Muslim Contributions to the US and the World

[Major Kong]

I was talking to someone today and they said Muslims had made no contributions to the US or the world.

I am sure they contributed a number of things, but I don't really know what specifically. So I would like to know what Muslims have contributed to the US and the world.

I would like to keep this form a debate, so I hope we can stick to the fact.

[Major Kong]

form = from

[Earthling]

Just off the top of my head: try a Google on Avicenna, Omar Khayyam, and Al Khorezmi.

[astorian]

Well, during Europe's so-called Dark Ages (a serious misstatement of reality, but let that go for now), Arab scholars were making vital contributions to mathematicians (algebra is an Arabic word, you know) and philosophy. When Plato and Aristotle were all but forgotten in Europe, it was Arabs who kept their works alive... which in turn helped make Europe's Renaissance possible.

[ElJeffe]

I think a more accurate way of putting it would be that the number of contributions from Arabs in modern history is pretty small. They made many useful contributions to society, but that was quite awhile ago. Their growth as a society seems to have stagnated, and they're having to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world.


Jeff

[John Mace]

Islam had it's time in the sun many hundred of years ago, having contributed:

Algebra (not just the word, but the math)
Zero (no pun-- the idea of the number zero in writing numbers)
Preservation of many of the ancient Greek texts
the Compass (IIRC, but maybe transfered from China to the west thru the Islamic world)

To name just a few. These are the ones you'd probably find in any school history text.

Also, don't confuse Islam with Arab. One of the greatest Islamic empires, the Ottoman Turks, were not Arabs.

[Colibri]

A few of many examples from here (http://www.jannah.org/articles/contrib.html):

Abu Ali al-Hussain Ibn Abdallah Ibn Sina, universally known as Avicinna (980-1037), alone wrote 246 books, including Kitab-al Shifa (The Book of Healing) consisting of 20 volumes and Al-Qanun fit Tibb (The Canons of Medicine) . The Qanun was the chief guide for medical science in the West from the twelfth to the seventeenth century. Dr. William Osler, who wrote The Evolution of Modern Science, remarks "The Qanun has remained a medical Bible for a longer period than any other work". Containing over a million words, it surveyed the entire medical knowledge available from ancient and Muslim sources, and including his own original contributions.

At the same time as these advances in medicine were being made, the Muslims produced some of the most outstanding Mathematicians. Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi, born in 780 A.D., was the founder of modern Algebra. He developed sine, cosine and trigonometrical tables, which were later translated to the West. . . . Al-Khawarizmi also helped introduce Arabic numerals, the decimal position system, and the concept of zero. Algebra and Algorithm are in fact corruption's of his work and name.

Abu Abdullah al-Battani (862-929 A.D.) was a son of a scientist and also a famous astronomer, mathematician and astrologer. He is often considered one of the greatest astronomists of Islam. His career of 42 years included a number of important discoveries, including the accurate determination of the solar year as 365 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes, and 24 seconds, which is very close to modern estimates. He also determined with accuracy the obliquity of the ecliptic, the length of the seasons and the true and mean orbit of the sun.

Muslims also made discoveries in Chemistry by discovering many new substances such as potash, nitrate of silver, corrosive sublimate and nitrate and sulfuric acid as well as improving methods for evaporation, filtration, sublimation, calcination, melting, distillation, and crystallization. Jabir, otherwise known as the father of Arab alchemy contributed in the fields of Pharmacology and Toxicology.

In the field of geography, Ibn Majid invented the compass. The Muslims traversed the Indian, Atlantic and Pacific Ocean as well as sailing around the African continent, in their trading with India, Iran and Greece. They wrote such books as Akhbar al-Hind (Reports on India), Akhbar al-Sin (Reports on China) and Ajib al-Hind (Curiosities of India).

[KGS]

I seem to recall some Discovery/TLC program which credited the ancient Islam world with inventing electroplating, or at least bringing it into common use (ostensibly to make fake jewelry, proving that the Muslims are no less capitalistic than us greedy Christians.) However, I couldn't find many supporting cites in a Google search, with most cites crediting early European Renaissance scientists, so the idea must not be widely accepted as fact.

This site (http://www.amaana.org/tajik/sakarchit.htm) does make mention of electroplating being used as far back as the 11th century to decorate palaces & the like, plus it gives other interesting information about the Islamic world.

[medstar]

I'm not sure where I learned this, but didn't Arabs create alcohol? I think even the name has Islamic roots. I think that's at least equal to the previous achievements listed. At least, alcohol is important to me.

[KGS]

Umm, alcohol goes back to at least the time of Christ (that whole water-into-wine thing, you know) and probably many centuries before. Plus, doesn't the Koran forbid drinking alcohol?

[Gjorp]

"Alcohol" does have Arabic roots in the word, but that has nothing to do with them inventing it. Every culture has invented their own fermented drinks.

[BrightNShiny]

As noted previously, the arabs invented the process of distillation. Prior to the advent to distillation, it was not possible to make alcohol with significant concentrations.

Now, as to whether or not it's a great contribution to be able to make 80 proof vodka, I leave that to you. I myself quite enjoy the higher proofs.

