did the whole nine yards issue ever get resolved

[jimbotheclown]

the original column was right here. http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_252.html

[C K Dexter Haven]

The most recent thinking, not as yet disproved, is that it has to do with the ammunition belts in WWII fighter planes. The obstacle to that theory is that the term doesn't appear in print until about 1962 (give or take a year, I'm working from memory)... so, why would a "common phrase" take over 15 years to appear in print?

So, it's still up in the air, unless someone finds an earlier print citation or a different explanation.

[Nametag]

Dex, has anyone actually ponied up a WWII surplus ammo belt, to see if it's actually 9 yards long? I tried to do this, but all I could find on line was ammo boxes, and without knowing more about the ammunition itself, I couldn't tell whether they were big enough to hold a nine yard belt.

[Czarcasm]

It wouldn't really matter how long a WWII surplus ammo belt was, because I'm pretty sure I could find literally thousands of things throughout history that were approximately 9 yards long. The earliest reference I could find was from the early 1970s, and it contained no clue whatsoever as to the origin of the phrase.

[Rube E. Tewesday]

I think a serious argument against the ammo belt theory is, that at the time Cecil wrote the column, no one even seemed to be suggesting it. It only seems to have become popular in the last few years, when the WWII generation is largely gone, along with their slang. If it really did originate amongst the thousands and thousands of WWII aviators, that should have been known fairly early. Look at the feedback Cecil got on "in like Flynn".

[C K Dexter Haven]

Well, we did have a letter from one person who said that his father remembers it from WWII... but when I wrote back asking for more info, could we talk to the father, etc, there was no response.

[samclem]

Actually, the current thinking (by people who actually try to find proof for things) is that it has NOTHING to do with ammo belts. The argument is that, if this were a WWII phrase, why would it only appear in print in 1966? And there are more well-reasoned arguments against it than that.

It is cited in print only from 1966. There has never been a verifiable print reference to exactly "what" the nine yards means.

There are more threads about this on the board than you can read in a sittting, I'm sure. Search for them if you are brave.

[Nametag]

Sorry but I find a 20-year lag in print references to be wholly unsatisfactory as proof. It could easily take one man's quip 20 years to find its way into the hands of an author. If the story is true, it needn't have been on everyone's lips, just those of the man who first said it.

And Czarcasm, I don't believe there are thousands of things that could reasonably be the source of this expression; the item would have to be something which (1) has a whole of nine yards; and (2) might otherwise be only partially "given." If the original expression is "Give it (him) the whole nine yards," then a third requirement would be that the item must be something which is "given" in some sense. A nine-foot ammunition belt would fit these requirements -- what else would?

[Czarcasm]

Nine yards of cement.
Nine yards of fabric to make a men's suit.
Nine yards of fabric to make a kilt.
Nine yards run to make a touchdown pass(if said sarcastically).
Nine yards of canvas to make a sail.
Nine yards of pipe to install a shower and toilet.
Nine yards of wiring in a transistor radio.
Nine yards of antenna wire to make a decent looped shortwave antenna.
Nine yards of (insert what grampa told you here) to (insert the rest of what grampa told you here.)

[jimbotheclown]

could i get the source of the reference, please?

[Nametag]

But Czarcasm, all of those are demonstrably false. If we can demonstrate the falsity of the ammo story, then it will belong on that list. If we can't demostrate its falsity, then it will remain the one story that hasn't been thoroughly debunked.

[jimbotheclown]

please don't misunderstand me, i don't mean to be so impetuous(sp?), but the Nine yards run to make a touchdown pass(if said sarcastically) idea seems plausible enough. true, there are no known citations used like this, but then again, as far as i see, there aren't for any other either.[

[jimbotheclown]

i don't mean to be so impetuous(sp?), but
:smack: excuse me. that should say i don't mean to be so impetuous(sp?) to say that i know the answer when twenty years worth of thought has come up with naught but theories, but:

[samclem]

You're right. The fact that the phrase didn't surface for 20 years after WWII isn't enough proof by itself.

A good discussion by a professional, Jesse Sheidlower, occured over at the Maven's Word of the Day (http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19971128). It's about as dispassionate as one can be on the subject, and Mr. Sheidlower, currently the Senior American editor of the OED, is one of the brighter lights out there.

Sheidlower also brings up the point that the "ammo belt" theory is rather a recent one and doesn't bode well for the phrase to have been used(common?) in WWII.

