Why does honey not spoil?

[Aslan of Narnia]

I read that it doesn't spoil, and that honey from 400 years ago would probably as fresh as the day it was made. Why?

[Mangetout]

Strong sugar solutions are quite a hostile environment for bacteria; osmosis (the transfer of solvents from a weak solution to a stronger one) through the cell membranes dehydrates and kills them.

[smiling bandit]

Honey has even been used as an anti-germ weapon. I think the Egyptions, under the medical studies of High Priest Imhotep (yes, THAT Imhotep), used it in recorded history. presumably, it was a folk remedy before that.

[Rie]

Honey is still used by some of us homeopathic freaks as a salve for cuts and burns. And combined with peanut butter, it makes a tasty sandwich. Try THAT with Bactine.

[Mangetout]

I forgot to mention that social insects also often secrete antibiotic compounds; I wouldn't be surprised to learn that compounds are found in honey.

[Meatros]

Originally posted by Aslan2
I read that it doesn't spoil, and that honey from 400 years ago would probably as fresh as the day it was made. Why?

I've heard this too, on an email "fact list". I'm pretty sure it's mostly true-honey doesn't spoil. That being said it does chrystalize, making honey retrieval from the bottom of a big plastic bear rather difficult as I found out this weekend. In other words, I don't think that honey from 400 years ago would be fresh.

[Mangetout]

Originally posted by Meatros
That being said it does chrystalize, making honey retrieval from the bottom of a big plastic bear rather difficult as I found out this weekend.Tip: pop said bear into the microwave for a few seconds and Bob will most assuredly be your uncle.

[Dunderman]

Originally posted by Aslan2
I read that it doesn't spoil, and that honey from 400 years ago would probably as fresh as the day it was made. Why?
Sod 400... edible honey has been found inside Egyptian pyramids, thousands of years old. Honey doesn't spoil, but it does segment (I believe that's the correct word, English not being my primary language) which you can see in jars of honey even after a relatively short while. Give it a go with a wooden spoon and soon you'll have perfectly good honey again.

[Meatros]

Originally posted by Mangetout
Tip: pop said bear into the microwave for a few seconds and Bob will most assuredly be your uncle.

Crap! Where were you over the weekend when I figured it'd be better to buy a whole new bear? :D

Grumble...It's okay, the new bear loves me just the same...Granted I haven't taken out his insides and smeared them on an english muffin yet...

[Turek]

Ok, someone explain the whole honey/botulism relationship, please.

[Popup]

Originally posted by Priceguy
Sod 400... edible honey has been found inside Egyptian pyramids, thousands of years old. Honey doesn't spoil, but it does segment
The word you were looking for was sediment, yes?
If so, almost, but not quite correct.

What happens to honey during aging is that the sugar crystalises. The water content of honey varies, but is around 15%. This means that we have a very strong solution of sugar in water,and it can easily become a supercritical solution.
What can happen is that the sugar forms crystals with an even lower water content. The remaining liquid will thus have a higher water content, and it might even be high enough for microbes to survive. This cite (http://www.itdg.org/html/technical_enquiries/docs/honey_processing.pdf)(PDF) claims that a water content of 19% is enough for it to start fermenting.
One way to reverse the crystalization is to heat up the honey. Warm water can hold much more sugar without crystals forming.
One way to prevent crystalization of all the sugar is to form artificial crystalisation nuclei, by stirring the honey. This will break up existing crystals, and the resulting solution will contain many suspended mini-crystals, but will not form into larger crystals. It will look a bit cloudy, but don't worry.

[jonpluc]

Originally posted by Mangetout
Strong sugar solutions are quite a hostile environment for bacteria; osmosis (the transfer of solvents from a weak solution to a stronger one) through the cell membranes dehydrates and kills them.