[Colibri]

Originally posted by BrightNShiny
As noted previously, the arabs invented the process of distillation. Prior to the advent to distillation, it was not possible to make alcohol with significant concentrations.

Ironically enough, for scientific purposes only, since as Muslims they would have been forbidden to drink it.

[BrightNShiny]

Hmm, now I'm curious. I have no information as to exactly why they invented it (since there are other applications for distillation besides concentrating alcohol). Anybody know?

[Dogface]

Distillation, in addition for use in making al-qohol can also be used in the art of al-qhimie...

[Earthling]

Originally posted by BrightNShiny
Hmm, now I'm curious. I have no information as to exactly why they invented it (since there are other applications for distillation besides concentrating alcohol). Anybody know? Apparently, booze was not the reason. (http://www.wordexplorations.info/alcohol-story.html)

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally posted by Colibri
Ironically enough, for scientific purposes only, since as Muslims they would have been forbidden to drink it.

How can you be forbidden something that doesn't exist yet? I don't know for certain but it would seem to me you'd need to invent alcohol first, then allow some time to pass for people to get a sense of what it does before someone bans the stuff.

[Colibri]

Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole
How can you be forbidden something that doesn't exist yet? I don't know for certain but it would seem to me you'd need to invent alcohol first, then allow some time to pass for people to get a sense of what it does before someone bans the stuff.

You've heard of wine? Muslims are prohibited from drinking alcoholic beverages, distilled or not. Wine's been around for a long time. Its effects were well known.

[Zenster]

An old Scientific American article detailed how Arab engineers were some of the first to build the arch (layered, not keystone style). They are also responsible for a host of mechanical devices, especially force translating and reversing mechanisms.

Actions where pushing creates a pulling force and other reciprocal devices were their specialty. Another field was where small forces were translated into much larger impetus. The article went on to say that a majority of common mechanisms can be traced to these Middle Eastern designers. One look at the Alhambra tells me all I need to know about the excellence of such ancient builders.

[slipster]

As noted above, during the so-called Dark Ages the Arab world made outstanding advances in the fields of mathematics and chemistry. One legacy of this is the variety of words in English with begin with "al", that being Arabic for "the": algebra, alcohol, aluminum, alkali, etc. There is also alchemy, which translates roughly as "the Egyptian stuff".

[Blake]

AFAIK early Muslims had no problem with drinking alcohol. The only injunction I've ever seen in the Koran is against praying while drunk. There are passages prohibiting the use of intoxicants but it seems doubtful if this was ever meant to refer to wine. Lke a alot of religious restrictions I suspect it's a later addition to the tradition rather than anything specifically stated by the religion's founder.

[Enola Straight]

The most important contribution I can think of is Arabic Numerals...I can't even begin to imagine how one can do math using Roman Numerals.

[Earthling]

Uh, I thought what we call "Arabic" numerals actually originated in India (http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/innoalgebra.html), where the concept of zero also came from (IIRC).

[Major Kong]

Algebra (not just the word, but the math)

Did Muslims invent algebra? I thought the Greeks did this. For example the Pythagorean theorem: a squared + b squared = c squared.

But maybe this isn't algebra.

[paperbackwriter]

Another Arab innovation: perfume, which also stems from the whole alchohol/alchemy advances. The first true perfume, rosewater (http://www.arabia.com/entertainment/article/english/0,11827,173052,00.html), was created by the aforementioned physician Avicenna by infusing rose petals with alchohol.

And to refute ElJeffe's assertion, Arab scientists and doctors continue to contribute to modern medical advances. A brief PubMed search shows 25971 papers by authors (or co-authors) with an affiliation to an institution in Turkey, 3399 with Lebanese affiliation, 1353 with Egyptian affiliation, and 655 with Moroccan affiliation. Obviously, not all these authors are Muslim, and not all Muslim authors are in these countries, but it is a reasonable indicator that scientific inquiry continues to thrive in the Muslim world.

[raygirvan]

Blake, I agree. Although some sources, such as Muslims and alcohol (http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/booze/alcohol_about.htm), portray alcohol use as virtually collapsing on the adoption of Islam, there are plenty of later references to wine use in Islamic cultures, such as in the Arabian Nights and Omar Khayyam's Rubaiyat (http://www.armory.com/~thrace/ev/siir/Omar_Khayyam.html) (Khayyam incidentally being a significant mathematician (http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Khayyam.html) as well as a writer).

Major Kong: the Greeks knew such relations as Pythagoras Theorem and had techniques for (e.g.) root-finding, but they handled them via geometrical constructions, without algebraic notation.

[Earthling]

Originally posted by Major Kong
Did Muslims invent algebra? I thought the Greeks did this. For example the Pythagorean theorem: a squared + b squared = c squared.

But maybe this isn't algebra. The Pythagorean Theorem is Geometry, not Algebra. The ancient Greeks were great geometers but not so great at algebra (IIRC, once again). Actually, an algebraic proof of this theorem would not (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PythagoreanTheorem.html) have been accepted by Greek mathematicians.

