Harlan Ellison, skewered at last.

[Ben]

I realize that this article (http://www.tcj.com/2_archives/e_groth0189.html) is old (1989,) but it's new to me, and besides, now it's on the web.

It's a scathing critique of an article Ellison wrote for _Playboy_ on comic books, but an author who has clearly had just about enough of Ellison's crap. About 90% of the way through the article, I thought to myself, "You know something? This guy has successfully articulated a lot of the things that really bother me about Ellison." Then, when I finished the article, I thought "okay- *now* he's articulated *everything* about Ellision that ticks me off."

A few thoughts:

1.) Ellison's attitude towards _The Comics Journal_ is remarkably like his attitude towards _Star Trek._ I remember the intros he wrote to the Dr. Who novels that were released in the U.S. He made a big point of saying that Star Trek was utter shit (specifically, it will "turn your brains into a puree of bat guano,") compared to the brilliance of Dr. Who. And yet... if Star Trek is so bad, why did he write for it? Poor, poor Harlan. Unable to pay the bills, he must slave away on the lowest rung of the writing ladder: Star Trek. One step above the porno paperback industry, he must labor aside other wretched, hopeless souls like Robert Bloch and David Gerrold who are unable to find any redeeming work. The reality of the matter, of course, is that Ellison thought Trek was great- until he had a personal falling-out with Roddenberry. Then he did the same thing to TCJ- he gave it his highest praise (particularly Ellisonian praise, describing TCJ as being in the finest muckraking tradition,) but after he got involved in a personal dispute, he decided that it was no better than _the National Enquirer._

2.) I wonder what would happen if Ellison's attitude towards TV and comics were applied to science fiction? Given his bizarre declarations that anyone using the term "sci-fi" is a drooling ignoramous who thinks that SF is all Buck Rogers stuff, how do you think he would react to someone who enthusiastically declared Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, and _ID4_ to be the best SF ever produced, just as Ellison declares _The Incredible Hulk_ and "The Banana Splits" to be works of genius?

[Mr. Blue Sky]

He's always struck me as a pompous jerkoff. But, that's just me.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I think Ellison is a brilliant writer but he can also be insufferably condescending.

[Miller]

Thank God he can write so well, eh? As far as I'm concerned, the guy who wrote The Deathbird pretty much has a universal pass to be as much of a jerk as he wants, short of felony assault. I mean, shit, it's not like I have to hang out with guy in real life or anything.

[elucidator]

Instrumental in the creation and publications of Dangerous Visions. If you unfamiliar with this towering acheivement, you are beneath conversation, science fiction wise. Much can be forgiven. And if you think he's an insufferable asshole, you never saw Isaac Asimov. Lord!

[RexDart]

What is TCJ?

And if we're gonna pit authors now, let's pit Robert Heinlein (who I otherwise like) for writing the single worst sci-fi novel of all time. I'd do it, but surely nobody actually made it through all ~300 pages of that ugly, ugly crap trying to stumble through that terrible nonsense language every other page.

As for Ellison, anyone who bashes Star Trek as being unintellectual....that's just plain wrong. Trek has always used the sci-fi genre to explore contemporary issues with the freedom that advanced technologies give their plots. Sometimes they succeeded, sometimes they didn't, but they were more intellectual than alot of other sci-fi. That goes for both classic Trek and TNG.

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally posted by Miller
As far as I'm concerned, the guy who wrote The Deathbird pretty much has a universal pass to be as much of a jerk as he wants, short of felony assault.

Geez, and here I was saying pretty much the same thing about Richard Wagner over in Cafe Society.

Luci: I know Ellison (edited one of his books), and I had a passing acquaintance with Asimov while he still trod this earth. I know Harl is an insufferable asshole, but I always thought Isaac had a certain self-mocking thing going that diffused the IA quotient. Was I wrong?

(Actually, neither of these guys' failings bugged me half as much as meeting Ray Bradbury and finding out he is Ed Meese in horn-rims.)

[friedo]

Indeed. People seem to forget that Star Trek was never about science. It was an excuse to put interesting characters in interesting situations. I mean, where else can you write about what happens to an omnipotent childlike god who gets his powers taken away? Or a sentient machine having a conversation with its creator? Or what it would be like to live an entire lifetime in a short dream?