[SavageNarce]

What says that there was anything specific that the phrase originally referenced? We also say things like "the whole shebang" and no-one gets their underwear in a knot about what a "shebang" is and how much stuff constitiutes a "whole" one! :)

[C K Dexter Haven]

We won't go into the possibilities of breaking "she-bang" down into its component syllables...

[Cervaise]

What's the possibility that at the time it was coined, it was just a funny-sounding turn of phrase, and was never intended to refer to anything specifically at all?

I'm thinking, for comparison, of the expression, "I'll buy that for a dollar."

Fifty years from now, are people going to be tearing out their hair, trying to figure out what dollar-priced item was the original source for the phrase?

[C K Dexter Haven]

It's certainly possible, Cervaise. But the phrase is so specific -- nine yards. A generalized origin such as you suggest would more likely have been "the whole yard" or "the whole mile" or "the whole acre" -- such as the term "go the extra mile."

It is also possible that the phrase gained popularity because people related it to American football, even if that wasn't the origin.

In any case, the experts are baffled to date.

[jimbotheclown]

A generalized origin such as you suggest would more likely have been "the whole yard" or "the whole mile" or "the whole acre" -- such as the term "go the extra mile."
i don't really understand this comment C K. did you mean by it that the term 'go the extra mile' has no specific origin, it just cropped up as 'the whole yard' or 'the whole mile' could have just as easily? if so, let me assure you, the term has an origin, and an old one, too. the origin is two thousand years old, give or take a few decades.(mt 5:41)

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

Dex doesn't read that section. ;)

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

"I'll buy that for a dollar" doesn't crop up until the film ROBO-COP, I'll wager, and then after that point it's a common enough phrase in print.

[Steven_G]

I disagree that the specificity ("nine") excludes a casual/funny/ironic origin.
I have been in company with many groups of friends where part of the joke is the pointless specificity. Its along the same lines a catch-phrases

e.g.

"I'd go the extra yard to put him down!"
"Yard? I'd go a whole nine yards!"

After that the stupid statement sticks for a while. Very common in student groups and military.

I'm not saying this is the origin, just that given that it TWNY emerged early 60's, and no-one has ever really tied it down to a particular profession or object, that this explanation is as good as any (and better than most).

[Beruang]

Originally posted by Nametag
Sorry but I find a 20-year lag in print references to be wholly unsatisfactory as proof. It could easily take one man's quip 20 years to find its way into the hands of an author. If the story is true, it needn't have been on everyone's lips, just those of the man who first said it.

The problem (or one of the problems) with the 20-year lag is that WWII was an intensely-covered event. There were lots of journalists talking to the troops. There were lots of books and lots of movies, both during the war and after. Lots of memiors and "soldier's stories" and "letters from the front." If the phrase was common usage in the war, it would have made its way into the language much sooner, along with other war slang.

-- Beruang

[Zebra]

Has any sports journalists been asked about the football/ironic theory? It may be a quote from a coach that may be recalled.

[pHabala]

Just a little note regarding the ammo belt theory. Ammo belts were not 9 yards long, because each type of an airplane used different lengths of belts, and there was even a difference in length in an individual airplane. In particular, belt-fed guns that were outboard used to have shorter belts than inboard guns. I have been interested all my life in WW2 aviation, I've read dozens of memoirs by pilots and I never came across this phrase. So I rather doubt this origin.

I've heard another theory along these lines. Machine gunners used to carry certain lengths of ammo belts. When they wanted to say that some target was tough, they would say "I gave it whole nine yards." Given that it appeared in print in 1966, it could come from Vietnam war or Korean war. I actually heard this explanation some time ago in a documentary, from an actual soldier, but did not pay attention then, so I can't supply details.

I actually suspect that we will never know the truth :-).

[kaylasdad99]

Originally published by Cecil Adams
. . . I am not interested in your freaking opinions. I want facts.

Since none appear to be forthcoming, we will declare this discussion closed until such time as I can go investigate myself. This is the last time I ask you guys for anything.
Impressionable youth that I was when I first read that in 1989, I held off on contributing to the issue, out of fear that Cecil would hunt me down and punish me for my temerity.

Some fourteen years later, we have the Internet, and message boards, and I can see absolute dozens of people (that was hyperbole, I admit) merrily posting away, submitting more unsupported guesses, heedless of the Cecilian consequences that await them. While one part of my mind is saying, "uuuuhhhmmmmm, those guys are going to get it," another part is saying, "The more, the merrier!" So here I go.