[dtilque]

Originally posted by raygirvan
the Greeks knew such relations as Pythagoras Theorem and had techniques for (e.g.) root-finding, but they handled them via geometrical constructions, without algebraic notation.
Well, the Muslims didn't have algebraic notation either. That developed later in Europe.

[Daoloth]

This (http://cyberistan.org/islamic/) site lists a plethora of notable Islamic scientists towards the bottom. Al-Razi, a Persian medicine man and chemist, discovered both sulfuric acid and the use of alcohol for sterilization purposes. He also penned the first known description of smallpox and measles, among other ailments. Furthermore, he had a reputation of being a gifted musician. His medical works were the penultimate source of ailment and injury in the Islamic world and Middle Age Europe for centuries. On top of these accomplishments, Razi also wrote more than a dozen books on philosophy.

So, we have numerous Islamic and/or Arab contributions to the world, including algebra, the compass, the use of alcohol as sterlization, beautiful architecture, poetry, folklore, and some of the first true insights into chemistry, cartography and astronomy as a whole.

[martin_ibn_martin]

There are Ayas in the Qur'an forbidding the consumption of "Khamr", which I believe specifically referred to date wine, but was later expanded by The Prophet to include any substance which clouds the mind. The earlier injunctions against prayer while drunk were given at a time when prayer was only done two or three times daily. after prayer was commanded five times a day, the prohibition against all intoxicants came along.

As for the OP, I don't think there were any recent contributions, unless one counts the recent rise in converts since 9-11, (I do).
Islamic civilization contributed greatly to what we have now, then stagnated for a myriad of reasons. Our Golden Age has passed, but nothing says that it won't come again. As Islam is becoming less entwined with it's traditional cultures and more modern, reasonable muslims become significant, we will take our place once again, inshAllah.

Don't forget Hygeine, particularly among doctors:D

Martin

[Kalt]

Anything in the last 150 years?

[Monty]

dtilque: Europe's algebraic notation developed from the Muslims' usage.

[Marley23]

Anything in the last 150 years?
Science has become much more secular in the last few centuries, and religion is less dominant in general. What has any religion contributed on this scale in the last 150 years?

[Johanna]

al-Khwarizmi was an Iranian (as his name indicates), but he wrote in Arabic, as Arabic was the international language of learning all over the Islamic world in those days.

They may not have used algebraic notation as it exists today, but they did begin developing it at that time. al-Khwarizmi used the Arabic letter shîn to represent the unknown quantity. It was an abbreviation for the Arabic word shay’, meaning 'a thing, something'.

When the medieval European translators in Toledo translated al-Khwarizmi's algebra into Latin, they used the letter x where the Arabic text had used shîn. The reason being that in medieval Spanish, the letter x was used to write the "sh" sound (which isn't found in modern Spanish).

Alcohol is from the same Arabic word as kohl, the fine powder of antimony used as eyeliner. (This word, and the word for alchemy, use the Arabic letter for k, not q. They are two different letters in Arabic. It's true that too often the Arabic q has been mistransliterated as "k", for example Qur’an spelled "Koran"— but when you take the real Arabic k and write "q" for it, that's what linguists call "hypercorrection." Just the other day I was reading Pico Iyer's novel Abandon, about Sufism, and he hypercorrected the name of the Ka‘bah by writing "Qa'ba." Wrong, Pico.)

[Kalt]

Originally posted by Marley23
Science has become much more secular in the last few centuries, and religion is less dominant in general. What has any religion contributed on this scale in the last 150 years?

Oh I thought we were talking about individuals (muslims) as compared to the religion (islam) as a whole. No "religion" as a whole has ever contributed anything to mankind other than social control.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally posted by Kalt
Anything in the last 150 years?

Some Nobel Prize winners, including some in chemistry and medicine. A bunch of authors. Not that he was a particularly great Muslim, but Gamal Nasser was one of the leading spokesmen of the non-aligned movement, which was politically influential as a alternative to cold war politics, so there are a few people.

[JillGat]

What about contributions by Muslim females? Oh wait, that's against the law.

[Johanna]

JillGat, was that sarcasm? (Why doesn't the board have a sarcasm smiley?) Muslim women are commanded to seek knowledge just the same as men are. The Prophet said: "Seeking knowledge is an obligation on every Muslim, male and female."

I was also going to write about the issue of the Arabic numerals that aren't originally Arabic but came from India. It's only the Europeans that called them "Arabic" numerals. The Arabs themselves acknowledge that they got them from India. The Arabic name for what we call Arabic numerals is al-arqâm al-Hindîyah, which means 'the Indian numerals'.

[JillGat]

Jomo, are you saying that women in Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia have the same rights as men? That's not what I heard. Not all countries with Muslim populations repress women, I know. But I had heard that in Saudi Arabia - and in some other Middle Eastern countries - women were not allowed to drive, to enter certain public buildings unescorted, to travel without permission from a male relative, etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So yes, it was sarcasm.

[Johanna]

JillGat, you may be a victim of the "news headlines capture all the public attention, obscuring the important background information that doesn't fit into sound bites" syndrome.