Of course, then they end up doing a Lwaxana episode and fuck up the groove, but that's life.

[elucidator]

Originally posted by Ukulele Ike
Luci: I know Ellison ...(...finding out he is Ed Meese in horn-rims.)


Maybe, maybe not. Did you by chance see Asimov when he was on Dick Cavett, flogging his book, the Sensous Dirty Old Man? But what the hell, read every word from years 9 to 14, so sure, give him a pass. I'm easy.

But shit! Dangerous Visions and Ursula LeGuinn and early Larry Niven and Stand on Zanzibar and Phillip Jose Farmer all about the same time frame...

And Star Trek is science fiction!? My soul cringes and shrivels like a worm on a griddle.

[Scylla]

elucidator:

Not too mention [i]Again Dangerous Visions[/ii] which has my second favorite Vonnegut story in it. "The Big Space Fuck"

Famer, Niven, Zanzibar, damn man for a cheesy liberal you have impeccable sci-fi taste.

Of course you also love Zelazny's work, I'm sure, as well as Varley.

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by Ben
He made a big point of saying that Star Trek was utter shit (specifically, it will "turn your brains into a puree of bat guano,") compared to the brilliance of Dr. Who.

You can't blame him for speaking the truth here. :D

[norinew]

Insufferable asshole? I'm fairly certain he is. However, as Miller pointed out, I don't have to go out drinking with him or anything. And many of his short stories have kept me good company on lonely nights when hubby was working out of town. . .Oh, what the hell. I forgive him (I'm sure he'll be comforted to hear that!:))

[Diogenes the Cynic]

You have to admit, the original Star Trek had an enormous cheese factor, and even TNG was rather sloppy with the actual science. I could go into all the technical implausibilities with the Star Trek universe, but that's been done before, many times. The fiction part of ST was great, but let's face it, the "science" was on a par with Lost in Space.

[jackelope]

Originally posted by RexDart
And if we're gonna pit authors now, let's pit Robert Heinlein (who I otherwise like) for writing the single worst sci-fi novel of all time. I'd do it, but surely nobody actually made it through all ~300 pages of that ugly, ugly crap trying to stumble through that terrible nonsense language every other page.OK, I'll bite: what Heinlein book are you talking about? I thought I had read all of them at the time he died, but I don't know what you mean here.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally posted by jackelope
OK, I'll bite: what Heinlein book are you talking about? I thought I had read all of them at the time he died, but I don't know what you mean here.
I think he's referring to "Number of the Beast". But that's based on which one of his novels I loath.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I assumed it was ASIASL which is rather overrated.

[Tuckerfan]

I like Harlan, even if he is a cranky bastard. In fact, that's why I like him! Yeah, he and I are both from Ohio, but, damnit, it's nice to hear someone who has something to say other than, "Gee, isn't it all wonderful?" One of the thing's that I hate about the SciFi Channel now, is that they've done away with Harlan's "I'm Pissed Off About 'X' This Week!" rants.

Oh, DtC, I assumed the Op'er was talking about The Moon is a Harsh Mistress which has the narrator speaking a bit of a hodge-podge language.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Ah, yes, Moon. I couldn't get past the second chapter. Not one of his better efforts.Time Enough for Love is my favorite Heinlein but even that can get a little pretentious in parts.

I also think Harlan does great rants. I think he'd be a great radio talk show host.

[Dragonblink]

I'll say this for Asimov, his monumental ego sure came across amusingly in print. :)

(Alas, I just had to go back and change that to the past tense. I have trouble sometimes remembering he's no longer with us ...)

[Testy]

Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan
I think he's referring to "Number of the Beast". But that's based on which one of his novels I loath.

Thank you for that, I thought it was just me. I was horrified to find that an author that I usually liked had written such absolute drivel.

Testy

[Tuckerfan]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Ah, yes, Moon. I couldn't get past the second chapter. Not one of his better efforts. Actually, I'd have to say that it's prolly one of RAH's better works, of course, you have to read the whole thing to get the point of it.

It does get better as it goes along, and RAH does drop that gibberish language as the book progresses. Oddly enough, the inspiration for the style of the novel is Joyce's Ulysses which RAH hated.

