A question about Islam

[Aankh]

Islamic women have to/choose to wear burkhas in many countries. Adultery seems to be a severely punishable offence.

My question is, are these rules taken directly from the Quran e Sharif, that is, are they religious rules? Or are they a more social phenomenon, that is, stemming from interpretation for social convenience?

[kniz]

Straight from the Prophet, himself (the Quran e Sharif, as you said).

[kniz]

Of course, he relied on the Jewish Scriptures (known to some as the Old Testament).

[x-ray vision]

Cite kniz? I don't know of anywhere in the Quran where it is written for women to wear burkhas.

the following is all I could find in the Quran:



"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their chests and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers..." [continuing list of family members and others in front of whom women are exempt from covering] (Qur'an 24:30-31)

[Aankh]

kniz, could you come up with a cite? because based on x-ray vision's post, it seems more interpretation than religious decree.

[Monty]

aasna: The Old Testament was extant before Muhammed's time. The Qu'ran was not penned until after his death. There are numerous similarities. What's your conclusion?

[Aankh]

Monty, I don't quite understand what your point is.

[Tamerlane]

Originally posted by aasna
Islamic women have to/choose to wear burkhas in many countries. Adultery seems to be a severely punishable offence.

My question is, are these rules taken directly from the Quran e Sharif, that is, are they religious rules? Or are they a more social phenomenon, that is, stemming from interpretation for social convenience?

Adultery is a punishable offense for both men and women and that is in the Qur'an, including a proscribed punishment of 100 lashes.

024.002
YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
PICKTHAL: The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.
SHAKIR: (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

However more severe punishments ( including death by stoning ) are advanced in certain hadith, the sayings of Muhammed and his followers. The extent to which the latter are acknowledged ( in this case, as with many others ) are variable ( one dispute is nobody seems sure whether the Qur'anic verse that specifies flogging came before or after accounts in the hadith of stoning ).

However technically it should damn-near impossible to prove adultery in Islam ( unless someone was caught performing at some sort of live sex show ) as four witnesses to the act are required.

024.004
YUSUFALI: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
PICKTHAL: And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony - They indeed are evil-doers -
SHAKIR: And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,

A husband making a claim against his wife can technically act as sole witness by repeating the claim four times, but the wife can nullify that by charging him as a liar four times ( both are subject to being struck down by God for lying of course ). That's covered in 4 more verses, so I won't bother reproducing the above cascade of translations for them, ( they can be found here, 24: 6-10 : http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html#024.002 ).

Of course, when I say technically, I mean just that - Obviously that's not how things always play out in the real world.

As to the burkha - The Qur'an enjoins modesty ( in both women and men ) and gives a little bit of ( arguable ) detail, but the burkha per se is cultural.

- Tamerlane

[Monty]

aasna: It looked to me like you were asking how Muhammed could've based his stuff on the OT. The Burkha issue isn't tied into that answer. I believe you're completely right about it being merely interpretation as there's a wide range of practices in the Muslim world of what constitutes modest covering of the woman's head. Some places (Malaysia, for instance) have a common practice of just having a type of scarf which covers the woman's hair; other places (certain people in the UAE, for example) use a mask to cover the woman's face in addition to having a scarf to cover her hair.

[x-ray vision]

Monty, aasna didn't even mention the OT. What aasna is asking is if the rules regarding the wearing of burkhas and punishment for adultery were taken from the Quran, and if not, where did the rules come from.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by aasna
Islamic women have to/choose to wear burkhas in many countries. Adultery seems to be a severely punishable offence.

My question is, are these rules taken directly from the Quran e Sharif, that is, are they religious rules? Or are they a more social phenomenon, that is, stemming from interpretation for social convenience?

Item of note, Quran e Sharif is Farsi.

Next, burkha or chador is but one form of covering that some Muslims believe to be required by the rules of modesty.

More simply and far more common is the simple Hijab, which is some form of head scarf / wrap falling to the shoulders. It make or make not be combined with the veil (Niqab).

Intepretation of what is required does indeed vary widely and always has, even before Western influence. Hair covering was pretty universal, but after that, there always has been a wide range of opinion on this.

I should note that some scholars feel the Burkha/Chador and similar habits seen in the Gulf (including the rather sexy eagle masks in the Gulf States) are in fact Sassanid Persian influences.

[Monty]

x-ray: Just for the heck of it, please, in the future, don't "correct" someone five hours after they've already corrected themselves. Okay?

[medstar]

I have a question about the hijab, niqad or burqa that modest Muslim women wear. What about the color? Does it have to be black? Could a Saudi woman wear a purple burqa as long as the cloth covers everything the black burqa covers? What about a sheer burqa? What degree of sheerness would be forbidden?