I note that "yards" can refer not only to units of linear dimension (or area, or volume), but also to facilities dedicated to the storage of materials (lumberyards) or machinery (equipment yards), or to the construction of ocean-going vessels (shipyards). This suggests that a society in need of an all-out effort by an industry to attain a crucial goal could be said to throw a certain number of "yards" into the effort. Is there any recorded instance of a municipality, state, or nation having nine lumberyards, equipment yards, and/or shipyards, that might conceivably be pressed into service for the purpose of contributing to a societal effort toward some goal?

Wholly hypothetical example follows. Please ignore all inaccuracies of a historical, geographic, and industrial nature:"Fearing attack by the Kaiser, the King of England ordered the cities of Portsmouth, Newcastle, and Manchester, each possessing three shipyards, to dedicate their entire capacity to the production of warships. Ever patriotic, the cities threw the whole nine yards into the war effort, for King and country."

[Irishman]

kaylasdad99, your example fails because the phrase doesn't sound right. That would be better as "threw all nine yards behind the effort". The whole suggests a certain kind of measuring, doling out length.

A similar theory put forth neglected above is that sailing ships called the beams that carried the sails yards. So the whole nine yards referred to a sailing vessel rigging all its sails. That theory fails for the same reason, plus the fact that there were never any vessels with just nine yards for sails. And, of course, if it were from sailing vessels you'd expect it to be from the 18th or 19th centuries.

[Rocket]

Here's a promising lead from one of the other threads that the research was never completed on. I think the range of dates for the quote was supposedly between the late 1840's and early 1860's

Originally posted by thewebsurfer
Hi,

I can't believe someone British doesn't know the answer to this question.

I do, and it goes way back. In post-Industrial Revolution Britain a big problem arose. After beating the pants off their continental competition in the manufacture of cotton cloth by undercutting prices thanks to machine-manufacturing, tarriffs were raised across Europe to protect domestic producers. The Brit's were left with a lot of unsold cloth, mills closed, the unemployed were left to starve and there was "civil unrest".

A British politician, Disraeli, stood before Parliment and proclaimed that if nine yards of cotton cloth could be sold to every peasant in China not only would the problem be solved, but fortunes made.

The power and scope of the British Empire was on the rise in the 1860's or so and to him, at least, this seemed possible. (Many businessmen have made the same mistake subsequently.) Of course, he was wrong.

His detractors mocked him by saying something like "If only we could get the whole nine yards".

Kevin

[samclem]

Rocket. I still look for that (supposed) quote by Disraeli from time to time. I spent a few hours looking for it at the time the thread was active. And it's still intriguing.

The only problem is, if Disraeli made the quote, why did it not occur in print until 1966 in the US? It certainly wasn't on the lips of everyone as a catchphrase.

[C K Dexter Haven]

I've also seen ads from a supposed Scottish firm making kilts that says that they make them from the whole nine yards. However, the ads are recent, and I suspect they were taking advantage of the (disproved) origin theory.

[CalMeacham]

"I'll buy that for a dollar" doesn't crop up until the film ROBO-COP, I'll wager, and then after that point it's a common enough phrase in print.



And I strongly suspect that RoboCop got the phrase from C.M. Kornbluth's short story "The Marching Morons", in which the TV host's catchphrase is "Would you buy that for a quarter?" (adjusted for inflation). (The world of RoboCop seems not far removed from those of the "corporate" science fiction of Kornbluth's story, and of Kornbluth and Pohl's classic SF novel "The Space Merchants".) So future language mavens would be doubly removed from the quote source.

[LurkMeister]

Thank you, Cal! This has been driving me nuts for the last week; I knew I had read "Would you buy that for a quarter?" in an SF context long before Robocop, but could not for the life of me remember where. All I could remember was it being used as a catchphrase in a future society, where it was repeated to the point of annoyance.

[MonkeyMensch]

Amd just to throw this in for what it's worth, from pHabala's post and the reference from Sheidlower's site (which I enjoy), the length of the fairly common P-51's ammo belt was around 27 feet. That consists of 400 .50 rounds. Yeah, I know that the inboard and outboard guns were 270 rounds, but when the armorers were laying out the ammo, it had to be linked up to form the longest length. It gets my vote anyway. There has been more than a few terms from the military, after all.