[rjung]

Hey, I liked Asimov's ego!

The man might have boasted of himself often, but there was always -- even in print -- an undercurrent that he wasn't taking any of it seriously, that he was just winking at the audience and mocking himself in the process.

And Ellison is definitely a major pain-in-the-arse, but there's no doubt he can write. And love him or hate him, but IMO he's always done a great job of articulating why he feels the way he does.

And The Comics Journal sucks, just for having Gary Groth at the helm.

[squeegee]

Scylla: Varley? Varley??? You have read the stuff (all 3) written post-Cirrocco Jones, right? Gaia was a fun romp, but otherwise it's been a disappointment.

[Tamerlane]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Ah, yes, Moon. I couldn't get past the second chapter. Not one of his better efforts.Time Enough for Love is my favorite Heinlein but even that can get a little pretentious in parts.

Gakk! Heathen! The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is Heinlein's best work. Time Enough for Love by comparison is so-so at best.

His actual worst IMHO, is Farnham's Freehold.

Scylla: You don't care for Varley or Zelazny?

Tsk. Tsk, I say. Anyone who like The Moon is a Harsh Mistress should have at least gotten half a smile from Steel Beach :).

This thread is positively crawling with heathen :p.

- Tamerlane ( who also thinks Ellison is an ass, but who loves his writing )

[squeegee]

His actual worst IMHO, is Farnham's Freehold.What?!? Compared to Number of the Beast?!?? FF at was at least OK until the bomb shelter got to The Future (and actually for a while after that); after that it went to hell. But at what point anywhere in NotB was it well written or engaging?

And I agree, TMIAHM is far and away the best Heinlein contribution. Great stuff.

[squeegee]

And I'm still hoping Vernor Vinge has one more great yarn in the making. Been quite a while.

[Dr. Rieux]

When I was 14 and 15, I admired Harlan--I wanted to be like him. But I've grown up and apparently he hasn't.
The last straw (well, the last two straws) for me was when he raised a fuss and stole some of the credit for The Terminator, then turned around and wrote a book calling Gene Roddenberry a credit-thief.
(Also, he never published The Last Dangerous Visions. What's up with that?)

[elucidator]

It was slated for publication, but the Scientologists stopped it.

Varley is cool, but is relentlessly, embarassingly feminist. Two bucks says he's married. Very married. Severely married.

Phil Farmer is Kilgore Trout. I don't care who Deep Throat was.

When I publish my Science Fiction History Calender, the day Larry Niven met Jerry Pournelle will be "Black Tuesday".

The Kzinti would kick the Klingon's ass, but all are but pawns of the Puppeteers.

And Panspermia is the only explanation for why DNA is so complex and the Universe so brief.

[SPOOFE]

I almost agreed with Ellison about Star Trek turning your brain into bat guano, until I noticed that the article was written in '89... LONG before [i]Voyager[/quote] was ever made. Maybe he can see into the future?

[Siege]

I just have to contribute my favorite skewering of Harlan Ellison. Apparently, at an SF con, he approached a tall, statuesque blonde and said to her, "What would you say to a little fuck?"

She looked down at him, and said, "Go away, little fuck."

That is in my book of best brushoff lines ever, especially given the crudity of the pickup line.

As for Heinlein, I did go off him when I was a teenager, and I forget whether Job or The Number of the Beast was the last straw. I don't like books written with a lot of dialect, but I just finished The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, and I though the dialect contributed to showing the different mindset on the moon, but that's a CS debate.

Back to the barbecuing! (Shish kebabs today?)
CJ

[RexDart]

Oh, so close, but thanks for taking the bait ;) I was talking of course about I Will Fear No Evil. The worst-written characters of all time meet the most gimmicky and uninteresting plot of all-time, and Heinlein's unreadable jargon-language is thrown in to top it off (all the scenes with the artist Joe are totally unreadable.) I defy you to finish reading that absolute pile of crap.

