Graham Norton hit a new low tonight

[ruadh]

His guests were Westlife, an Irish boy band. He had them posed as little leprechauns, singing "The Fields of Athenry" (Ireland's unofficial national anthem) in a Chipmunks style rendition.

To American dopers this might not seem like such a big deal. But on a British television show, it's not far off from Little Black Sambo.

Graham, you've officially sold your soul. Now fuck off.

[Francesca]

I cannot watch the man anymore.

[iampunha]

For those of us who are poor, uneducated murrikins, could someone provide a translation? Something like ... O'Town singing Carmina Burana, or perhaps Luciano Pavarotti (sp) ... I dunno, rapping?

:clueless:

[asterion]

Hey, I'd pay good money to see Pavarotti rapping.

[Lucretia]

I'm not totally sure what it was you found offensive, either. Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting there was good reason, but I'm afraid it's not crossing cultures well. Would you mind a little elaboration to help fight international ignorance?

[The Devil's Grandmother]

Maybe a not-very-waterholding-analogy might be Menudo singing This Land Is Your Land, This Land Is My Land while dressed like Juan Valdez, complete with coffee totin’ burro. On the Fourth of July.

I can't believe Westlife did it. Was it supposed to be funny?

[black rabbit]

I'll take a WAG and say it would be equivalent to G. Gordon Liddy having a bunch of guys in blackface singing "We Shall Overcome" on Martin Luther King Day.

[Punoqllads]

Picture N'Sync in blackface singing Old Folks at Home (Suwannee River).

[Cervaise]

Isn't Norton himself at least putatively Irish?

[SmackFu]

Since Westlife is Irish, doesn't that make it self-mockery? Which is no big deal!

[ruadh]

Hmm, I thought the comparison with Little Black Sambo would make it reasonably clear.

Norton and Westlife are Irish, yes, and if it were an Irish programme on Irish television it wouldn't be such a big deal. But this is a British television show. And the Irish in Britain are still very much a disadvantaged minority, and still subject to a substantial amount of prejudice (two recent media reports: the Irish are the only ethnic group who are worse off in Britain than in their home country; a British retail entrepreneur repeatedly slurred a reporter as "a fucking illiterate Irishman").

Picture N'Sync in blackface singing Old Folks at Home (Suwannee River).

If N'Sync were black and giving this performance to white folk, that would be it in a nutshell.

[hazel-rah]

The most recent Durutti Column album has a lovely cover of "The Fields of Athenry" on it.

[Reuben]

And the Irish in Britain are still very much a disadvantaged minority...

Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. I don't know where this campaign for victim status comes from, but it's pretty ugly and entirely undeserved from where I'm sitting. I drink in an Irish pub and have a great many Irish friends here in London, all of whom would laugh at the notion they were 'disadvantaged'. They're all doing better than me, come to think of it.

... a British retail entrepreneur repeatedly slurred a reporter as "a fucking illiterate Irishman"

Quick! Get a rope and hang the intolerant racist bastard from the nearest lamppost! Fancy calling a man from Ireland an Irishman...

[Gary Kumquat]

Originally posted by ruadh
His guests were Westlife, an Irish boy band. He had them posed as little leprechauns, singing "The Fields of Athenry" (Ireland's unofficial national anthem) in a Chipmunks style rendition.

To American dopers this might not seem like such a big deal. But on a British television show, it's not far off from Little Black Sambo.

Graham, you've officially sold your soul. Now fuck off. Can't stand Graham Norton, but ruadh calm down. This is no worse than the self referential pisstakes by scottish comedians of the whole Tartan, shortbread and bagpipes crap. If an irishman isn't allowed to take the piss out of kitsch stereotypical imagery of Ireland, then who is? And how is it comparable to racist imagery?

[Gary Kumquat]

Originally posted by ruadh
two recent media reports: the Irish are the only ethnic group who are worse off in Britain than in their home country; a British retail entrepreneur repeatedly slurred a reporter as "a fucking illiterate Irishman"
Erm, two obvious points:

1) A cite would be nice. Comparable statistics would also be useful - if Ireland has a higher general standard of living than Britain, it's likely that people who move across would on average be worse off. There's a lot of ways such a statistic could be achieved without any form of ethnic prejudice.

2) I'm not sure how calling someone an Irishman is a slur. If someone were to call me a fucking illiterate Scotsman, it's the first two words I'd take exception to.

I really am curious as to how you perceive the Irish as a disadvantaged minority in Britain. Could you provide some examples or cites?

[Mangetout]

Originally posted by asterion
Hey, I'd pay good money to see Pavarotti rapping. Not a chance; first you'd have to get him to shut up about the elephants (http://www.rathergood.com/elephants/)

[Racer1]

Originally posted by ruadh
Hmm, I thought the comparison with Little Black Sambo would make it reasonably clear.

Norton and Westlife are Irish, yes, and if it were an Irish programme on Irish television it wouldn't be such a big deal. But this is a British television show. And the Irish in Britain are still very much a disadvantaged minority, and still subject to a substantial amount of prejudice (two recent media reports: the Irish are the only ethnic group who are worse off in Britain than in their home country; a British retail entrepreneur repeatedly slurred a reporter as "a fucking illiterate Irishman").

*snip*

This is very silly, IMO. Firstly, there are roughly 60 million people in the UK, what gives one idiot the voice of the nation? I'm sure there are many people in Ireland who have said equally derogatory things about the British, and the insult is pretty tame anyway. It is only on a par with calling someone a "Fucking illiterate southerner" or "Fucking stupid Brit." I'm both of those but would only be offended by the illiterate part. ;)

I am also surprised to hear the claim of the Irish being a disadvantaged minority in the UK. I'm pretty sure most of my Irish friends would disagree. They have the same standard of living as myself, and certainly haven't been subjected to any prejudice that I have witnessed (doesn't mean much, I know). I will ask them. As Gary Kumquat notes, it is easy to prove anything with statistics. Perhaps Ireland has a higher standard of living than many places other minority groups travel to the UK from? This would explain your media report without showing any particular prejudice against the Irish.

I'm not going to go into the self-fun-poking argument, seeing as the performers were Irish, but it is hardly a new or particularly offending comedy area.

I’m sorry, but you’re overreacting, in my opinion. I doubt the TV station will get many complaints.

Not that I disagree with claims of Graham Norton's general un-funniness, of course. :)

[yojimbo]

I saw it and have no problem with it whatsoever.... well apart from the Westlife/Norton element of it ;)

[casdave]

Sorry but I just cannot agree about the bollocks about the Irish being disadvantaged in the UK.

Sure there are many who are itninerant construction workers, but their lot is no worse than any other such workers.

Irish are entitled to apply for any work that I am able to, except for that which demands British citizenship, like police, etc abd this is hardly any differant to any other country.

Irish workers do not need Visas, they are entitled to full healthcare benefits and may qualify for other British benefits too.

[jjimm]

Probably not the best thing to promote harmony between our nations, and certainly likely to perpetuate a false stereotype, but since a) Norton's Irish, and b) Westlife are Irish, and they weren't (presumably) coerced into doing this, WAYGTD? There are more patronising things I've seen on TV during Paddy's Day in the US, and these things are actually encouraged by Irish-Americans. As for it being the Fields of Athenry - well, at least they got a (kinda) rebel song onto British prime-time.

[yojimbo]

I have to say I've never felt at any disadvantages in the UK. Maybe a few people have a problem with "paddy" but so what. UK'ers (mostly English) would get some of the same shite over here.

casdave we don't even have to bring a passport to the UK.

