How far could a sniper shoot?

[jovan]

So I was reading some of the adventures of Golgo 13, the world's most terrifying hitman, the most mind-blowing (quite literally) sniper... and I got to wonder just how realistic his skills would be.

It's common knowledge in the manga that Golgo 13 can pick off a moving target at a distance of one kilometer.

How far away could a very good shot, in the real world, consistently hit a target? Moving or otherwise?

[Shagnasty]

With a normal hunting type sniper rifle, a really skilled shooter could consistently hit a human sized target at 300 - 400 yards. Anything more than that would be a real stretch, especially if it was moving.

However, huge 50 cal rifles are often used in competitions to hit 1 foot circles from 1000 yards away. Those are not the types of guns typically used by snipers but it is possible.

[mrcrow]

300 seems a long way.
there are so man variables.:)

[mrcrow]

sorry i should have posted 400 yards..:)

[Rodd Hill]

The record stands at something like 2,430 metres:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1026271952413_269/

[Mr. Moto]

Special forces snipers do, in fact, use .50-cal. rifles on occasion.

[breaknrun]

Do a search for Carlos Hathcock, a marine sniper. His most famous kill was from 2500 yards with a .50 caliber Browning. Top shooters could be consistent at 1000 yards.

[handy]

How would they compensate for the effect of gravity on the bullet?

[Mr. Moto]

You compensate by sighting in for longer distances. Trained snipers can also compensate for bullet drop and wind conditions by adjusting their sights accordingly.

It's an art form in and of itself. Google .50-cal target competition and read about all of the things shooters must account for.

[Crafter_Man]

There are many variables in effect when trying to hit past 400 yards. These include bullet drop (due to gravity), wind speed, wind direction, temperature, humidity, and elevation. There are also components that contribute to random error such as variations in bullets (weight, diameter, etc.), variations in propellant, barrel temperature, buildup of powder and copper in the barrel, etc. And of course, there’s human error, which is usually the most significant component.

The Army says 800 yards is the practical limit for 7.62 x 51; the Marines say 1000 yards. At any rate, 95% of shooters have an extremely tough time beyond 300 yards. Only a handful of people can shoot 7.62 x 51 at 800 yards and beyond.

[SteveAtlanta]

If you are interested in the mechanics and tecniques of sniping, especially in the military sense, then check The History Channel. They run a sporadic series of episodes with names like "Sniper - One Shot, One Kill" and "Sniper - Stalk and Kill." The equipment, techniques and training are explained in detail during these hour-long episodes.

From those programs and from an acquaintence who just retired from the field, I can give some comments. As a previous poster said, trained Scout/Snipers can consistently fire a killing shot from a prone position using a good rifle and scope at 800 to 1,000 yards. The Barrett .50 has been fired accurately to just over one mile (1,760 yards). For the shot mentioned by a previous poster, Carlos Hathcock used a scope-mounted M2 .50 calibre machine gun, but firing a single shot. An M2, or "Ma Deuce" is that huge base-pounted machine gun mounted on tanks, Jeeps, ships, riverine patrol boats and tripods since World War II and still used widely today.

[Rhum Runner]

I don't know the game Golgo 13, but it sounds like an assassination type situation (hitman). In that case, I suspect the range might be extended beyond 1000m a bit. From a prepared position, and a proper solid rest, with exaclty known ranges etc. the sniper could considerably reduce the variables. With special low drag coefficient bullets and some wildcat cartridge, I suspect you could extend the range out to 1500 yards at least, even without going to the .50 cal. When Hathcock made his record shot he was (IIRC from reading the book about him some years ago) firing from a hilltop firebase, not crawling around in the jungle.

[Padeye]

The OP asked about moving targets and that's in thre realm of pure fantasy at that range. A kilometre is about a thousand yards. At that range a hit on a human torso is difficult even under the best of circumstances. While one minute of angle isn't difficult at 100 yards it becomes much more difficult at a thousand. Wind pushes the bullet and over that distance the bullet may face wind from different directions. Target shooters use wind flags between themselves and the target to give them some information on shifting winds so they can compensate but snipers have no such luxury.

Also military snipers don't use particularly high power scopes, usually something like a 10x Leupold M4. Look at a person from the distance of a football field with the naked eye and that's what you'll see in a scope at 1,000 yards.

[smiling bandit]

Golgo 13 isn't very far out of the realm of imagination, though.

[bernse]

Originally posted by Padeye
The OP asked about moving targets and that's in thre realm of pure fantasy at that range.