Stranger pissed me off with the totally ridiculous conversion of the character from actively anti-cannibalism to eating Mike at the end, and "grok" is a stupid word, but I otherwise liked it. Number of the Beast is totally unreadable, but it's the only way I know how to relate to the fictional character of my SDMB and real life buddy Tars Tarkas. Farnham's Freehold is great if not for the guy castrating himself, which is just icky. All these novels are gods compared to I Will Fear No Evil, which is so bad it should never have been published. In fact, it should have been banned everywhere for being so shitty, and all the manusrcipts should have been gathered together and placed in a long slit trench at the Rainbow Gathering for all the stoned hippies to shit upon.

Time Enough for Love is the best Heinlein IMHO, it's the only one I re-read with any regularity, and the mini-stories are enjoyable. Could have done without the incest, but a good book nonetheless. Lazarus Long is the ultimate libertarian character in sci-fi literature, just as Richard Rahl has become in fantasy literature.

And SPOOFE is right, Voyager was the brain-dead Trek. But I really thought all the series before that were interesting and explored intellectually challenging issues.

[tomndebb]

Ray Bradbury . . . is Ed Meese in horn-rims.) I'd be interested to see this comment expanded. (Just curious.)

[BrotherCadfael]

To be fair, I Will Fear No Evil was written just before Heinlein had major medical problems, and he couldn't revise and polish it up to his usual standards, which up to that time were pretty good. Fearing that he might never be able to finish it, the publisher rushed it into print.

It shows.

[The_Raven]

"Repent, Ellison!" said the pissed-off Ben...

[E-Sabbath]

Wait. Wait. We're all missing something important here.

Ike's MET both Ellison and Asimov. He is my new Short Duration Personal Savior for the week.

Poor Isaac. Killed before his time. (You know the story, right? AIDS, transfusion, doctors insisted he cover it up?) If he'd gone public, AIDS wouldn't have the stigmata it has now, I think.

Ellison... I dunno, sure he's a big ol' jerk, but he's _right_ most of the time. Except when he's wrong, but it's all his opinion and he's not disguising it. He cares.

Generally speaking, I approve of him more than, say, Piers Anthony.

Besides, we've _seen_ him do a SF TV show. And it turned out he put his money where his mouth was, and it pretty darn well worked.

[Tuckerfan]

E-Sabbath, which TV show is that? I know that Harlan's worked on a bunch, but I don't know of any that were specifically his.

[Ben]

Originally posted by E-Sabbath

Ellison... I dunno, sure he's a big ol' jerk, but he's _right_ most of the time. Except when he's wrong, but it's all his opinion and he's not disguising it. He cares.

Unless, of course, he's making up facts to suit his argument, as is claimed in the TCJ article.

Personally, I think Ellison is a great stylist, but I've never been convinced he had much to say. I feel like it's too easy to parody Ellison with a Frederick Brown-style one sentence short story:

"He howled with rage and despair as it delicately crawled into his ass."

I heard in interview with him once on Larry King, and I don't remember him saying anything at all beyond grousing about "Oh yeah, that guy? Total dick. And him? He's a dick too. And let me tell you about this guy..."


Generally speaking, I approve of him more than, say, Piers Anthony.

I approve of the average pedophile more than I approve of Piers Anthony. Hey, come to think of it...

[gobear]

I never got to meet the Good Doctor, but Harlan Ellison wil forever be in my good graces because of a note he sent me in 1988. He had written an article in Analog excoriating the bad behavior of fans at conventions, which brought the predicatable shitstorm in correspondence. I wrote to tell him that he was right and to keep on being a gadfly to keep people honest. He responded with a short note that has made me he a fan of his personality as well as of his works.

The Groth/Ellison mutual hatred has been a been a topic of fan gossip for years. Their enmity is personal and started because Harlan's comments in Comic Journal about a comic artist got Ellison, Groth, and TCJ sued. This site (http://www.sequentialellison.com/various4.html) has links to articles that detail the lawsuit and the feud.

And Farnham's Freehold is a tad less icky than The Number of the Beast, but in a quantity than can be measured only in nanoangstroms.

[E-Sabbath]

I didn't say it was _his_ show, Tuckerfan, but I've got to say that both the episodes of Star Trek and B5 that had him involved in them were darn good. I was referring mostly to B5, though.