[London_Calling]

I wish Graham Norton was "disadvantaged" of his teevee show.

[yojimbo]

I have to say I've never felt at any disadvantage in the UK. Maybe a few people have a problem with "paddy" but so what. UK'ers (mostly English) would get some of the same shite over here.

casdave we don't even have to bring a passport to the UK.

[London_Calling]

No, I've never, ever heard the 'English' described as arrogant by the Irish, Scots, Welsh ...

[TwistofFate]

I can't really answer for the "irish worse off in Britain" bit, but Westlife and Norton can go and fuck right off.

[Gary Kumquat]

Originally posted by London_Calling
No, I've never, ever heard the 'English' described as arrogant by the Irish, Scots, Welsh ...
And Glaswegians call Aberdonians sheepshaggers, and the shaggers call weegies thieving minks, but we both agree that Edinburgh is full of stuck up bastards - hell, in the UK you can find prejudice at every level you like. What do you expect from a country full of objectionable grumpy bastards (and I'm proud to be one of them)

[Una Persson]

Originally posted by ruadh
Graham, you've officially sold your soul. Now fuck off.
Personally, I thought his soul was owned by DollyWood, as a result of that hideous 1-hour infomercialesque show he did...blech.

[curly chick]

To the best of my knowledge - and I am quite prepared to be thrashed in a volley of righteous indignation, if I am wrong - Mr Norton and Messers Westlife are all Irish and ruadh is not.

So I feel impishly compelled to ask ruadh if her outrage stems from the zeal of the wannabee, or to paraphrase Ali G:
"Iz it becoz you is Irish?"

To me, Graham Norton has been tragically unfunny for about a year now, but if Channel 4 want to pay him loads of dosh to amuse himself on the telly five nights a week, he would be crackers to tell them to sod off.

Westlife are not my cup of tea, but they have made their money and I am sure if they had objected to the content of the show, then they would have had the clout to veto it.

Anyone in Dublin who wants to put their pc hat on should come around to my bus stop and take a look at the grafitti I saw there this morning - presumably inscibed over the festive weekend of St Patrick:

"We should send the Irish army to fight in Iraq.
Send all the freeloding (sic) n*****s to be shot"

Delightful.

[Futile Gesture]

Originally posted by ruadh
"The Fields of Athenry" (Ireland's unofficial national anthem) Oxymoron.

The whole St. Partrick's day thing has become a dumb farce and the Irish are as much to blame as anyone (though non-one as much as the Americans) for the state of it. I didn't see Norton's show, but if it was taking the piss out of the ludicrous bollocks surrounding "St Paddy's Day, wear green, get yer shamrocks out, everyone's Irish, get legless on Guinness, tearful rendition of an old rebel song", then I'm all for it.

[yojimbo]

Get to fuck Futile Gesture there's nothing wrong with getting legless on Guinness ;)

Other than that I agree 100%

[manwithaplan]

You can add me to the list of the unoffended.

I would agree that there are many hallmarks of disadvantage amongst the Irish in Britain (poor health, low income, homelessness etc.) but to put it down to modern day discrimination would be very simplistic. People who emigrated in the 50s, 60s, and 70s were subject to discrimination and reduced opportunities. The effect of this is still felt today in the Irish community in Britain. While some of those who emigrated over that period did so by choice, most did not. The implication of this is that the emigrant community were largely made up of those unable to find work in Ireland and they became disproportionately represented in manual labour etc. in Britain. It would be a lot to expect this structural position to be redressed in a single generation.

More recent emigrants are a much more diverse bunch. Many emigrated by choice and are highly qualified. Their success would seem to give the lie to claims of systematic discrimination against the Irish.

Like every other modern society, Britain structurally discriminates against those in lower socio-economic groups. The big waves of Irish emigration since the war resulted in a disproportionate number of Irish in those groups. It is no major surprise that the long term Irish community are 'disadvantaged'.

[Malacandra]

Originally posted by ruadh
And the Irish in Britain are still very much a disadvantaged minority, and still subject to a substantial amount of prejudice *snip*

[stealth bigot] Everyone must speak as he finds, but I know that if, say, I were living in France and enjoying a worse standard of living in France than I could in England, and felt myself subject to a substantial amount of prejudice, and my home country was a short ferry ride away... I can't imagine what would keep me in France.

And in order to reach the decision above, I don't even need to project any "You're not welcome here" sentiments onto the (hypothetical) French. [/stealth bigot]

[TwistofFate]

except for the fact that its not a rebel song,. It's a love ballad.

[jjimm]

Originally posted by TwistofFate
except for the fact that its not a rebel song,. It's a love ballad. Oh. Well, you can see why I thought it was (my emphasis): By a lonely prison wall, I heard a young man calling
"Nothing matters, Mary, when you're free
Against the famine and the crown,
I rebelled, they cut me down.
Now you must raise our child with dignity."

[yojimbo]

Stealing Trevelyan's(bastard that he was) corn (because of the Famine) to feed your kids and then getting deported for it.

It's not just a love ballad. By a lonely prison wall, I heard a young man calling
"Nothing matters, Mary, when you're free
Against the famine and the crown,
I rebelled, they cut me down.
Now you must raise our child with dignity."

[blue_poop]

I agree with some of the comments because sometimes I do think that some of his gags are a little... cheesy say but his show has some good points too.

Sorry but I have to say I love Graham but Westlife can go to f*ck...

:D

[yojimbo]

Ha.

[jjimm]

Trad simulpost!

[TwistofFate]

But thats only two lines out of the whole song. I think it just explains why he was in prison in order to create emotion and anguish about the separation of the lovers.

[jjimm]

How about "vaguely rebellious love ballad"? :)

[irishgirl]

Didn't see the show, but Westlife in general make me giggle.
Westlife as leprechauns would probably make me piss myself.

One more for the not offended.

Low lie the fields of Athenry
Where once we watched the small free birds fly
(Hey baby let those free birds fly ;) )
Our love was on the wing
We had dreams and songs to sing
It's so lonely
Around the fields of Athenry

i think jjimm nailed it there

[TwistofFate]

ah, go away and boil your head :P

[ruadh]

Just curious as to how many of the "unoffended" actually saw it? Believe me, I've a pretty thick skin.

Here (www.cre.gov.uk/pdfs/irinbrit.pdf) is the Commission for Racial Equality's report on the status of the Irish in Britain (warning, pdf file). And here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,907762,00.html) is the full story behind the "fucking illiterate Irishman" comment - Reuben, Gary Kumquat and Racer1, please read it.

[Crusoe]

Philip Green is famous for his foul-mouthed rants (http://www.observer.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,910232,00.html). While that doesn't excuse his outburst, it does mean he's not necessarily representative of a wider problem.

[BMalion]

Originally posted by Mangetout
Not a chance; first you'd have to get him to shut up about the elephants (http://www.rathergood.com/elephants/)

Thank you for making my day much brighter.
Thanks also for the coffee stain on my pants
It was worth almost getting fired when I snorted out loud and my boss sees me shaking with laughter.