IANAS<ientist> but mange....may i call you Mange? Anyway i believe you accidentally reversed the definition of osmosis

[Popup]

Originally posted by Turek
Ok, someone explain the whole honey/botulism relationship, please.
Well, according to this (http://www.nhb.org/foodtech/tgloss.html#sectI), it's not a very common problem, but might be one for infants:nfant botulism is a rare but serious paralytic disease caused by the microorganism Clostridium botulinum. After ingestion, C. botulinum spores can germinate, grow and produce toxin in the lower bowel of some infants under one year of age. C. botulinum spores are widely distributed in nature. They can be found in soil, dust, the air and raw agricultural products. Honey is also a potential source of C. botulinum spores. Infants are susceptible to infant botulism until their intestinal microflora develop. Children and adults with normal intestinal microflora are able to ingest C. botulinum spores without harm. The National Honey Board, along with other health organizations, recommends that honey not be fed to infants under one year of age.

There are also other health issues with honey. The bees collect fluids secreted by plants, and some of them are dangerous to us, but not to the bees. I don't remember exactly what circumstances to avoid, but you can find it all in On Food and Cooking, by Harold McGee.

[Popup]

Originally posted by jonpluc
IANAS<ientist> but mange....may i call you Mange? Anyway i believe you accidentally reversed the definition of osmosis
I think he pretty much nailed it. Here is Merriam-Websters take:Main Entry: os*mo*sis
1 : movement of a solvent through a semipermeable membrane (as of a living cell) into a solution of higher solute concentration that tends to equalize the concentrations of solute on the two sides of the membrane

Sounds to me very much like the transfer of solvents from a weak solution to a stronger one

Or did I miss something?

[Mangetout]

Originally posted by jonpluc
IANAS<ientist> but mange....may i call you Mange? Anyway i believe you accidentally reversed the definition of osmosis

Nope; maybe you're thinking of Reverse Osmosis? - a process commonly used to get drinkable water from seawater? - in this case, the solvent does indeed move from the stronger solution to the weaker one, but that's because the natural osmotic pressure is overcome by applying external pressure to the stronger solution.

[LordVor]

I think jonpluc may have misread "transfer of solvents". The 'solvent' is the thing that other things disolve in. Therefore, when you have two solvents (water, in this example) separated by a membrane (bug cells), and one has a high concentration of a substance (sugar, in the case of honey) and the other (the bug) has a low concentration, the solvent from the low concentration will seap into the higher concentration in an attempt to equalize the concentration.

The sugar stays put, the water moves across the membrane.

-lv

[handy]

"Strong sugar solutions are quite a hostile environment for bacteria"

Don't certain bacteria feed on sugar?

[Mangetout]

Many bacteria feed on sugar, but if the concentration is too high, they are unable to do so because the osmotic pressure between the fluid inside the bacterial cell and the honey outside is such that the water migrates through the cell membrane and out of the bacteria; without sufficient fluid inside the bacterial cell, the cell dies.

[jonpluc]

Lordvor was correct i did misread the solvents part as being the object and not the liquid its dissolved in. My apologies :)

[Washte]

homeopathic freaks checking in here.

Honey is fantastic on cuts. As is cayenne pepper and spiderwebbing, but there ya go.

Be very careful of zapping the bear in the microwave though, Meatros. It heats up very quickly and you'll risk melting the bear (making a massive gooey mess) and the steam/heat of the honey will scald the skin of you quicker than a gnat can bat its eyelashes.

[levdrakon]

Originally posted by Washte
Honey is fantastic on cuts. As is cayenne pepper and spiderwebbing, but there ya go.
Spiderwebbing? How does that work?

[Derleth]

Wouldn't anything that keeps out germs and dirt work great on cuts?

[Washte]

From www.endtimesreport.com/homerem.html Spiderwebs contain a substance that is very effective in stopping bleeding and preventing infection. Applying a wad of spiderweb to a fresh cut will stop the bleeding and has been used for that purpose for ages.

I've read it in a survival book ages and ages ago. I'll do more checking and see if I can find the exact properties if you're interested.

Yes, Derleth, anything that keeps out dirt and germs works great on cuts. However, if you're hiking through the woods and cut yourself, knowing such tricks and hints can be very useful.

