wearing a dress and typing in a squeaky voice when you posted that, just to make it clear you were joking.

[istara]

I *LOVE* Dame Edna.

She never seemed to be as popular in Australia as she was in the UK though.

"Dame Edna" isn't the only persona the comedian does, Australian politician "Les Patterson" is also quite funny.

[sugaree]

Vanity Fair also has an imaginary society dame columnist named Nan (exists only as a drawing; not even as a man in a dress) who described a vacation spot as being overrun by doughy, badly dressed midwesterners. You guessed it: a reader from Ohio wrote in canceling her subscription. Vanity Fair printed the letter without comment.

[Consuela Bobuela]

I can see the satire in Dame Edna's column piece, but it just didn't have the right punch to hit home.
Much more clever satire is the Sarah Silverman bit (http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/Pf/0,1527,8559,00.html) that got her into so much trouble with the asian community. It troubled me that they didn't see the irony of it.

[Desmostylus]

Let's review, shall we?Originally posted by Chaco
I thought it was an urban legend when I first heard heard about what he/she said... Then I get this petition and now I am furious.Originally posted by Chaco
A publication like Vanity Fair (And I apologize for making fun of it, because I have honestly never read it so I will refrain from making judgments about it) should be careful about what it publishes.Originally posted by Chaco
I do not know who this asshole (Dame Edna) is and I would guess that a lot of Latinos don't know who he is. So you heard vague rumours, then received an e-mail providing conclusive proof about something you've never read or heard of before, and now you're upset.

I assume that you're also pissed off because a bunch of Nigerians scammed all of the money from your bank account.

Stupid jerk.

[JRDelirious]

Chaco, perdona, pero a este boricua eso no le molestó en nada.
¿Sabes por qué?
¡Porque el comediante tras "Dame Edna" NO, repito NO está mofándose de los latinos! ¡Está mofándose DE LOS SNOBS BLANCOS RICOS que actúan y piensan de esa manera! El propósito de la pieza es demostrar cuán ridículas son ESAS personas y la clase de mentalidad ignorante que tienen.
¿O es que está prohibido escribir una sóla palabra si no es que por eso es lo que abogas? Diantres, hombre, es una pieza de una revista de novedades frívolas, no un pasaje de sagradas escrituras.

Excuse me, Chaco, but this Puertorrican is not offended. Know why? Because the "Dame Edna" character is NOT, repeat NOT, mocking latinos! He's mocking RICH WHITE SNOBS who act and think that way! The purpose of the piece is to show how ridiculous and ignorant are people with that mentality. Or are we supposed to never write a word that we're not actually advocating? C'mon, man, it's a fluff piece for a magazine, not Scripture!

[hawthorne]

istara
She never seemed to be as popular in Australia as she was in the UK though.That's partly because she's been doing that act since the mid 1950s. "Dame Edna" isn't the only persona the comedian does, Australian politician "Les Patterson" is also quite funny.Ooh, Sir Les is tasteless. He's not a politican, he's a cultural attache and patron of the yartz.

[TheLoadedDog]

It's Dame Edna! Relax.

[Slacker]

Does the term "reflexively irate" occur to anyone else?

It's a satire Chaco. Good satire is often shocking and/or offensive for a reason: it makes the reader think.

By the way, please avoid The Onion (http://www.theonion.com/onion3602/bush_reaches_hispanic.html) at all costs.

[istara]

hawthorne - I was there during the republican referendum, and soooooooo wanted her nominated for the presidency!

Her or Mark Taylor. He's just great.

[Estilicon]

I will be starting my own rant very soon. This board objective is fighting against ignorance. I can't believe people are wasting precious bytes answering an stupid jerk who wouldn't recognize satire if it picked up a shotgun, shove it up his ass and pulled the trigger :) A doper asked a question (If it was intended as a joke, sorry that I didn't get it):

And who's this "Don Quixote"? Is he some sort of a Spanish writer? I haven't heard of many Spainiards having the first name of "Don."

"Don Quixote" is the greatest novel of the greatest ibero-american writer Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra (1547-1616).
I usually think that Don is the spanish equivalent of the english "Sir" so it would be something like "Sir Quixote". Of course that in latin america (where there is no nobility) it is use as a form of adress, a very respectfull one.

Anyway in the fight against ignorance you are either with me or against me, I don't care what the moderators say. I will be doing everything I can to protect knowledge. No rules bind me, cause ignorance almost killed my Da (and I hate it for that, but that is another story) :) Anyway Op. Fuck you.

p.s. ¡Me encanta como hablan los puertoriqueños!

[oliversarmy]

For what it's worth, Vanity Fair will apologize, apparently:

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-et-rutten8feb08.story

[Estilicon]

Before I forget, I am damm tired of the expression "lick my balls" in all languages and variations. I don't know why.

[jayjay]

Dame Edna ate my balls!

Or is that just too 1997? :)

[Slacker]

Originally posted by oliversarmy
For what it's worth, Vanity Fair will apologize, apparently:

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-et-rutten8feb08.story

Gee, there's an unbiased account (not you oliversarmy, the article).

It says: "Vanity Fair's item failed on all three counts: It was hurtful, bound to be misunderstood and, quite obviously, lacked literary value."

Quite obvious to whom exactly? I'm far more offended by "journalists" who think that whatever they believe is common understanding throughout the universe.

I'm disappointed that Vanity Fair decided to apologize. They printed the article, so obviously they saw some value in it before the "outrage" began.

[Bad News Baboon]

Chaco,

I am curious.
Did you read the article yourself or did you hear about it?

See, that's the problem. Most people have heard about it and not read it and are taking it totally out of context.

If someone told me that some guy wrote that Spanish is useless I wouldbe upset...

however, seeing the article you can see the goofy characatures, etc.

For the record:
I am hispanic.
I read the article.
I wasn't offended but I did think: wow. this is going to cause a stink.

sure enough...

[Estilicon]

Jayjay "ate my balls" won't do. But thanks for the effort. :)

[Lamia]

Originally posted by Chaco

A publication like Vanity Fair (And I apologize for making fun of it, because I have honestly never read it so I will refrain from making judgments about it) should be careful about what it publishes.


They certainly should have been more careful about publishing that two-page nude photo of Iggy Pop in their annual music issue in 2000. I mean sheesh, give a girl a little warning so she doesn't stumble across something like that all of a sudden while innocently killing time in the school library's periodical room!

But I digress. Vanity Fair probably believed that its regular readers would be familiar with Dame Edna's comedic style, and did not ever imagine that the article would be taken out of context and read by people who were unfamiliar with Dame Edna or Vanity Fair.

[Padeye]

Chaco, developer a thicker skin. I come from a Mexican-American heritage and I find things that insult me but this isn't one of them. Cheech Marin has never bothered me (I actually like a lot of his work) and Dame Edna doesn't bother me. Save your anger for something that matters.