[Iteki]

On the "the Irish are not discriminated against in the UK" issue:

Bout 5 years back I was on a conference for youth minority workers. One of the people running the conference was from the British Racial Equality Authority, there is a proper name for that, but it's late and I am Irish, so forgive me for not remembering :P

He informed me that (at the time, this might have changed) the Irish were the only "white" minority represented (presumably he meant with it's own department or whatever) by this authority. One of the examples of workplace prejudice he gave was that newley moved Irish women in their twenties have a very hard time getting as far as interview for jobs as the employers are of the opinion that "ah, she'll get homesick and run off home". Maybe not the most cutting example, but that is the one that stuck with me at the time (being a twentysomething year old woman).

[Merseybeat]

Jeez, the CRE aren't happy unless they can find a minority to justify their funding.

I'm of Catholic Irish stock:- my grandparents came here to find work, and all our family now have good careers.

I get jokes directed at me when I visit another part of the UK because I have a strong Liverpool accent. I live with it - I can't get a nice pay-off because I'm officially a UK citizen and not part of a minority.

As for the CRE report about Irish travellers, there are also English ones as well. and the whole bunch of them are a fuckin' nuisance. They occupy private land, pay no taxes, expect Social Security payments and when they eventually move on leave a load of crap all over the site. Us taxpayers then have to pay for the clean-up.

They can all bugger off as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, I love visiting Ireland BTW...

[Merseybeat]

As an addendum, I was out getting pissed on St. Patrick's day, so I just played Norton on tape, I found the call to the Estonian pub hilarious.

[Racer1]

Originally posted by ruadh
Just curious as to how many of the "unoffended" actually saw it? Believe me, I've a pretty thick skin.

Here (www.cre.gov.uk/pdfs/irinbrit.pdf) is the Commission for Racial Equality's report on the status of the Irish in Britain (warning, pdf file). And here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,907762,00.html) is the full story behind the "fucking illiterate Irishman" comment - Reuben, Gary Kumquat and Racer1, please read it.

I read it, and there is no doubt the guy is an idiot who probably finds sea creatures sexual attractive, but you can’t seriously be arguing that something one guy has said proves that British people in general have anti-Irish tendencies?

That would be like claiming the whole country was anti-Man United because you overhear someone in a pub saying they hate the team. It just isn’t a valid representation. I’m sure you can dig up insults from individual people in any country on earth, directed at any country on earth.

On the disadvantage issue, I think manwithaplan has hit the nail on the head.

Anyway, at least we have all learnt one thing… don’t watch Graham Norton’s TV show! :D

[TwistofFate]

As for the CRE report about Irish travellers, there are also English ones as well. and the whole bunch of them are a fuckin' nuisance. They occupy private land, pay no taxes, expect Social Security payments and when they eventually move on leave a load of crap all over the site. Us taxpayers then have to pay for the clean-up.

They can all bugger off as far as I'm concerned.


Bugger off where?

Really, this could be quite the informative conversation......

[Kal]

Originally posted by TwistofFate
Bugger off where?

Really, this could be quite the informative conversation...... Aye. I, for one, am eagerly awaiting an education on the subject.

[Malacandra]

Personally I would be privately astonished if the CRE ever had a good word to say about the treatment of the Irish in Britain, the treatment of the Indians in Britain, the treatment of the Croatians in Britain, the treatment of the Somalis in Britain, the treatment of the Pakistanis in Britain, the treatment of the sub-Saharan Africans in Britain, the treatment of Black Caribbeans in Britain, the treatment of the Chinese in Britain, the treatment of the Malays in Britain... but I think you get my point.

Setting aside the issue of the objectivity of the CRE for a minute, I do not feel that even their most rabid Irish-rights advocate would ever presume to mention the status of the Irish in Britain in the same breath as the treatment of Black slaves in the pre-Civil War USA. Hence, I think that to draw an analogy between Irish self-parody on British TV (presumably voluntary and a nice little earner to boot) and blacked-up white singers parodying Black slave songs - or even Black singers performing slave songs in Uncle-Tom-ish fashion - is nothing short of contemptible.

The past injustices the evil Brits may have inflicted on the Irish is a can of worms I don't plan to open right here and now. But it's plain enough that you can't go lamenting "By the waters of Babylon we sat down; there we wept when we remembered Zion" when the gates of Babylon are wide open and Zion is only an affordable day's journey away. The Black slaves whose shade you see fit to invoke would have begged on bended knee for the chance to trade places with the Irish in Britain, living within easy reach of their homeland and with no bar to returning any time they liked.

Which, again, is not to be interpreted as "Irish go home".

[London_Calling]

Originally posted by Malacandra
But it's plain enough that you can't go lamenting "By the waters of Babylon we sat down; there we wept when we remembered Zion"

Impossible to read this without imagining that dude from Boney M dancing around like a hip-replacement Grannie on Viagra. One of my life ambitions was to write prose that evoked a reggae beat ...

[TwistofFate]

Is that before or after he started smoking crack and beating up audience members?

[London_Calling]

He did ? I can't believe it. You sure he wasn't just attacking his hairdresser ?

[TwistofFate]

damn, I can't find a cite. I do know that in 1994 he was in court in Holland fro threatening to set fire to his wife.
And I can definitely remember the news report that he was in trouble for allegedly assaulting a fan at a show, but perhaps its an implanted memory.

Ra Ra Rasputin indeed.

[London_Calling]

Originally posted by TwistofFate
damn, I can't find a cite. I do know that in 1994 he was in court in Holland fro threatening to set fire to his wife.

Yeah, I think they're quite strict about fires in public places in Holland.

Anyway, he wasn't quite the full two-bob before he started. Then he got married .. who wouldn't that push over the edge ..

[legion]

I you detest Norton, like I do, then vote with your remote...don't watch the pervy sleazbag.

[Merseybeat]

Originally posted by TwistofFate
Bugger off where?

Really, this could be quite the informative conversation......

I was referring to the ones who travel in convoys with old clapped-out trucks.

If you want an alternative lifestyle, fine, but sites are provided and there's no need to take over some vacant land and make it into a rubbish tip, as has happened near my place of work on a number of occasions.

[London_Calling]

Originally posted by Merseybeat
[B]I was referring to the ones who travel in convoys with old clapped-out trucks.

I'm still waiting for them to finish my driveway - said they were coming back with more tarmac three years ago ! Paid 'em cash as well ...


That reminds me, I heard this yesterday:

Q: What do you call a female scouser in a white shell suit ?

A: The bride

Thang yew, thang yew … have you bought tickets for the meat raffle yet ?

[Merseybeat]

Originally posted by London_Calling


Thang yew, thang yew … have you bought tickets for the meat raffle yet ?

Don't like meat much, so no.

Q. What do you call a male scouser in a suit?


A. The defendant. :D

[Kal]

Originally posted by Merseybeat
I was referring to the ones who travel in convoys with old clapped-out trucks.BZZZZ. Incorrect answer. You said, and I quote:

As for the CRE report about Irish travellers, there are also English ones as well. and the whole bunch of them are a fuckin' nuisance.Say after me, "I am a bad boy and should not make sweeping, insulting generalizations against entire ethnic groups then try and backtrack".

If you want an alternative lifestyle, fine, but sites are provided and there's no need to take over some vacant land and make it into a rubbish tip, as has happened near my place of work on a number of occasions. BZZZZ. Incorrect answer. The goverment itself has the following to say about the number of legal sites, from here (http://www.housing.odpm.gov.uk/information/index14.htm):
As at January 2002 there were 325 local authority Gypsy sites in England providing pitches for 5,005 caravans. This network of sites provides accommodation for just under 50% of Gypsy caravans.So, a large number of the travelling population have nowhere legal to stop and they park up on vacant lots. Because these are vacant, I think you'll agree that it's very unlikely for them to have access to proper waste disposal (both sewerage and garbage).