Saudi Arabian laws restricting women are regarded around the rest of the Muslim world as unjustifiable.

But the actual basis for women's equality in Islam, found in the original sources (see my quote above for one example) tends to get ignored in the media sound bites. This is why we have the Straight Dope.

Saudi Arabia is controlled by Wahhabis, which mainstream thinkers in Islam have regarded as a deviant sect ever since it first arose over two centuries ago. The Ottoman Empire considered it a dangerous and pernicious heresy. Ask the British and Uncle Sam why they supported Wahhabis to the detriment of the traditional mainstream moderate interpretations of Islam.

[bugg]

Originally posted by JillGat
Jomo, are you saying that women in Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia have the same rights as men? That's not what I heard. Not all countries with Muslim populations repress women, I know. But I had heard that in Saudi Arabia - and in some other Middle Eastern countries - women were not allowed to drive, to enter certain public buildings unescorted, to travel without permission from a male relative, etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So yes, it was sarcasm.

People are so quick to be bitter and unforgiving against an entire culture because of "what I heard." Well, I hear some stuff too, and not just from Fox News. I have a friend who is Canadian by birth and citizenship, with Pakistani and Indian parents, Muslim, homosexual, and was raised in Saudi Arabia. He'll tell you that the situation in Saudi Arabia is certainly not great, but that it's nowhere near as bad as it's portrayed to Joe Sixpack on Fox News. He'll also quickly tell you about how people need to have the right to choose their own government. The royal family that runs the country is not a popular government but rather a government that would have probably been overthrown long ago had it not been for US backing.

It's a mistake to view the oppression of Saudi women as oppresson by Muslims. It's oppression by Christians, through proxy.

If you'd like to continue down this road, may I suggest GD?

[astorian]

Before anyone (like Jill) gets huffy about the status of women in "Moslem countries" (as if they were a bloc, rather than a collection of very different nations), it's worth noting that Pakistan, an overwhelmingly Moslem land, has elected a woman as head of state.

Has the U.S. done this yet? Have MOST Western nations?

[Tamerlane]

JillGat: Your comments are not entirely without merit. Like all the Judeo-Christian religion, Islam retains a certain amount of patriarchal baggage, despite what can probably be described as a genuinely enlightened attitude of Muhammed to the sexes for his time ( a very important qualifier of course - if we indulge in a bit of pop psychology, we might conclude Muhammed's relatively progressive attitudes as being heavily influenced by his first wife, a women 15 years his senior who owned her own merchant business and who took on her soon-to-be husband as a junior partner ). In areas where this is taken to a cultural extreme, i.e. recent Arabia and Afghanistan, we do see Islam taking on cultural accretions that are highly restrictive. Wahhabism and the Deobandism of the Taliban are both in fact exceptional examples of this.

However Jomo Mojo's rebuttal is equally valid. For example in classical times a surprising amount of Islamic scholarship was done by female scholars, who held symposia and gave lectures on this material to rapt audiences of both sexes. Check out this article on "Women Scholars of the Hadith" :
http://www.jannah.org/sisters/womenhadith.html

Indeed the origins of Sufism are often laid ( partially, at least ) at the feet of freed slave and scholar named Rabi'a. Here's a link:
http://www.tl.infi.net/~ddisse/rabia.html

Since women can both inherit and run businesses under Islamic law, they likely had a rather more significant, or at least direct, impact on Islamic economies than women in corresponding Christian nations up until the early modern period ( eventually of course the relative level of freedom first equalized, then in many areas reversed, at least vis-a-vis the developed west )

Or we have the wealthy 11th century Cordoban princess and independent poetess Walladah al-Mustakfi ( an example of class and wealth buying freedom from male control, but such was pretty universally the case in the pre-modern and especially 11th century world everywhere ). Check out notable women of the year 1000: http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/notables.html

The situation has not been so enlightened in the 20th century, though certainly there have been landmark Muslim feminists that have struggled for more equality, like Huda Shaarawi in Egypt and Nazira Zain al-Din in Lebanon ( both in the early 20th century ).

Or, for the other side of the coin :), there are women like Zaynab al-Ghazali, a prominent female leader in the Egypt's fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood ( which shows the diversity of non-Wahhabi fundamentalism. To quote:

Zaynab al-Ghazali believes that Islam permits women to take an active part in public life, to hold jobs, enter politics and express their opinion. She believes Islam permits them to own property, do business and be anything they wish to be in the service on an Islamic society. Yet she believes that a Muslim woman's first duty is to be a mother and a wife, and that no other activity should interfere with this role of hers, for this should have priority over everything else. If she has free time to participate in public life after her first duty is fulfilled, she may do so because Islam does not forbid her.

So, no, it isn't entirely one-sided. Saudi Arabia and Taliban Afghanistan really and truly are very extreme aberrations ( though again, in practical terms women's rights in most Muslim countries today need a heck of a lot of work ).

-Tamerlane

[MaryEFoo]

Recognizable Arabic, Muslim, Pakistani, etc, names appear frequently in the news, in American positions such as doctors, engineers, professors, and higher administrative positions such as spokesman for the Center for Disease Control, etc etc.