[Irishman]

On the "I'd buy that for a dollar" origin, I thought it was The Running Man with Arnold Swarzeneggar, not RoboCop. Richard Dawson plays a smarmy game show host, and uses that catch phrase related to some advertisment, IIRC.

Not that it didn't come from KornBluth, just getting the pop culture reference correct.

[malduff]

Amd just to throw this in for what it's worth, from pHabala's post and the reference from Sheidlower's site (which I enjoy), the length of the fairly common P-51's ammo belt was around 27 feet. That consists of 400 .50 rounds. Yeah, I know that the inboard and outboard guns were 270 rounds, but when the armorers were laying out the ammo, it had to be linked up to form the longest length. It gets my vote anyway. There has been more than a few terms from the military, after all.

This is the explanation that I have heard (and prefer) for the phrase.

Sure, I have no evidence but I do have two clues;

Firstly, the word "whole" in the phrase would - to my mind - point to an American origin.

Secondly, a lot of the posts ignore that the phrase includes at the start "I Gave him..." or "Give it...." which seems to preclude American Football as it would be phrased as "Go..." even if it was sarcastic/ironic. It also knocks out many of the explanations which rely on "getting" or "having" the whole nine yards.

"Giving him/it the whole nine yards" is something that was done to someone or something else.


Just my two yen worth......

Mal

[rfgdxm]

Hmm...

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19971128

"The phrase is first found, to my knowledge, in 1966. (An unreliable book has claimed that it dates from the 1950s, which is itself not that implausible.)"

"The phrase is an Americanism."

If the earliest source is 1966, and military, then odds are really high it comes from Vietnam. If the phrase originated in the military in WWII, and carried over into the Vietnam era, almost surely it would have appeared in print somewhere before 1966. The whole consciousness of the nation in WWII was focused around the war. The odds of it originating in WWII, and not appearing in a news article, a history of the war, etc. around the time seems all kinds of hard to believe. However, during Vietnam the protests tended to get more coverage than the war. I'd tend to dismiss the theory it comes from WWII unless someone can find a source before 1966.

The other likely source if it is an Americanism is football. Football has been popular in the US for quite a while. If the source does come from football, then I'd expect the vast majority of early citations to be from sports reporters, etc. Has anyone ever documented the context the phrase was found in print the first 10 times or so?

There's 15 minutes of fame waiting for anyone at the SDMB if they can find print source using this phrase prior to 1966. ;)

[Exapno Mapcase]

You really didn't have to revive this thread when this one's (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=254889) last post is only three days old.

[DrDeth]

Nine yards of cement.
Nine yards of fabric to make a men's suit.
Nine yards of fabric to make a kilt.
Nine yards run to make a touchdown pass(if said sarcastically).
Nine yards of canvas to make a sail.
Nine yards of pipe to install a shower and toilet.
Nine yards of wiring in a transistor radio.
Nine yards of antenna wire to make a decent looped shortwave antenna.


But Czarcasm, all of those are demonstrably false. If we can demonstrate the falsity of the ammo story, then it will belong on that list. If we can't demostrate its falsity, then it will remain the one story that hasn't been thoroughly debunked.

No- the concrete version is so far the best and has not been disproven, I agree with Cece in that it is not very romantic, but it is still "good".

[rfgdxm]

No- the concrete version is so far the best and has not been disproven, I agree with Cece in that it is not very romantic, but it is still "good".
Sounds dubious to me. The ready-mix concrete business isn't something the average person has much contact with. Strange source for a term to enter the general language. Best evidence for the concrete story is if a large percentage of the earliest citations were using it in relation to concrete. The military argument seems more plausible. Soldiers come from all parts of the country, and their jargon can make it into general language around the country when they return home. However, if it does come from the military then the earliest citation from 1966 strongly points to the Vietnam war.

[DrDeth]

I agree it's dubious- but it's better than anything else to date.

And we didn't have P51's or P48's in Veitnam. The Jets had cannons, not MGs'. So if it that late- it certainly does not refer to "belts of mg ammon from fighters".

Now, if you can show me that the standard "box" on .50 MG ammo came in 9 yards (which MG's were commonly hanging out the windows on the Hueys, and so were the MG1 .30), then I'd say "sounds good". But all that ammo came in metal ammo cans- many of which are still extant. And if the typical "ammo can" belt of .30 or .50 MG ammo was 9 yards long- we would have heard that by now. I don't remember the length of the belts myself- my experiance being mainly in the use of Agent Orange, etc.