Now they could do what the government would like them to do: Buy and live on their own land. But there is a problem there. From here (http://www.cf.ac.uk/claws/tlru/ODP2.pdf) (warning - .pdf):At present the refusal rate for Gypsies who have applied for planning permission is approximately 90%, in contrast to the general success rate for all applications of over 80%.As an aside, the same cite has figures from the last 'Gypsy' counts before the abolition of part II of the Caravan Sites Act 1968:...recorded 13,329 caravans in England and Wales; of these, 6,063 were on a total of 324 council sites and 3,204 on private licensed sites, while 4,062 (appox 30%) were on `unauthorized' sites.Where was I? Oh, yeah, planning permission. Here's a nice, heart warming series of articles about ethnic cleansing, sorry, I mean what happens when Travellers buy their own land - I'll link to them in chronological order:

Gypsy experiment faces eviction (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2368099.stm)

Council denies Gypsy prejudice (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2370883.stm)

Gypsy eviction begins amid protests (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2395679.stm)

Gypsies face eviction (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2415961.stm)

Eviction plans delayed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2442287.stm)

I think I'll stop there, because I could provide cites all night - must be in the genes y'know.

On preview: L_C, sorry 'bout the delay mush, we'll be round a week on Tuesday. If you're not in, just leave the keys under the mat, so's we can have a nice cuppa. You ain't still got that big fucking dog, have ya?

[Merseybeat]

Originally posted by Kal

Say after me, "I am a bad boy and should not make sweeping, insulting generalizations against entire ethnic groups then try and backtrack".

I did not make sweeping insults against ethnic groups. I specifically mentioned Irish and English travellers - not all Irish and English people.

I mentioned the convoy travelling so that those in other countries would realise that I didn't mean people just travelling in the UK for business or vacation.

I also never mentioned gypsies. If you want to interpret what I say, please get it right.

[yojimbo]

Originally posted by Merseybeat
I did [B]not make sweeping insults against ethnic groups. I specifically mentioned Irish and English travellers - not all Irish and English people.

I mentioned the convoy travelling so that those in other countries would realise that I didn't mean people just travelling in the UK for business or vacation.


The travellers are the people you made sweeping insults against.

[Kal]

::searches pockets::

I know I've got a clue around here somewhere.

[Merseybeat]

Originally posted by yojimbo
The travellers are the people you made sweeping insults against.

Since when has choosing to live a certain lifestyle made you part of an ethnic group?

[Kal]

:smack: Dordhi! :smack:

[Francesca]

Merseybeat - Fucking ROMA, you fucking idiot. An ethnic group. One Kal is part of. Jesus H Christ.

[Infectious Lass]

Er....I think I should point out that in England (or at least the bit of it I am in) 'Irish travellers' are not regarded as being the same people as Romanies. And as far as I know they are a completely different people (I could be wrong but that's what I always heard)

Kal[/] and [b]Twistoffate, I don't think Merseybeat has a clue what you are on about. This isn't about the Romany people at all. This is about itinerant Irish people who travel around in the south of England. They have nothing to do with Romanies. All I can say is, I and everyone I know have had bad dealings with these people. They are rude, teach their children to be rude, they threaten and intimidate and trash and vandalise every place they go. No, I can't say that every one of them is like that, but sadly it looks as though most of them are.

I used to be idealistic and saying "no you can't say they are bad that's racist!" but guess what? one day some of these people had camped at some meadows near me where I was walking my dog and they threatened me! just for walking near their motorhomes in the place where I always walked. And this is not the only incident like that. I'm not idealistic about them anymore.

Sorry, but Travellers are scum. If they don't want people hating them maybe they should stop threatening people and trashing every single place they go. This is not just an isolated example, like I say *everyone* I know has stories like these. The police won't touch them because they are intimidated by them like anyone else. They are above the law and it is sickening. Kal and Twisty, This is not about the Romany people. The Irish travellers are not Romanies! In fact, the travellers are giving the Romanies a bad name.

I think Merseybeat is bewildered by you bringing in your political agendas about a completely seperate issue into this. This is not about anti-Romany prejudice.

[Merseybeat]

I was totally bewildered till Infectious Lass just explained it. I was indeed referring to those sorts of people and not Romanies.

I apologize if I offended anyone - it was certainly not meant to be a racial thing.

[Francesca]

Not all travellers are Roma. But there are some 15 million Romanis dispersed accross the world, a significant percentage of whom are travelling in the UK. When you are prejudiced against travellers in the UK, you are prejudiced against the Roma.

It's a cop-out to say "Travellers are scum... but I don't mean the Roma". The Roma are travellers. "Travellers are scum" logically includes "Roma are scum". You're trashing a way of life central to an ethnicity with anecdotes and rumours. I'm sure Kal will explain much more clearly than I could.

[London_Calling]

Order ! Order ! Only a few tickets left for the meat raffle !! ... don't come crying to me if you leave it too late ... next turn:

Whippets down t'trousers <da daaaa>


... 'ush down, Mr Snodgrass and don't leave your teeth on the table like that, gives folk a fright ...

[Merseybeat]

Is there any lovely tripe included in't meat raffle?

[Kal]

I'm sure Kal will explain much more clearly than I could.You explained pretty clearly Francesca. I'll add a couple of points though.

Traveller is the nice, polite term for all travelling people in Britain - be they Pavee (Irish Traveller), Romanichal (British Romanies), Showmen (Fairground folk), Circus families and any other group that lives life on the road. However, it should be noted that it particularly refers to the Romani and Pavee. Both of which are classed as ethnic groups.

So when somebody posts As for the CRE report about Irish travellers, there are also English ones as well. and the whole bunch of them are a fuckin' nuisance.I'm supposed to know which kind of Traveller they're talking about? Hard to do, mainly because of the "whole bunch of them" bit.

It gets fucking old reading or hearing people slag off Travellers - sometimes using slang terms that most British posters will know, slang terms that are specifically aimed at Romani people - Then backtrack and say something along the lines of "Oh no, I don't mean true Romanies. I mean the other ones". As Francesca said, it's a cop-out.

Bad analogy time; If someone was ranting about Europeans being scum, using terms like 'Brits' and 'Limeys' you'd be pissed off - even if later they clarify that they just mean Germans.

Infectious Lass:
Sorry, but Travellers are scum.See the definition of the term 'Traveller' that I posted above. Now, if you just meant Irish Travellers you'll be pleased to know that I've heard they also speak very highly of you.

L_C: Got any hedgehogs in that meat raffle, mate? I'm bloody starving!

[ruadh]

racer1:

you can’t seriously be arguing that something one guy has said proves that British people in general have anti-Irish tendencies?

Oh for heaven's sake, I gave that as a specific example which shows that anti-Irish sentiment still exists in Britain. This is quite a far cry from claiming that British people in general are anti-Irish, and I do resent you putting words in my mouth.

Malacandra:

I do not feel that even their most rabid Irish-rights advocate would ever presume to mention the status of the Irish in Britain in the same breath as the treatment of Black slaves in the pre-Civil War USA.

No, the Irish don't have it as bad as the slaves did. They also don't have it as bad as the Palestinians do, and I don't recall you popping up in each of the 100s of threads where that comparison has been made objecting to it.

Anyway, I'm simply drawing an analogy between two situations in which a socially-inferior minority subjects itself to ridicule for the amusement of the majority. There is no need to read this as implying the two minorities are equally inferior.