[Tuckerfan]

Originally posted by E-Sabbath
I didn't say it was _his_ show, Tuckerfan, but I've got to say that both the episodes of Star Trek and B5 that had him involved in them were darn good. I was referring mostly to B5, though. Ah. If you're going to talk about shows which he had a hand in that were damned good (at least his contributions), then you've got to include his work on The Outer Limits and The Twilight Zone as well.

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally posted by tomndebb
I'd be interested to see this comment expanded. (Just curious.)

Not that I want to hijack....ah, well, what the hell.

I met Bradbury at a writer's conference in Palm Springs back in the early/mid-'90s. It was hosted by private-eye writer Arthur Lyons, and he roped in Dean Koonz and Ray Bradbury as attendees to up the attraction ante for the rubes. I was invited because I was Lyons' editor at the time.

I was all excited about meeting RB, being a fanboy since I was just a tyke. During lunch (we were seated a couple of chairs apart) I made a reference to Alley Oop, which caught RB's ear, and he scootched over and we started a conversation about old comic strips, which he loves and knows a hell of a lot about. We made a date to meet for drinks in the bar before the dinner that evening.

When I showed up he was already talking to a couple of fans, about...politics, of all things. Turns out he thought Reagan and his appointees had been the bee's knees, and that Bush Sr. had been far too liberal. He seemed to be particularly entranced by the "Just Say No" anti-drug campaign and AG Ed Meese's jousting with pornographers.

My hero-worship slipping dangerously, I asked him how a guy who had written Fahrenheit 451 and the "House of Usher" chapter in The Martian Chronicles could now be pro-censorship. He smirked that he had "gotten wiser over the years." So that's where I left it with Ray Bradbury.

Ah, heck. If I can enjoy listening to Parsifal, there's no reason I shouldn't re-read Dark Carnival.

[Mort Furd]

Originally posted by RexDart
Farnham's Freehold is great if not for the guy castrating himself, which is just icky.

You must have read a version that I've never seen. Memtok let himself be castrated, but it happened long before the events in the story and is referred to in passing. Duke was castrated on the orders of Ponce - and with Duke's mother's approval. Nobody else, and nobody that did it to himself.

Statements like that make me wonder if the people commenting on books have even read them.

[tomndebb]

Ike, that was as sad as watching Al Capp slide into senility.

Like you, I can still enjoy the original works.

[elucidator]

"Students Wildly Indignant About Nearly Everything" From populist hero to snide reactionary. Truly, a sad decline. Thank the Good Lord it didn't happen to Walt (Pogo) Kelly.

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally posted by tomndebb
as sad as watching Al Capp slide into senility.
Nice analogy. I wonder if Ray had gotten mugged or somethin'.

[Ben]

That's just bizarre- I remember a Reagan-era issue of _Omni_ on censorship in which Ray Bradbury said, "They'll take my pornography when they take it from my cold, dead hands." Maybe I'm misremembering this? I had always been struck by that article.

[Sir Rhosis]

I really believe that the public Ellison is more or less a role he plays. I've talked to two people who have met him at home with his wife , and they pretty much agree with what David Gerrold once said; something to the effect: "Harlan is really just a cuddly little Jewish guy with a potbelly who schlepps about his house with his wife."

Sir Rhosis

[Sir Rhosis]

Hmm, I hope I used the right Yiddish word. Schelp means to putter about, right?

Sir Rhosis

[Sir Rhosis]

Hmm, I hope I used the right Yiddish word. Schlep means to putter about, right?

Sir Rhosis

[tomndebb]

"Students Wildly Indignant About Nearly Everything" From populist hero to snide reactionary. Actually, I found S.W.I.N.E. and Hyannisidealsport to be amusing--initially. I have no problem with harpooning the Left on their foibles.

What was sad was running the same tired joke, week in and week out, for several years without actually needling the protestors on legitimate points.

(That and writing an essay after Kent State crying that "they were throwing rocks at our children.")

[tomndebb]

Schlep means to putter about, right?To schlep is to drag around a wearisome object or to fall behind because of one's burden.

Schlepping around the house with one's wife suggests (to me) hauling the groceries in and moving the wife's plants to be watered and, maybe, re-arranging the furniture.