[Esprix]

Originally posted by hajario

The character of Dame Edna is supposed to be clueless and atiquated. He is making fun of people who feel that way. Get it? He's on your side...

It's like getting mad at Edward Norton because he portrayed a Nazi in a movie.

Indeed.

And Chaco, I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but as Desmostylus already so adeptly pointed out, you never read the article (or the magazine), you didn't follow up at all to get the whole story, and you have no clue who Dame Edna is, and you're up in arms over what amounts to nothing? Go fuck yourself, you ignorant asshole.

Originally posted by Chaco

So is it OK to say whatever you want about whatever ethnic group you want under the guise of satire?

Yes - DUH. That's what satire is. You use the ridiculous to point out how ridiculous the ridiculous is.

Esprix

[yojimbo]

Chaco ignore all these idiots you've got every right to be angry.

I've been trying to get people to agree that Jonathan Swift was oneof the sickest fucks who ever walked on this planet and people laugh at me. I don't see why they disagree read his modest proposal (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html) and see what you think. Sick bastard or what.


;)

[syncrolecyne]

Originally posted by Gary Kumquat
Now I do hope that you were wearing a dress and typing in a squeaky voice when you posted that, just to make it clear you were joking.

Why, I do that for all my posts.

[Esprix]

yojimbo, you're my new best friend. :D

Esprix

[Mehitabel]

Dame Edna had a Broadway show a couple of years ago. S/he is a major international phenomenon who's been on the world's stages since before most of us were born. She makes fun of EVERYBODY!

The vast majority of VANITY FAIR readers know who she is and where she's coming from. If somebody's never heard of her before, I'm surprised they're bothering to read the mag at all, because they're totally out of it.

Barry, don't apologize! Or if you do, make it as magnificently condescending as only you know how to!

[OxyMoron]

Chaco, ignorance is not an entitlement.

Offense based on ignorance is especially not an entitlement.

Grow up.

[mhendo]

Well, personally, i thought the Vanity Fair piece by Dame Edna was targetted more at the attitudes of wealthy Anglos than it was at Latinos.

But my perspective is based on years of watching Dame Edna (and Barry Humphries in other guises) and i love just about everything s/he does. And in my experience, humour such as this, when it comes out of Dame Edna's mouth, is much more likely to expose other people's stereotyping behaviour than to ridicule a minority ethnic group.

While i sort of understand the OP's position, i think it arises out of a misunderstanding of the type of satire on display in this case.

[Mojo]

Chaco said:
A publication like Vanity Fair (And I apologize for making fun of it, because I have honestly never read it so I will refrain from making judgments about it)
How can these backward fucks allow for this garbage to be printed even in their piece of shit magazine.
Good thing you decided to refrain from making judgements there, Chaco.
PS- that comment was sarcastic. Sar-cas-tic.

[Chaco]

Everyone is assuming that I knew who the fuck this person was before I read this. I have been talking to people and explaining to them who Dame Edna is and somehow they still don't find it humorous. To respond to the countless people who said that I didn't read the article I invite you to read the OP again. I knew that this was supposed to be satire yet I still didn't find it funny. Now that I have read about this in detail I have lightened up. Everybody is busy assuming that I have no sense of humor and that I have a shotgun up my ass, or something. It is a joke. Fine. All hail Dame Edna. S/he is the great whoosher and I admire him/her for that. Whatever.

Maybe I should have read a Dame Edna book or rented some of her shows or something. From now on, I will do heavy research everytime someone says something offensive to me. That way I won't come out as a pigheaded asshole. Will that help me grow up?

I accept that Dame Edna is not a racist. I also accept that I may have over reacted. My point is that this is obviously offending people. Not everyone is as enlightened as everyone on this board. Satire, in whatever form can hurt. Does anyone remember the blackface minstrels? I am sure that many people defended it and said that it was just satire and lighthearted humor. That hurt and offended people even though it was a joke.

My example may not be directly analagous but it points to the fact that what may be funny to some is not to others. I still believe that VF should have been a little more careful and I don't think that I need to become a suscriber to say that.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Originally posted by yojimbo
I've been trying to get people to agree that Jonathan Swift was oneof the sickest fucks who ever walked on this planet and people laugh at me. Mr. Swift was definately not a "sick fuck". Though snails may not be palatable to many uncultured Americans, only the most boorish would describe the French as "sick fucks" for advocating the consumption of escargo. Why then, must you denigrate the cultured taste of Mr. Swift regarding his suggestions for a civilized meal? I am truly suprised that you would be so ignorant to refined culinary tastes. I have sampled roasted children from many cultures, and it can not be denied that the Irish are the most tasty and succulent. I recommend they be served in a light garlic butter sauce, a pinch of rosemary, and accompanied by a fine Merlot.


[size=1]There's a joke about "tater-tots" somewhere in here that's just dying to be made - but I'm not going to do it[/size=1]

[Slacker]

Originally posted by Chaco
From now on, I will do heavy research everytime someone says something offensive to me. That way I won't come out as a pigheaded asshole. Will that help me grow up?

(and)

My point is that this is obviously offending people. Not everyone is as enlightened as everyone on this board. Satire, in whatever form can hurt.

Doing "heavy research" on someone, and knowing the context of their words are two different things. I've heard of Dame Edna, but I'm by no means familiar with her work - but when I read that article though I understood it to be satirical and laughed. No research necessary.

You say satire can hurt. I say it's supposed to.

[Daikona]

Originally posted by Chaco
My point is that this is obviously offending people.

It's offending people who don't have the mental capacity to recognize the nature of something that couldn't be more satirical if it had a giant blinking neon sign that said "I am not serious". If you're going to be offended that easily, you deserve to be surrounded by things that offend you.

[Esprix]

Originally posted by Chaco

Everyone is assuming that I knew who the fuck this person was before I read this.

Which was, of course, your first mistake, which would be passing judgement and denegrating something with no knowledge of it whatsoever.

I have been talking to people and explaining to them who Dame Edna is and somehow they still don't find it humorous.

Some people will be offended no matter what. I wonder - do you find The Onion (http://www.theonion.com) offensive? Thankfully, satire is alive and well.

Now that I have read about this in detail I have lightened up.

Hooray!

From now on, I will do heavy research everytime someone says something offensive to me. That way I won't come out as a pigheaded asshole. Will that help me grow up?

Yes, it will. Hooray!

I accept that Dame Edna is not a racist.

Hooray!

I also accept that I may have over reacted.

Hooray!

Satire, in whatever form can hurt.