And as for the travellers ... what Kal says.

[Malacandra]

Originally posted by Francesca
Not all travellers are Roma. But there are some 15 million Romanis dispersed accross the world, a significant percentage of whom are travelling in the UK. When you are prejudiced against travellers in the UK, you are prejudiced against the Roma.

It's a cop-out to say "Travellers are scum... but I don't mean the Roma". The Roma are travellers. "Travellers are scum" logically includes "Roma are scum". You're trashing a way of life central to an ethnicity with anecdotes and rumours. I'm sure Kal will explain much more clearly than I could.

Nonsense, Francesca. What's inconsistent about saying "Roma (or "Romanies" or "Gypsies") don't, as far as I'm aware, cause much in the way of trouble, do a great deal of harm, or even come to my notice to any great extent, so they're welcome to their way of life. There are, however, some other 'travellers' who are a grade-A pain, and I could do without them very well"?

It's not a cop-out, but a simple qualification of a general case. How about if I said "I deeply distrust bearded men... but I don't mean Sikhs"?

[Kal]

In all my life I've never heard, "Roma (or "Romanies" or "Gypsies") don't, as far as I'm aware, cause much in the way of trouble, do a great deal of harm, or even come to my notice to any great extent, so they're welcome to their way of life. There are, however, some other 'travellers' who are a grade-A pain, and I could do without them very well". I've heard "Gypsy/Traveller/Pikey/Gyppo scum" quite a few times - Often followed by a cop-out that Romanies were not meant.

Your way of saying it sounds quite good. Unfortunately, it too falls into the "true, Romany Gypsy" trap. The true Romany has never existed - you can blame George Barrow for that stereotype. Fact is, most folks wouldn't know a Romani person if they were bitten on the ass by one.

Here's another .pdf:

http://www.cf.ac.uk/claws/tlru/Tolleys.pdf

There's a section in it that deals with the good Gypsy/bad Gypsy stereotypes, it's too large a section for me to quote within the SDMB guidelines.

ruadh: Sorry for the hijack. FWIW, I can understand why the Westlife skit offended you.

[London_Calling]

Originally posted by Merseybeat
Is there any lovely tripe included in't meat raffle?

Originally posted by Kal
L_C: Got any hedgehogs in that meat raffle, mate? I'm bloody starving!

Get a grip, gents. It’s – to borrow a word from Francesca – a FUCKING raffle, not the Crossroads cafeteria
Originally posted by Kal
If you're not in, just leave the keys under the mat, so's we can have a nice cuppa. You ain't still got that big fucking dog, have ya?

You’ve met ‘er in doors, then. I don't suppose she can go the same way as that tarmac I paid for ?



So anyway, I’d like to thank you all as I’m much wiser because of this thread. As I understand it now, Merseybeat (the scouser) nicks the car radio’s and Kal (the Pikey) fences them, and neither of ‘em is interested in this rack of lamb.

- End of stereotyping


Btw, genuinely interested in your hedgehog comment Kal – care to scotch my burning ignorance (I presume you’re a country type) ?

London - 'there's only one Amy Turtle' - Calling

[Kal]

Btw, genuinely interested in your hedgehog comment Kal – care to scotch my burning ignorance (I presume you’re a country type) ?Was. When we travelled, we kept ourselves out of the way as much as possible, stopping on farmland (mostly with permission of the farmer, I must add).

Anyway, hedgehogs or hotchiwitchis as we call 'em. Nah, we don't really eat 'em... Often, anyway. It's not like your average Romani family tucks into a dinner of hedgehog and chips every night - although it is quite funny to wind folks up by telling 'em we do. (I used to enjoy telling folks that we called squashed hedgehogs "Gypsy pizza").

They're more of a ritual thing used by a shiovano (shaman) and there's not that many shiovanos left nowdays. I suppose in the old days, if a family was really hungry, they may have been eaten more.

If you're really interested, the meat looks like dark chicken meat but tastes like a very strong pork. And you don't cook 'em rolled in mud, you burn the prickles off before cooking it.

[Merseybeat]

Originally posted by London_Calling

London - 'there's only one Amy Turtle' - Calling

Don't diss my favourite lady - Amy Turtle - she's a one-off (hopefully).

And I have trouble helping people fitting car radios, let alone removing them

[Racer1]

Originally posted by ruadh
racer1:



Oh for heaven's sake, I gave that as a specific example which shows that anti-Irish sentiment still exists in Britain. This is quite a far cry from claiming that British people in general are anti-Irish, and I do resent you putting words in my mouth.

*snip*

My apologies as it seems I misunderstood you, but since you had asked me specifically to read the report, I assumed you had disagreed with my earlier post where I mentioned that one person’s view does not mean there are widespread anti-Irish feelings in Britain. Of course there will be idiots in every country willing to put down people from any other country, so you have my full agreement there.

My mistake, and if you wanted me to comment on something else (rather than it just being a “for your info” thing) then please give me a kick in the right direction and I will answer as best I can. :)

Anyway, how about we just all agree to drink to all the disadvantaged people in any country next time we’re in a pub, and wish everyone equality and happiness? :)

[TwistofFate]

Merseybeat and Infectious lass,

Yes, there are a lot of issues that settled folk have with Travellers, but you can go back and say “ooh! I meant this sect of them, not them all” when questioned on it.

I completely agree that there are issues that the Pavees (and Roma, and Shinti, and showmen… have I left any out Kal?) are responsible for, just as there are issues that us settled folk are responsible for. But simply dismissing them all as “scum” is a pointless exercise, and ignorant. Would you know the difference between a Pavee camp and a Roma camp? if you saw one in a halting site or a roadside camp, what would you guess it is? If its clean, is it a Roma, but if it is a mess it Pavee?
I'm not actually saying that you would make that judgement, but I'm just trying to show you why it is wrong to "paint with the large brush" :)



I’m sorry to hear that you haven’t had any good experiences with Travellers, but it’s still no excuse to just wholesale dismiss them all as scum.

[jjimm]

When I was a kid in Hampshire, I was in the local woods, and me and my mate found a still-warm campfire. On the ashes was a ball of clay, hollow and broken in two, with hedgehog spines embedded in it. Nifty way to simultaneously cook and despine a tasty hedgehoggy treat.

[The Clawman]

I didn't know "Pikey" was a derogatory term for Travelling people. I've only heard it used to describe Wayne and Waynetta types. Oh well, Ignorance Fought and all that.

[bifar]

<another hi-jack>

Was that the lovely New Forest, jjimm? Cos I hark from there. I like to think I have a tiny bit of <insert random romantic see-above traveller race here> blood in me as my great-great uncle chose to live in a charcoal-burning stove (without the charcoal in it) in the middle of the Forest and catch snakes.

[jjimm]

Originally posted by bifar
<another hi-jack>

Was that the lovely New Forest, jjimm? Cos I hark from there. I like to think I have a tiny bit of <insert random romantic see-above traveller race here> blood in me as my great-great uncle chose to live in a charcoal-burning stove (without the charcoal in it) in the middle of the Forest and catch snakes. <sustaining hijack> Alas, no, though I've been to the New Forest and think it's a magical place. And not well enough publicised to tourists (though maybe that's a good thing). Charcoal burning stove? I've seen them in real life, but never converted. Unfortunately, our woods was a small bit of Church Crookham that hadn't (then) been developed. I'd imagine now that it's subsumed in a housing estate.