[LurkMeister]

Briefly continuing the schlep hijack, there's a great t-shirt on this site (http://www.gamespy.com/comics/kovalic/dorkstorm/0010.html) (about two-thirds of the way down).
Straight from the pages of Aaron Williams' smash-hit comic book Nodwick! NPCs of the world, unite! Show your solidarity with all the other treasure-moving schmucks out there with a "Henchmen's Local #246" t-shirt! It features Aaron Williams' Nodwick, hefting the earth on his back. Our famous union standard, "Re-arranging the world, one schlep at a time," is proudly displayed beneath. So pick one up today and show Atlas who REALLY gets things moved!
I've had days like that.

[SPOOFE]

And SPOOFE is right, Voyager was the brain-dead Trek. But I really thought all the series before that were interesting and explored intellectually challenging issues.
If not "challenging", then at least "entertaining". TNG's bad episodes could be measured by seasons (it wasn't until season 2 or 3 that the episodes were consistently good), and DS9 was about 50/50 good/bad... the bad episodes being the "filler" episodes that weren't directly related to the overarching plot. Voyager's good episodes can be counted on one hand, unfortunately.

I would understand frustration with Star Trek... there's a lot of potential with the series, but Paramount has refused to take any significant risks with it for over a decade. They're pushing it into the gutter, in my opinion.

[moriah]

OK, all you disillusioned fanboys.

Any Sci-Fi bigwigs you met in person and can claim (or is reputed) to be a nice guy, polite and kind to all they meet, faithful to their family, progressive in politics... and all this without being wacky about it?

Or are all the SF kingpins creepy jerks?

Peace.
----------
Overheard at the Hugo nominating committee: "C'mon man, you gotta represent, like da capn of da Entahprahse."

[Wendell Wagner]

Siege writes:

> I just have to contribute my favorite skewering of Harlan
> Ellison. Apparently, at an SF con, he approached a tall,
> statuesque blonde and said to her, "What would you say to a
> little fuck?"
>
> She looked down at him, and said, "Go away, little fuck."

This is an apocryphal story. The way that I've heard the story told, the line that he said was "What would you say to a friendly little fuck?", to which the blonde replied, "Hello, friendly little fuck." Since this is an apocryphal story, I sometimes tell this story about myself. I'm shorter than Ellison, so it makes more sense being told about me.

Incidentally, many people who've met Ellison have stories about being lied to by him. Both the writers Charles Platt and Christopher Priest have written pamphlets about his dishonesty. I have my own story about being lied to by Ellison.

[j.c.]

E-Sabbath – can I be your shorter term personal hero for, oh, maybe an hour and a half? I never edited anyone (not so might-tee might-tee) but do have personal knowledge of both men (I’m lettin’ it all hang out). Surprise! The ass-grabber is not Ellison. In person, he seems perfectly lovely, albeit a bit anti-choice. Not a particularly defensible position, I feel, for one who has bragged about his zillions of conquests.

Love what you said about Harlan – “sure he's a big ol' jerk, but he's _right_ most of the time. Except when he's wrong, but it's all his opinion and he's not disguising it.”

Moriah – who are the sci-fi kingpins? I know a couple of writers, and they are lovely people, good to their wives and children, kind to puppies and kittens… but they are probably not kingpins.

Asimov is a creep from creepville. After my experience with him, I read something in People magazine about how awful it was when his wife had cancer and boo hoo hoo. Good lord. Fortunately, I was never much of a fan. And I’m willing to admit that he may not be from creepville. Perhaps years of fame and groupies made him what he was.

About that apocryphal story, FWIW, I would never say anything remotely funny to a guy if I want him to leave me alone.

[Michael Ellis]

I'm just surpised nobody's challenged my statement that Doctor Who is better than Star Trek.

[Tuckerfan]

Originally posted by j.c.
Asimov is a creep from creepville. After my experience with him, I read something in People magazine about how awful it was when his wife had cancer and boo hoo hoo. Good lord. Fortunately, I was never much of a fan. And I’m willing to admit that he may not be from creepville. Perhaps years of fame and groupies made him what he was. Evidently it ran in the family as according to the News of the Weird, his son was busted for kiddie porn. (Seems his PC died, and he took it to be repaired without wiping his harddrive first.)

[hazel-rah]

I'm just surpised nobody's challenged my statement that Doctor Who is better than Star Trek.