Then I daresay it's not satire's fault, as satire is intended to skewer established social conventions. To wit:

Main Entry: sat·ire
Pronunciation: 'sa-"tIr
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin satura, satira, perhaps from (lanx) satura dish of mixed ingredients, from feminine of satur well-fed; akin to Latin satis enough -- more at SAD
Date: 1501
1 : a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
2 : trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly
synonym see WIT

It is a shame that people are offended by this piece, but in this particular case I'm really feeling they're bringing it on themselves. It is satire, and it is meant to be in favor of them by showing how ridiculous the position is, not somehow denigrate them by in any way stating the position is true. Heaven knows I've been offended before, sometimes even by things when the orginal author/speaker did not in any way intend it to be offensive, but I think in this particular case those who are taking offense are woefully ignorant of which they lamet against.

My example may not be directly analagous but it points to the fact that what may be funny to some is not to others.

Well thank goodness for freedom of expression! And even though I consider "PC" to mean "plain courtesy" in most cases, I will admit that my liberal brothers and sisters oft take it to an uncalled-for extreme.

Esprix

[CBEscapee]

Originally posted by Estilicon
I



"Don Quixote" is the greatest novel of the greatest ibero-american writer Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra (1547-1616).


ibero-american?

[Chaco]

Originally posted by Esprix

I wonder - do you find The Onion (http://www.theonion.com) offensive?


You bring up an interesting point. I have been a fan of The Onion for several years. Why is it that The Onion has never been quouted as being derogatory? They get pretty nasty and some of their pieces can be pretty offensive. Could it be because they are known as a satirical publication and Vanity Fair is not?

Let me explain how I heard about this and how it is being told to most people:

1. Vanity Fair said.....(Wait a minute let me research this because from my understanding Vanity Fair is a fairly respectable publication and they wouldn't let this slide)

2. Dame Edna said.....(Who is Dame Edna)

3. He is satirist.....(OK, I guess it's suppossed to be funny, I mean come on nobody calls Latinos the help or leaf blowers:rolleyes:)

4. OK, he is trying to expose the ignorance.

A lot of people have not gotten past the first step and a few are at the second. I agree that if we got past all the steps, then maybe we wouldn't be as pissed.

Also,

a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn

Ignorance and racism is a human vice or folly not the Spanish Language or the Help/Leaf Blower. This is where the joke gets lost.

[Esprix]

:confused: How is equating Latinos to "the help" not racism? I thought that's what this was all about?

Esprix

[Esprix]

Look, a drag queen comedienne, whose schtick is being an old fuddy-duddy not with the times, writes a satirical puff piece in a social rag that has no bearing on the world as we know it. Then, when given incomplete and unresearched third-hand knowledge of it, the masses are outraged.

Why are you defending ignorance?

Esprix

[Bad News Baboon]

chaco,

see here is the mistake:

1. Vanity Fair said.....(Wait a minute let me research this because from my understanding Vanity Fair is a fairly respectable publication and they wouldn't let this slide

Vanity Fair does so publish satire all the time, in their Vanities section.

Another example of a regular feature is called Nan, a socialite who writes about the uber-rich in a satirical manner. The ENTIRE section of Vanities is pretty much a satire: Ins and Outs, whos who, that interviewer guy (he did Suzy this last time)...

I have a question:

Had Dame Edna said something similar about Chinese... would you have felt the same moral outrage? Would you have signed a petition then?

[Cervaise]

Hey Chaco, are you short?

'Cause short people got nobody to love.

[White Lightning]

I particularly love this line from the article chaco cited (http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-et-rutten8feb08.story) above:
"Dame Edna could have chosen any number of amusing responses," the letter says, "however, she responded using cheap, two-dimensional stereotypes of Latinos and Latin Americans, revealing not only her racism, but also her profound ignorance of who we are." The letter noted the striking dissonance between Dame Edna's response and the same issue's cover story, a fawning profile of Mexican actress Salma Hayek, whom Vanity Fair's headline writers celebrate for drawing "on her heritage to produce and star in 'Frida,' the hit biopic about Mexico's iconic artist, Frida Kahlo."
emphasis mineThe idiocy functions on so many levels. First, speaking of 'profound ignorance' of who somebody is, how about the speaker's profound ignorance as to the identity of the author of the piece? It reads like they think Dame Edna is a real person, answering a real letter. She could have chosen a different response? She wrote the letter along with the response!

The author of the LA Times piece then goes on to highlight their complete and total non-understanding of the concept of satire by acting like the stance taken in the Dame Edna piece and the slant of the magazine's cover story could somehow conflict.

Reading through the rest of the article, it only gets worse. Is it just me, or is there no attribution on that piece? It occurred to me to dash off a quick note to let the author know what an idiot they were, but it would seem to be impossible.

[No Me Ayudes Compadre]

Originally posted by Chaco
You bring up an interesting point. I have been a fan of The Onion for several years. Why is it that The Onion has never been quouted as being derogatory?

Maybe because the political-interest reactionaries didn't see this article (http://www.theonion.com/onion3014/beef.html), those poor, unskilled, lethargic, sleepy, easily tracked, bean-eating bastards.

[Cosmopolitan]

My brain hurts. Apparently, all it takes to offend some people is for certain words to show up in a routine or a piece of writing; context has no bearing on whether these folks take offense or not.

If you wanna be purposefully obtuse & not make any effort to distinguish between satire & slurs, have fun.

[Super Gnat]

Hey Chaco, what do you think of this ('www.blackpeopleloveus.com')?

[No Me Ayudes Compadre]

Originally posted by Cosmopolitan
My brain hurts. Apparently, all it takes to offend some people is for certain words to show up in a routine or a piece of writing; context has no bearing on whether these folks take offense or not.


What a niggardly thing to say.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally posted by CBEscapee
ibero-american?

Spain and Spanish-speaking Americas... If he had said just Spanish, people could think he was only referring as the greatest author of Spain. :)

[Redboss]

I am a great admirer of Barry Humprries (the creator of Dame Edna) and I will watch anything on TV that has Dame Edna in it.

Notwithstanding, any australian of my age is well aware that Humphries is deeply conservative and frequently scathing and dismissive on subjects such as empowerment of minorities. I can live with that, and when it comes up in his humour I make allowances.

But I recognise that the regular and highly unfairSDMB pile-on is going on here. Chaco is being picked on, in a way that a poster with an established reputation would never be, and that smells too much of school-yard bullying for me.

My take on this?

Chaco: I feel offended by this piece.

SDMB regular: You just don't get it, it's meant to be funny.

Chaco: Yes but I feel offended by it.

SDMB regular: Well, you shouldn't. The guy's a genius!

Chaco: Well, I dunno, I still feel offended by it.

Another SDMB regular: You're not! Can't you get that right you blockhead! You are NOT offended

Chaco: Yes I am , I feel offended..

Yet another SDMB regular: But you're feeling the WRONG feelings. For god's sake listen to us, or better still, apologise, and get the right feelings!

Chaco: But I feel offended...

CHORUS OF SDMB Regulars: oh, grow up, get real, get a life, haven't you something more important to talk about, etc...




If the joke is at the expense of a particular racial group, and someone from that racial group is offended, you may say "I don't care about your being offended" or "Most people from your group don't find that offensive (if that is a factual statement)".