In Silicon Valley you see the names as heads of departments in tech companies and as software engineers, etc, and you also see the names as founders and owners of tech companies, ie as entrepreneurs. (A couple of years ago you could have said "successful entrepreneurs" but lately their luck has probably been no better than any other dot-coms'.) However there were undoubtably Muslim contributions to the creation of the Internet and other software and hardware advances.

[Marley23]

This is some very interesting stuff. I gotta say, one of my favorite things about this place is that sometimes, fascinating and obscure information pops up- even from sharp disputes. :)

[GoldenGael]

A quote from Kalt:

Oh I thought we were talking about individuals (muslims) as compared to the religion (islam) as a whole. No "religion" as a whole has ever contributed anything to mankind other than social control.

Absolutely correct, with billions of examples -- please don't ask me for a cite.

Furthermore, most in this thread have correctly answered it in the correct spirit -- there have been numerous contributions from people who happen to be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, what have you.

These contributions had nothing to do with the contributor's religion (except, perhaps, in some tangential fashion in literature or philosophy), and, in fact, were made in spite of and in the face of the contributor's religion.

[jjimm]

Ice cream (sherbet) came from Arabia. Don't know if it was pre- or post-Islam.

[Bibliovore]

Originally posted by GoldenGael

These contributions had nothing to do with the contributor's religion (except, perhaps, in some tangential fashion in literature or philosophy), and, in fact, were made in spite of and in the face of the contributor's religion. [/B]


On what do you base this assertion? Are you suggesting that Islam discourages scientific progress and endeavor? Or are you perhaps referring to all religions?

[Johanna]

I read history the other way around—that the religion of Islam, because of its injunctions to study the world and seek knowledge, directly stimulated a civilization that worked to advance science. Geographically, early Islamic civilization was well situated to take in the heritage of ancient Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, and Indian science, synthesize all these, and from there make contributions of its own.

[GoldenGael]

Back to Bibliovore (love that name, by the way):

No, I am not singling out Islam here. All religions, in my opinion, manage to be in the way of progress in divers manners both overt and covert.

[JillGat]

Just for the record Bugg and Jomo, before you make assumptions about me (like I make assumptions about Saudi Arabia), I live in a country with a sizable Muslim population and have spent time in Malaysia, which is predominantly Muslim. I know that all Muslim countries and sects are not the same.

Even if you go beyond "sound bytes," you have to agree that what I said about Saudi Arabia's women is true. They are not allowed to travel without the permission of a male relative or guardian, etc. Women are second class citizens in many parts of the world. I think it is fair to say that women, as a general rule, are even more oppressed in countries ruled by religious Muslims of any sect. Even if the government supports the education and other rights for women, get away from the big city in some Muslim countries and you will find cultural support for treatment of women that would be appalling and indefensible in most of the enlightened world.

I agree that the Western press loves to play up stories of women being stoned to death for fraternizing with males who are non-relatives or wearing the wrong kind of clothes. But can you deny that these things happen in certain countries in the Middle East? I know that, at least in enlightened circles in US/European/Western culture it is offensive to make bigoted generalizations about other cultural/religious groups. But supporting human rights is also part of our culture. Now go to any predominantly Muslim country in the Middle East and ask them what they think of me and my culture. I could go on, comparing views and laws re. human rights and freedom in the US vs Afghanistan/Saudi Arabia/Pakistan/ but I've already moved this into a debate. So I will end here and let you get back to the topic of the thread: major contributions by Muslims in the world.

[RickJay]

Those of us who like astronomy are forever using Arabic contributions to that field - most named stars have Arabic names. (That's why so many stars start with AL.)

JillGat, your points about Arabic countries are valid, but they don't appear to have anything to do with the OP. If I asked you what America contributed to the world since independence, and when you answered I said, "Well, yeah, except for black Americans, who you've treated like shit," how would that invalidate the contributions of Americans? You can't deny blacks have been treated like shit over the course of U.S. history. Does that mean we can't have a discussion of American contributions to the world of science and art?

[JillGat]

Of course, [b]RickJay[/]. I readily admit I highjacked the thread when I noticed the examples of Muslim contributors were all males and it occurred to me that half the population is female, which got me thinking and that always sends me off on a tangent. This is why I suggested we get back to the topic at hand. There have actually been a few female Muslim authors publishing acclaimed books recently. Most of em, of course, have moved away from their homelands. I'll see what I can find.

[Billdo]

I recently read a fascinating book, What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195144201/qid=1053705213/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/002-1803342-4719200?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Bernard Lewis.

It examines how the Arab, Turkish and Persian Muslim world, ascendent from about the eighth through fifteenth centuries, gradually lost leadership in trade, technology, military affairs, social development and other areas to Christian Europe. It looks at view of much of the Ottoman Empire during that time that Europe was a heathen backwater that did not have ideas worth investigating or incorporating. As such, much of the development during and after the European Renaissance was not absorbed into the Muslim world. Later, European colonialism and post-colonial monarchies and limited oil-based economics have restricted the development of much of the Muslim world.

