New Flash! Laci Peterson KilledBy satanists!

[ralph124c]

Well, we all knew that Scott Peterson is just a regular guy! Everybody goes fishing Christmas Eve! His goofy defense lawyer has just announced (based upon autopsy reports) that Laci was probably abducted and mutilated by SATANISTS!
So, don't assume your local witch coven/Satan worship group is all that innocent! They could be murdering pregnant women as we speak!
I KNEW Scott wasinnocent..he has such an honest face!
By the way, where can I attend a "black Mass"? I've always wanted to see what satanists did at these affairs!:D

[Trion]

OK. So, on the one hand you complain about the lawyer's claim that Laci Peterson was probably murdered by Satanists.

You're right. That's idiotic.

But on the other hand, you imply that Scott is guilty because, you know, he looks guilty.

Not exactly the most scientific proposition is it?

[Typo Negative]

Yeah, but going fishing alone on Christmas eve has got to be (even if true) the worst fucking alibi EVER.

That said, this will probably be a difficult case to prosecute.

[Boo]

actually, it would be a great time to go fishing...you'd be the only boat out there. Maybe Scott was an active christian...I haven't seen any stories saying he even went to church at all.

Maybe he is jewish? or maybe an atheist?

[Boo]

typo - meant "maybe scott wasn't an active christain."

[Summertime]

Originally posted by ralph124c

So, don't assume your local witch coven/Satan worship group is all that innocent!

um, they're not.
You think satanists have any morals or would consider it a sin to kill someone or some animal?

Of course, i doubt thats how Laci was killed, but I wanted to hi jack.

[Zebra]

Didn't the workers at the marina say they didn't remember Scott there?

I recall people saying that he obviously didn't go fishing but was home murdering Saint Laci and her unborn child.

Now with her body in the water he had to go 'fishing', right?

If he was the only person fishing then they would have remembered them. If it was soooooo unusual to go fishing on Christmas Eve why would the marina even be open?

Boo, if he isn't a Christian he should be declared a forien combatant and dragged off to an undisclosed location for some true justice.

[Trion]

Originally posted by spooje
Yeah, but going fishing alone on Christmas eve has got to be (even if true) the worst fucking alibi EVER.

Agreed.

My point is simply this. If you're gonna complain about someone else's idiotic reasoning, you might want to shy away from other reasoning that's also pretty idiotic. Like the ever popular "He looks guilty" excuse.

If were going to talk about this, can we please stick to the facts?

[Monty]

I'm still waiting to find out what ol' SP's answer was to the obvious question:

[list] Detective: So, Mr. Peterson; where were you on December 24?
Peterson: Heck, copper; I was at the marina where I go fishing all the time.
Detective: Can you prove that?
Peterson: Of course. Here's the receipt for the parking lot.
Detective: Cool! Got any of the other receipts?[/quote]

[Zebra]

Other receipts for what?

Bait? Maybe he doesn't use live bait.

Beer? Maybe he brought some from home.


I dunno is there anything else you need for fishing?

[wring]

I believe, Zebra, Monty is suggesting that they should have asked if he had his reciepts for all the other times he went fishing or did he only think to keep this one.

IIRC, the boat was new, I also don't know if this conversation that Monty relates actually happened, or if so, when (so for example, if it happened the same time he had reported her missing, it'd not be unusual at all to still have the reciept from that same day/day before)

[stolichnaya]

Or maybe he's a receipt-keeper. My ex-roommate would be buried in them, huge boxes stacked one upon the other.

I would love to be on the jury for this trial, strictly out of prurient interest. It will be fascinating.

Do Satanists really exist? Have they ever, beyond the "disaffected teen" demographic? I've always heard rumors but it seems strange that I never meet a satanist, or meet someone who knows one. Satanist is very different from Pagan, right?

[Summertime]

I've known 2, personally.

[Lamia]

I don't believe there has ever been any proven case of a murder traced back to Satanists. Most crime linked to Satanic organizations tends to be of the inverted-pentacle-spray-painted-on-someone-else's-wall variety.

[Boo]

the marina was closed (business office) but they had two people working the marina at the time. I guess it is always staffed they saw someone who looked like scott by himself and asked if he needed anything...he said no....

I beleive that came from a report I read on foxnews.com

[carrot]

Here you go, stolichnaya. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm)

[Ike Witt]

Originally posted by Summertime
um, they're not.
You think satanists have any morals or would consider it a sin to kill someone or some animal?


Are you telling us that religious folk, because of their morals, would never kill or harm any person or animal? Are you saying that anybody who isn't religious is able to kill without remorse?

[Esprix]

Well they are Satanists, and the stereotypical portrayal of them would be, um, people who worship Satan - and how angelic can you be when your god is known as the Lord of the Flies, Prince of Darkness, and Father of Lies?

Esprix

[Esprix]

Of course, now that I've read the ReligiousTolerance.org website, I'm seeing these would be, of course, inaccurate portrayals of genuine Satanists, who are basically pagans, not worshippers of the Christian version of the Devil.

But the myth persists in mainstream America - as I've just proven. :)

Esprix

[ralph124c]

I just realized that Peterson's lawyer is the same guy who defended (got off) Winona Ryder for shoplifting in Beverly Hills! I thought that defense was most creative! (Remember, she claimed to be doing research for an upcoming movie role, in which she would play a kleptomaniac.
This guyis good! I can't wait to see the farce(trial) begin!

[Liz]

You think satanists have any morals or would consider it a sin to kill someone or some animal?
:rolleyes:
Of course, now that I've read the ReligiousTolerance.org website, I'm seeing these would be, of course, inaccurate portrayals of genuine Satanists, who are basically pagans, not worshippers of the Christian version of the Devil.
Thank you kindly, Exsprix. I was hoping someone had beat me to it.

:)

[Liz]

Now maybe I could return the favor and spell your fricken' name right!

:smack:

That should read Esprix.

[wring]

ralph - Winnona was found guilty.

[Sat on Cookie]

Two things that have been bothering me:

1) Wouldn't it have made more sense for a married man having an affair to SAY he was going fishing on Christmas Eve and go see his girlfriend? Don't married affair people try to finagle all sorts of situations to see their lovers? Why would he waste such a great opportunity and actually go fishing?

2) Everyone has said that SP was a great guy, yet, it seems like he has acted like a complete jerk since this began. Which is it? Is he a jerk or is he a great guy? If he is a great guy, why is he acting like a jerk?

[Road Rash]

I have heard speculation that satanists kill 50000 babies each year, yet not a shred of credible evidence that even one has killed.

I have heard of many cases where somebody murdered another because God ordered them to. There's a lady down in Houston who killed 5 of her kids for that reason.

This is (obviously) not intended to imply that murder is justified by any higher authority, but to attempt to add a little logical irony to those (cough.. Summertime) who will eventually believe in crap if someone says it enough.

I too have known a couple of Satanists. They are far more likely to kill an elf with a 20 sided pair of dice than harm even the cutest of puppies.

[Sofa King]

Sat on Cookie is wondering:

1) Wouldn't it have made more sense for a married man having an affair to SAY he was going fishing on Christmas Eve and go see his girlfriend? Don't married affair people try to finagle all sorts of situations to see their lovers? Why would he waste such a great opportunity and actually go fishing?

Well, that particular night he was busy killing his wife.

[Sat on Cookie]

That's my point Sofa King! (Although I realize I was not very clear on what the heck my point was).

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Person who follows the Rede checking in. I'm an eclectic Pagan, but I stick mainly to Celtic Shamanistic pratices. I follow the Rede, which states "An It Harm None, Do As Ye Will". To translate, if it harms NONE/NOTHING I can do it. I have to consider what my actions will do, before I act. This does not mean I cannot defend myself or loved ones, just that I consider before I act. I have the right to survive, intact, and the right to defend myself against attacks.

Put another way, I follow the Golden Rule to the best of my abilities. Some days are better disciplined than others. I follow the laws of the land. If I see something that needs to be done, that I can do, I do it. If that means helping the little old lady down the street get her groceries out of the cab into her house, or helping the wailing little one who caught his pants leg in is bicycle chain, I do it.
Pagan Informational Site (http://www.witchvox.com)

Summertime I don't know exactly what these 2 "Satanists" you knew "personally" did, but my bet is, the were angst ridden youth looking for an excuse to commit crimes. I find your attitude, and assumptions exceedingly offensive.

I'll wager, that if you search the net, you will find a lot more murders commited in this century alone by Christians who said "God told me to do it" than you will find actual Satanists/Pagans who killed in the name of their Diety(s).

Son of Sam does not count for Satanists, because he was insane, and Christian. He was just putting the blame elsewhere. Neither does West Memphis 3, because from what I've read on that case, it will be overturned. West Memphis 3 (http://www.wm3.org/) They were convicted of this crime soley because they were different. The evidence in this case was ignored. Read the link, you may find you agree with me.

In short, don't point the "Giant Finger of Immorality" at others just because their religion differs from yours. You never know who you may be offending.

[Rilchiam]

Originally posted by ralph124c
Well, we all knew that Scott Peterson is just a regular guy! Everybody goes fishing Christmas Eve! His goofy defense lawyer has just announced (based upon autopsy reports) that Laci was probably abducted and mutilated by SATANISTS!

Link, please?