[byomtoob]

Sounds dubious to me. The ready-mix concrete business isn't something the average person has much contact with. Strange source for a term to enter the general language. Best evidence for the concrete story is if a large percentage of the earliest citations were using it in relation to concrete. The military argument seems more plausible. Soldiers come from all parts of the country, and their jargon can make it into general language around the country when they return home. However, if it does come from the military then the earliest citation from 1966 strongly points to the Vietnam war.

But suppose it entered the general language through an amusing public usage.

/urban legend warning

The way I heard it was that this came up during a divorce proceding. Something along the lines of a cement truck driver returning home and finding his wife in bed with someone else. As he stalked off in anger, he decided to pour cement into the convertible owned by his wife's lover.

After he relayed this, the judge asked him how much cement he'd poured into the car -- his answer: "the whole nine yards".

The courtroom erupts in laughter and all attendees share this with their friends.

See http://www.snopes.com/love/revenge/concrete.asp for more info.

/urban legend warning end

Note that this also addresses the issue of variability in cement mixers. This version only requires us to assume that the driver knew the size of the particular truck he was using on that day.

Does this do anything for anybody? Okay, I know its based on a verifiable urban legend, but this was the way I learned the thing.

[samclem]

I'm sure we've recounted this in many threads devoted to this topic during the past 5 years. Search for them.

The phrase first appears in print in a semi-fictional book called Doom Pussy, written by Elaine Shepard, a US news reporter. She was one of the few female correspondants in Vietnam at that time. She actually lived(and loved?) with many of the Air Force flyers whom she weaves into her novel. One of her characters uses the phrase three times in the book, if my memory serves me. The next cite in print that has been found so far is from an Air Force Academy paper in 1968. The third oldest cite has been found recently by researcher Fred Shapiro. It appears in, of all things, a real estate advertisment in the Ft. Walton Beach paper in 1969. Interestingly, this is home of the Elgin Air Force Base in Florida.

So, we have three original cites, in three succesive years, all tied to the US Air Force.

Surprisingly, the Concrete Trucker's News* didn't use it once in that time frame. :rolleyes:

*If there truly is such a publication, I apologize to them.

[rfgdxm]

So, we have three original cites, in three succesive years, all tied to the US Air Force.
Based on that, I'd say at this moment that is very strong evidence that it originates from the USAF.

[DrDeth]

I'm sure we've recounted this in many threads devoted to this topic during the past 5 years. Search for them.

The phrase first appears in print in a semi-fictional book called Doom Pussy, written by Elaine Shepard, a US news reporter. She was one of the few female correspondants in Vietnam at that time. She actually lived(and loved?) with many of the Air Force flyers whom she weaves into her novel. One of her characters uses the phrase three times in the book, if my memory serves me. The next cite in print that has been found so far is from an Air Force Academy paper in 1968. The third oldest cite has been found recently by researcher Fred Shapiro. It appears in, of all things, a real estate advertisment in the Ft. Walton Beach paper in 1969. Interestingly, this is home of the Elgin Air Force Base in Florida.

So, we have three original cites, in three succesive years, all tied to the US Air Force.




It could well have originated in the Vietnam Era Air Force. But if it did- it had nothing to do with the length of MG belts being loaded into P51's and such like, and they had been out of use for 20 years or so by then. What we'd need to see is how long the belts of 20mm cannon shells were in the Phantoms & suchlike then being used.

Of course, I will point out that the Air Force uses a lot of comcrete.... :p

[Kilt-wearin' man]

Of course, I will point out that the Air Force uses a lot of comcrete.... :p

Yeah, but I defy you to land an F-4 Phantom on a 27 foot runway...

[Corii]

Even the Word Detective is stumped by this one!

http://www.word-detective.com/back-s.html#yards

[Czarcasm]

I'm not claiming that this has anything at all to do with the actual origin of the phrase, but when I was in the Air Force back in the mid '70s, we would send the newbies out to pick up such things as "prop wash" and "extra flight line" from the supply sergeant. When they asked how much flight line they should pick up, we would tell them to tell the sergeant we needed the whole nine yards. :p

[CurtC]

Secondly, a lot of the posts ignore that the phrase includes at the start "I Gave him..." or "Give it...." which seems to preclude American Football as it would be phrased as "Go..." even if it was sarcastic/ironic. It also knocks out many of the explanations which rely on "getting" or "having" the whole nine yards.In the common way that I've always heard the phrase, it is simply "the whole nine yards" without any reference to giving. As in "he put all he owned into the truck - the TV, the sofa, all his bedroom furniture, the whole nine yards." I don't know that I've ever heard someone say that they were going to give the whole nine yards.