[Sofa King]

Perhaps you've heard of the electroweak theory? Dr. Abdus Salam (http://www.ictp.trieste.it/ProfSalam/) of Pakistan was awarded the 1979 Nobel Prize for Physics for his contribution to the mathematical unification of those two forces.

[Johanna]

Fatima Mernissi, the leading Islamic feminist in the world, is committed to staying in her home country of Morocco and working with the people there to develop their liberal/progressive consciousness. Dr. Mernissi is renowned for having done her homework, researching the original sources of the religion of Islam and bringing to light a wealth of evidence to support women's equality as essential to the religion. No one should make categorical statements about the status of women in Islam without first reading Mernissi's works.

Also, as far as religion affecting science goes, it isn't always a clear-cut issue of black and white. The development of science in Europe has been attributed, in part, to the doctrine of the Christian religion that the universe is orderly and knowable.

When I first read this, I went huh??? you're got to be pulling my leg. But the more I thought about it, I came to understand that there is a serious argument being made here. Even though science and the Church came to a parting of the ways in the 17th century, it was the development of Christian philosophy in the Middle Ages that provided an intellectual underpinning that led to the minds of Christendom being equipped to investigate nature. systematically.

Also, I advise great caution about over-generalizing the relations of science and religion, especially in a non-Christian civilization. We have been brought up on the story of Galileo and his struggle with the Church, and unless we consciously draw back from our own cultural context, we are in danger of letting that unconsciously color our understanding of other civilizations, which would be an error. Galileo's problems were specific to a certain locality (Western Europe) and historical period (the Counter-Reformation).

The development of science in Islamic civilization, at least for the first 900 years or so, was helped rather than hindered by the doctrines of the religion of Islam. The writings of Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr, especially Science and Civilization in Islam and An Illustrated History of Islamic Science, shed much light on exactly this causality.

[ElJeffe]

paperbackwriter:

I never meant to imply that people in Arab nations aren't writing scientific papers, or doing any research. However, when you look at the most important developments of the past several hundred years - the development of electronics, space exploration, quantum mechanics, relativity - the really big things that make everybody's lists of "Top Contributions to Society of the Past 100 Years" - it seems the contributions coming from the Middle East are pretty few and far between. That's not to say they make no contributions, but as compared to their western colleagues, they seem to be lagging pretty far behind.


Jeff

[JillGat]

I've skimmed through the Koran and it makes very clear the Islamic rule that men are the leaders and women must obey them or face "discipline." And this obedience and discipline is described in detail in a number of places in the holy book in ways I can't imagine being interpreted in a feminist way. Unless there are Muslims that don't follow the Koran? Anyway, I will look for work by Fatima Mernissi. Thank you, Jomo. And to get back on topic, it sounds like we should add her to the list of Muslims who are contributing to the betterment of the world.

[Marley23]

I've skimmed through the Koran and it makes very clear the Islamic rule that men are the leaders and women must obey them or face "discipline." And this obedience and discipline is described in detail in a number of places in the holy book in ways I can't imagine being interpreted in a feminist way.
You'll find all the same junk in the Bible, but you're not levelling these kinds of charges against Christianity and Judaism. If you're religious, or so inclined, do some searching in there for you. The King James Bible is online at www.bartleby.com - look down the pull-bar thing.
I like 1 Corinthians 14, 34 - 35:
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

[Cervaise]

Originally posted by GoldenGael
No, I am not singling out Islam here. All religions, in my opinion, manage to be in the way of progress in divers manners both overt and covert. I'm not at all saying I disagree, but given that this is GQ, you might want to rein in the opinionating a tad.

[sqweels]

Ice cream (sherbet) came from Arabia. Don't know if it was pre- or post-Islam.

How the heck did they keep it cold?

[Cervaise]

Well, this was before Velikovsky's comet came by, so Egypt was like Siberia. Or something.

[clairobscur]

Originally posted by sqweels
How the heck did they keep it cold?



Until recent times, people would gather ice on mountains, for instance, or IIRC would just keep ice gathered during winter as long as possible (they would keep it underground, where the temperature is quite low and stable). Then, they would sell the ice to whoever needed it. That would include people making sorbets.

[istara]

jillgat - firstly, as pointed out, the "male-in-charge" stuff is pervasive in many religions, including Christianity.

Secondly, even if you do subscribe to that belief, it does not necessarily mean the woman cannot work, be educated, run a business, etc.

Even in Saudi there are many powerful and important businesswomen. Yes - there are many subjugated women too. But it's both inaccurate and unfair to use Saudi as the yardstick for Islam. Saudi is extreme, it is an aberration.

Here in the UAE, the only thing holding women back is social and family culture. Not the government. The goverment actively wants women to be educated AND work. It is individual families (some, not all of them) that prevent women from working.

[Monty]

istara: And the situation you describe is different in each of the Emirates of the UAE.

[bugg]

JillGat, how about a response to the rather provocative statement I made that I'm surprised nobody has responded to?

The Saudi government is not what the people of Saudi Arabia would have chosen, therefore you cannot count what they do to their people as Muslim self-oppression. It's plain old regular oppression, because an unpopular government needs to oppress its people to remain in power. And who supports/funds/backs this? The United States of America. Our military bases weren't there for nothing.