But to say "Oh well, your feelings don't count" is to enter a collusion to insult, and I believe, to perpetuate racial slanders, by minimising their harmful effect. "Oh it's just a joke, don't take it seriously"

That "just a joke" line was used very effectively on women for the first seven decades of the last century, but it don't wash now.

Dame Edna WAS offensive. She is not a saint, just someone in showbusiness. She can make mistakes, and I think she did, and she can be unfunny sometimes.

He was offended. Is that so hard to live with? I suppose it's less fun to disagree privately, when you can all join the kicking contest.

Chaco has as much perception and intellignce as most other SDMB regulars who've posted here, and I trust his judgement.

I love these boards, but by god there's times when they offer people a chance to display a very nasty side of themselves. Fewer kicking contests please, and more fighting of ignorance.

Grumpily,

Redboss

[Redboss]

Humphries. Okay, I was wrong

R

[Rhum Runner]

Ignorance and racism is a human vice or folly not the Spanish Language or the Help/Leaf Blower. This is where the joke gets lost.
God, but you are a special kind of idiot. Chaco I suggest you stop reading VF until you have graduated from the third grade. Fourth grade humor is obviously lost on you.

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by Chaco
You bring up an interesting point. I have been a fan of The Onion for several years. Why is it that The Onion has never been quouted as being derogatory? They get pretty nasty and some of their pieces can be pretty offensive. Could it be because they are known as a satirical publication and Vanity Fair is not?


Err... no. "The Onion" is known as a satirical publication, and "Dame Edna" has been known MUCH LONGER as a satirical character.

[White Lightning]

Redboss, I don't think anyone here has tried to say that chaco or anyone else isn't offended. We're just saying that it's dumb to be offended. If me walking down the street offends you, nobody can tell you that you aren't offended by it, but that doesn't make it legitimate.

[JRDelirious]

Sorry, Redboss and Chaco, but, as someone pointed out above, there is no entitlement to be offended. If after the truth of the situation is carefully explained someone insists on saying "but I am offended", then all I can say is "well, tough for you. Your feelings are real, but they are wrong." And if they insist "some people won't get it and they will get offended" , we can insist, "well, those people are having the wrong feelings themselves."

Yes, there is such a thing as wrong feelings. Happens all the time to good people.

[Chaco]

Originally posted by Super Gnat
Hey Chaco, what do you think of this ('www.blackpeopleloveus.com')?

I feel that this is the kind of crap that perpetuates stereotypes. But then again I also believe that rap is bad and, as I have learned many times, I am in the minority with these feelings too.

I believe in free speech and the first amendment. Hell, I personally benefit from it all the time. I still believe that it is not OK to perpetuate stereotypes and then say it's OK because it's art or music or comedy. Just as I believe that even though I have a right to own a gun, I will not take it out and shoot it as I please because I have a right to. I guess we agree to disagree. No skin off my back. I learned a lot from this thread and I appreciate it, honestly. I will pass the word on to my friends and family and I will explain to them the context and let them make their own decisions without passing judgement on them.

Allow me to add the context in which I recieved Dame Edna's piece. Racial slurs and stereotypes are like water torture. Eventually your skin gets thin from all the bullshit. I have experienced this type of crap throughout my life and I am sick of the just kidding cop out. I live in a state where speaking Spanish (bi-lingual education) was banned in schools and immigrants have lost many rights (but that's another thread). My friends, family, and neighbors are the "leaf blowers" and the "help". Maybe I am hyper-sensitive because I have to hear these peoples stories on a daily basis. I don't get angry because of ignorance, I get angry because of experience.

I don't care if the Lord himself would have come down and said those things, they still would have bothered me and many people I know. But I guess that makes us ignorant because if we don't get the joke then we are stupid, so fuck us and long live idiots who perpetuate this shit in whatever context.

Whatever. To each their own. I do not take it personally because I know where I am (the pit) and I lurked long enough to know what to expect.

Peace Out :)

P.S. (On preview) Thanks for the save Redboss this gangbang was starting to hurt.

[LolaCocaCola]

I wanna lick Dame Edna's huevos.









Wait.


No, I don't.

[king of spain]

Chaco. You still seem to have an incomplete grasp of the concept of satire. Have no fear, though, you've come to the right place if you need ignorance fought. I will attempt to explain.

Satire means making exaggerated statements in support of some viewpoint with the actual intent of making that viewpoint appear ridiculous. (This is a vastly oversimplified definition, but it will suffice for our current purposes.) For instance, when you said "I mean come on nobody calls Latinos help or leaf blowers ;) ", that could be considered a primitive form of satire. Your actual meaning was "Many people refer to Latinos as though they were all engaged in unskilled labor," but you chose to express this through a statement with the exact opposite literal meaning. Most satire, however, is not marked with winky emoticons. This is where some confusion can set in.

Minstrel shows were actually aiming at humor based on "black people sure are ridiculous," not "racists sure are ridiculous." The essay that yojimboguy linked to, in contrast, is a classic example of satire. (Here (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html) it is again.) Please read it carefully and try to see the ways in which this form of humor is different from that of minstrel shows.

This thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=161812) is another example of satire. I'll analyze this one for you to give you an idea how it's done. You see, Diogenes the Cynic is not only not Bob the guy from the Jack Chick comics, he's not even a fan of Jack Chick comics. He's not even a Christian fundamentalist. He feels that the views expressed in Chick comics are ridiculous. Therefore, he is posting in an exaggerated imitation of "Bob" in order to highlight those aspects of Chick comics that he feels are ridiculous. Have you ever been in a class where the teacher left, and a clever student got up and started impersonating the teacher? And the impression consisted of mimicking the teacher, but with certain characteristic mannerisms exaggerated for humorous effect? It's sort of like that.

What does all this have to do with Dame Edna? I am glad you asked, Chaco. Humphries is using his "Dame Edna" persona to mock people who look down on Latinos, in exactly the same way that Diogenes is using his "Bob" persona to mock people who follow Jack Chick's belief system. In other words, Chaco, Humphries is on your side as far as the basic issue at hand goes. He is not simply engaging in humor that deals with racial issues; he is using humor as a tool to fight racism by intentionally making it look stupid. You do not have to be familiar with Dame Edna to discern this; I'm not, and I did. However, most of us here at the Straight Dope Message Board have the benefit of years of familiarity with the satirical arts. If you are a relative newcomer to the concept, some degree of confusion may be understandable.

I hope this discussion has been helpful to you. We at the SDMB are always happy for the chance to eradicate ignorance. Godspeed, Chaco!

For extra credit, underline the words and phrases in this post intended by the author to convey a sarcastic, condescending and/or mock-educational tone. It's fun!