[Tamex]

Originally posted by Washte
Be very careful of zapping the bear in the microwave though, Meatros. It heats up very quickly and you'll risk melting the bear (making a massive gooey mess) and the steam/heat of the honey will scald the skin of you quicker than a gnat can bat its eyelashes.

Don't put the bear in the microwave. Instead, put the bear in a cup or bowl of hot water. (Much safer that way!) You'll need to do this every time you want to use the honey, though, as it will crystalize again when it cools.

I saved my sister-in-law's honey bear a few weeks ago by using that trick! (Sorry, Meatros--I guess I can't save them all :). )

[handy]

When people mention honey I mention bee vomit. Hilarious.

[SojournerSamson]

My new "little honey bear" has a bee included. Some wag tried to convince me every container of that brand features a bee, meant to be consumed, in imitation of a Tequila worm.

[Meatros]

Originally posted by Washte
Be very careful of zapping the bear in the microwave though, Meatros. It heats up very quickly and you'll risk melting the bear (making a massive gooey mess) and the steam/heat of the honey will scald the skin of you quicker than a gnat can bat its eyelashes.

I hadn't even considered the possible damage to my bear's skin. A steamy pile of goo would hardly go good on an english muffin...

Tamex-Don't worry about it. One bear might have died, but thanks to the advice on this thread, countless generations of bears will live...at least as long as it takes me to suck out their life-force...hehehehe....

[Smeghead]

It all comes down to water activity, a measure of how much water is available for growth in a substance. Honey has lots of sugar, which is a good food source, but it has very little water available. Microorganisms require a water activity of about 0.6 or higher to grow (pure water has an activity of 1.0). Honey has an activity of, aw crap, I forget, but it's a little lower than 0.6. Some unusually tough fungi have been known to grow on honey, but it's uncommon and it takes a long time.

As for the botulism thingy, the main thing there is that honey is about the only agricultural product that isn't processed before it's sold. There's no pasteruization or other type of heat treatment, because no process has been developed yet that can make it any safer without ruining it. And before someone asks how botulism grows in honey when nothing else can, it doesn't. The spores can contaminate the honey and just remain there, dormant and waiting for a chance to grow again in your gut.

As a side note, most processed foods go through what's called a "12-D" process. In other words, a process that will kill 99.9999999999% of any botulism spores that may be present. Kinda puts a new perspective on those cleaners that kill 99.9% of germs.

[Duckster]

Originally posted by Mangetout
Strong sugar solutions are quite a hostile environment for bacteria; osmosis (the transfer of solvents from a weak solution to a stronger one) through the cell membranes dehydrates and kills them.

Is that why Bobby Goldsboro's hit is still sickly sweet after 35 years?

:D

[Duckster]

Originally posted by Mangetout
Strong sugar solutions are quite a hostile environment for bacteria; osmosis (the transfer of solvents from a weak solution to a stronger one) through the cell membranes dehydrates and kills them.

Is that why Bobby Goldsboro's hit is still sickly sweet after 35 years?

:D

[Duckster]

Not as sickly sweet as a double post. :smack:

[Lodrain]

Originally posted by Popup
The word you were looking for was sediment, yes?
If so, almost, but not quite correct.


More likely he meant 'ferment'. I'm sure honey could, if asked nicely.

[Derleth]

Lodrain: Honey ferments if you add water, and then you have mead. Best drunk out of a drinking horn while singing loudly and off-key about those Thor-damned Britons and your country's beautiful fucking fijords.

Bonus points if you work in a verse about spam. :D

[Popup]

Originally posted by Lodrain
More likely he meant 'ferment'. I'm sure honey could, if asked nicely.
Maybe.
And if you had read the rest of my post, I pointed out that honey will indeed ferment once the water content increases above 19%. There are natural yeast cells present in honey, so in theory you only need honey and water to make mead (as pointed out by Derleth), but in practice these natural yeast cells are killed by (limited) pasteurization, and replaced with carefully selected strains.