[x-ray vision]

Monty, you didn't correct yourself. As a matter of fact you tried to justify what you wrote by implying that it looked like aasna was asking how Muhammed could have based his writings on the O.T. And I'll correct anyone I please. Okay?

Sorry aasna, I don't want to use your thread as a forum to bitch at another poster, but I had to correct Monty's attempt at correcting me. ;)

[Aankh]

give it a rest, dearies. there's enough in life without having to bother about silly ego clashes. you're both fine, yes? shake on it now. :)

medstar, the reason i started this thread was i suspected the hijab was a culturally mediated business. that's the only reason which would account for my seeing Malay Muslims wearing only a head-scarf (called a tudung) and Dubai Muslims wearing multicoloured versions of the head-to-toe hijab (but the face was often left uncovered). as x-ray vision cited, there doesn't seem to be a direct edict about this in the Quran.

regarding your question about women in Saudi, my experience is indirect...just a my recollection of hearsay. my mother happened to spend some time there and she found that a pure black hijab was compulsory. eyes had to be covered by a mesh and i don't think hijab transparency was a valid loophole :p. if you can see through, it's not right.

so there you go.

[Aankh]

almost forgot.
tamerlane, a very complete answer. thank you!

[Monty]

Christ, x-ray. That's not a justification of myself. Keep up, will you? I said that it looked like it. That's all I said. Again, keep up.

[Monty]

Christ, x-ray. That's not a justification of myself. Keep up, will you? I said that it looked like she was asking for something along those lines. For those of us familiar with language, that obviously means that it looked like that to me. That's all I said. Again, keep up, but this time without your obviously poor mind-reading "skill."

[Monty]

Dratted server! Sorry about the semi-double posting. #2 is the correct one.

[medstar]

Thanks, aasna.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by medstar
I have a question about the hijab, niqad or burqa that modest Muslim women wear. What about the color? Does it have to be black? Could a Saudi woman wear a purple burqa as long as the cloth covers everything the black burqa covers? What about a sheer burqa? What degree of sheerness would be forbidden?

First on the vocab:
Niqab: the veil that covers the face.
Hijab: in general simply the head covering, some people use it to refer to a total covering.
Abaya: long flowing dress, typical of the Gulf, e.g.
Chador/Burqa: the head to toe get up tht covers the face as well, not a hijab.

The color is a cultural item, the Gulf prefers black for traditional reasons, outside people wear purple or green or whatnot. Black is also prefered by the Bedouine. It has, I am led to understand, contra what you migth expect, heat disappating properties.

Obviously sheerness that is really sheer defeats the ostensible purpose, on the other hand I have seen some ... really interesting 'Abaya' in upper class areas.

[psychonaut]

Originally posted by Tamerlane
As to the burkha - The Qur'an enjoins modesty ( in both women and men ) and gives a little bit of ( arguable ) detail, but the burkha per se is cultural.Oh, really? If the burkha is not considered modest, I'd like to know what is. Wearing a paper bag over one's head, perhaps? :D

[istara]

Originally posted by Collounsbury
Black is also prefered by the Bedouine. It has, I am led to understand, contra what you migth expect, heat disappating properties.
We expats hear this "heat dissipating" thing a lot. I took it for read, until I actually spoke to a Jordanian woman, who wears coloured hijabs. She said friends of hers in black found them nightmarishly hot.

Also - if black is a better dissipater of heat than white, wouldn't men wear it too? Especially as they are likely to be more outdoors more often than women? Here in the UAE at least, the only time one seems men wearing darker colours - including black - is in winter time.

Interesting anyway. I certainly find wearing fabric of ANY colour better in the extreme midday sun than having bare arms or shoulders.

[refusal]

Originally posted by istara
We expats hear this "heat dissipating" thing a lot. I took it for read, until I actually spoke to a Jordanian woman, who wears coloured hijabs. She said friends of hers in black found them nightmarishly hot.

Also - if black is a better dissipater of heat than white, wouldn't men wear it too? Especially as they are likely to be more outdoors more often than women? Here in the UAE at least, the only time one seems men wearing darker colours - including black - is in winter time.

This is just a guess as to why they wear it, but black is good at radiating heat and absorbing radiant heat (e.g. heat from the sun). Therefore, if you were indoors out of sunlight (and most heat was coming from inside you, or from warm air), black might be effective at keeping you cool. If women spent more time indoors than men, black might make sense for woman but not men. (I don't know how significant the difference in colour would be, however.)

[Grey]

<hijack continues>
Light coloured clothing over darker robes would minimize incident energy absorption while allowing the body to cool at a maximum rate. Assuming a breeze or course, else you're toast.
</hijack>