[CBEscapee]

Originally posted by KarlGrenze
Spain and Spanish-speaking Americas... If he had said just Spanish, people could think he was only referring as the greatest author of Spain. :)

Well since he was Spanish I didn't understand why he was referred to as ibero-american. Why consider him as such if he never set foot in America?

[GIGObuster]

Chaco, I agree with the majority that this was a satiric piece. Like you, I did notice that the Hispanic media is misleading many relatives and others; the element of what Madame Edna is was removed from the context, no wonder it sounded offensive on the news bit. It took awhile to convince my parents about what was really going on.

What everybody should remember in the end is this:

This has been a manufactured scandal by the media for the media and by the media.

If there is someone to whom everybody should be offended it is with the Hispanic media editors that did a lousy job of getting this non-issue to the forefront.

Either that or…

[Cynical mode]
I picture editors or owners thinking that if they got good ratings out of all this, who cares if the end result is to make the community look foolish?
If that is the case, there are other choice Hispanic words for these so-called purveyors of information.
[/Cynical mode]

[Guinastasia]

Chaco, and whatever you do, don't EVER read Swift's A Modest Proposal.

[Guinastasia]

D'oh, someone beat me to it. Oh well.

I'd like to point out that black face was NEVER intended as a satire in it's day. It was out and out racism.

Dame Edna IS a satire, you dumbass.

[Duckster]

Originally posted by Chaco
I have seen several instances (on this board even) of people getting very offended by being called sheep raping inbreeds. Even I find this offensive even though I am not white. <hijack>
You'll find debates about the social construct of race and ethnicity in other threads on this board. You will also find opinions and facts that genetically it's all irrelevant. Just keep in mind that under the law, being Hispanic is not a racial construct but an ethnic one.

Whatever you are is fine by me. Just don't claim that if you're Hispanic that it means not being white all in the same thought process. It's not accurate in all cases. I work with one lady who is a blue-eyed, genuine blonde Hispanic. She's white. Her statement, not mine. Under the skin it's irrelevant. Under the law, it's incorrect.
</hijack>

[Esprix]

RedBoss, how do you feel about the fact that Chaco admittedly knew nothing about Dame Edna, never read the article, and was only going off third-hand reports?

There's being offended, and then there's just being ignorant.

Oh, and Chaco, Redboss and I know from whence we speak. I'd say we know just a wee thing or two about discrimination and offensiveness.

Esprix

[Redboss]

Hi 'sprix dear; I read the extract that Chaco quoted in the OP. I found it slightly offensive, but then I'm not Latino. On thinking it over, and listening to Chaco's words, I can see the humour somewhat more, but I also find it more offensive.

Please folks, Dame Edna/Barry Humphries is not a White Knight of Satire fearlessly combatting the evils of racism. He's in showbusiness. He's funny and daring, much like a drag Joan Rivers. But he doesn't really care if he hurts people's feelings. He wants to get a laugh.

Hunmphries has frequently made known his antagonism to "political correctness", a boogy-man that never had much substance, and that has served more to empower people to offend than anything else. Nothing against him, of course. But he ain't Jonathon Swift.

Chaco makes the best point, when he talks about the water torture of continual race prejudice, and the way it does make one's skin thinner. Perhaps he is a little more sensitive about the racial characteristics than most of us. That's because most of us don't live with it EVERY SINGLE FUCKING DAY !

Esprix makes reference to this in that we both share the irrtiation of having to hear antigay slurs over and over. And frankly I am getting less patient with the people around me. Which is why I see Chaco's point of view.

But what I am really suspicious of is this strong need for so many people to blow him out of the water over this trifling issue. It's more than a need to correct someone's misapprehensions, it's bullying. Why this glee over the attempted stifling of someone with a complaint of racism?

In the workplace it is now accepted that sexual harrassment is inappropriate, and that a perception of harrassment is to be taken seriously, and investigated, not dismissed without question, even if that perception is not shared by others. That is, we no longer say "you've got it wrong, he never meant it, get over it". Instead we take people's concerns at face value, and with respect, even if ultimately we disagree.

I am disappointed that members of this Board could not muster the courtesy to treat Chaco the same way. Popping in merely to say "dumbass!" is pretty poor behaviour, especially when so many others have already delivered the insults for you.

Chaco mate, these people are usually better behaved. In the mean time, pass me that rocket launcher, and those grenades, and I've got your back. We won't go down without a fight. Come on you bastards! Just you and me, pal....

Redboss

[Chaco]

Originally posted by Esprix
RedBoss, how do you feel about the fact that Chaco admittedly knew nothing about Dame Edna, never read the article, and was only going off third-hand reports?

There's being offended, and then there's just being ignorant.

Oh, and Chaco, Redboss and I know from whence we speak. I'd say we know just a wee thing or two about discrimination and offensiveness.

Esprix

How do you feel about the fact that I addressed this several times.

I did read the article and I did read the fact that it was a satire. What I admitted to was that I was not a reader of Vanity Fair. I linked in the OP the entire article.

If you are not going to read what I wrote and attack little bits and pieces of what you decided to read then this is becoming an excercise in futility. I have stated my views, where they come from, and why I feel the way I feel. If you guys don't agree, fine. I am not trying to win a contest here. I am trying to help in fighting ignorance and in this case most of the ignorance has been fought within me. That's fine because as I stated before I have learned a lot from this thread and I actually appreciate it.

Love,

The Insidious, Ignorant Dumbass Who is Legally not White

[Chaco]

Why is it that only one person actually gets what I am trying to say?

Thanks Redboss

[Esprix]

Funny, I was going to respond to Redboss with that exact same reason - it's not about correct or incorrect feelings, it's about fighting ignorance. He has every right to be offended, but at least now he's educated as to what precisely he's being offended by. Now, if he's still offended we may think him a boob, but that's an entirely different animal altogether.

Esprix

[Desmostylus]

Originally posted by Desmostylus
Stupid jerk.Originally posted by Chaco
If you guys don't agree, fine. I am not trying to win a contest here. I am trying to help in fighting ignorance and in this case most of the ignorance has been fought within me. That's fine because as I stated before I have learned a lot from this thread and I actually appreciate it.I formally withdraw my "stupid jerk" statement.

[RedFury]

Spaniard chiming in. Like Chaco, I had no fucking idea who this Dame Edna was -- and finding out who he was didn't change my opinion of the quote one iota.

Because, quite frankly, I didn't find his satire funny in the least. In fact, *I* found it fucking offensive as well. And unless there's a law that makes all satire poignant and witty by default, the only 'dumbass' here is the person comparing this asshole, Humphries, to Jonathan Swift. Yeah, that's you, Guin! :rolleyes:

So fuck of all you that are trying to tell Chaco or myself how to feel about a piss-poor piece that under the guise of satire comes off as racist as anything I've read in quite sometime. And spare me the chorus line of: "but that's precisely the way it's supposed to come off!"

BTW, had this jerkoff written something similar about Orientals, blacks, gays, etc., I could certainly understand anyone from those groups calling him out on it as well.