[Derleth]

Since when are Wiccans the same as Satanists? Do that many follow the teachings of LeVay and the Left-Hand Path? The Wiccan I knew would be rather offended if someone equated him with Satanists.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

I'd just like to chime in and say that Satanists are, well, evil. It's kind of in the job description. However, they are extremely unorganized, rare, and, more likely to fit Road Rash's description of roll playing geeks than some Rosemary's Baby Coven. I have known exactly two in my life, both obssessed with worshipping evil. One's life ambition was to be the whore of Babylon (give birth to the antichrist). I don't think she was right in the head.

Keep in mind that Satanists are not to be confused with Wiccans, though the term "witch" can confuse people. I have met many wiccans, and not a one of them worships evil or anything remotely close to it. They are just pagan and frequently polytheistic (sort of). Satanists aren't pagan or polytheistic. They believe in the christian mythology and dogma, they believe that Jesus was the son of God - they just want to play for the other team.



There is a really, really bad joke about what Scott Peterson used as bait when he went fishing, but I'm not going to make it.

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by Road Rash
I have heard speculation that satanists kill 50000 babies each year, yet not a shred of credible evidence that even one has killed.

Satanists killed me as a baby.







I got better.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

I think the defense attorney has chosen a ridiculous course to defend Scott Peterson. I don't believe "Satanists" killed Laci, and I resent the hatred, fear, and resentment that will be directed towards my religion because of it. (Many people fear Wicca/Druidism as being "evil".) He's being irresponsible, and could cause a panic. Already, people are using Wicca, and Satanism interchangeably, as demonstrated in this thread by Summertime. They don't even show they understand either religion all that well either. If they did, they would see that the accuasations are wild.

A Monkey With a Gun, it sounds to me like you have experienced people who claimed to be Satanists, but who weren't. They wanted to rebel against Christianity, and chose the moniker "Satanist" to do so. This does not mean they actually follow the Creed of the Church of Satan. It might be, that people like you knew, who claimed the moniker "Satanist" did this thing, but it's highly doubtful. I think the defense attorney is grasping straws, and trying to divert attention to the facts.

I'm curious, and I ask questions, or study. Let me offer the following insight:

From what I understand of that religious path, Satanists do not worship Satan at all. People who are Satanist, don't necessarily worship evil. They are Satanist because they are interested in "looking out for number 1", otherwise known as "Enlightened Self Interest". They do nice things, but it's with the idea of promoting their own interests. They are soley interested in self promotion. That is, if doing something will "get them off," and promote their life goals, they do it. If that means having a wife and family, then that is what they do, if that is being president of a powerful coporation, that is what they do. They are only interested in promoting what they want in life, that is all.

This does not mean you should not be very wary when dealing with them. In general, they will follow the law, because they aren't fools, and don't want to go to jail. (Self interest.) However, if they can bend or break the rules without getting caught or causing repurcussions, they will. Also, they will step on you to get a rung higher, from what I have observed.

Granted, there are some who follow this path, who do not look far enough ahead before they act, and they break laws and end up in jail due to unchecked impulses. Generally, Satanists are intelligent people though, and do not get in trouble at all. (Lawyers, Doctors, Scientists etc.)

I have spoken with someone who went a little ways down that path, then turned aside later on. (They are Wiccan now.) They found it was a hollow existence after a while. I asked this person questions about their religion, to understand why they got into it in the first place. They told me about it.

It's a more subtle evil than most imagine. It's almost innoucous, you wouldn't realize that they were Satanist if you knew them, because they still do good deeds, and may even be a "pillar of the community". Thing is, all they really care about deep down, all their deeds, all their effort, is for their own interests. It's not that they are inherently evil, it's that their motives are warped. Thus their deeds, can be evil/amoral.

As for people thinking that "If you are Pagan, you are also Satanist". I say, go read up on the subject, then come back and apologize.

You all do realize, that according to the strict dictionary definition, if a person is not a member of the "big 3" (Muslim, Judeaism, Christianity) then they are technically considered Pagan, right? That leaves Hindu, Buddhist, Native American branches, Wicca and many other religions under the label "Pagan". There are some who even consider that Atheism, and Agnosticism are pagan. I personally don't though.

[Cerri]

Thanks to the people who beat me to the thread in separating pagans/witches/Wiccans from Satanists. Satan is a Christian belief, pagans doesn't believe in Christianity (though there are some branches of paganism that do, which just goes to show you can't paint ALL pagans with the same broad brush), therefore, most of us don't believe in Satan. He's your devil, you can have him, thanks.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Originally posted by Zabali_Clawbane
A Monkey With a Gun, it sounds to me like you have experienced people who claimed to be Satanists, but who weren't. They wanted to rebel against Christianity, and chose the moniker "Satanist" to do so.
That's pretty much what I thought when I met them both. Our next Whore of Babylon was a strange kitten. I'm not sure even she knew what she believed. The other guy, well, I think he just read too many Ann Rice novels. (note= goths aren't necessarilly Satanists, but it is that "dark power" style that they both like.)
Originally posted by Zabali_Clawbane
You all do realize, that according to the strict dictionary definition, if a person is not a member of the "big 3" (Muslim, Judeaism, Christianity) then they are technically considered Pagan, right? That leaves Hindu, Buddhist, Native American branches, Wicca and many other religions under the label "Pagan". Yep, and that's the way I "pagan". I never mean it in a denigrating way, just descriptive. In every day vernacular, it usually reffers to Wicans, but anyone who isn't GodtheFather monotheistic, yet still believes in some higher power, would be "pagan".

Odd highjack thought: Are Zorastrians pagan? I honestly don't know. There are so few left I've never thought about it till now.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

That's the way I use the term pagan. Sheesh.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Apologies of a sort are in order to Summertime. You merely put a qoute in your response that used "Witch" and "Satanist" interchangeably. My issue, then is with all the others in this thread who have used the terms interchangeably, and have assumed things about both religions that aren't necessarily true.

Go to the link in my first post in this thread, and read up on what Paganism really is. Then follow the link carrot put up, it will give you insight into the Satanism.

Knoweledge banishes fear. Fear often exists because of ignorance. Banish this from yourselves, and you will know serenity. Put another way, learning new things, is a good way to stop being afraid of the unknown.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

I'm not certain. I think maybe Zorastrians are considered Pagan, because of their religious practices. Hmmm, I've got a bit of studying to do. Thanks for giving me something to find out, A Monkey With a Gun. :D

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Hmmm, from this link (http://www.w-z-o.org/)WHAT made Zoroaster's ideas radical was firstly his revelation that there was one creator, Ahura Mazda, the Wise Lord, at a time when it was commonplace to worship the numerous natural elements as gods in their own right.

His understanding of life was based on his realisation that all the manifestations of creation had to come ultimately from one all-powerful energy - God or the Self-Creator. His originality is further seen in his injunction found in the Gathas, that those who are listening should use their free will to choose their own path, that of good or that of evil.

In this injunction are two fundamental ideas: free will and individual responsibility for one's own actions; and the concepts of good and evil. Good and evil are understood as realities encountered in the inner mind - the conscience - that appear to operate as twin energies, equally present and both exerting a pull over us.

Zoroaster's message is basically that we should be aware of the struggle these two forces engage us in and know the consequences of following one rather than the other.
Hmmm, I don't know whether that is "pagan" or not. It doesn't stem directly from Judaism, but it is also not all that different from the Big Three.

Ralph, sorry for the highjack, but this is what I love about this board. Any thread can turn into some odd philosophical or scientific discussion.

[Derleth]

I think Zoroaster's teachings are credited with influencing the pre-Judaic Hebrew tribes in their religious quest during their time in the Wilderness.

[pepperlandgirl]

From what I understand of that religious path, Satanists do not worship Satan at all. People who are Satanist, don't necessarily worship evil. They are Satanist because they are interested in "looking out for number 1", otherwise known as "Enlightened Self Interest".

Oooh, ooh, ooh! I know this one!
Personal Ethical Egoism.

[ratty]

Satanists killed Laci Peterson?

Holy shit! Did we just time-warp back to 1986? :dubious:

I'm not going to bother jumping into the fray, since others have done much better at fighting ignorance than I could. (And more politely, I may add.) If you're really all that interested in learning more about the "satanic panic", I suggest picking up the excellent, informative, and well-written book The Lure of the Sinister by Gareth J. Medway. Nothing quite like a healthy dose of common sense and good research skills to squash those alluring urban legends.

[lezlers]

Wow, I'm so glad more eloquent and calm people beat me to my "oh, man they used witch and satanist interchangably!!"

#1. Wiccans don't believe in hell. Therefore, we don't believe in Satan. Therefore, it is impossible for a witch to be a satanist. That would be why everytime I see the phrase "satanic witch" I want to scream. It does the religion an enormous disservice. (I was at a Barnes and Noble one time actually and saw the Satanic Bible- the author or something refered to themselves as a "Satanic Witch" all I could do was stare for a good 5 minutes, I was so upset)

#2. Please please please, before making such uninformed statements such as the OP's "Witch Coven/Satan Worship Group" reference (the equivelant of saying "Jewish Christmas") think about who you're going to offend.

Zabali_Clawbane, thanks for doing a great job fighting ignorance.