From the above link:
The Canadian .50-calibre rounds have a maximum range of between 2,200 and 2,300 metres. The U.S. rounds, they discovered, "fly farther, faster," said Cpl. "Bill", a 26-year-old native of Fogo Island, Nfld. The two-man Canadian team, coupled with American Sgt. Zevon Durham of Greenville, S.C., made the kill from 2,430 metres on the second shot. The first blew a bag from the hand of their target, an al-Qaida fighter walking on a road.

"He didn't even flinch," said Bill, who spoke to The Canadian Press on condition that his real name not be used.

"We made a correction and the next round hit exactly where we wanted it to. Well, a bit to the right."

The kill, one of more than 20 unofficially accredited to Canadian snipers during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley, beat the 35-year-old record of 2,500 yards, or 2,250 metres, set by U.S. Marine Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock in Duc Pho, South Vietnam.
The target was moving, albeit walking at 2500 yards. I think there was another report where a Canadian sniper took out a driver of a truck at about 2000 yards.

[bernse]

Err, make that:

albeit walking at over 2500 yards

[Crafter_Man]

Originally posted by Rhum Runner
I suspect you could extend the range out to 1500 yards at least, even without going to the .50 cal. When Hathcock made his record shot he was (IIRC from reading the book about him some years ago) firing from a hilltop firebase, not crawling around in the jungle.
Two things:

1. While a (successful) 1500 yard shot w/ .30 cal might be possible, no one can pull it off consistently.

2. While I have the utmost respect for him, as he was probably the finest sniper ever to live, even Mr. Hathcock could not do magic. I believe he even admitted his 2,500 yard shot had a considerable component of “luck” to it.

[Padeye]

A favorite of gun lore is the amazing shot. Any fool can make a lucky shot but a good shooter almost never makes a bad shot. Don't judge what can be done predicably and repeatedly buy a few exceptional examples.

[Cervaise]

quoted by bernse
The two-man Canadian team, coupled with American Sgt. Zevon Durham of Greenville, S.C., made the kill from 2,430 metres on the second shot.What's the time delay between the arrival of the bullet and the audible gunshot at a kill of this distance? Somebody standing next to the target hears the THUCK of the round hitting the guy's chest, and then how long before he hears the echoing crack of the sniper's rifle?

[Uncommon Sense]

2,430 / 331 = 7.3 seconds. Minus the time it took the bullet to get there. Adjust for altitude and air temp of course.

How do these people accurately measure the distance of these shots? Especially the ones that are not in a controlled type of environment (ranges or courses).

[Rhum Runner]

Originally posted by Crafter_Man
Two things:

1. While a (successful) 1500 yard shot w/ .30 cal might be possible, no one can pull it off consistently.

A feild sniper, shooting on estimated ranges, from an improvised rest is one thing, a planned "hit" where you know exactly how far you have to shoot, and can work from a prepared position might be something else entirely. Not saying that 1500yds is easy, and maybe it is too generous, but I think the change in circumstances is worth pointing out.

[UncleBill]

Originally posted by Crafter_Man
The Army says 800 yards is the practical limit for 7.62 x 51; the Marines say 1000 yards. At any rate, 95% of shooters have an extremely tough time beyond 300 yards. Only a handful of people can shoot 7.62 x 51 at 800 yards and beyond. The Marine Corps KD (Known Distance) Rifle Qualification Cource includes (included?) 10 shots slow fire with the M16A1 or M16A2 from 500 yards in the prone position at a man-sized target. I personally used the M16A2, and out of probably four seperate weeks at the range qualifying (prequal and qual day, 10 shots each day, 80 total shots from 500), I missed the black maybe four times. Even if I missed five time, that is a 90% hit rate. I was good, but not great. I can guarantee that it is not 95% of Marines who have trouble beyond 300 yards while prone. For those keeping track, the M16 is 5.56mm, Crafter_Man is talking about a 7.62mm rifle.

[UncleBill]

Of course, I meant five misses is 94%.

Spotters are part of a sniper team, and they carry laser range finders these days (I watched Discovery Channel this week). Before that they trained their asses off in estimating range, using maps and visual tools.

[Crafter_Man]

Originally posted by Rhum Runner
A feild sniper, shooting on estimated ranges, from an improvised rest is one thing, a planned "hit" where you know exactly how far you have to shoot, and can work from a prepared position might be something else entirely. Not saying that 1500yds is easy, and maybe it is too generous, but I think the change in circumstances is worth pointing out.
I may have been unclear, so let me rephrase it: While the bullet can easily go 1500 yards, no one can reliably and consistently hit the torso of a man at 1500 yards using a 7.62 x 51 cartridge under “real world” conditions. “Real world” means shooting a sniper-grade rifle in the field. It does not mean using a bench-rest rifle on a bench (and with indicator flags at every 100 yards). Even with bench-rest equipment and flags it is still extremely difficult…

[Crafter_Man]

Originally posted by UncleBill
I can guarantee that it is not 95% of Marines who have trouble beyond 300 yards while prone.
Agree! I was talking about the run-of-the-mill civilian shooters you see at your neighborhood shooting range. I should have been clearer. Sorry.