[Kal]

I completely agree that there are issues that the Pavees (and Roma, and Shinti, and showmen… have I left any out Kal?)Well I don't think we have many Sinti over here (I do know of one or two though), but the Romanichal are related to them and the Manush.

Here's a factsheet about Travelling people: http://www.cf.ac.uk/claws/tlru/Factsheet.pdf - Once again, it's a .pdf.

From it, we get a list of people who fit under the label of 'Traveller':

The terms `Travellers' or `Travelling people' could usually be taken to include Gypsies, whether English, Welsh or Scottish; Irish Travellers; so-called `New' Travellers some of whom are third generation; Roma people from Europe who have obtained refugee status; fairground families; and Bargees and other boat-dwelling people. In other words, people who are, or have traditionally been, associated with a nomadic lifestyle: around 200,000-300,000 individuals
I'd add Circus folk to the list.

You're welcome.

Oh yeah, 'nother little linkeroonie to be found here. (http://www.cf.ac.uk/claws/tlru/Info.html) It covers Traveller issues such as Demography. Needs, Behaviour and Invisibility (and no, that last one doesn't mean some Romani magic trick). Interesting read, but I'm sure that Outraged, of Staines will just think of it as the whitterings of Traveller apologists who don't know what these people are really like, they're evil I tell you, eeeviiiiiillllll!"

jjimm: Ah, there you see the dangers of my posting late at night. Where I said:And you don't cook 'em rolled in mud, you burn the prickles off before cooking it.Please read:And you don't just cook 'em rolled in mud, you burn the prickles off before cooking it.You shave 'em too.

[jjimm]

I didn't know that you shaved 'em too. Surely not terribly hygienic: I had a pet hedgehog until it gave me lice.

[TwistofFate]

I can just see the Gillette Corporation planning a new "target demographic" ad campaign......

[Kal]

You burn the spines (I assume to kill any fleas and also to make it easier to handle), shave the fur and then use the mud.

Interesting thing is that while non-Romani people often think of hedgehogs as being dirty, because of the fleas and such, in Romani culture they are seen as being a ritually pure animal.

That said though, it's still not eaten a whole lot and I'd have to guess that most Romani folk have never tasted it. Bacon is our meat of choice.

Twisty: Gillette - 9 out of 10 hedgehogs prefer it.

[Malacandra]

Originally posted by ruadh


No, the Irish don't have it as bad as the slaves did. They also don't have it as bad as the Palestinians do, and I don't recall you popping up in each of the 100s of threads where that comparison has been made objecting to it.



How's "Because I didn't see the other thread" as an excuse?

'Sides, it doesn't alter the basic fact that someone in this thread tried to lump Irish in Britain along with Black slaves, and I cried "silly" on the comparison. You'd do better arguing with what I say, if you think I'm wrong, than complaining that I didn't advance an analogous argument somewhere else.

Originally posted by ruadh

Anyway, I'm simply drawing an analogy between two situations in which a socially-inferior minority subjects itself to ridicule for the amusement of the majority. There is no need to read this as implying the two minorities are equally inferior.


Analogy your grandmother. In even trying to equate the two situtations you're pushing the analogy to breaking point.

[London_Calling]

Originally posted by Kal
If you're really interested, the meat looks like dark chicken meat but tastes like a very strong pork. And you don't cook 'em rolled in mud, you burn the prickles off before cooking it.

Yes, very interested. And fascinated. What a striking taste hotchiwitchis seems to have. Looking at them, I wonder if there’s quite a lot of meat, relatively speaking, on those fairly small frames … in fact, I think I will look at them a little more closely from now on ….

Yes, yes, a clay oven over a wood fire .... hmmmm ...

This might sound silly, but I find myself thinking of an appropriate sauce to complement roast hotchiwitchis. From your description it sounds, possibly, rather gamey …. ?

[everton]

My two penn’orth:
Graham Norton’s show isn’t worth watching anymore
…even if it ever was. He’s never been my cup of tea, but at least his show used to be original and inventive. Stretching it to five shows a week has spread the jam too thinly though. Too much praise from critics has bloated his ego as well, so he’s long since lost track of the difference between an amusing skit and offensive cruelty. Robin Gibb recently threatened him with physical violence after comments he made about Maurice’s death for example.

Westlife are simple-minded media whores
Their 15 minutes expired some time ago and I can’t imagine who would miss them if the gong sounded now. Blue anyone? Busted? There are plenty more cuddly toys on the conveyor belt.

Travellers
There are people who live mobile lives following a long-standing tradition, and others who have taken it up comparatively recently. All are easy targets because they are, by definition, outsiders. Prejudice against them may be (similar to) racism or it may be a reaction to a bad personal experience. Neither is OK. You shouldn’t make rash generalisations or judge a person because at first sight they remind you of somebody else you don’t like. In any case, plenty of people have no respect for their neighbours or the environment around them – there’s nothing unusual about people who live in caravans.

Most of us take our share of abuse from the ignorant
Perhaps I sound less like Jimmy Corkhill than Merseybeat does, but I’ve been on the receiving end of some ugly comments too. I can laugh at the scouser jokes if they’re told without malice, but often they’re not.

I don’t believe that Irish people suffer more prejudice than other ethnic categories in the UK, but that doesn’t make it OK
Anything that encourages contempt for a group of people is unacceptable unless they are the ones with the power. You shouldn’t need the CRE to explain that – it’s common sense.
I didn’t see the show (on St. Pat’s of all days I had better places to be than sitting in front of a television at 10pm). Perhaps dickheads like Philip Green are unlikely to have been watching it either because I can’t imagine he’s exactly gay-friendly. Norton and Westlife can indeed fuck off but you’ll have to mail me when it happens ’cos I won’t be paying attention.

[Kal]

L_C: They're nice and fat in the Autumn.

As to the taste, the clues in the name - hedgehog. But, like I said, a little bit stonger then pork. Mind you, I have only eaten it once or twice and that was over 20 years ago, so my memory may be off a little.

On preview: Good post, everton.

[Gyrate]

Originally posted by everton
Graham Norton’s show isn’t worth watching anymore
…even if it ever was. He’s never been my cup of tea, but at least his show used to be original and inventive. Stretching it to five shows a week has spread the jam too thinly though. Graham used to be much funnier and much less insulting. I think trying to drag out one show's worth of jokes to five shows has pushed him over the edge. If I hear one more Michael Douglas joke, I'm gonna spew.Westlife are simple-minded media whores
Their 15 minutes expired some time ago and I can’t imagine who would miss them if the gong sounded now. Blue anyone? Busted? There are plenty more cuddly toys on the conveyor belt.I agree again. Westlife are an insult to Ireland just by existing. Most of us take our share of abuse from the ignorant
Perhaps I sound less like Jimmy Corkhill than Merseybeat does, but I’ve been on the receiving end of some ugly comments too. I can laugh at the scouser jokes if they’re told without malice, but often they’re not.Any views on Harry Enfield's depictions? "Are you fightin'?" "Are you askin'?"

[Malacandra]

Kal: Thanks for your several informative posts on this thread. It's true that I wouldn't know a Pavee camp from a Roma one by sight, although I'd hazard a guess that the latter have had a travelling lifestyle since before English was a language and probably don't accumulate piles of rubbish in the first place, let alone leave it in a stopping-place where (a) it would annoy the locals and (b) other Roma might be stopping some time.