[Dewey Cheatem Undhow]

See, this is the sort of thing that pisses me off. It's really stupid to call yourself a "Satanist" and they say "but really, we're not evil, we don't literally worship the devil, and we're really just committed to a radical form of individualism and naturism, etc, etc, etc."

Goddammit, if you're not evil, don't name your sect after an evil supernatural being. Pick something descriptive that won't confuse the rest of the world.

[Daoloth]

Originally posted by Summertime

You think satanists have any morals or would consider it a sin to kill someone or some animal?


First off, Satanists (LaVeyan) don't believe in sin. Furthermore, they are against harming animals and children, by and large. They don't do any ritualistic sacrifices or Hollywood mumbo-jumbo either.

I know a Satanist in the USMC Reserve and Miami PD. He's a respectable guy, and he wouldn't harm a child or animal or anything of that nature. While he strives to protect the people of America, his bretheren are going to be blamed for a gruesome and senseless murder. It's sad.

[Lucki Chaarms]

Well, I think Anton LaVey's version of Satanism (he founded the Church of Satan here in America, IIRC) is more like spiritual objectivism. They believe in basically the opposite of what Jesus stood for: trample anyone who gets in your way, lie, steal, manipulate, do whatever it takes to get that earthly power and money, and they also say that in doing so you will gain supernatural power as well.

So they may not believe in a being named Satan as Christianity does, but they do believe themselves to be the complete opposite of Christianity. Therefore, it makes sense that they would choose to align themselves with that hypothetical being, effectively declaring themselves to be Christianity's enemy.

BTW, I think Anton LaVey was a total tool.

LC

[Mama Tiger]

The only Satanist I knew was back in college days, when he worked at the radio station with a friend of mine.

The most memorably evil act he ever committed that anyone could discover was that when the record (remember vinyl platters?) of the Doobie Brothers' "Jesus Is Just All Right with Me" came into the station, he took one look at the title, screamed, and broke the record in half.

Took 'em two weeks to get another copy and join the rest of the country in playing the song twice an hour.

Not exactly a threat to world peace in my book.....

[RobbieFal]

the worst defense they can put up is "God killed her, so Scott is innocent. If it wasn't for God, then she'd be alive, but now she is with him. Glory be."

[Lilairen]

I believe Zoroastrianism is listed as the fourth Religion of the Book; I'd be somewhat disinclined to consider it pagan on that basis.

lezlers, please keep in mind that "witch" and "Wiccan" are not synonyms either. Witchcraft is nondenominational and not owned by the Craft; while it is probably most common in Wiccan, it can be practiced by people of any faith.

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by ralph124c
Well, we all knew that Scott Peterson is just a regular guy! Everybody goes fishing Christmas Eve! His goofy defense lawyer has just announced (based upon autopsy reports) that Laci was probably abducted and mutilated by SATANISTS!
So, don't assume your local witch coven/Satan worship group is all that innocent! They could be murdering pregnant women as we speak!
I KNEW Scott wasinnocent..he has such an honest face!
By the way, where can I attend a "black Mass"? I've always wanted to see what satanists did at these affairs!:D

Were they baby eating satanists?

:rolleyes:

[Liz]

I think a few folks need to head over to Church of Satan dot com (http://www.churchofsatan.com) and educate themselves. This bullshit is getting ridiculous.

I'd go through and debunk all of the myths/lies/misrepresentations here, but I don't have the time at the moment. Please, take a look at the webpage and doctrines and familiarize yourself with what's what. I'm not personally a Satanist, but it's so totally different than what I'm reading here that it's laughable. I wouldn't dare attempt to explain Judaism or Hinduism or *any* religion without the facts. That's just offensive and ignorant.

[lezlers]

Originally posted by Lilairen


lezlers, please keep in mind that "witch" and "Wiccan" are not synonyms either. Witchcraft is nondenominational and not owned by the Craft; while it is probably most common in Wiccan, it can be practiced by people of any faith.

Agreed. I stand corrected. It just pisses me off when people put Witch and Satanist together because most people aren't aware of all of the little differences that exist in the pagan sphere. Most people lump witch with wiccan and pagan and so on and so on that when trying to explain to an outsider, it's easier to keep it as simple as possible. When you start splitting hairs in your explanation, I've found people begin to get confused and thus, lose interest which leads them to continue lumping things on opposite ends of the spectrum together as one.

[Larry Mudd]

Defense sources say that the satanic sacrifice is still only a working theory. They may never raise the possibility in court. But they point out to skeptics that there are several documented satanic cults operating in the Modesto area, Abrams reported. Abrams admitted some would hear the latest defense claims and say, "Come on, give me a break." Link (http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/2208903/detail.html)

Stuff like this makes me feel like someone put something in my Ovaltine.

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally posted by ralph124c

By the way, where can I attend a "black Mass"? I've always wanted to see what satanists did at these affairs!:D

The Dark and Scary Infernal Chaos Magick Order of the
Godless Nietzchean Superman of the Left-Hand Path of
Aleister Crowley is now accepting applications for
membership.

While it's highly unlikely that a namby-pamby wimp
like most of you Dopers seem to be might actually
have the testicles to get accepted by our highly
demanding and exclusive Order, we are nevertheless
desperate for dues so that our High Lord and Master
Seth Dark Star Luciferus Terriblus can keep himself
stocked up on Bacardi, cocaine, scary-looking black
robes and gold swastika jewelry. We might therefore
consider your application IF you measure up to our
tough standards and have lots of cash to spend
supporting our Temple. Being a hot-looking babe with
big breasts would help a lot too.

We are very dangerous people who know all kinds of
powerful magick and can squash our enemies like bugs,
and we'll thank you not to laugh at our "Tales from
the Crypt" comic book collections and our Darth Vader
bedsheets. Our doctrines and magickal practices are
derived from careful study of the works of Aleister
Crowley as well as Frederick Nietzche notwithstanding
the fact that we can't spell or pronounce his name.
(Like, is it a "z" or an "s'? And does the "i" come
before the "e", or what?) OUR HIGH LORD AND MASTER'S
DOCTRINES ARE IN NO WAY DERIVED FROM STAR WARS,
DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS OR SCIENTOLOGY!!! THAT WAS A
DAMNED LIE FROM A JACK CHICK TRACT AND ANYWAY WE
SETTLED THOSE LAWSUITS OUT OF COURT!!! We also
practice sex magick or at least we would if we could
get any babes to join our Order but apparently the
chicks aren't terribly impressed with a black magick
cult when half its membership are still living at home
with their parents and at age thirty still haven't
touched a breast. Our only law is "Do What Thou Wilt"
which is our highest guiding principle except that
most of us can't seem to find chicks who will let us
do as we wilt with them, and anyway our High Lord and
Master would probably hog them all for himself even though his
booze and coke habit has shriveled up his Mighty
Rod of Power like a raisin so that even a gallon jug
of Viagra couldn't get a rise out of him. (We know.
The hooker we hired for our High Lord and Master at
our last Most High and Terrible Eldritch Rite of the
Full Moon and Used Comic Book Sale told us so.) So if
you're a hot babe with big breasts we'll probably
suspend the dues for you.

Anyway, we really are very dangerous people 'cuz like
we said we practice all these kinds of magick that
have the word "chaos" in their names and we like
actually own some books by Aleister Crowley and don't
try to sell us any of those bogus editions of the
Necronomicon because we have them all already and
we've just learned that there really wasn't any
Necronomicon. Life is only for those strong and
ruthless enough to seize the day which is something we
learned while getting beat up in high school so much,
and you had better be afraid of us if you know what's
good for you, Jack!

You might be suitable for our dark and terrible Order
if you can answer "yes" to most of the following
questions:

Do you listen to a lot of heavy metal?

Are you secure in your spiritual power? Are you
absolutely fearless and ruthless and aren't scared of
anything, not even scowling black teenagers dressed up
like "gangstuhs?"

Are you certain of the god-like potential within
yourself even though the best job you can get is
evening shift at the video store?

Do you read a lot of Crowley and Nietzche? Can you
spell and pronounce "Nietzche" correctly? If you can,
can you teach us?

Do you think it's a good idea to mix Bacardi and
cocaine? (No, really, do you? Our High Lord and Master
has gotten awful skinny and pale and his hands tremble
a lot and when he talks he doesn't make much sense any
more and we're getting horribly worried about his
health.)

Do you think Christianity is contemptible beyond
words? Do you look down on the meek, ignorant Christan
masses, patiently awaiting the day when Lord Cthulhu
will rise from the depths of R'Leyh and bring horror
and torment to the football players who gave you
wedgies in the locker room in high school?

Are you a hot babe with big breasts?

If you're a hot babe with big breasts, would you find
a thirty-year-old guy with long hair and a scraggly
beard who clerks in a video store, lives with his
parents and hasn't ever touched a breast sexy? (If you
answer yes to the last two questions you don't need to
bother with the other ones. You're in! )

You will need to answer "no" to the following two
questions:

Are you Jewish? Our High Lord and Master has a problem
with that.

Are you a scowling black teenager who dresses like a
"gangstuh?" The rest of the membership has a problem
with that.

So like we said, we're accepting applications 'cuz we
need the dues and maybe some babes, but you have to
meet our really, really tough standards first 'cuz
we're such an exclusive order and don't accept any
wimps. Applications will be accepted in person only.
Also, our High Lord and Master has raised the
application fee again and now insists on cash only in
small unmarked bills. Also cocaine if you've got any.