If you want to say that it is in the nature of Muslims to oppress women because of their religion, then find me a group of Muslims who have chosen their own government that oppresses women. There goes the Taliban and Saudi Arabia, which are(were) the two most widely regarded as the worst offenders. I'll still disaqree with you that the cause of the oppression is not religion (treatment of Arab women improved greatly in Arab culture when the Arabs with Islam), but at least your argument will make sense.

[JillGat]

A number of responses have come to my mind re. the point about the Bible and Christianity, about governments vs cultures, etc., but as others have pointed out, that is not the point of this thread in GQ. So I will resist the temptation to keep the debate going about whether Muslims/followers of the Koran instigate worse treatment of women and commit more human rights violations than other religions/cultures do. I have a feeling it would never end, anyway.

[sickboy51]

I guess everybody will recognize these symbols: 1 2 3 4 5 ... yes, this notation fo numbers was invented by the muslims.

[JillGat]

Oh, and Pakistan! I wanted to talk about Pakistan (since Saudi Arabia isn't an acceptable example, apparently). Someone pointed out that there is a woman leader in Pakistan as "proof" of how enlightened they are about gender issues there. Oh man.... Pakistan with the honor killings and all the rest.... Stop me before I post again! Please! C'mon, people, find more examples of modern contributions made by Muslims.

[Marley23]

Someone pointed out that there is a woman leader in Pakistan as "proof" of how enlightened they are about gender issues there. . . . C'mon, people, find more examples of modern contributions made by Muslims.
Those two things aren't really related. Pakistan is ass-backward in any number of ways, but they still elected a female leader, which the United States has yet to do, and will probably not do for quite some time. The nation's other failings don't mean Pakistan, or Muslims in general, have made no contributions to the modern world.

[JillGat]

I realize this, Marley. I am trying to help stop the highjack debate I started about women's rights in the Middle East and get back to the topic at hand, Muslim contributions to the US and the world.

[Johanna]

Originally posted by sickboy51
I guess everybody will recognize these symbols: 1 2 3 4 5 ... yes, this notation fo numbers was invented by the muslims. You must have missed the posts above where this was refuted.Originally posted by Jomo Mojo
It's only the Europeans that called them "Arabic" numerals. The Arabs themselves acknowledge that they got them from India. The Arabic name for what we call Arabic numerals is al-arqâm al-Hindîyah, which means 'the Indian numerals'. Advice about using the Straight Dope Message Board: it's considered advisable to read all the other posts first, before you add a post.

JillGat, everyone here will agree with you that there are serious problems with women's rights in certain parts of the Muslim world. It was your sarcastic remark that women's contributions to Islamic civilization are "illegal" that brought on a reaction, just because it's demonstrably counterfactual and this is GQ, after all. GQ, to my understanding, is for "just the facts, ma'am." Or, in Arabic, "al-waqâ’i‘ faqat, yâ sayyidah." OK, you're right, this hijack has outlived its purpose. We would welcome a thread of its own in GD.

[eburacum45]

Without the astronomers of Islam we would be without the beautiful names which they gave to the stars;
Algol, Aldebaran, Alnitak, Alniram, Arkab, Altair, Betelguese, Caph, Deneb, Denebola, Dubhe, Fomalhaut, Mizar, Rigel, Sadelmelik, Saiph, Zubenelgenubi...

The rest of the world was in a dark age while only the Muslim scientists, mathematicians and astronomers carried the torch of science and investigation on from the Greeks.
__________________
SF worldbuilding at
http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html

[Zenster]

I seem to recall an Islamic prohibition on lending money for profit. (Would someone please provide a cite on this?)

If this is indeed so, then there would be a strong case for the Muslim countries falling victim to the same issues that retarded Southern Europe's industrial and scientific progress. England's Protestant acceptance of capital investment enabled Lloyd's of London and many other group venture houses to reap gigantic profits from the spice and tea trades. Catholic edicts against usury heavily restrained this sort of financial resource development.

Additionally, lack of religious objection to human vivisection (is there an Islamic ban on this as well?) accelerated Northern European medical advances in ways that more conservative Southern Europe would not see until the restraining yoke of Papal bans on these two practices was thrown off. In view of Islam's prohibition on portrayal of human figures in art, it stands to reason that vivisection could also be taboo. Perhaps Tamerlane or another SDMB Muslim scholar could clarify on this topic.

I suspect that Theocratic rule in the Middle East tended to inhibit both venture capitalism and some avenues of scientific inquiry in ways that obstructed technological and industrial development. This may serve to explain the more recent dearth of scientific and technical contributions from the region.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by Jomo Mojo
The Arabs themselves acknowledge that they got them from India. The Arabic name for what we call Arabic numerals is al-arqâm al-Hindîyah, which means 'the Indian numerals'.

Somewhat pedantic point, but I should point out that regretably the man on the street isn't generally aware that both sets of numbers are of Indian origin. Some even bizarrely think the set the West adopted are our own invention and are sadly surprised when I tell them otherwise.