[UncleBill]

Yeah, I'll buy that one, no questions asked. I was at 7 yards Sunday at a pistol range, and I would have felt pretty safe at 15 yards with some of the guys in other lanes. Non Shooting F***s.

[handy]

The Stinger anti-aircraft portable man-fired missile has a range of 1 to 8 kilometers & a ceiling of 10,000 feet.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.htm

[UncleBill]

What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

And that is the PUBLICLY REPORTED range and ceiling. Kills have been made at higher altitude in Afghanistan in the mid-80's.

[MikeRochenelle]

If you want to get an idea of how hard it is to estimate distances and shoot accurately at long range, check out this no-frills but amazingly realistic Shockwave Flash long range shooting game:

http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemo.html

I put up a (somewhat longer than I like) tutorial here:

http://www.kaosol.net/~mackys/irreg/content/2003-03/SniperGame.html

The person who made this sim is on the SDMB, btw.


-Ben

[handy]

I thought were were talking about snipers, UB. Why not also talk about airplane snipers? Of course, they aren't your average sniper.

Note that the OP said:
"consistently hit a target? Moving or otherwise?"

A plane would qualify. I hear that missle has an accurency of about 60%, would you consider that 'consistently'?

[Q.E.D.]

Out of curiosity, what's the absolute farthest a bullet can travel, assuming zero wind? Assume a rifle fired upwards at a 45o angle and whatever gun/bullet/cartridge combination that would yield the greatest range.

[bernse]

Originally posted by handy
I thought were were talking about snipers, UB. Why not also talk about airplane snipers? Of course, they aren't your average sniper.

Note that the OP said:
"consistently hit a target? Moving or otherwise?"

A plane would qualify. I hear that missle has an accurency of about 60%, would you consider that 'consistently'?

Handy, what are you talking about? What does a guy with a guided missle taking out aircraft have to do with a sniper armed with a rifle? :confused:

[The_Stranger]

This would be a good time for an "ask the Sniper" thread. (Which I will NOT do)

I am a former USMC Sniper (MOS 8541).
I returned to civilian status in 1996, so my knowledge is somewhat dated.

There are many threads at SDMB discussing all aspects of ballistics, so I won’t re-hash that subject. From my personal experience with the M40-A1 USMC Sniper rifle I can tell you that consistent shots at 1000yd stationary targets are “do-able”, and in fact, shots at this range are part of the Sniper Training curriculum.

Moving targets at 1000yds are, obviously, much more difficult. However, if your target is moving at a constant rate of speed the hit probability goes way up.

The scope on the M40-A1 is a Unertl 10x with Mil-Dots. This scope was designed specifically for the USMC. The Mil-Dots allow you to do some accurate mathematical calculations in regards to your target. (Think “leading edge of target”)

The current USMC Sniper rifle is the M40-A3 (http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/m40a3.html) I got out before this rifle reached the fleet.


Stranger OUT


Cool links for those interested:

http://www.5th-marine-snipers.com/
http://www.snipersparadise.com/
http://www.snipercountry.com/
http://www.specialoperations.com/USMC/default.html

[handy]

"What does a guy with a guided missle taking out aircraft have to do with a sniper armed with a rifle?"

Hmm, don't ask, don't tell? :-)

[UncleBill]

The_Stranger, nice to have you aboard! I have heard that the Marines at Sniper School build (or finish) their rifles and carry them through their career. How far has the truth been stretched on this sea story?

And can you define what a "consistent" group is at 1000 yds?

handy, that was funny!

[radar ralf]

Placing three shots on a 10" circle at 1000 meters within 90 seconds is a very "do-able" feat. Using the Barrett M82A1M, a trained operator can do this all day long or until his teeth rattle out, whichever comes first. The cost of such a tool is rather prohibitive (over US$7000, IIRC), but if one has the means to enjoy the rather rarified air of truly high-power rifle shooting, the challenge of hitting a target at over a half-mile can become a consuming pastime.

[Turbo Dog]

Sniping is as much science as it is art. For a trained/experienced long distance shooter, a moving target at 1000 M is not a big problem. For a guy off the street, a stationary target at that distance will be a huge problem. With a brief amount of training, 500 yard kill shots are actually easy. Like UncleBill[b], I got to USMC boot camp and had to shoot at a man sized target at 500 yards and didn't think I could do it. Growing up in MN, a long hunting shot was 100 yards. But with little knowledge of wind effects and with a caliber I knew nothing about (5.56) I managed to get 6 hits out of 10 shots, as did many. But beyond 500 yards, it gets a lot more complicated.