[lezlers]

Wow, Lonsompolecat, way to stereotype, insult, degrade and mock a relgion you obviously know nothing about.

I'm Wiccan, not Satanic and do not agree with the Satanic religion on any level, but your post is IMHO completely inappropriate, ignorant and spiteful. Would you post something similar mocking the Christian faith? How about Judeism? Paganism? Probably not, because you'd get your ass handed to you. Have a little respect for others religions, if you agree with them or not.

[Diane]

I don't believe there has ever been any proven case of a murder traced back to Satanists. Most crime linked to Satanic organizations tends to be of the inverted-pentacle-spray-painted-on-someone-else's-wall variety.

I have only read part of the thread yet so someone may have already mentioned them. Right off the bat, I can think of two.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/constanzo/1.html

http://www.meta-religion.com/New_religious_groups/Killer_issues/san_luis_obispo_satanist.htm

Neither does West Memphis 3, because from what I've read on that case, it will be overturned. West Memphis 3 They were convicted of this crime soley because they were different. The evidence in this case was ignored. Read the link, you may find you agree with me.

It may or may not be overturned. There are still MANY hurdles facing the boys.

If I may be so bold as to add a plug.

My daughter and I have been very active the last few years in support of having the verdicts overturned. I suggest that everyone here read that site, top to bottom) and if you are so inclined, please follow the instruction on how to write to different organizations (news, congress, etc.) as well as additional financial (they now take PayPal) and moral support of the WM3.

www.wm3.org

You should also watch the videos "Paradise Lost" and "Paradise Lost II: Revelations". Hopefully they will outrage you into action and support the release of Damien, Jessie, and Jason.

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally posted by lezlers
Wow, Lonsompolecat, way to stereotype, insult, degrade and mock a relgion you obviously know nothing about.

I'm Wiccan, not Satanic and do not agree with the Satanic religion on any level, but your post is IMHO completely inappropriate, ignorant and spiteful. Would you post something similar mocking the Christian faith? How about Judeism? Paganism? Probably not, because you'd get your ass handed to you. Have a little respect for others religions, if you agree with them or not.

Oh, please. I've met people in real life who were just about that pathetic. If you've had even marginal participation in the neo-Pagan movement, you've met some too. And the silliest of 'em all were the dopes who claimed to be following some kind of "left-hand path." If ever a religion deserved to be mocked, Satanism is the one, although admittedly fluffy bunny Pagans are almost as bad. It's one thing to ask me to respect someone whose religious beliefs are carefully thought out and have some actual depth, and another thing altogether to tell me I must pretend to respect some meatball who's just acting out an adolescent fantasy he's concocted from comic books, horror films and Ayn Rand novels. Both the leaders and the followers of hare-brained cults like LaVey's Church of Satan deserve a pie in the face and a shot from the seltzer bottle.

And for your information, I have on a number of occasions mocked Christianity, in addition to Scientology, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the followers of the Guru Maharaji Ji, the Mormons and quite a number of Pagans as well as others. The lunatic credulity of so many religious believers makes religion in general a ripe target for mockery which I often find impossible to resist.

[lezlers]

Originally posted by LonesomePolecat

And for your information, I have on a number of occasions mocked Christianity, in addition to Scientology, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the followers of the Guru Maharaji Ji, the Mormons and quite a number of Pagans as well as others. The lunatic credulity of so many religious believers makes religion in general a ripe target for mockery which I often find impossible to resist.

Oh. Well okay then. I guess if you've mocked that many of them then that makes it okay.

Honestly, do you get off on being such an asshole? And do you have any religious beliefs? Or are you one of those who prefer to just insult everyone who's different from you? You're just a picture of tolerance and intelligence aren't you? :wally

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Obviously he's an elitist atheist. You know the type, "Ho-hum, all of you people are sooo boring with this religion crap. I'm sooo much smarter than all of you, because I alone know the TRUTH!" :rolleyes:

Doesn't feel too good when someone else turns your own razor wit back on you, does it LonesomePolecat?

An apt name, if ever I saw one. Skunk, indeed a fitting name for you. :dubious:

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally posted by lezlers


Honestly, do you get off on being such an asshole?

I guess it rubbed off on me from constantly having to deal with sanctimonious assholes like you. If you're really this thin-skinned, maybe you should just stay the hell out of the Pit. When I posted this thing on other message boards some months ago, it got a lot of laughs, most from Pagans who, unlike you, have a sense of humor and aren't self-righteous politically correct butt munches who take themselves much, much too seriously.

King of the Hill is on, and Bobby Hill has joined a coven. It's hilarious. I should probably sue them for plagiarism.

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally posted by Zabali_Clawbane
Obviously he's an elitist atheist. You know the type, "Ho-hum, all of you people are sooo boring with this religion crap. I'm sooo much smarter than all of you, because I alone know the TRUTH!" :rolleyes:

Doesn't feel too good when someone else turns your own razor wit back on you, does it LonesomePolecat?

An apt name, if ever I saw one. Skunk, indeed a fitting name for you. :dubious:

Elitist atheist? Not even close. I've had quite a few chuckles at the expense of the Madalyn Murray types too. And if elitism offends you, you ought to laugh at the "left hand path" types just as loudly as I do.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Or maybe LonesomePolecat, it's that you care not a whit about social boundaries, and manners. If someone finds what you have posted offensive, and calls you on it, a better recourse would have been to say "I'm sorry to have given offense."

Whether or not other pagans laughed at your little joke when you posted it previously doesn't matter now. Lezlers, and I were offended by it. It was "over the top". It went too far, and generalized too much.

I'm certain there will be others along shortly who will likely agree that it went to far. I'd guess the pagans that laughed at your post previously needed to feel better than Satanists that day, and so joined in.

I'm speaking up, because I don't like it when people lump everyone who's pagan together, and mocks them. I don't like that, and so when I see it done, no matter what the religion, I'm going to speak up.

I practice Shaminism with a Celtic flair FYI. I have Irish, Scottish, Welsh and Native American roots, so it fits.

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally posted by Zabali_Clawbane
Or maybe LonesomePolecat, it's that you care not a whit about social boundaries, and manners. If someone finds what you have posted offensive, and calls you on it, a better recourse would have been to say "I'm sorry to have given offense."


Your social boundaries sound more like social strait jackets, and a better recourse is to tell you to get a sense of humor. If someone finds a post offensive, the first question to ask is whether or not his offense is reasonable or if he's a self-righteous twit like you who's just looking for an excuse to offended. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the Pit.

[karomon]

Originally posted by Boo
Maybe Scott was an active christian...I haven't seen any stories saying he even went to church at all.

Maybe he is jewish? or maybe an atheist?

Or maybe he was a SATANIST !!!

Well, what do you expect them to say? "Sure, it looks like he's guilty, but he's not. Just trust us." They gotta throw the blame to someone else, and I think they found the mother of all targets. C'mon, people, SATAN! Plus, this leaves them with an almost unextinguishable amount of suspects. Remember Rosemary's Baby? It could be anyone, for chrissakes!

Don't even try and take offense, there, Mr. or Ms. alternative-faith. I'm not bashing you. I am revealing you as you are seen through the prism of the status quo. Ok? Fine. I'm glad we're friends.

[lezlers]

Lonesomepolecat,

Gee, has comedy central picked you up yet? Or did you just not get enough attention as a child and now insist bashing anyone different from you to get a few pitiful laughs? :rolleyes:

And thanks for explaining the pit to me, I've only been here a year and a half and have gotten the bulk of my post count here. One of the rules that is the same in all forums is the "don't be a jerk" rule, which you don't seem to have heard of.

Do you tell "tard" jokes to mentally handicapped people and then get pissed off when they take offense? Shit, they just need to get themselves a sense of humor right? And the colerds? Do ya get a good chuckle outta them when you tell them jokes? How bout the spicks? Are they lacking a sense of humor too?

Boy, people are just too damn sensitive, aren't they lonsomepolecat :rolleyes:

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Oh please, spare us from the "offended by proxy" people. I'm a Methodist. If lonesomepolecat had satirized my religon, I would probably get a good chuckle out of it. Being offended on behalf of Satanists is letting your mind be so open that your brains fall out. It's SATIRE, people. Quit taking everything so seriously.

Besides, did any of you check out QueerGeekGirl's link? The "religion" is almost a parody of itself.

[lezlers]

satire is one thing, being openly and unapologetically insulting is quite another. And continuing with personal insults when someone voices their offense is just pathetic.

And this?

Origionally posted by lonsomepolecatThe lunatic crediulity of so many religious believers [I, being Wiccan am one of those believers]

Isn't satire, it's a fucking personal insult. Learn the difference. Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't make it okay.

[Road Rash]

I vote LonesomePolecat's comments as quite funny, and meant to be taken in jest. Come on! Lighten up. All faiths get parodied here. Screw the Gods if they have no sense of humor.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

I do know the difference. I don't think you realize that satire is supposed to be barbed. If you are so sensitive that lonesomepolecat's comments have wounded your ego so severely, you need to crawl up on the pedestal with mockingbird.