Of fair folk and circus folk I know next to nothing, and again, I'd assume that since their living depends to some extent on not making a bad name for themselves, on the whole they aim to cause no trouble, and judging by how seldom I hear any bad of them I'd guess that they succeed. As to bargees, I had no idea there still were any; and I'd have to live a lot nearer a major waterway to even notice them.

Where I live (Norfolk) I see the occasional caravan that I take to be Romany; I think it's the same one that I've seen on and off over the last five years or so - a little horse-drawn bow-topped thing (no idea what the right word is). Beyond thinking "How pretty", and not staring too hard at what, after all, is someone's home, and shutting off the throttle on my noisy vehicle so as not to frighten the horse, I've hardly given it a thought. I suppose, to an extent, I venerate the Romany lifestyle for its antiquity - even though I freely admit that all I really know about it could be painted on my garden shed with a three-inch brush and still leave room for Psalm 119.

I can only reiterate that when I think of "Travellers" I make the same "Travellers-as-opposed-to-real-Gypsies" distinction that's been stated earlier on this thread, and insofar as I ever use or understand the word "pikey", it doesn't apply to "real Gypsies". (I'll put in the :rolleyes: here and save you the trouble.)

Well - I've shown off enough of my ignorance for now. I'll shut up and listen.

[Malacandra]

And a PS: Can't comment on hedgehogs, but I could just about live off roadkill pheasant in these parts if I were so minded. I've had the odd one, but Mrs M isn't keen on the smell (and, raw, they do pong a bit after they've been hung a day or two).

[everton]

Originally posted by jr8
Any views on Harry Enfield's depictions? "Are you fightin'?" "Are you askin'?"
Hmm, that's an interesting one. I s'pose it doesn't bother me much except that it became boring through repetition. Enfield might earn some of the blame for the bad rap we've taken over recent years, but I think it's more that people who already wanted to slag us off used his characters as a kickoff point for impersonations. It's a bit like the John Major impression Rory Bremner used to do – once you've heard it you too can "do" John Major.

People who want to slag off Liverpool tend to wear their own ignorance like a badge in my experience (or else they're from Manchester), so it's not worth getting worked up about it. And anyway, there's a shred of truth in the characters that serves a salutory lesson to a few people. It's never a good idea to be a "professional" Scouser, Yorksireman, Scot, Cockney, American or whatever and that's how I took Enfield's jokes.

If I was looking for an anti-scouse propagandist to hate it would be Carla Lane rather than Harry Enfield. Don't get me started on fucking Bread :mad:.

[Kal]

Regarding illegal sites and rubbish, I'll quote from this article (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/travellers.htm), which is expanded version of a speech by Eli Frankham:

A popular concept of a Gypsy camp is a roadside settlement littered and fouled, with no sanitation or refuse disposal. Filth and squalor unbridled. Everyone of you here can imagine it in your mind's eye quite visibly, I am sure. The next part takes a bit more concentration.

Imagine one of your council estates in the middle of town, before it becomes privatised, with it's high concentration of children and household pets such as cats and dogs. Now imagine the water supply being disconnected, permanently, no more water on tap, no more hot baths, no more hot showers, no more toilets being flushed. Now imagine it's road being torn up and the refuse disposal service being abolished, you now have no water, no road and your own litter in your house is in the garden. After four to five days the refuse bin is full, after a week it is overflowing with cats and dogs foraging around amongst it. The toilet is still not getting flushed, three days, three weeks, three months later. Can you now imagine it? Imagine it! You can almost smell it! After six months of council tenants or private house owners living in conditions like this, it would be the Gypsies down the road complaining to the authorities about the health hazards, the squalor and the filth which would be lowering the tone of their neighbourhood.

I say to you, any encampment of Travellers without the basic facilities of water, sanitary and refuse disposal is an indictment of the local authorities who should have by law the legal obligation to supply such minimal services which every householder takes for granted and all too often would willingly deny to others.

And also this, from here: (http://www.cf.ac.uk/claws/tlru/bill.html) There are between 200,000 and 300,000 Travelling People in the United Kingdom. The majority of these people are Gypsies - whether English, Welsh or Scottish - and Irish Travellers, racial groups under the protection of the Race Relations Acts. At least 1/3 of these people have no safe, legal and secure stopping place, and many such people have no access to water, refuse disposal and other essential services.

Regarding 'Pikey': A Google search for "pikey slang" will throw up a fair few results. It means a 'Gypsy' or vagabond. It also seems to now mean low-lifes in general so maybe the new definition should be "Gypsies, vagabonds and other assorted low-lifes". It, and 'Gyppo' (it's clear which group that word is aimed at) are becoming the British version of the American term 'Trailer Trash'.

A horse-drawn caravan is called a vardo or varda and they are not seen much anymore. I'd hazard a guess that most of them you see on the road are those I've seen on 'Holiday' or 'Wish you were here' that you can rent for a week.

Finally, to Infectious Lass:I think Merseybeat is bewildered by you bringing in your political agendas about a completely seperate issue into this.It isn't about my political agenda (you'll see that come April 8th - Roma Nation Day), it's about fighting ignorance. It was said that there were sites provided for Travellers, I've shown that there ain't enough. It was said that the term 'Traveller' has nothing to do with Romanies, I've shown (as has Francesca) that it bloody well does. So, while I've fought ignorance, you've just posted a piece of crap that looks better suited for the letters page of your local newspaper.

[everton]

Originally posted by Kal
So, while I've fought ignorance, you've just posted a piece of crap that looks better suited for the letters page of your local newspaper.
Looks like they have some space to fill too (http://www.stainesguardian.co.uk/views/index.html).

[yojimbo]

The Staines massive aren't that much of letter writers then ;)

[Kal]

everton: That is fucking classic. :)

[Tir Tinuviel]

Originally posted by TwistofFate
I can't really answer for the "irish worse off in Britain" bit...
I know a certain girlies life which would be improved by the presence of a certain Irishman being in Britain...

:D

[Gyrate]

Originally posted by yojimbo
The Staines massive aren't that much of letter writers then ;) They haven't got any opinions either, apparently.

[Malacandra]

Originally posted by Kal
A horse-drawn caravan is called a vardo or varda and they are not seen much anymore. I'd hazard a guess that most of them you see on the road are those I've seen on 'Holiday' or 'Wish you were here' that you can rent for a week.


You're undoubtedly right, but I'm fairly sure that I saw one in a field near where I live only last week or so, and it's moved on now. It looked like the one I've mentioned already, though a brief glance from a hundred-odd yards away falls some way short of proof. I'll hazard my own guess that the tail-end of winter is an odd time to go holiday-making, so I'm guessing it's what you might call the real McCoy.

Norfolk's probably more horse-friendly than most of the country, what with not being heavily urbanised and, famously, flat.

What do gypsies do for a living (insofar as it's possible or reasonable to sum up a whole people in a sentence or two)?

[Gary Kumquat]

Kal, I hate to continue the hijack further and should probably ask this in a separate thread, but:

Originally posted by Kal
I say to you, any encampment of Travellers without the basic facilities of water, sanitary and refuse disposal is an indictment of the local authorities who should have by law the legal obligation to supply such minimal services which every householder takes for granted and all too often would willingly deny to others.

Out of interest, who pays for the provision of these services. It's my understanding that travellers do not pay council tax, or water rates. I would appreciate if you could correct me on this.

[Kal]

Malacandra: Traditionally, those who travel do scrap dealing, fruit picking, building work, metal work, etc.