[adirondack_mike]

I don't know. I woke up this morning a little hung over and when I read this thread this time I though of a Yogi-ism. (http://www.yogi-berra.com/yogiisms.html) .

[DanBlather]

Of course, I will point out that the Air Force uses a lot of comcrete.... :pIs that what you call it when it dries out on the bedsheet? :)

[HawkStar]

Amd just to throw this in for what it's worth, from pHabala's post and the reference from Sheidlower's site (which I enjoy), the length of the fairly common P-51's ammo belt was around 27 feet. That consists of 400 .50 rounds. Yeah, I know that the inboard and outboard guns were 270 rounds, but when the armorers were laying out the ammo, it had to be linked up to form the longest length. It gets my vote anyway. There has been more than a few terms from the military, after all.

I had no idea that there was such a hot debate on this matter until I looked up this website to prove to my colleagues that the P-51 Mustang origin was the correct one. I had never even heard of another theory of its origin.

Just a couple of notes for those of you who are obviously better than I am at this stuff: It is true that there were numerous versions of the .50 cal Browning machine gun installed on allied aircraft during WWII, but although the pilot was probably required to know exactly how many rounds each of his weapons carried, he probably had only a vague idea of the length of the belt, and if some guns had more than others on the same plane (which they did) he would probably refer to the longest one. If the wing cannons had six and the fuselage cannon had 8.673 (for instance) he was probably not going to say he went the whole six yards. If you operated a .50 cal in a helo or mounted on a ground vehicle or humped one on foot you definitely had a different weapon, since most of those are crew served (it takes two people to operate) which was not the case on a fighter. Since a pilot couldn't stop what he was doing to fix a malfunction or reload, chances are this type of chain-fed ammunition was also quite different (any idea how much 9 yards of .50 cal weighs?). I'm guessing that those of you with more time on your hands could turn up some more definitive answers by researching this angle further.

Also, the fact that the phrase doesn't turn up until the 60's doesn't really disprove the theory. When talking to my family and writing letters I don't use terms like "8-up" or "high-speed" or "4th point of contact" because these are military slang that they don't understand. The meanings and origins are not hard to track down, but they don't turn up in print outside of the military very often. Has anyone checked to see where the earliest use of fubar or snafu appear in print, and does that mean that they were coined in the same year?

I really wish someone could get to the bottom of all this.

[samclem]

Snafu is cited from 1941. FUBAR is almost certainly derived from snafu. It shows up in 1944.

[John W. Kennedy]

Snafu is cited from 1941. FUBAR is almost certainly derived from snafu. It shows up in 1944.And were in widespread civilian use by the mid-50's, to my certain knowledge, and probably earlier.

[Bookkeeper]

Amd just to throw this in for what it's worth, from pHabala's post and the reference from Sheidlower's site (which I enjoy), the length of the fairly common P-51's ammo belt was around 27 feet. That consists of 400 .50 rounds. Yeah, I know that the inboard and outboard guns were 270 rounds, but when the armorers were laying out the ammo, it had to be linked up to form the longest length. It gets my vote anyway. There has been more than a few terms from the military, after all.

I can confirm that a 400-round belt of 50-cal ammo is indeed 9 yards long (based on measurement of a short length). 400-round belts were used by the P-51 Mustang and also by the F4U Corsair, both of which were in service in the Korean War after most of their WW2 contemporaries were long out of service. While this is no proof whatsoever of the origin of the phrase, if there is a USAF origin it may point to the Korean War rather than WW2 and would explain the lack of references from WW2, as well as providing a possible explanation for the appearance in general use in the '60s (less interaction between military and civil life than during WW2 and its aftermath would make for longer periods before military language moved over to civilian use).

[CurtC]

Also, the fact that the phrase doesn't turn up until the 60's doesn't really disprove the theory.You're right that it doesn't disprove this possibility, but it still is a theory with plausibility problems. Namely, that a) WWII was a well-documented affair (see the origins of snafu and fubar as examples), b) it was twenty years (!) before the phrase was ever written down, and c) it was twenty more years before anyone suggested the ammo belt explanation of the phrase.