[Monty]

Originally posted by karomon
Well, what do you expect them to say? "Sure, it looks like he's guilty, but he's not. Just trust us." They gotta throw the blame to someone else, and I think they found the mother of all targets. C'mon, people, SATAN! Plus, this leaves them with an almost unextinguishable amount of suspects. Remember Rosemary's Baby? It could be anyone, for chrissakes!

I think the good State of California needs to crack down on lawyers who start touting false theories with no evidence. This latest stunt is right up (down?) there with the Van Damme defendant's lawyers telling lies in court.

[ratty]

Both lezlers and lonesomepolecat have valid points.

I took lonesomepolecat's post to be a satire on the way Satanism is viewed by the mainstream. I'm pretty sure if an actual Satanist were to read the post, they'd agree. He just gathered every cliche about Satanism ever put forth by horror films, 60 Minutes, fundamentalist propaganda, and black-clad teenagers hanging out at your local mall and magnified them for comedic effect. Lesse...I was raised Catholic, so I guess in the same vein someone could make jokes about pedophilia, cross-dressing, witch-burning, transubstantiation, the Inquisition, repression, and the Pope's hat. Offensive? Maybe if you think the satirist is being serious. Otherwise, I'd have to say no.

On the other hand, lezlers may have reason to be concerned. Most people actually believe those things about Satanism, and are certainly not going to visit the church's website on a fact-finding mission. As Diane[/i] pointed out, this very same brand of ignorance has 1 person on death row and 2 serving life sentences in the state of Arkansas.


Good on ya, [b]Diane. I second her suggestion that everyone visit the www.wm3.org website and watch the documentaries. You will be horrified. You will be angry. Hopefully you will do something about it.


The fact that a lawyer would even consider using such a defense speaks volumes about both the American justice system and the American belief system.

Now then. Insulting someone's religious beliefs is certainly rude. But I'm not so sure it qualifies as intolerant. No one here is calling for any religion to be banned. There's a big difference in saying "These beliefs are ridiculous" and saying "Everyone who believes this should be shot". There's such a fine line here, and I'll be the first to say I have no idea just where it lies. I'll try to post my own feelings here. I think it's extremely rude and hateful to say something like "All religious people are stupid." I don't think anyone would argue about that. But I don't think it's hateful to express negative opinions about particular beliefs. Rude, yes. But if you can back up your opinion with facts, I think one should be allowed to argue on this point. More tactful expression would help.

I think holding a negative opinion about a religous belief system is different from holding negative opinions about other personal characteristics, because religious belief is a choice. Belief is more-or-less a firmly held opinion, and as all us Dopers know, no opinion is sacred here. Tolerance for other people's opinions does not automatically require one to quietly accept those opinions. It only requires respect for others' rights to hold them. For example, let's say someone posts that their favorite color is green. This is an opinion. It's okay for other people to disagree with this opinion. I think it's even okay, if bad manners, to say someone is dumb for having this opinion. It is not okay for anyone to say "How dare you disagree with me that green is the best color?! People who don't like green deserve to be publicly flogged!"

Um. Just my thoughts on this.

[Cavalier]

Originally posted by QueerGeekGirl
I think a few folks need to head over to Church of Satan dot com (http://www.churchofsatan.com) and educate themselves. This bullshit is getting ridiculous.

You are being very pagan-centric.

Those are satanists, of course, but they aren't the only satanists, there are those who believe in and worship the Christian devil, such as those reported in the Fortean Times (171:33), citing the Daily Telegraph (17 December, 2001):
In mid-December, police in Madrid found "possessed individuals" performing rites with dissected eagles, goats and entrails after people complained about the noise from a disused abattoir in the Spanish capital. those taking place escaped by clambering out through the roof, leaving the officers to examine blood spattered walls on which was written "Satan will conquer" and in various places the number 6.
The article cites various other examples, including attacks on horses in my area, after which the local paper received a torrent of hate mail from "fluffy bunny neopagans" for blaming pagans based on, as the Fortean Times puts it, "apparent black magic symbols, including pentagrams and double-headed axes" discovered drawn or carved nearby.

These people weren't members of the church of satan, or fluffy bunny neopagans. So, what should we call them if not satanists?

Lonepolecat, I thought it was funny, but not that funny. It was too long, too.

Zabali_Clawbane, you seem very trendy.

[Summertime]

Now Satanists have great p.r.!
Yes, Satanists (though now you will come along and say, well those aren't real Satanists) do kill animals and people.

recall the quote; Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law?
The ends does justify the means for them.
Not wrong to lie about something, if you killed, wouldn't you lie about it?
:rolleyes:

[Zabali_Clawbane]

/hijack

I have never to my recollection been referred to as "trendy". There's a first time for everything. I feel strangely flattered, Cavalier. You did mean that as such, right? You weren't sneering at me, and trying to discredit me by saying I'm only Pagan because it's in style right? If so, I hope you will soon see the error of that hasty assumption.

Considering the facts that:
1. despite the fact that I'm 30, but look younger
2. dress comfortably in jeans t-shirt and sturdy shoes, (often entirely in black, good color vibes for me)
3. am considered eccentric at the least, if not outright geeky, (I'm a goth in a VERY small town, I've been a goth since High Schol, but it was blended into a "weird art student" persona)
4. have "geeky" hobbies like A D&D and Everquest,
5. like Star Trek, and Star Wars
6. actually read science mags and The National Geographic when I can get my claws on them,
7. watch animal planet TLC and TDC etc.
8. read science fiction, science fantasy, and murder mysteries,
9. don't even conform with non-conformists in that I do what's comfortable to me, if it's in style so be it, if not...eh, so what
10. watch cartoons (Anime like Kimagure Orange Road, various animated movies, and Cartoon Network creations like 2 Stupid Dogs, Dexter's Laboratory, Courage the Cowardly Dog etc.)
11. laugh uproariously in public
12. talk to small children as if they are thinking feeling beings
13. talk to (my friend's and my own) cats as if they have some understanding
14. am known as "that weird goth chick" or "that weird hippy chick" or "that crazy white girl"
15. have given up hiding my feline type traits (friends later told me that they thought of a cat when they first saw me)
16. was raised Christian, but broke from that religion due to personal experiences that left a very bad taste, and a sense of hurt betrayal. I do not deny the existence of God or Jesus Christ, but I do not practice that religion any more. (There are many aspects to the male side of Divinity after all...)

I'll take that observation as a compliment Cavalier. :)

hijack/

[Diane]

Z_C - Maybe I missed it entirely, but what did your last post have to do with the price of tea in China?

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Summertime, you're generalizing again.

That's like saying Druids sacrifice people at High Summer. (They don't, but they sometimes did LONG ago. The sacrifices were willing, the people knew what they were getting into, that they might be killed so the crops would prosper.)

I guess I haven't made this point well enough. To say that SOME people do this thing, and that they claim to be a part of (insert religion here) is one thing. To say that (name of religion) does this thing, is a blanket statement.

I'm calling for fairness, and accuracy here. I'm certain that there are people out there, who really believe that they are (insert any religion here) and commit crimes in the name of (insert any religion here). Yes, Satanism is one of those religions, but Druidism gets just as much flack due to their history.

It's the blanket statements that peeve me. Not everyone who is a member of those religions are ticking time bombs waiting to explode in gory profusion. A small percent of any religion are criminals.

Do you see it now? You and I both know that Druids no longer sacrifice anything, but people still direct hatred and suspicion at them. People who practice Santa Ria do ritual sacrifices, but they are chickens, which they kill humanely, cook and eat as part of the ritual.

I'm pretty sure that if someone posted a thread about how "(All) Christians Commit Infanticide" we'd get a lot of angry people, and rightfully so. But, lately more than one Christian has killed her children, claiming "God told me to." This does not make lumping all Christians into the same cubbyhole ok.

In short, I'm not saying you can't have your own suspicion clouded opinions, I have my own and you are welcome to keep yours. Just please, don't make blanket statements saying that everyone who is a part of a group does a certain thing, ok?

I'll paraphrase what I said earlier. There are certain kinds of blanket statements, and generalizations that strike a nerve with me. Blanket statements that mock and accuse religious groups are among them. I don't like it when such statements are directed at the religion I am a part of, and so I don't put up with it at all. If it's allowed with that one group over there, it should be allowed with this one too so I don't put up with it period.


Diane, the previous post was responding (in a whimsical fashion) to a comment that was directed towards me. It was lengthy, but I hope it got the point across.

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally posted by lezlers
Lonesomepolecat,

Boy, people are just too damn sensitive, aren't they lonsomepolecat :rolleyes:

(great big enormous sigh) Y'know, Pagans like you are one of the reasons I'm a solitary.

One of the things I've always liked about the neo-Pagan movement is that many Pagans, unlike a lot of other religious movements, are very much aware of the various kinds of silliness going on in their ranks. Pretty much everyone has a funny story or two about a "Wicca wacky" she's met, most fight desperately not to laugh out loud when talking to a 19-year-old who's just read a couple of Wicca 101 books and proclaimed himself a high priest, many are all too painfully aware of and embarassed by the transparent scams and absurd merchandising ("spell kits" my fat cracker ass!!!).