Red <---white guy who can't tell a gardening tool from a kitchen utensil, but sure as fuck knows about Spanish literature and good satire.

[Desmostylus]

Okay, RedFury, you've reached your own informed conclusion about this. I think your conclusion is silly, but WTF, you're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

But that's a whole different ballgame from the OP, which was a complaint made without understanding the background, based on a spam e-mail.

[Junior Spaceman]

I just wanted to step in and offer my agreement to what Redboss has said - even though I get annoyed with the old kneejerk PC response to things, I think it's important to realise that, while we may have some stereotypical view of the political stance of a 'cross dressing satirist', Humphries doesn't really fit this (as Redboss pointed out).

I've been in the 'can't stand him' camp since I was about ten years old and I figured out how meanspirited his humour actually is. Maybe you need to be Australian to really understand where his satire is coming from, and (like Dame Edna herself), it's not pretty.

[yojimbo]

Originally posted by king of spain
The essay that yojimboguy linked to, in contrast, is a classic example of satire. (Here (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html) it is again.) Please read it carefully and try to see the ways in which this form of humor is different from that of minstrel shows.

Nope, yojimbo linked to it. yojimboguy is a different poster.

[Maastricht]

[QUOTEBut what I am really suspicious of is this strong need for so many people to blow him out of the water over this trifling issue. It's more than a need to correct someone's misapprehensions, it's bullying. Why this glee over the attempted stifling of someone with a complaint of racism?
:[/QUOTE

IMHO, Redboss is right (and he made this thread take a really interesting turn), but the bullying masses had a very good excuse: Chaco started.

The (implicit) subtitles to Chaco's first 2-3 posts read:
1 We Latinos feel hurt by Dame Edna. It follows Dame Edna must have had the intent to hurt, so she's evil.
2 Subsequent posters keep insisting she's funny and harmless.
3 Those posters are either blind, or they're with Dame Edna and consequently against us, Latino's and our hurt.

I think the vehemence of the many posters came from their implicit indignance at that last implicit subtitle.

/Hijack down Memory Lane
Back when I was an 18-year old feminist (and boy, did I want everyone to know about that sparkling new identity!) I kept getting that same kind of indignant remarks. "So, you hate men and you think all women-homemakers are lazy fools, right? " I kept interpreting that hostility like proof I was even more right than I feared. But fortunately, I was wrong. It's just how people react when they feel attacked. Even when the attacker claims to be the victim first.
/end Hijack down Memory Lane

[Esprix]

Sorry, but I read My Gorgeous Life and just about laughed myself into a rest home.

Esprix

[Estilicon]

CBEscapee I meant that Cervantes is considered to be the greatest author in all countries that speaks spanish :) Shakespeare never set foot in america (to my knowledge) and yet hes is the greates of all the english writers.

Back to the Op, Chaco if you don't understand satire. I fear there is no place for you on this place, on other news I propose we ban Diogenes the Cynic, he is an strange combination of a cynic and a fundamentalist. Clearly there is no place in here for someone like him :)

[White Lightning]

Originally posted by Estilicon
Shakespeare never set foot in america (to my knowledge) and yet hes is the greates of all the english writers.And would you call him 'Anglo-American'?

[Aleq]

My all time favorite Dame Edna quote: "Lesbianism has always left a very nasty taste in my mouth!"

From "Barry McKenzie Holds His Own," directed by Bruce Beresford and featuring Donald Pleasance as a vampire.

[schplebordnik]

Dame Edna did a bit on NPR the other day where she described her treatment by her gynecologist, who just happened to be Julio Iglesia's father (she pronounced it "Julio INglesias"), with a lot of sexual innuendo. Audio is here:

http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/wesat/20030125.wesat.dameedna.ram

Parts of it are pretty funny (and surprisingly ribald for NPR), and obviously there is one Spanish-speaker who's "help" she particularly enjoys......

[RedFury]

Originally posted by White Lightning
And would you call him 'Anglo-American'?

I think the problem here lies with what seems a direct translation of the word "iberoamericano" which is quite common in spanish to denote just about anything that includes Spain along with the other spanish speaking countries in America. In reverse fashion, I believe estilicon was using it to denote the inclusion of all other spanish speaking countries when describing Cervantes' greatness.

That I know of, the term "ibero-american" while grammatically correct, is not of common usage in English -- thus the ackward-sounding "ibero-american writer." Personally I would have just said "Spanish writer" and left it at that.

It does get a bit more complicated than that, as I've also read 'iberoamericano' used to express that someone/something pertains to a spanish speaking country in the americas -- with the "iberia" part in that case meaning "descendant of" or "culturally related to" the Iberian penisula. And then you could also argue that anything having to do with the Iberian peninsula should also include Portugal. But I ramble...

Which leads me on yet another tangent, what the hell is a 'hispanic' and do I (a Spaniard) qualify as one? After having lived in the US for the better part of ten years, I still have no clue. I've always been a 'Spaniard' (only because 'Spanish' was bastardized as well) but that seemed to cause quite a bit of confusion with many a folk -- something about not fitting into one box or the other. Amusing in an odd sort of way.

Phew...what the hell was I talking about to begin with? Dunno, but I hope whatever I wrote helps someone somehow..and if not, fuck it, may as well post it anyway now that I've got this far ;)

[Guinastasia]

Redfury, I wasn't comparing Dame Edna to Swift. I simply said that satire, for the most part, isn't pretty.

I don't read Dame Edna, and until now, I never knew who she/he was. I still think Chaco is overreacting.

[Silentgoldfish]

The problem I'm having is:

When a man is wearing a glittery dress, a giant green wig, lipstick, eyeshadow, falsies, oouuuutrageous glasses and high heels... why is ANYone taking what he says seriously enough to be offended?

[Redboss]

Hey Redfury[b], how come we never met before? I like your style, old bean!

Can we maybe get together and practice some songs and enter a talent contest ?

I think a medley of "Red Sails in the Sunset", When the Red Red Robin..", "The Lady In Red", "Little Red Corvette" and "Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer" would make a good start. Might get the lovely [b]Ruby to come along as well.

See ya

Redboss













PS Chaco:Right, other (non-red) bastards: Wrong hehehe

[Redboss]

People who think they're too smart to preview.

Sheesh! Sorry.

R

[Mighty_Girl]

Another "Latino" here. Since I don't think it is funny in the least I see why some people are offended by it. Maybe the guy is funny doing his act live but JUDGING BY THIS ONE PIECE he can't write satire for his life.

Now Swift... that's a whole 'nother thing altogether.

[Desmostylus]

Fucking idiot chiming in here. I completely fail to understand it, and so I therefore find it offensive to fucking idiots everywhere.

Fucking idiots of the world unite!

[TheLoadedDog]

Just what we need. More PC sensitivity. Sheesh.