Doctor Who is better than Star Trek.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Originally posted by hazel-rah
Doctor Who is better than Star Trek.

Cite?

No, seriously. From what I've seen of the Doctor (on PBS), it seems to be on the level of a good episode of Lost in Space.

[elucidator]

There was a "good episode" of Lust in Space?

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by Mr. Blue Sky
No, seriously. From what I've seen of the Doctor (on PBS), it seems to be on the level of a good episode of Lost in Space.

Ah, but which ones did you see? Bad Dr. Who can be very bad.

[Michael Ellis]

Oh, and Lost in Space? Pfft!

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally posted by Michael Ellis
Oh, and Lost in Space? Pfft!
Hey now! Don't be dissin' Lost in Space (the TV show)! When I was 10, I really had the hots for Angela Cartwright (Penny Robinson)!

And Dr. Smith was my role model. I became a physician because of him! :D

[Terrifel]

Originally posted by Mr. Blue Sky
Cite?

No, seriously. From what I've seen of the Doctor (on PBS), it seems to be on the level of a good episode of Lost in Space. My God, man, you haven't even told us which Doctor! How can we diagnose the problem if you won't tell us the symptoms? If you were watching C. Baker or McCoy, then yes, you are a man of exceeding taste and sophistication. If you are disparaging the Pertwee or (mostly) T. Baker eras, though, then there's no help for you. Go back to your Far Out Space Nuts.

A helpful guide:

Hartnell: looks like John Quincy Adams

Troughton: Beatle hair, your Grandma's coat

Pertwee: dresses like Vincent Price

T. Baker: large scarf, teeth

Davison: cricket wear, celery*

C. Baker: "What the hell...?"

McCoy: Panama hat, pratfalls


* for detecting gases in the praxis range of the spectrum! What, you think those gases are good for you or something?!

[Terrifel]

Oh, and Harlan Ellison? Anyone who mails his publisher a dead gopher in order to make a point is alright in my book.

We could use more of this guy, he desperately needs cloning.

[Ben]

Originally posted by elucidator
There was a "good episode" of Lust in Space?

The early B/W episodes were good, just like with _The Man From U.N.C.L.E._

We're very lucky that the shadow of the Batman TV show didn't fall on Star Trek...

[Ben]

Originally posted by Terrifel
Oh, and Harlan Ellison? Anyone who mails his publisher a dead gopher in order to make a point is alright in my book.

We could use more of this guy, he desperately needs cloning.

I feel a bit sorry for the postal workers, personally.

The gopher story has always been part of my problem with Ellison. He seems so self-absorbed in his own moral stances, that sometimes they cease to have much value.

Think of the SF con in Colorado, soon after the anti-gay measure was passed. Rather than do what anyone else would do (namely, decline to attend,) Ellison attended, but made a big brouhaha about how he wouldn't contribute one cent to Colorado's economy. So he brought a mobile home full of food that was bought out-of-state, blah blah blah. Of course, Colorado wasn't interested in Ellison as a tourist- they were interested in him as a draw for the convention. So in the end, everyone was happy. Colorado got the tourist draw they wanted, and Ellison got to fantasize to his own morality porn.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Originally posted by Michael Ellis
Ah, but which ones did you see? Bad Dr. Who can be very bad.

Don't know the actor, but it's the one with the curly hair. One of the eps I saw involved the Tardis being boaded by some sort of lizard-men who walked like zombies (arms straight out, moving slowly).

Now, I can appreciate low-budget British sci-fi, I'm a big Red Dwarf fan, but the costumes were beyond low-budget. Hell, the crotches were hanging down to the knees!

I guess it's a case of a bad first impression.





And, yes, I remember the cheesy costumes of Lost in Space. Especially the alien with a giant walnut for a head.