And sometimes the silliness is dangerous--how many people have been emotionally or sexually abused and financially exploited by "elders" or "high priests" who were not at all reluctant to take advantage of gullible or desperate people? Quite likely you yourself know of some coven that formed with everyone swearing oaths of perfect trust and everlasting loyalty only to break up six months later with everyone flinging acriminous accusations at everyone else. I once got caught in the crossfire of a witch war, and I barely even knew any of the combatants--but all of them were dead sure that I was on the other side. I learned years later that some of 'em had cast some pretty ugly curses on me.

You see, I have this complaint with many neo-Pagans, and it's the same complaint I have with all religions: there is far too much gullibility and self-deception, which in turn makes many of the other abuses possible.

Squeal and howl all you please about my intolerance and bigotry and all that, I'm not going to apologize because only a self-righteous jerk would have taken offense in the first place. If you'll visit the Cauldron website at Delphi Forums and go to the humor section, you'll find plenty of stuff that was every bit as rough on Pagans as my little bit of satire and perhaps even rougher. I'm certainly not the only Pagan who's ever noticed these things.

And I don't like Satanism or Satanists. To put the matter as bluntly as possible, they're basically a bunch of dorks and losers acting out adolescent power fantasies, and they seem to have more than their fair share of sociopaths in their ranks. Google Isaac Bonewitz' essay about his years with La Vey's Church of Satan, and you'll soon realize why most Pagans don't want Satanism to be identified with the neo-Pagan movement in any way.

Take that broomstick out of your ass and learn how to laugh.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Ya know what? I've said my piece, that's it. You're obviously...well yeah...whatever. :rolleyes:

It's not worth anymore effort from me, because it hasn't soaked in yet, and I doubt it ever will. Now, I have much more important things to do, like cuddling Mr. Clawbane, or enjoying the mild Spring weather, or numerous other things that are so much more worthwhile than beating this dead horse.

:dubious:

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally posted by Zabali_Clawbane
Ya know what? I've said my piece, that's it. You're obviously...well yeah...whatever. :rolleyes:

It's not worth anymore effort from me, because it hasn't soaked in yet, and I doubt it ever will. Now, I have much more important things to do, like cuddling Mr. Clawbane, or enjoying the mild Spring weather, or numerous other things that are so much more worthwhile than beating this dead horse.

:dubious:

Honey, your mind isn't just closed, it's hermetically sealed. Buh-bye. Don't hurry back.

[Lilairen]

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" is, of course, Crowley; the next line is "Love is the law, Love under Will."

Crowley had this dementedly optimistic notion that people engaging in their True Will would not possibly wish to do each other harm, because the desire to do harm cannot be what people truly desire. Aleister Crowley, Father of Fluffy-Bunny Neopaganism. ;)

As always, terms of art make life difficult when removed from their context.

(Please excuse if this multiposts, I'm detecting tired, timed-out hamsters.)

[lezlers]

Lonsomepolecat, you've obviously had some bad experiences and that's too bad. I think you could use some serious smudging to get rid of some of that residual resentment and hostility. Lashing out so harshly at people that disagree with you says a lot about a person.

And for your info, I do have a sense of humor, I just don't find you funny. If that makes me a self rightous asshole in your eyes, then I guess that's how you see me. *shrug*

[ralph124c]

Lets have a serious dialogue about a wacky defense lawyer who leaks a story to the press , alleging that his client is not guilty because:
-Laci was abducted and killedby satanists
-her unborn child was used in a satanist ceremony
I think everybody ought to be outraged at the conduct of thisjerk. His place as a lawyer, is to dispute the prosecutor's evidence, not invent fantastic tales about what might have happened!

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally posted by lezlers
Lonsomepolecat, you've obviously had some bad experiences and that's too bad. I think you could use some serious smudging to get rid of some of that residual resentment and hostility. Lashing out so harshly at people that disagree with you says a lot about a person.

And for your info, I do have a sense of humor, I just don't find you funny. If that makes me a self rightous asshole in your eyes, then I guess that's how you see me. *shrug*

Don't you ever get dizzy up there on your high horse?

Spare us your phony compassion. That's just a smarmy way of saying "I don't have to take you seriously because you are obviously a badly damaged person." Next time you're tempted to bash someone for daring to poke some fun at your co-religionists, maybe you'll think before you "lash out." Some Pagans (as with any other religion) do and say foolish things, things that deserve a hearty horse laugh, and decrying those who laugh at them as bigots makes you a bigot.

No, you don't have a sense of humor. Get one. You need it badly.

[athene1765]

Sorry, LonesomePolecat's post stuck that "Peaceful Warrior" song in my head...

"Peaceful Warrior, great big brain...Become one with Shirley Maclaine..."

Sense of humor, even about your own beliefs. It's a precious thing. But at least the pagans are being nicer than some of the angry Christians I've been berated by...NO OFFENSE MEANT TO ANY CHRISTIANS, ESPECIALLY POLYCARP!

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by Summertime
Now Satanists have great p.r.!
Yes, Satanists (though now you will come along and say, well those aren't real Satanists) do kill animals and people.

recall the quote; Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law?
The ends does justify the means for them.
Not wrong to lie about something, if you killed, wouldn't you lie about it?
:rolleyes:

Gee, and you wouldn't be talking out your ass about it?

Of course not.

Either provide proof to support your claim or retract it.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law." is not about killing or committing crimes without conscience.

[lezlers]

Originally posted by LonesomePolecat
Don't you ever get dizzy up there on your high horse?

Spare us your phony compassion. That's just a smarmy way of saying "I don't have to take you seriously because you are obviously a badly damaged person." Next time you're tempted to bash someone for daring to poke some fun at your co-religionists, maybe you'll think before you "lash out." Some Pagans (as with any other religion) do and say foolish things, things that deserve a hearty horse laugh, and decrying those who laugh at them as bigots makes you a bigot.

No, you don't have a sense of humor. Get one. You need it badly.

I honestly don't know what else to say to you. Calling me a bigot for not laughing at a religious joke? You're really reaching there, guy. Anyhoo, I give up.

You are the funniest person to ever grace the planet earth. All who don't find a particular joke you told funny are just self rightious jerks with no sense of humor. :rolleyes:

Feel better now?

[lezlers]

oh, damn, this board has been CRAZY the past few days. I just now was able to read Zabali_Clawbane's and ratty's last posts.

Thanks very much both of you for posting calm, rational and coherent comments about this issue.

I fully agree with everything Zabali said and she said it much more eloquently than I could have.

[Greyson3]

Originally posted by Zabali_Clawbane
Summertime, you're generalizing again.

That's like saying Druids sacrifice people at High Summer. (They don't, but they sometimes did LONG ago. The sacrifices were willing, the people knew what they were getting into, that they might be killed so the crops would prosper.)


Might I inquire as to where you heard this?

[DrDeth]

Unfortunately, the terms get confused, and thus dudes get confused over who is who and what is what.

To summarize we have the following:

Neopagans: those who follow a modern version of an old pagan faith, such as the Celtic faith. Some call themself 'witches". Sometimes "shamanists". A legit faith.

Wiccans: a more or less new faith, with some ties to "neo-paganism" and borrowing some traditions from the old pagan faiths, and some symbolism & terms from Witchcraft & Satanism. Some Wiccans call themselves "witches". Also legit- altho there are "poseurs" of course.

Witches- traditionally; someone who barters with the nether powers, that is demons & devils and spirits, thus a "satanist" in a way. However, for some odd reason, Wiccans & some Neo-pagans insist on calling themselves "witches", then get all upset when dudes confuse them with sorcerers/witches/satanists. Not a "real" religion- IMHO. However, those that are "wiccans" but call themselves "witches" are in a "real faith", of course (see above).

(If you really NEED to be called a "witch" then fine- but do not get all huffy when dudes get you confused with the traditional meaning of the word. Why not come up with a new word, rather than trying to change the meaning of a word loaded with so much negative connotation? Note that "rabbi" means "teacher", and thus one could call themself "rabbi" if one "taught" a faith or religous philosphy. But then- if you did so- don't get all riled if dudes think you are Jewish, please)

Pagans- those who follow "old school" non-bibilical faiths. The american Indian faiths are "pagans". Their preists can be called "shamans". Very real.

Satanists: those who worship the Adversary, Lucifer, the Prince of Darkness, etc. Some call themselves "witches". Can legitimately be assumed to be "not nice". Some deluded crazies do horrible things in the name of "satanism"- however, there is no evidence they are organized in any way. Real?

The "Church of Satan": a modern re-doing of "Satanism" by Levay & co. Not the only "satanists" in the world. More "egoists" than "evil". I am not sure if these guys take themselves seriously.

I admit there is exactly no evidence that "satanists" commited this murder. Which is exactly equal to the amount of evidence (that has been released) that Scott did it. Maybe that is the point that the attorney is making.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Greyson3 a person of the Druidic faith, told me of their faith's history.

Also anthropological/archeological studies in the U.K.'s bogs. (I believe the National Geographic did a study there years ago.) Several people interred there, in the same ritual manner. That's odd in a way, then you find that they are about the same age, they all died in almost identical ways at differing times, it seems to point at ritualistic killing.

I know this does not go on today, but some faith apparently did this once, and those studying it thought it most attributable to the Druids. Ok, I took that with a grain of salt, until I heard from a Druid's lips that it once happened. Are you saying they were misinformed? If so, please politely educate me, I'm willing to learn.

[Greyson3]

Originally posted by Zabali_Clawbane
Greyson3 a person of the Druidic faith, told me of their faith's history.

