These are the final days of peace in America.

[SpeyFly]

http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/morford/

[pezpunk]

Welcome to the boards.

I nominate you the most depressing newbie ever!

[SpeyFly]

Thanks, I'll take that as a great compliment. Looks like a good group.

[Amp]

This article makes it seem like Busch is going to cancel all future elections so that he can stay in power and rule forever. He might screw this up but I'm willing to bet that some President in the future will fix it. Once he does that then I will really start to worry. Hell, he'll be gone by the next election, if not then in that's it for him.

And all this talk about the final days of peace and such, well I'm pretty sure that people felt like that in the past during all the other wars and we came out of it OK. Call me an optimist but I still think we'll all be around twenty years from now and our grandkids will be surfing the net for the paper that they'll have to do on, "Bush's Folly, the Second Gulf War."

[Mehitabel]

As soon as I read that we're planning to bomb hundreds of thousands of people, I closed the window. Has this columnist ever actually met anybody in the military? Has he even driven by the Presidio?

[japatlgt]

Seems a little "touchy." Hmmm.

[Tuckerfan]

These are the last days of relative calm before we start bombing and massacring hundreds of thousands of people and in so doing enter into what many believe will a very long, drawn-out, insanely expensive, volatile, destabilizing, completely unwinnable war against a cheap thug of an opponent who has negligible military might and zero capacity to actually harm the U.S. in any substantive way.So, I guess we all imagined 9/11 and the economic havoc which ensued immediately thereafter? The last Gulf War was supposed to be another Vietnam, with the draft being reinstated, hundreds of thousands of US soldiers being killed. Didn't happen then, and won't happen this time (assuming we do go to war). In the meantime, millions of Iraqis are confined to the world's largest prison because of the crimes of one man, but that's okay, because it avoids war. I, for one, fail to see the logic in that.

The worst thing that's going to come of all of this, is that it's going to sulley America's already tarnished reputation.

[Daniel]

Bush's own decorated army generals have said this invasion and occupation will require hundreds of thousands of American GIs -- quite possibly our entire enlisted force, all mobilized to one region,

That's nutso. Where did this assertion come from?

[BodiceRipper]

LOL any literate wacko can write an article and have it perceived as "valid" by somebody, i guess.

whew. call the men in little white coats!

[Czarcasm]

Blanket statements(and we prefer that you supply your own, not just post links) belong in MPSIMS.

Be seeing you.

[Otto]

Originally posted by Tuckerfan
So, I guess we all imagined 9/11 and the economic havoc which ensued immediately thereafter? Hawks seem to be imagining that there's evidence that Iraq had anything to do with it.

[tourbot]

I can't believe noone has yet mentioned the most objectionable part yet:
you can't win a war on terror any more than you can win the war... against ignorance...
:eek:

[BF]

This Morford dude seems to be really high on the hyperbole. He, unfortunately, got my attentiion with a rabid anti-gun piece a couple of weeks back. Apparently he doesn't let facts get in the way of a good diatribe. I guess he's another candidate for the Ann Coulter alter-ego award.

[El_Kabong]

My review of the linked article:

Bullshit.

End of review.

Hey, I'm no fan of Bush and his merry band of bespectacled jingoists, but the leftist hyperbole is getting completely out of hand. I you like what Morford has to say, just listen to one of the Pacifica Radio outlets for plenty more. Here in Houston for example, Jim Hightower's little morning blurb today tried propose that Bush is somehow personally responsible for every case of E. coli infection in this country.

As for Morford and his moan, I was a bit amused by the way the author contradicts himself with this line:

and in so doing enter into what many believe will a very long, drawn-out, insanely expensive, volatile, destabilizing, completely unwinnable war against a cheap thug of an opponent who has negligible military might and zero capacity to actually harm the U.S. in any substantive way.

What fucking nonsense. The war is "won" when Saddam is forced out of office, and no one with any sense thinks that will take longer than a few days to accomplish.

I, too, weep for the potential for loss of life, the utterly insane waste of our money, the harm to this country's already tattered reputation that is being done by the current administration, but am also not the complete bloody idiot that Morford and the folks at Pacifica seem to think I am. These people have personal agendas that I find just as simplistic and odious as that those of the Bushistas, and when I'm feeling particularly peevish, like now, I wish they'd all just shut the hell up.

[racekarl]

Wow, you posted a worthless link to someone's opinion without comment? You sir are SUPER POSTER.

I DO NOT welcome you to the boards. I hope your stay here is short if this is the best you can do.

[ultress]

Peace ended in America when they bombed the World Trade Center the first time. We just didn't know it at the time.

[Walloon]

What a stupid article. "Massacring hundreds of thousands of people"? "Quite possibly our entire enlisted force"? "Completely unwinnable war"?

No serious military analyst doubts that if and when the allied U.S. and British forces invade Iraq, Hussein and his Baath Party will be deposed.