Should I be offended at "White guys can't jump" (or whatever it was), or at Australian convict jokes?

No.

Better to have a laugh at it. Life is too short.

[Ludovic]

I'm with the "clearly satire, but seriously unfunny" camp

[Esprix]

See, that make sense to me - "Yes, it's satire, but I didn't find it funny." Since satire is supposed to offend, taking offense is redundant.

Esprix

[Gary Kumquat]

Originally posted by Ludovic
I'm with the "clearly satire, but seriously unfunny" camp
Out of interest, would Dame Edna be in the "seriously funny but camp" camp?

[RedFury]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Redfury, I wasn't comparing Dame Edna to Swift. I simply said that satire, for the most part, isn't pretty.

I don't read Dame Edna, and until now, I never knew who she/he was. I still think Chaco is overreacting.

Too much ink devoted to this thread already, but it is worth noting that you indeed compared the two.

Take a look at your original statement:

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Chaco, and whatever you do, don't EVER read Swift's A Modest Proposal.

By saying that, you're implicitly comparing the two and suggesting that Swift is the harsher satirist of the two. The bone I am picking has nothing to do with your opinion of each one, but rather the comparison itself.

Want to compare great satirist? Use someone like Cervantes instead, in my mind the greatest of them all. But this Edna character, IMNSHO, is best compared to shock-imbecils like Andrew Dice Clay.

As for the PC charge bullshit some of you are raising, dismissed as totally irrelevant. A good or great satirist or comedian can get away with practically anything -- a hack looking to shock, is just that, a hack looking to shock. Who or what defines each one? Well, *I* fucking do, that's who...and so do you and the rest of the public. And what usually ends up happening is that the rift-raft ends up in anonymity after their ten minutes of fame are over.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that no one remembers a hack like Edna in a few years, while someone truly great like a Bruce Lenny will remain a subject of controversy and discussion for many years to come.

As for the oft expressed criticism in this thread, saying that all satire is offensive in nature, it misses the target of my couterclaim by a country mile. No one -- that I've read here -- is disputing the in your face nature of the gendre. The real contention not being adresses by the torch brigade bunch, is rather simple.

Namely that a satirical piece that misses its mark, as this one obvioulsy did, by crassly perpetuating the stereotypes it is trying to impugn, misses its mark by a country mile.

And yes, not funny can be offensive damn it! Just think it through.

Redboss,

Pleased to make your cyber-acquaintance. I'd missed your first post to the thread when I originally posted my own*, but on second reading of the thread, I must say were the voice of reason in a sea of inequity. And for that, my hat's off to you, sir.

*Mustta been that legendary hot Spanish blood getting the best of me ;)

[RedFury]

PS -- If the readers insert a you between the "must" and "say" in the second to last sentence of my post, and I'd be much obliged.

[Guinastasia]

What? I told him that if he gets offended by satire, no matter what the purpose behind the writing is, he shouldn't read the most famous piece of satire at all?

I didn't say Swift was up there with Dame Edna. The man seems to be offended by ALL satire.

[Lamia]

Originally posted by RedFury

I'll bet dollars to donuts that no one remembers a hack like Edna in a few years,


I wouldn't be so sure, since Dame Edna's been "hacking" for quite a few years already and seems unlikely to give it up soon.

[RedFury]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
What? I told him that if he gets offended by satire, no matter what the purpose behind the writing is, he shouldn't read the most famous piece of satire at all?

I didn't say Swift was up there with Dame Edna. The man seems to be offended by ALL satire.

Don't know where you got that impression. I read all of Cahco's posts and he comes nowhere near being some kind of anti-satire fundie.

In fact, he mentions being a "long-time Onion reader." Being another one myself, that actually says to me that the man has a very keen sense of satire. ;)

As for you saying that the the comparison wasn't made, well, I am not going to get into a protracted he said/she said discussion. What was and wasn't said or implied is out there for everyone to read and discern.

[RedFury]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
What? I told him that if he gets offended by satire, no matter what the purpose behind the writing is, he shouldn't read the most famous piece of satire at all?

I didn't say Swift was up there with Dame Edna. The man seems to be offended by ALL satire.

Don't know where you got that impression. I read all of Chaco's posts and he comes nowhere near being some kind of anti-satire fundie.

In fact, he mentions being a "long-time Onion reader." Being another one myself, that actually says to me that the man has a very keen sense of satire. ;)

As for you saying that the the comparison wasn't made, well, I am not going to get into a protracted he said/she said discussion. What was and wasn't said or implied is out there for everyone to read and discern.

[Otto]

Originally posted by Redboss
Notwithstanding, any australian of my age is well aware that Humphries is deeply conservative and frequently scathing and dismissive on subjects such as empowerment of minorities.
Cite? Having read John Lahr's book and numerous articles on BH and DEE and having read a couple of Dame Edna's books I never came away with the idea that BH himself was "deeply conservative" or particularly opposed or dismissive to the empowerment of minorities. The man's a dadaist, fer heaven's sake, which sort of is the opposite of "conservative."

[Esprix]

Originally posted by RedFury

And what usually ends up happening is that the rift-raft ends up in anonymity after their ten minutes of fame are over.

Heh. "Riff-raff." That's funny. She's been around for years, published several books, had her own television show, has fans worldwide, and she's "riff-raff." No, she's not swift, but puh-lease - get over yourself, Mary. :rolleyes:

I'll bet dollars to donuts that no one remembers a hack like Edna in a few years, while someone truly great like a Bruce Lenny will remain a subject of controversy and discussion for many years to come.

Never heard of Bruce Lenny. Does that make me "riff-raff," too? :rolleyes:

Namely that a satirical piece that misses its mark, as this one obvioulsy did, by crassly perpetuating the stereotypes it is trying to impugn, misses its mark by a country mile.

"Obviously did?" Hardly obvious, my dear boy, since not everyone is in agreement. If it's your opinion, that's fine, but it's hardly "obvious" (and if it were, then it must be "obvious" that you might be the one who missed the mark by that country mile).

Esprix

[Chaco]

I am glad to see that some other people have responded and said that they were offended as well. Even though I get the whole satire thing, it still doesn't sit well with me. I will admit that it was much easier to lighten after I saw a picture of her.

Regardless, I still feel that people would be hurt and offended if I were to throw around racial slurs, stereotypes, amd epithets even if I were to put on a clown outfit and call myself El Chaco Loco.


Thanks RedFury for taking the time to read my responses. You beat me to the Andrew Dice Clay reference. I think most people will agree that he was an unfunny, insensitive prick. Whether that was satire is debatable, but over all his routines were pretty offensive.

You want real PC sensitivity bullshit. Read the Southwest thread. That is truly ridiculous.

Oh, Redboss
pass me that rocket launcher, and those grenades, and I've got your back. We won't go down without a fight.
I just finished reading the news and I might need you afterall, but for protection. :Nervous smilie: Damn, scary times. You must feel lucky to live Australia.