However, there are a high percentage of Romani people who are settled - either living on permanent sites or houses (more Romani people are settled then are on the road in the UK, IIRC - It's kinda hard to tell because the government doesn't count us settled ones as 'Gypsies', you won't even see us listed on census forms*) They may do any kind of job that other settled folk do.

Ian Hancock, a British Rom who is now a professor at the University of Texas, used to work as a paint sprayer. I know of at least one Traveller girl who is studying law. My dad was a lorry driver, a shunter at some London Transport depot, all kinds of jobs. Okay, he robbed post offices too, but..

Basically, Romani people are just that - people. They have hopes and dreams and aspirations, just like evrybody else.

Gary: Travellers on Local Authority sites, private sites and their own land pay for the services provided. Those who live on illegal sites don't pay anything because they don't get anything.

It costs Local Authorites more money to evict Travellers from illegal sites and (as I linked to above) even their own land then it would to provide official sites for them.

Linkeroonie (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2234956.stm)

One example of how this all works is that privately owned site. The council spent thousands going to court and then evicting them from the land they bloody owned. Then, because they've been evicted from their land, they are now homeless. The council has a duty to provide housing for homeless people.

From here (http://www.romnews.com/community/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1035&mode=&order=):In an eleventh hour agreement, Mid Bedfordshire District Council agreed to recognize the Codona family as "homeless", in return for a withdrawal on their part of an application for a judicial review.
Not only have the Condonas been formally registered as homeless - because their caravan park remains 'unauthorized' - but they have been awarded highest priority for re-accomodation.

<snip>

The agreement authorized by Justive Gavin Lightman would, apparantly, apply to all those who own or have occupied plots at Woodside since l998. About 50 families in all.

I'll run that by you again: A group of Travelling families buy an existing caravan site. Long, drawn out court battle over planning permission starts. Eventually, the council wins and starts tearing the site down and evicting the residents. The families are now homeless. The council has to provide the now homeless families accommodation. You see how fucking stupid that is?

I should also mention that the law is pretty fucked up. In this country, it's not illegal to travel. It is, however, illegal to stop.

*On census and equal opportunity forms , I get pissed off and put myself down as Indian - Other. ;)

[London_Calling]

Originally posted by Kal
My dad was a lorry driver, a shunter at some London Transport depot, all kinds of jobs. Okay, he robbed post offices too, but..

See, it's a busman's holiday. All his work had to do with travelling - some of it very fast ...

[Kal]

The gavvers thought he was the Black Panther, y'know.

[TwistofFate]

and not Dick Turpin?

[Kal]

Compared to my dad, Dick Turpin was a fine, upstanding member of society. Shit, compared to my dad, the Krays were fine, upstanding members of society.

[Kal]

Actually, I think the Krays were part Romani. Grandad had the surname Lee, used to be a boxer at fairgrounds.

[Kal]

Ah, here you go.

From here: (hhttp://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/mob_bosses/kray/up_2.html?sect=15)

The Krays were an old-fashioned East End family: self sufficient, very clannish and devoted to each other. Their ancestors had arrived in Britain from Austria, and the twins had Irish, Jewish and Romany (gypsy) blood in their veins.

[London_Calling]

I used to have a superb local … this was some time ago now. Reading about Kal's dad reminds me of some of the characters back then. One in particular was the worst, most unlucky, most ineffectual criminal you could possibly imagine, and - whever he was released from Her Majesty's pleasure - he used to enjoy telling tales of just how bad he was.

One of my favourites was when some old friends of his recruited him as the getaway driver for … a post office snatch. They supplied the (stolen) car, all he had to do was drive extremely fast to the ‘changeover’ point. Which he did.

Unfortunately they were chased and, even more unfortunately, he’d forgotten to put any petrol in the tank … they came to an undignified halt (according to him) in the middle of Wandsworth Bridge) with the Old Bill right up their exhaust pipe. He told the story much better than I do …

[Kal]

One of the best stories I remember about my dad was the time he'd turned over some shop.

Anyway, he's nicked for it a couple of weeks later and the case goes to court.

Some gavver goes to the witness stand and says that he chased my dad over the Co-op roof. He knew it was my dad because it was lit up there and he's seen my dad quite clearly in the lights.

So then they call forward this other witness, some old fella.

Unfortunately for the coppers, he said that my dad couldn't have been on the roof. He was busy at the time, what with hiding in an alley with his arm across the old guy's throat, telling him that if he tried to call for help then he'd do him.

They threw the case out and gave the gavver a bollocking for telling porkies.

[Gary Kumquat]

Oh, this will probably get me into trouble, but help me lord I can't but ask.

Kal, don't you find it at all contradictory that first you complain that travellers are a much maligned breed cruelly moved on by the rest of society - and then you go onto a story about your dad robbing a shop and threatening an old man with violence?

[Kal]

Why's it contradictory?

My dad wasn't a very nice bloke, but that has nothing at all to do with him being Romani.

If someone has read this thread and the fact that I've mentioned my dad broke the law proves to them that -

Travellers are scumThen fuck 'em. Because none of the other stuff I've posted would have changed their minds about that anyway.

Like I said, we're people just like you. Most of us are law abiding, a small number ain't.

Here's (http://www.camcnty.gov.uk/sub/resrchgp/travel/susp.htm) an article about crime amongst the Travelling community. Seems to show that the crime rate is around the national average. I think one of my other cites mentioned crime statistics too.

Oh, this will probably get me into troubleReindeer. ;)

[Kal]

Also, Gary:
first you complain that travellers are a much maligned breed cruelly moved on by the rest of society

They're your words, not mine.

Looking back through this thread, I feel that I've kept the emotive rhetoric to a bare minimum. This I've done by posting facts, backed up by cites.

If you feel my responding to ignorant statements - that when backed at all are only backed with anecdotes - is complaining saddens me.

[Kal]

Saddens me so much, in fact, that I was unable to write a coherent_final sentence for my last post.

[Gary Kumquat]

Originally posted by Kal
Looking back through this thread, I feel that I've kept the emotive rhetoric to a bare minimum. This I've done by posting facts, backed up by cites.

If you feel my responding to ignorant statements - that when backed at all are only backed with anecdotes - is complaining saddens me.
Ah reindeers, me and my big mouth. Sorry Kal, really didn't meant to sadden you or get your back up, just thought it funny.

[Kal]

Don't worry about it mate.

I do understand how it could be seen as contradictory, but if you think about it, the issue of my dad's criminal activities has nothing to do with site allocation.

Now, if I were to have claimed that Romani people committed no crime at all then told the story about my dad, I'd be contradicting myself.

Of course, I'd then point out that the case was thrown out so he was technically innocent.

Anyhoo, tell you what, if we ever meet at a Dopefest I'll be more than happy to share a pint or two with ya.

Does this thread win an award for most hijacks?

[TwistofFate]

where can I get a Matchbox DieCast model of the A-Team van?

[Kal]

I think you get one if you join the Graham Norton fan club. Want me to sign you up, Twisty?

[Freudian Slit]

Originally posted by ruadh
If N'Sync were black and giving this performance to white folk, that would be it in a nutshell.

Um...if N'Sync were black, they wouldn't be performing in blackface...hence, it wouldn't be offensive.

[Malacandra]

Originally posted by Kal

Does this thread win an award for most hijacks?

If it's nominated for an award for "Best and most informative hijack of a thread that started out as a really lame snivel", count on my vote!