[Walloon]

What a stupid article. "Massacring hundreds of thousands of people"? When we invaded Afghanistan and deposed the Taliban government, the number of civilian deaths is believed to be in the low four figures, and that number is from critics of the U.S. military actions.

"Quite possibly our entire enlisted force"?

"Completely unwinnable war"? No serious military analyst doubts that if and when the allied U.S. and British forces invade Iraq, Hussein and his Baath Party will be deposed.

Note also the gist that Sept. 11 is our fault, we had it coming. We must atone for our sins.

[OpalCat]

I hate Bush. I dress to the left (well you know what I mean).

I thought that article was horse puckey.

[jackelope]

You know you're not going to find much in the way of lucid reasoning when the arguer insists on making fun of his opponents' names. "Shrub and Rummy," indeed. Yes, good point.

Take it to the playground, dude.

[SpeyFly]

You guys are brutal yet fun.

[Jeep's Phoenix]

Originally posted by Daniel
That's nutso. Where did this assertion come from?

Probably my next door neighbor. She called me a few nights ago, very upset because "all our troops are over there and there's no one over here to protect us."

And the article reminds me of the stuff the Liberal Arts majors paint in the "free expression tunnel" on my college's campus--gross exaggerations with the sole intent of scaring the hell out of underinformed people.

[Elvis]

What a ridiculous crock. I'm an inveterate New York City liberal pinko but I can't abide crap like "America will never be the same, everyone said just after 9/11, and meaning it with all their heavy hearts, signifying that America might now have to reevaluate its international standing and its aggressive foreign policy, might have to reexamine its core values, seriously scrutinize capitalism's more dire effects on the world community."

Really? That's the lesson of 9/11? That America sucks and we had better change our system lest other crazy-ass religious zealots fly airplanes into our buildings?

That's not what I meant when I said everything changed after 9/11...

[Tripler]

Originally posted by Otto
Hawks seem to be imagining that there's evidence that Iraq had anything to do with it.

Then, by your definition, I'm a "Hawk". I've seen enough that makes me genuinely curious as to just what the hell he's got. I'll go in if I have to. . .

But back to the OP:

This will be 3,000 guided missiles launched on the first day of the war, 10 times that of Desert Storm, turning Iraq into an instant wasteland.

I instantly lost all credibility for the author when I read this. "Guided missiles" have always been used. Plus, they don't make places into wastelands. My opinion went right downhill from there. . .

And say good-bye to your sons and daughters, too. Bush's own decorated army generals have said this invasion and occupation will require hundreds of thousands of American GIs -- quite possibly our entire enlisted force (snip)

Last I checked, there were NCOs and officers too. . .

We are soon to be the world's only superpower that will attack anyone we deem might be a potential threat to our interests, immediate provocation notwithstanding, immediate danger irrelevant. This means anyone. This means Syria. North Korea. Iran.

No offense to our British Dopers, but haven't the British been patroling Northern Ireland in an antiterrorist capability for awhile? And when the hell was the last time we attacked Syria or Iran (IIRC the 70s for Iran).

Perhaps we do not understand the weight of this.

Oh, I sure as hell do. As do a few other Dopers I know.

. . .we could go aggro. Get all Bruce Willis on 'em.

Yeah, but I consider The Whole Nine Yards one of my favorite movies of all time.

Still stop Osama, but and then get all macho and war hungry and exterminate everyone we deem a potential threat, no matter how remote. War uber alles. This was fed to us as the only truly patriotic response. This is where we are now. We are told war and aggression was the only possible response. It wasn't. It still isn't.

Aaah, the true voice of a paranoid hippie.
- Conversely -
Um, what? All I saw on the news was recovery and rebuilding. Neutralize any offensive powers that be directly against us, but we were mainly licking our wounds. I must not have watched that specific news channel that day . . .

They don't really care. War is at hand. America is about to turn a corner, sharp to the right. These are the last days of peace in America as you know it. And we will never be the same.

We weren't the same after 9/11, which sort of kicked off all of these events. Of course we won't be the same. We "weren't the same" after the last Presidential election. We won't be the same after Columbia broke up over the skies of the southwest CONUS. Unfortunately, we were the same after the first bombing of the World Trade Center, and didn't see the writing on the wall. I damn pray that we're not the same, and take prudent action to nip this shit in the bud.

Tripler
Wait, am I in GD or MPSIMS? Sorry . . . :D

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by Czarcasm
Be seeing you.

So You're the new Number Two? AAAH!