Hmmm......I'm thinking of changing my name to RedChaco:)

My future sig line. Said by RedFury:

Mustta been that legendary hot Spanish blood getting the best of me

Perfectly describes how I started this thread. ;)

[RedFury]

Originally posted by Esprix
Heh. "Riff-raff." That's funny. She's been around for years, published several books, had her own television show, has fans worldwide, and she's "riff-raff." No, she's not swift, but puh-lease - get over yourself, Mary. :rolleyes:

Bully for her/him. But what the fuck does that have to do with the quality of her writing? If the example provided here is any indication of her prowess as a satirist, you're right, I am Mary, Queen of Scots...and Pewee Herman's about to join the pantheon of literary geniuses.


Never heard of Bruce Lenny. Does that make me "riff-raff," too? :rolleyes:

You tell me. All I've seen so far is a tendency to abuse the rolleye smilie. No big whoop, mind you, but good sarcam doesn't need the visual aids.

Get it, dahlin'?

"Obviously did?" Hardly obvious, my dear boy, since not everyone is in agreement. If it's your opinion, that's fine, but it's hardly "obvious" (and if it were, then it must be "obvious" that you might be the one who missed the mark by that country mile).

Exprix

This just in:

"A certain Dame Edna wrote a satirical piece castigating the stereotyping of Hispanics in English speaking countries. Seems like the only ones laughing, are the Anglos she is supposed to be deriding."

BTW, feeling a bit insecure? Or is there really a need to sign your name to each and every post you make?*

*Feel free to insert smilie of your own chosing.



Chaco,

Welcome to the SDMB. Don't let the newbie-bashing affect you. It is hardly representative of the majority of posters here.

I've enjoyed reading your posts and look forward to reading many more.

O sea, frente en alto y ni puto caso al rebaño de ovejas que pretenden dictar como has de reaccionar ante la porqueria de articulo que te llevo a abrir este subforo.

Enjoy the sig!

[Redboss]

Hola muchahas e muchachos!! NON PEGAR EL CABALLO MUERTO!!

el patron rojo

[Esprix]

Redfury, stop - your scathing reparte is killing me here.

:rolleyes: (Just for good measure.)

Dame Edna has an august body of work that speaks literally volumes about why she's so popular - she's funny, she's good at what she does, and she's entertaining. That some people, who don't know anything about her or her work, didn't get her humor for one paragraph when far more did, and then put out petitions against her because of an unintended and unimplied slight... well, that also speaks volumes, but about them, not her.

IMHO, that is. Obviously YMMV. So be it.

Esprix

[Mighty_Girl]

How about the people that won't put out any petition or anythign of the such and STILL think that the piece in question was seriously unfunny? FWIW I read that in another forum where it was presented as a legit thing, I didn't feel particularly offended, just thought the writer was clueless. Then I read it was an attempt at satire and I STILL thought the writer was clueless. Go figure.

BTW, nobody is expecting the Spanish inquisition.

[Desmostylus]

In that case, Mighty_Girl, if you feel strongly enough, you start an IMHO or CafSoc thread about how Barry Humphries isn't a good comedian. No problem there whatsoever. You'd probably get lots of agreement.

That's not the same thing as starting a pit thread about Dame Edna Everage, who, as I'm sure you know by now, does not exist as a real person.

And please note, I'm not having another shot at Chaco, I believe that Chaco performed well in this thread once the initial confusion was cleared.

[Mac Guffin]

Is redboss talking about Lenny Bruce? Is that who he is trying to name?

Who the hell is Bruce Lenny?

[Mighty_Girl]

Originally posted by Desmostylus
In that case, Mighty_Girl, if you feel strongly enough, you start an IMHO or CafSoc thread about how Barry Humphries isn't a good comedian. No problem there whatsoever. You'd probably get lots of agreement.

That's not the same thing as starting a pit thread about Dame Edna Everage, who, as I'm sure you know by now, does not exist as a real person.I don't feel strongly enough to start a thread in IMHO or CafeSoc or anywhere. I am just (like you) giving my opinion on the matter in a thread that somebody else started. Notice I said I am not particularly offended. I not even particularly interested in the matter, there is real racism out there that should be fought against.

[Esprix]

Mighty_Girl, as I said, saying "Yes, I realize it's satire, but I still think it's not funny," makes sense - not everyone finds the same things funny. But taking offense at a comedic character whose premise is her cluelessness and lack of sensitivity is, well, a lot of hot air, IMHO.

Esprix

[RedFury]

Originally posted by Esprix
Mighty_Girl, as I said, saying "Yes, I realize it's satire, but I still think it's not funny," makes sense - not everyone finds the same things funny. But taking offense at a comedic character whose premise is her cluelessness and lack of sensitivity is, well, a lot of hot air, IMHO.

Esprix

Fair 'nuff. I'm willing to chalk it up to a difference of opinion and leave the hot air out of it.

As the Patron Rojo said, and I paraphrase, "este caballo no come mas pienso."

Look forward to arguing with you in some other thread.

[Estilicon]

"Este caballo no come mas pienso" Huh?

[Tony Barber's Underwear]

I was a lot happier before I knew Dame Edna was a man. A lot happier.

- Bubba.

[RedFury]

Originally posted by Estilicon
"Este caballo no come mas pienso" Huh?

Pienso = feed. A blend of corn, barley, soy and different additives given to farm animals -- mostly for cattle and horses. Not sure if it's a word indigenous to Spain. You might have a different name for it.

Pienso Vacas de leche (http://www.rastefutt.com/pienso_vacas.htm)

[GIGObuster]

Originally posted by Redboss
Hola muchahas e muchachos!! NON PEGAR EL CABALLO MUERTO!!

el patron rojo
Should be:

¡ Hola chicas y chicos !! ¡NO LE PEGEN AL CABALLO MUERTO!!

:D

And it sounds better if you say: El Jefe Rojo

That would make a :cool: handle I think.

[Erroneous]

It may interest some people to know that Damn Edna was on the news here tonight, in a piece on how she's returned to Australia to do some local shows. She did respond to the allegations of racism that tarnished her American tour. As near as I can remember, her exact words were:

I'm not a racist. I love all races equally. Especially white people.

So it's all tied up neatly now.

[Richard Pearse]

Yes, she also made some comment on Celebrity Who Wants to be a Millionaire that it can be awfully tedious when people need humour explained to them, or something like that.

[sailor]

I guess I missed this thread the first time around. You can put me down with those who see nothing to be offended about but clearly some people don't get it. As the commercial for the Washington Post goes: "If you don't get it, you don't get it". That seems to be the problem here. Maybe the difference is that I have seen Dame Edna on TV a number of times and know the character. Anyone who is familiar with the character will understand. I think Archie Bunker is a good comparison. If you don't know the character and just read an excerted quote you can get the wrong idea.