So it is not disproven, but what we want is positive proof, or at least an explanation without these plausibility problems.

[fluzwup]

This is really farfetched, but I did find a reference, in a congressional hearing from 1942, with the phrase "the whole nine yards."

From "Investigation of the National Defense Program: Hearings Before a Special Committee Investigating the National Defense Program, United States Senate, Seventy-Seventh Congress, First Session--Eightieth Congress, First Session," which may be found in text form here: http://www.archive.org/stream/investigationofn1112unit/investigationofn1112unit_djvu.txt. The relevant text is as follows:


5192 INVESTIGATION OF THE NATIONAL DEFENSE PROGRAM

Admiral Vickery. Yes, sir.

Senator Burton. So that you have involved here a tremendous ex-
pansion in production, and you are shooting for a 50-percent increase
or more than a 50-percent increase in seven out of nine plants.

Admiral Vickery. That is right, and they have got to make that to
hit the schedules.

Admiral Land. You have to increase from 7.72 to 12 for the average
at the bottom of that fifth column, for the whole nine yards.

Senator Burton. That is pretty nearly twice.

Admiral Vickery. That is what we have got to do.


The topic under discussion seems to be output from naval shipyards, nine of which were producing Liberty ships. Whether this is the source of the idiom, I don't know; it meets both the idiomatic sense, as well as a literal interpretation. It seems a bit obscure for a likely source of the phrase, but if nothing else, it tosses in yet another definition of "yard"...

The earliest reference I can find to a clear idiomatic use is from page 41 of Michigan's Voices: A Literary Quarterly & Arts Magazine, 1960 v. 2:

"...status as a college professor and the whole nine yards..."

This is arguably earlier than "the 1960's", as 1960 is, to be pedantic about things, the last year of the 1950s, since people (other than computer programmers) tend to start counting with 1, not 0.

--scot

[Wendell Wagner]

fluzwup, could you give us more context to the quote "...status as a college professor and the whole nine yards..."? Please quote at least the entire paragraph that it's in. Also, how did you find that quote?

[samclem]

fluzwup, could you give us more context to the quote "...status as a college professor and the whole nine yards..."? Please quote at least the entire paragraph that it's in. Also, how did you find that quote?
You can read this over at Ben Zimmer's visualthesaurus (http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1783/). It details the last few finds.

[zut]

An earlier discussion of the naval yards is here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=478551). The Michigan Voices thing is interesting, though, persuming it really is from 1960 (Google linkage (http://books.google.com/books?id=AuFXAAAAIAAJ&q=%22whole+nine+yards%22&dq=%22whole+nine+yards%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1900&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1965&num=100&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&ei=1xfnSc3VOZ_AzATgi_HZCA&pgis=1)).

... Marjorie's fault, and if all this howling and yelling up and down through the furnace pipes didn't stop soon they'd have the kids awake and then we can all take positions at one of the vents and bellow at each other - real civilized living in the modern urban home - then the dog would catch on and go ki-yi-yi-ing from one th th other of the pyjama clad participants - mad, mad, mad, the consequence of house, home, kids, respectability, status as a college professor and the whole nine yards, as a brush salesman who came by the house was fond of saying the whole damn nine yards and Marjorie with her credulous countenance which allowed him to tell her with a perfectly straight face - and she would believe him, not knowing the difference, not seeing the point, not recognizing the irony and it was this dimensional lack that hurt, her inability to see more than two converging or conflicting planes at a time...

ETA: I see samclem is on top of it.

[ZenBeam]

This is arguably earlier than "the 1960's", as 1960 is, to be pedantic about things, the last year of the 1950s, since people (other than computer programmers) tend to start counting with 1, not 0.No. 1960 is not part of the 1950s. That's just silly.

[Exapno Mapcase]

You can read this over at Ben Zimmer's visualthesaurus (http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1783/). It details the last few finds.

It's funny to read the comments and find that nobody is bothering to read any of the cites before throwing in exactly the same old disproven folk etymology. People are people!

The context seems to support the use of the phrase as a hyperbolic list length. The problem is that such a usage just pushes the issue back. Why nine yards for a length? Nine yards is not a common length or common usage of any kind. The "to the nines" is one example of an ultimate, but sevens are much more common. To me that suggests that the nine is a specific reference that we haven't yet discovered.