Re Zenster's q: yes there was a generalize prohibition on lending for profit. While many mainstream people now accept that really should be interpreted as usury, a large body of Muslims don't like interest.

I am unaware of any Islamic ban on vivesection, never read anything to that point. Perhaps something of a barrier was an aversion to pictorial portayals in written works. That broke down over time, but it might have been something of a barrier. In any case, Islamic medicine was for a very long time rather more advanced than anything in Europe, and rather more rational (although perhaps this is damning with faint praise considering the standards.

Let me once more correct the aprehension that the Muslim world was characterized by theocracy. Historically it was not. I posted a long excerpt from Lapidus on this in the pit, I refer you to that. Search Lapidus in the Pit.

In large part I see the stagnation of the Islamic world as deriving from twin issues of environment, bad luck in Euros finding a way to bleed their main economic routes, a certain arrogance and blindness towards the end of its 'Golden Age' as well as perhaps certain institutional issues.

[Johanna]

Originally posted by Collounsbury
the man on the street isn't generally aware that both sets of numbers are of Indian origin. Some even bizarrely think the set the West adopted are our own invention and are sadly surprised when I tell them otherwise.The forms of Arabic numerals used in Europe originated in Maghribi script. In Morocco they're still used wherever Maghribi script survives (unfortunately this beautiful old script is dying out except as decoration). I have seen handwritten books from Morocco using the same forms of Arabic numerals that Europeans use. That's because they were used in Morocco before the Europeans ever heard of them.

Coll, the proverbial man in the street may imagine all sorts of bizarre errors—a majority of Americans polled thought that Saddam was involved in 9/11—but the educated Arabs are quite aware that their numerals are from al-Hind.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by Jomo Mojo .
The forms of Arabic numerals used in Europe originated in Maghribi script. In Morocco they're still used wherever Maghribi script survives (unfortunately this beautiful old script is dying out except as decoration). I have seen handwritten books from Morocco using the same forms of Arabic numerals that Europeans use. That's because they were used in Morocco before the Europeans ever heard of them.


Quite right, and I have been driven into.... one of my typical outbursts against ignorance replying to Moroccans who believe that the French imposed the numbers. Frankly that irritated me to no end.

Of note, and you may know this, Maghrebi style script is also used in West Africa.


Coll, the proverbial man in the street may imagine all sorts of bizarre errors—a majority of Americans polled thought that Saddam was involved in 9/11—but the educated Arabs are quite aware that their numerals are from al-Hind.

Very true, I was merely interjected that pedantic aside for the average reader who might then speak to your avg. Mohammed and hear a contradictory story.

[refusal]

Naguib Mahfouz from Cairo won the Nobel Prize for literature in 1988. The Pakistan-born author Salman Rushdie has wavered in his faith, but is highly acclaimed. There is a long tradition of poetry in the Islamic nations. Even Walt Disney owes them a great debt: the stories of the Arabian Nights were collected and written down by Muslims, although some originated in India (source: the introduction to my Oxford World's Classics Arabian Nights).

Other notable Muslims include many American sportsmen, such as Muhammad Ali. And Malcolm X and other black Muslims made a sizeable (if not always welcome) contribution to the American Civil Rights movement.

(On the other hand, it is true that science and learning declined in the Middle East following around 1500 AD, due partly to new trade routes from Europe round the Cape of Good Hope which bypassed the region, partly because of the stultifying rule of the Ottoman Empire, and later the absence of the natural resources - coal, water, iron ore - which brought about the Industrial Revolution in northern Europe.)

[Earthling]

Zaha (http://www.iit.edu/departments/pr/arch.comp/hadid.html) Hadid (http://www.arcspace.com/architects/hadid/bio.htm) is a Baghdad-born architect (now based in London) who has won all sorts of awards. Her biographies don't mention religion, though one would presume that at least she was born into a Muslim family.

[bizzwire]

Capt. Amazing:


Some Nobel Prize winners, including some in chemistry and medicine.

A search of laureates (http://www.almaz.com/nobel/)
turned up Zewail ('99) who was Egyptian-born, but apparently did his work and education in the states. Granted, the cite does not list the religion of the winners, so I had to go with last names. To whom were you referring to?

[Futile Gesture]

Originally posted by ElJeffe
However, when you look at the most important developments of the past several hundred years - the development of electronics, space exploration, quantum mechanics, relativity - the really big things that make everybody's lists of "Top Contributions to Society of the Past 100 Years" - it seems the contributions coming from the Middle East are pretty few and far between.
Unfortunately there is no such thing as "everybody's lists of "Top Contributions to Society of the Past 100 Years" ". Remember, all generalisations are bad. First you have to define whose society you are talking about.

You and I may be broadly in agreement on what should be in the list, but we are both undeniably biased by our similar background society. It could also be argued that the contributions in our lists have a lot more to do with economic status than religion.

So the OP is flawed. It would be better phrased "Muslim Contributions to the US and the rest of the non-Muslum World that the US and the non-Muslim World values according to US and non-Muslim value systems." But maybe that wouldn't fit. :)