[Otto]

Originally posted by Tripler
Then, by your definition, I'm a "Hawk". I've seen enough that makes me genuinely curious as to just what the hell he's got. I'll go in if I have to. . . I didn't offer a definition of hawk. That you're wondering if Iraq was involved in 9/11 doesn't make you a hawk. I wonder that too. But 18 months after the fact I have seen no evidence that Iraq was directly involved in 9/11. The terrorists and Bin Laden were/are Saudi. I admit I have lost track of who all is in custody and their nationalities but I don't remember hearing that any of the "masterminds" or whatever they're being called these days were Iraqi. I don't understand how 9/11 can possibly be a justification for a war against a country that to date has not been shown to have any involvement in the precipitating event. We might as well say that 9/11 is an excuse to make war on China or Belize or Tasmania.

[newcrasher]

Originally posted by ultress
Peace ended in America when they bombed the World Trade Center the first time. We just didn't know it at the time.

here here

[Walloon]

Hear, hear.

[Tuckerfan]

Originally posted by Otto
Hawks seem to be imagining that there's evidence that Iraq had anything to do with it. Otto, I was pointing out that we didn't consider Osama a serious threat to the US until after 9/11, and yet he turned out to be. Saddam could turn out to be a serious threat to the US at some point in time. Just because someone's military is crap, doesn't mean that they can't inflict a lot of damage on us.

[SpeyFly]

Originally posted by Tuckerfan
Otto, I was pointing out that we didn't consider Osama a serious threat to the US until after 9/11, and yet he turned out to be. Saddam could turn out to be a serious threat to the US at some point in time. Just because someone's military is crap, doesn't mean that they can't inflict a lot of damage on us.

Man are you uniformed.

Bush sent $43 Million to the Taliban. His administration supported negotiations with terrorists on behalf of his campaign contributors. These included corporations seeking to build a pipeline through Afghanistan. These multinational special interests employed his father and former Bush administration officials including James A. Baker III, who led Bush's efforts to wrest the White House from Al Gore.

Greg Palast reports Bush ordered national security agents to "back off" the bin Laden terrorists. A former CIA agent appeared on BBC TV saying: "We were just told, 'You get caught spying on the Saudis or looking into their affairs, and you will lose your head!'"

Here is the rest of the story about george and his knowlege of Osama.
http://www.bushoccupation.com/welcolumn.html

[Tuckerfan]

Originally posted by SpeyFly
Man are you uniformed.

Bush sent $43 Million to the Taliban. His administration supported negotiations with terrorists on behalf of his campaign contributors. These included corporations seeking to build a pipeline through Afghanistan. These multinational special interests employed his father and former Bush administration officials including James A. Baker III, who led Bush's efforts to wrest the White House from Al Gore.

Greg Palast reports Bush ordered national security agents to "back off" the bin Laden terrorists. A former CIA agent appeared on BBC TV saying: "We were just told, 'You get caught spying on the Saudis or looking into their affairs, and you will lose your head!'"

Here is the rest of the story about george and his knowlege of Osama.
http://www.bushoccupation.com/welcolumn.html Yeah, and people say the same thing about Clinton and the Chinese and the North Koreans, what's your point? 9/11 caught everyone in America with their pants down. Everyone. (Unless you believe those half-witted theories that Bush knew about the whole thing in advance and used it to boost his re-election chances in '04. In which case, I gotta ask why he didn't pull the thing off in '03 instead of '01, not to mention that it'd make Bush and his cronies a whole lot smarter than they've appeared to be.) Do a search on the Taliban and look at the pre-9/11 threads here about them. Everyone agreed that the Taliban were pretty horrific, but nobody ever said, "Well, one day the Taliban will attack us, and we'll have to go to war with them." Yeah, the US intelligence agencies had hints as to what was going on, but nobody put the pieces together. We were too busy patting ourselves on the back for beating the Commies.

[straykat23]

Mark Morford distributes three internet offerings per week, none of which (by his own admission) would ever be published in the parent newspaper, the San Francisco Chronicle. I am on his mailing list and usually chuckle my way through all of his articles.

He intentionally skews the news but generally is in sympathy with the article's premise; for example, he is anti-war and will exaggerate pro-war statements and sentiments - he freely admits this. Using his article in the manner in which it was presented (no reference to his manner of spoofing and exaggerating) would be akin to passing off an Onion article as fact.

He also has lots of references to sundry items such as butt plugs and Astroglide. He saves his best rants for Lynn Cheney though....

I look at Morford as a very wired, clever, sharp-tongued guy who has a good heart (read his "Hell has a room reserved for...." articles) and who doesn't take himself or our politicans seriously.

Lighten up!

[Chaco]

Wow, I can't believe people are taking this columnist so seriously. I have been reading him for years and he loves his hyperbole. You have to read some of his other articles to put him into context.

Some of his stuff is entertaining. Kind of in the same vein as Scylla. I never took this guy seriously. He's funny sometimes and he is attempting to address an issues that, IMO, he has no capacity to address.

Please, do not take Morford seriously.

[Chaco]

Ah, I see straykat23 beat me to it.

[El_Kabong]

Please, do not take Morford seriously.

Believe me, judged on the basis of the linked article, I don't.