The earliest reference I can find to a clear idiomatic use is from page 41 of Michigan's Voices: A Literary Quarterly & Arts Magazine, 1960 v. 2:

"...status as a college professor and the whole nine yards..."

This is arguably earlier than "the 1960's", as 1960 is, to be pedantic about things, the last year of the 1950s, since people (other than computer programmers) tend to start counting with 1, not 0.
Ugh. Two errors. First the year is wrong and years may count heavily here.

Second, 1961 is the first year of the seventh decade of the 20th century. 1960 is the first year of "the 1960's." Far from being pedantic you've completely misunderstood the basics of the issue.

[fluzwup]

I found both the Michigan's Voices and the Congressional hearing using a Google Books search, looking for the period of 1940 to 1960. Since the magazine article is under copyright, all I could see was a snippet of text. The Congressional hearing, though not under copyright, Google wouldn't let me see at all, but a search of the title found me a scanned and OCRed copy at archive.org.

And yes, I was mixing up the two definitions of "decade" deliberately. And don't forget that there is yet a third definition, which is the cultural "Sixties". Use of the phrase "the 1960s" is dodgy anyway, as it implies a great degree of imprecision--I'd interpret it as a bit short of 3 significant digits.

--scot

"If you remember the sixties, you weren't there." --Robin Williams

[Irishman]

The OP:
did the whole nine yards issue ever get resolved

The answer: No.

[AskNott]

But suppose it entered the general language through an amusing public usage.

/urban legend warning

The way I heard it was that this came up during a divorce proceding. Something along the lines of a cement truck driver returning home and finding his wife in bed with someone else. As he stalked off in anger, he decided to pour cement into the convertible owned by his wife's lover.

After he relayed this, the judge asked him how much cement he'd poured into the car -- his answer: "the whole nine yards".

The courtroom erupts in laughter and all attendees share this with their friends.

See http://www.snopes.com/love/revenge/concrete.asp for more info.

/urban legend warning end

Note that this also addresses the issue of variability in cement mixers. This version only requires us to assume that the driver knew the size of the particular truck he was using on that day.

Does this do anything for anybody? Okay, I know its based on a verifiable urban legend, but this was the way I learned the thing.

Will a convertible, even the big American barges of the 1960s, hold nine cubic yards of concrete? I don't think so.:dubious:

[Irishman]

9 cubic yards is about 6 ft by 6 ft by 6 ft. Assuming you use a liberal definition of "filled the car", i.e. piled in a heap, then covered the hood and trunk as necessary, 9 cubic yards wouldn't be absurd.

[msean]

We just returned from Colonial Williamsburg, and we were told that in those days a woman's ability to bear children was highly desired by a future mate, and since the width of a woman's hips is supposedly an indication of such ability, the women took to wearing "hip extenders" (my terminology) under their dresses that made their hips appear to be much wider than they actually were.

We were shown such "extenders" hanging from the ceiling of the dressmaker's shop. They were at least two and one half times as wide as I am, and I'm an adult male.

The ensuing dress would be made from a bolt of cloth and sometimes the whole bolt of cloth, all 27 feet of it, was needed. The whole nine yards.

[John W. Kennedy]

They're called "panniers". Originally, panniers were practical baskets worn at the hips, but the name became attached to ornamental hip extenders. You may have heard of pannier baskets for bicycles (or motorcycles) or "pannier [steam railroad] engines".

However, you seem to have picked up a rather silly version of the story. No man of the time was fooled by panniers, and it was a rare man of the time who went looking for a woman saying, "I want a good breeder," in the first place (though his father sometimes did, if they were upper class). Rather, men are attracted, according to various different fashions in various different times and cultures, to nearly anything about women that is the opposite of mannish. Long hair. Breasts. Smooth and more or less hairless skin. Small arm muscles and small feet. Brainlessness (sorry, but it happens). And, yes, large hips (and narrow waists, which set off wide hips and large breasts). A man, as I say, wouldn't be fooled by panniers, but his "hot chick" button could be pushed by them, all the same.

[Irishman]

That would be great, except of bolt of cloth is not 27 feet. It is 120 ft, or 40 yards. Ergo, a whole bolt of cloth is not "the whole 9 yards". It would be "the whole 40 yards".

http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/b/o/bolt%20of%20cloth/source.html