A moron cannot shoot long distance. As [b]The_Stranger will be able to tell you, the formulas involved in distance shooting are anything but simple. Temperature, humidity, wind speed, wind direction, vertical angle, target speed and direction (if moving) are the main factors that have to be taken into account. And with ballistics, nothing is linear. The difference in bullet drop for a .308 from 900 yards to 1000 yards is about 8 feet. A SWAG at distance isn't going to cut it. I'm not big into competitive shooting, but have done it a few times. The X-ring on the 1000 yard target is 10 inches. It is not uncommon for people to hit 9 out of 10 shots in the ring. And that is with a non-customized rifle. Match shooters, the guys who use custom built rifles, can get into sudden death matches where the winner is determined by 1/4 inch after many shots.

A trained/experienced shooter can consistently hit targets at 1 click, even moving. An understanding of ballistics, and being able to determine range and the environmental factors at the time are secrets to long distance shooting. Trained, it's not only possible but routine. For the guy who has never shot a rifle, anything beyond a few hundred yards, forget it.

[Turbo Dog]

So I blew the bold coding. Don't gimme any crap!

[The_Stranger]

Thanks for the welcome UncleBill, I've been here a long time, but could never bring myself to make one of those "Hi my name is..." posts.

Sniper rifles for the USMC are built by USMC gunsmiths in Quantico, VA. (http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/m40a3.html)

In regards to Snipers carrying the same weapon throughout their career...no.
As long as you remained in the same unit you carried the same rifle, checked out from the battalion armory.
If you were re-assigned to another unit, you picked up another weapon from the new unit's armory.

"consistent groups" as we used the term, referred to a weapon/shooter being able to hold Minute of Angle groups (MOA) at all yard lines.

MOA at a 100 yds is one inch.
MOA at a 1000yds is ten inches.
Three shots from 100yds inside a one inch area is a consistent group.
Three shots from 1000yds inside a ten inch area is a consistent group.

Being able to duplicate this feat time and time again is holding consistent groups.

[Ranchoth]

Originally posted by whuckfistle
2,430 / 331 = 7.3 seconds. Minus the time it took the bullet to get there. Adjust for altitude and air temp of course.



Wouldn't the passage of the bullet itself make an audible *crack*? Assuming it's going supersonic.

BTW, does the OP have any specific details on a situation where Golgo 13 made a such a 1k+ hit? With the combined powers of ballistics experts obsessed fanboys, we here could probably do a good analysis of the "realism" of the setup.

[jovan]

BTW, does the OP have any specific details on a situation where Golgo 13 made a such a 1k+ hit? With the combined powers of ballistics experts obsessed fanboys, we here could probably do a good analysis of the "realism" of the setup.

Well, there are well over one hundred Golgo 13 books, each containing several stories. In pretty much each one of them G13 whacks someone from a great distance and/or under difficult situations. It's a cartoon after all, though on the more realistic side of the genre.

One story I've read recently finished with the man himself blowing the brains out of an arms dealer. Judging from the drawings, I'll conservatively estimate his distance at, say, 600 yards. The target was sitting on the back seat of a car driving on the highway. At night. Having read your (as usual) enlightened responses, I very much doubt someone could pull a hit like that in real life. As I wrote in the op, 1k shots are easy for him. It seemed a lot, but reading the thread, it's not nearly as unrealistic as I thought it was - that is, for someone who has the reputation of being "the bes in the world." By a long shot. (Pun intended.)

The problem with the realism of Golgo 13 is that, as a hit man, his "trademark" is a bullet between the eyes. I've read episodes where he made exception to his rule, but he seems to go for the head most of the time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that real snipers aim for the torso, as it's a larger target. Going for the head would be somewhat "unprofessional".

[The_Stranger]

Real Snipers aim for the best target presented.

There are so many variables possible in every scenario...
i.e., is it a hostage situation? if so, where is the hostage located?
is the target wearing body armor? and so on....

Shot placement will vary accordingly.

[handy]

"The longest shot ever recorded in South Viet Nam was in 1967.

The weapon was the Remington Model 700 w/Redfield 3x9 scope
The distance was 1900 meters, distance and KIA was confirmed by a Marine 1st Lieutenant 1/5"
http://www.5th-marine-snipers.com/Longest_shot.htm

BTW, I read 'sniper' comes from the word 'snipe' a kind of bird tricky to catch.

[RickJay]

I think it's been fairly well established the Canadian sniper in Afghanistan broke that record. Of course, he likely had the benefit of a laser rangefinder to assist in plugging his victim.