Also anthropological/archeological studies in the U.K.'s bogs. (I believe the National Geographic did a study there years ago.) Several people interred there, in the same ritual manner. That's odd in a way, then you find that they are about the same age, they all died in almost identical ways at differing times, it seems to point at ritualistic killing.


Well, you said it like you were pretty sure of it. Perhaps you could point me in the direction of a specific scholarly paper or publication? Not that I am doubting your acquaintance's word or your memory, but it is pretty easy to be misinformed about things that happened hundreds of years before you were born.

There is little that is actually known about the druids, seeing as they didn't exactly keep meeting notes, and I have noticed a tendency for even the most well-intentioned people to attempt to fill in the gaps with information that may not really have any specific basis in fact.

Some people say it's a spiritual sort of knowledge, and that's fine, as far as it goes. It isn't really the sort of thing that holds any weight in a historical discussion, however, as I am sure you understand.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Alas, I don't remember the publication date on the National Geographic I read. It could have been a decade or more old, but I read it more recently than that.

I will try to find the archeological/anthropoligical study I watched, but I don't know if I'll have any luck or not. I remember them showing the slit throats, the tannins in the bog waters preserved the bodies, and you could see features etc. Maybe The National Geographic Society filmed their study too? Not sure, but I know I watched a film done by another group. As for the RL Druid who told me that it once happened, they are not on SDMB.

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally posted by lezlers
I honestly don't know what else to say to you

Fuck you if you can't take a joke. I'm tired of you. Buh bye.

[Summertime]

Originally posted by Zabali_Clawbane
Summertime, you're generalizing again.




In short, I'm not saying you can't have your own suspicion clouded opinions, I have my own and you are welcome to keep yours. Just please, don't make blanket statements saying that everyone who is a part of a group does a certain thing, ok?




Did not mean to generalize.
My point was : "Satanists", whoever they may be, do not, as a point have compunctions about telling white lies to sound better than they are.
IF, and I'm saying IF any Satnaist killed someone, they certainly wouldn't Admit it.
Not like they figured God would get mad at them for lying.
I hope thats clearer.

[carrot]

Originally posted by Summertime
Did not mean to generalize.
My point was : "Satanists", whoever they may be, do not, as a point have compunctions about telling white lies to sound better than they are.And yet you're doing it again.
IF, and I'm saying IF any Satnaist killed someone, they certainly wouldn't Admit it. Quite unlike those Christians who step right up to claim responsibility, right? Or are you going to claim those aren't "real" Christians?

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Come now, carrot, now you're just aatacking summertime for the sake of attacking summertime. The fact is that Satanists, be they merely egoists or whatever, probably wouldn't have a problem with telling "white lies". The egoism doctrine considers the self to be primary, and telling a small lie to accomplish a personal goal would be consistent with that philosophy.

[Monty]

Care to prove that assertion, Monkey; or perhaps you prefer the "summertime method?"

[carrot]

Originally posted by A Monkey With a Gun
Come now, carrot, now you're just aatacking summertime for the sake of attacking summertime. A worthy goal in itself, yes?
The fact is that Satanists, be they merely egoists or whatever, probably wouldn't have a problem with telling "white lies". The egoism doctrine considers the self to be primary, and telling a small lie to accomplish a personal goal would be consistent with that philosophy. While that is true, Summertime brought up this point in the specific context of murdering someone and lying about it. To say that "Satanists wouldn't have a problem with that" is to gloss over the fact that quite a large number of people who aren't Satanists don't seem to have a problem with that.

On preview: Monty, I think that the "egoism doctrine" is part and parcel of The Church of Satan's dogma. I mean, the first Satanic statement (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/NineStatements.html) is "Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!" Now, while this may be interpreted differently by different practicioners (and I wish I knew some, it would be a big help), sin is obviously not a big no-no.

[lezlers]

Originally posted by LonesomePolecat
Fuck you if you can't take a joke. I'm tired of you. Buh bye.

Well, then I guess I just better skiddadle then huh? I mean, you don't want to deal with me anymore. :rolleyes:

Get over yourself.

[ultrafilter]

Originally posted by carrot
A worthy goal in itself, yes?
While that is true, Summertime brought up this point in the specific context of murdering someone and lying about it. To say that "Satanists wouldn't have a problem with that" is to gloss over the fact that quite a large number of people who aren't Satanists don't seem to have a problem with that.

On preview: Monty, I think that the "egoism doctrine" is part and parcel of The Church of Satan's dogma. I mean, the first Satanic statement (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/NineStatements.html) is "Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!" Now, while this may be interpreted differently by different practicioners (and I wish I knew some, it would be a big help), sin is obviously not a big no-no.

Keep in mind that there are different groups that would call themselves Satanists. I'm not a member of the Church of Satan--in fact, Satanist isn't quite the right label for me--and I can't speak for the folks at that organization, but if you go through the FAQ for the First Church of Satan (http://www.churchofsatan.org), you'll find something a little closer to what I believe. I'll write more later, when I'm not at work.

To address the specific question, if I were going to kill someone, I sure would lie about it, cause I don't want to go to prison. That's also a really good reason for me not to kill someone in the first place, unless it was in self-defense. If there was no law against it, I personally still wouldn't kill anyone unless it was in self-defense. Others may have a different stand.

As far as the question of sin goes, a very wise person (whose name I can't remember) once said that "Sin is doing what you know to be wrong." If you believe something is wrong, and you do it anyway, you're going to feel guilty. That's not pleasant, so better to avoid it. It's just a question of what *you* believe to be wrong.

The essence of LaVey's Satanism, as I understand it, is an emphasis on individual choices and responsibility, with an eye towards living a pleasant life. I am responsible for what I do, and nothing can change that. So if I want to have a good time of it (and I do), I had better make the choices that lead there. Obviously, I'm not going to be very happy if I'm in jail and have no friends, so I should make choices that don't lead down that path. Think of it as hedonism with a long-term eye. And I have no problem with that, but there are some other things he and his followers added that I don't like so much.

btw, I thought lonesomepolecat's mock application was one of the funniest things I've read recently.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Originally posted by Monty
Care to prove that assertion, Monkey; or perhaps you prefer the "summertime method?" Though, carrot has already touched on this, I don't need to "prove" that assertion. The egoism angle has already been covered. All I was saying is that lying would not be against the egoist philosophy because, by definition, it puts self gain first. Capiche?
originally posted by carrot
While that is true, Summertime brought up this point in the specific context of murdering someone and lying about it. To say that "Satanists wouldn't have a problem with that" is to gloss over the fact that quite a large number of people who aren't Satanists don't seem to have a problem with that.Well, you see..... the thing is..... what I mean to say is...... aw, hell, I can't defend summertime. I got so sidetracked in the debate with the humorless lezlers (shouldn't there be a limit on the amount of times someone can use the rolleyes smilie?), that I forgot y'all were having a simultaneous discussion and forgot the context. You're absolutely right, just about any murderer is going to lie about the crime, regardless of their proffessed religion, so summertime's point is moot.

[Monty]

You don't need to prove it now because carrot did your legwork for you. Hie^u? kho^ng?

[lezlers]

Monkey

:rolleyes:


;)

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Anybody got an archimedes balance? I think we need to measure Monty......

No, I don't need to "prove" that some Satanists hold an egoist philosophy as we have already covered that ad nauseum. And I don't need to "prove" that egoists put the self above all because that is how egoism is defined. Therefore, "egoists don't have a moral problem about lying" is not a radical assertion as it builds on what has already been laid down in the discussion. Try to keep up.

[carrot]

Of course not! Satanism was just a red herring!

[Summertime]

Originally posted by Monty
Care to prove that assertion, Monkey; or perhaps you prefer the "summertime method?"

and what would that be?

[Monty]

That would what you exemplified in your first post on page one and first post on page two of this thread, Summertime. You tossed something out as though it is a fact, when it's not a fact. That's just bad form.

I notice that in another thread you retracted that same error. Feel free to do so here.

[Summertime]

Well.
I have read (Johanna Michaelsen's book) that there are documented cases of people claiming to be satanists killing animals, etc.)
I don't have the cites handy, but can get them.
I certainly wouldn't put it past them!
Its almost funny: it feels like its politically incorrect to knock satanists!
They are not upstanding people!
Am I in bizarro world or is it bad to knock anyone at all?

[Monty]

It's not the issue of being politically incorrect to knock someone; it's the issue of making assertions without evidence to back up that assertion. "I wouldn't put it past them" doesn't constitute evidence; it constitutes prejudice--regardless of the target.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Originally posted by Summertime
I have read (Johanna Michaelsen's book) that there are documented cases of people claiming to be satanists killing animals, etc.) Johanna Michaelson? The anti-halloween lady? I don't think you can honestly use her as an unbiased source on crime statistics. She doesn't work in facts; she works in paranoia. Probably thinks the Harry Potter books can teach your kids to summon demons.

A quick google search on "Johanna Michaelson" and "halloween" brought up her essay (http://www.webzonecom.com/ccn/cults/issu38.txt). My favorite part: "This is Jesus' night," I said. Why, I'm not really sure. I was poignantly aware of the fact that it is a night the devil has made a point of claiming for himself.

"No it's not!" snarled a hidden voice. "It's Jason's night!"

A boy who was taller than the rest stepped out from the shadows. He was wearing the white hockey mask of Jason, the demented, ghoulish killer in the movie Friday The 13th and was brandishing a very realistic-looking hatchet. I have to admit that the boy gave me a start, but I stood my ground and dropped a banana into his bag.

"No, Jason, this is still Jesus' night!" I repeated.

Jason evidently resented the competition, however, for he ripped our mailbox right out of the ground and left his banana squished on the stair.Now that's just evil. Who gives out freakin' bananas on halloween?

Later on there are some straight to video movie plot things about covens sacrificing young women and newborns. Her writings don't have any documented evidence, they just pander to paranoid parents who believe in boogiemen more than their children do. However, I will give her credit for seperating neo-pagans from satanists, even if she got most of the pagan beliefs wrong.

[carrot]

Originally posted by Summertime
<snip> there are documented cases of people claiming to be satanists killing animals, etc.)Now you're really starting to irritate me. There are documented cases of people claiming to be Christians killing people and animals, cases of Hindus killing people and animals, Muslims, Pagans, godless commie pinkos, and little old ladies who knit doilies in their spare time. What is your fucking point?
I don't have the cites handy, but can get them. Promises, promises.
I certainly wouldn't put it past them!Bully for you. Your ignorant opinions (MY IGNORANT OPINION) are not the issue here.
Its almost funny: it feels like its politically incorrect to knock satanists!How's about you have some evidence to knock them based on their religion first? Then, you can do all the Satanist-bashing you want. Until then, however, you will have to deal with me.
They are not upstanding people! Do you know any?
Am I in bizarro world or is it bad to knock anyone at all? Not at all. You can try your hand at me all you like. Be my guest. But don't be bashing people because of your perceptions of their religion, or you WILL be called on it. Unless, of course, it's something really awful, like Mormonism.
just kidding, Monty. ;)

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Summertime, in your first post you misinterpreted the Rede, which I follow. The Rede states, "An It Harm None, Do As Ye Will". Some authors go on to paraphrase this into "Do As Ye Will is the whole of the law." It's reminding people to follow the Rede, which I've already explained on page one. It does NOT give me free license to act as I please, quite the contrary. It's a strict no nonsense rule NOT TO HARM ANYTHING with my actions.

I believe you might be thinking of people who practice Santa Ria as a religion when you state "satanists" sacrifice animals. They have the legally upheld (in the USA) right to HUMANELY kill, cook, and then eat chickens during their rituals, and they do this. The stipulation is that they must kill humanely, and they are checked up on by the ASPCA.

Why don't you go to this site (http://www.witchvox.com) and read this section? (http://www.witchvox.com/basics/school_reports.html) Come back when you have learned more about the religions you are poiinting "the giant finger of immoral criminality" at, ok? You have fallen into the mistaken assumptions that authors have spoon fed you. Those assumptions being a blending of several religions that aren't Judeo/Christian into one big catagory:SATANISM!!!:eek:

Really, go learn about these religions that you are accusing before you make any more paranoia riddled statements. It won't taint you, it will give you a better understanding, and hopefully less anxiety too. Isn't one of the precepts of Evangelical Christianity to learn about the other religions you will be encountering, to better understand, and so as not to offend etcetera?

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Here, since my spelling has been in error, I went and found 2 articles about the religion Santeria for you. It's pronounced Santa Ria though. Sorry for the confusion.

Santeria: a need for cultural sensitivity. (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/weird_news/5646857.htm)

A quick history/explanation of Santeria. (http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/1,1249,100005300,00.html?)

[ratty]

Originally posted by Summertime
I have read (Johanna Michaelsen's book)

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Ah, ahem. *wipes tear* Oh, sorry. You were saying?

[quote]Its almost funny: it feels like its politically incorrect to knock satanists!

I know! It's a lowdown dirty shame when an honest bigot can't do a day's bashing without these new-fangled PC folks getting on their high horses.

Am I in bizarro world or is it bad to knock anyone at all?

It's still perfectly okay to knock the ignorant and the prejudiced. Oh, and people who shout out misinformed notions and base all their decisions on what they've read in Reader's Digest.

I trust you get the point?

[Dragonstar]

Originally posted by Road Rash
I have heard of many cases where somebody murdered another because God ordered them to. There's a lady down in Houston who killed 5 of her kids for that reason.

She was mentally ill and hearing voices; totally different than killing in the name of god (pick a god, any god).

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by Dragonstar
She was mentally ill and hearing voices; totally different than killing in the name of god (pick a god, any god).

Killing for God, killing for God, killing for god...

When has this ever happened in the past?

Oh, that's right: The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem Witch Trials.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

*Wanders in* Oh, and the Burning Times, don't forget those.

For those of you who don't realize, there was a period in history where unknown numbers of people in the European world were killed horribly because they were thought to be witches. Some sources give a rough estimate of the people who were burned, hung, or tortured to death on the charge of witchcraft as being 9 million during this period.

It was during this time that Pope Innocent VIII wrote his Bull Against Witches in 1484. In 1487 two German monks, Heinrich Institoris Kramer, and Jakob Spranger forged the approbation of the Theological Faculty of the University of Colonge (the appointed censer of the time) for their work the Maleus Maleficarum. An EVIL EVIL book *shudder* It makes my hands itch to remember even touching it. The forged approval was not discovered until 1898. (My source for this is Raymond Buckland's work "Complete Book of Witchcraft" I've read it in other reliable sources too, but this is the one I have in front of me for fact checking.)

This wicked tome has 3 parts, the first part admonishes the reader that NOT to believe in witchcraft is heresy, and outlines what witches do. The second part tells how witchcraft is worked, and how to combat it. The third part tells how to prosecute witches in the courts. It states that it is perfectly acceptable to listen to testimony from an accused's "mortal enemy". :eek: I have read as much of this...thing as I could. I got the translated, work, with the original format preserved through interlibrary loan.

Ok, ranting done. I hope the defense attorney does not actually use the "Satanists did it, not my client!" tactic. IMO it would not only be a bane to pagans, but if the prosecutor is any good at all, and does their homework it will get him laughed out of the courtroom. The above historical events are why I don't like the flames of suspicion to be fanned, with Paganism, and Satanism interchangeably used.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Drat it! The names of the monks who wrote "The Maleus Maleficarum" are Heinrich Institoris Kramer and Jakob SprEnger, not SprAnger.:smack: I even double checked that spelling in case some of the more dubious Dopers wanted to verify that the book actually exists. Incidentally the name translates to mean "Witch Hammer".

[Essured]

Peterson Autopsy article (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030530/ap_on_re_us/laci_peterson&cid=519&ncid=716)

the body of Laci Peterson (news - web sites)'s infant son had a significant cut and plastic tape wrapped around his neck

[Zenster]

I was concerned about the infant's state coming up here. Please be sure to include all information pertaining to this.

Another excerpt (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/a/2003/05/29/national1511EDT0089.DTL) from AP's article:

----------------------------------------

It's possible the baby's body was cut shoulder to shoulder or became wrapped in the tape because of its long submersion in San Francisco Bay, the MSNBC report said, adding that the part of the coroner's report the network received "doesn't prove anything one way or another."

----------------------------------------

[Essured]

Sorry Zenster, I missed that bit. I only briefly scanned the article and thought it might be of interest to some posters here.

Apologies if I misled anyone. It was unintentional.

[Zenster]

Not to fear, Goo. If Scottie really is guilty, then he should fry very slowly. I too had the same thoughts as you when I read that article. However, when I saw the caveat, I wanted to make sure it was posted here for accuracy.

[Juniper200]

Incidentally the name translates to mean "Witch Hammer".
I've also heard "Mallet Against Malefactors" as an acceptable translation of <i>Malleus Maleficarum</i>, as it retains both the condemnation and the aliteration of the original while re-establishing the colloquial feel of the Latin title.

Works either way, though; both titles make it clear that this is not something from the "Chicken Soup for the Soul" series.

[Bricker]

Originally posted by Zabali_Clawbane
The third part tells how to prosecute witches in the courts. It states that it is perfectly acceptable to listen to testimony from an accused's "mortal enemy". :eek:

In US courts today, it is perfectly acceptable to listen to testimony from the accused's "mortal enemy."

- Rick

[SCSimmons]

Originally posted by Dragonstar
She was mentally ill and hearing voices ...

And so was Abraham, right? :confused:

When the voices tell you to do something, how can you tell whether you're mentally ill or hearing the voice of God? I imagine that one would work under the presumption that one is hearing the voice of God; after all, one can only suffer finite punishment at the hands of man for disregarding man's law, but one can suffer infinite punishment at the hands of God for flouting His instructions. It's a simple cost-benefit analysis ...

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Bricker that may be, however, the testimony that was given at "witch trials" was things like "I saw her calling to satan to send a plague to this village." or "She stole my seed from me while I slept." or "I saw her having relations with a demon." or even "She sent an illness to my crops, livestock and myself."

The testimony that was accepted was not only outrageous because it could not be proven one way or the other, but because the people who testified were often actively trying to acquire the accused's lands. If the accused were convicted/executed the "mortal enemy" would be able to get the lands, and even all the person's possesions for a pittance. That's why it was so wrong. The "mortal enemie's" testimony was treated as being "gospel truth" and nothing the accused could say would "erase" it.