[Siege]

Hmmm. Moriah, I may be name dropping, but I'll give it a shot, although I haven't met any really big names. These people I've met more than once (although one of them I know very little, and that's as much as I want to!).
Sarah Zettel: Neat, fun human being who's a lot of fun to do filk with in the wee hours of the morning.
Will Tenn: Amusing, guy, good raconteur who tells wonderful stories about his days in the Silver Age of Science Fiction. If any of you folks are at a con with him, get him to tell the story about the time he took a girl to have dinner with Theodore Sturgeon on their first date.
John DeChancie: He's the one I mentioned. A jerk of the first water who has poisoned my opinion of him to the point where I'm more likely to buy a book written by L. Ron Hubbard.
William H. Keith, Jr.: Wonderful guy, warm human being, fun, smart, vastly underappreciated as a writer, but not by his friends. Gives good hot tub and massage, and even better conversation. He is also, in real life, a very dear, close friend, as well as the guy who told me the Harlan Ellison story.

So, out of four, I know three good-to-great human beings, two of whom have been to my home (Will Tenn's the other one), and one who would be welcome here any time. The other one, well, life ain't perfect.

CJ

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by Mr. Blue Sky
Don't know the actor, but it's the one with the curly hair. One of the eps I saw involved the Tardis being boaded by some sort of lizard-men who walked like zombies (arms straight out, moving slowly).[/QUOTE]

Could be Invasion of Time. Not one of the better episodes to start out on.



I guess it's a case of a bad first impression.


Definately. Now go find videos of either Pyramids of Mars, Talons of Weng-Chiang.

Robots of Death is out on DVD in the US now, its a fairly nice murder mystery story with some well designed (well, for low budget TV at least) robot costumes. Peter Davison's final episode Caves of Androzani should be out on DVD in the US now as well.

[hazel-rah]

Bad Doctor Who may be really bad, but even the worst Doctor Who is better than the very best Star Trek.

[Ben]

Didn't Jon Pertwee have curly hair? The lizard episode sounds a lot like the one with the Silurians.

[Michael Ellis]

Originally posted by Ben
Didn't Jon Pertwee have curly hair? The lizard episode sounds a lot like the one with the Silurians.

Except the TARDIS wasn't featured in that episode at all, or even referred to by name. Which I think is the only occasion in the entire series that's happened.

[Sam Stone]

I disliked Ellison ever since I read an account of an author visiting his house. Apparently, it was like this crazy love den, with very young girls walking around in panties stoned out of their minds, etc. Ellison at the time would have had to have been in his forties or fifties.

The guy just sounded like an obnoxious sleaze. Good gig if you can get it, though.

[Skillet38]

3 words

The Glass Teat

let's talk about Vonnegut instead, he's much more interesting than Ellison

oh, and don't mention "Still Life with Woodpecker", because it's by neither....
thanks for your indulgence

[Scylla]

Originally posted by gobear
And Farnham's Freehold is a tad less icky than The Number of the Beast, but in a quantity than can be measured only in nanoangstroms.

Have you been hitting yourself on the head with skillet again?

Farnham's Freehold is a coherent story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. It was also quite daring and progressive for its time, turning on its ear the prejudices of America towards blacks.

The Number of the Beast like The Cat Who Walks Through Walls starts off like it's going to be good, and then wades into an unreadable morass of self-indulgence, and in the case of Beast, total incoherence.

Farnham is no masterpiece, but it is light years better than Beast.

[tomndebb]

When Polycarp gets back, you guys are going to make him cry.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by tomndebb
When Polycarp gets back, you guys are going to make him cry.
Sorry for the hijack, but where is Polycarp? He hasn't posted for like two weeks. he hasn't been on the PP board either. Is he on vacation. I've just been sort of curious. This place doesn't seem right without him.

[tomndebb]

Someone posted that he had latched onto an opportunity to help some community in upstate New York (his old stompin' grounds) put together a financial proposal (his specialty). I don't recall whether it was to seek aid or to let out bids.

If he's out of the house, he probably has no puter with which to post. If he's under a time constraint to write and sheepdog the proposal, he probably has no time to sign on from a library.

[Miller]

let's talk about Vonnegut instead, he's much more interesting than Ellison

If by "interesting" you mean "pedantic, irritating, and self-important," you may have a point. Besides, we're talking science fiction here, and Vonnegut has always been adamant that he doesn't write science fiction. I say, "real" fiction is welcome to him.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Thanks, tom. I was worried that he had lost access to computer again. I guess he'll just be back when he's back.

[thatDDperson]

Ellison...what can you say about a man who is friends with Tom Snyder?

He can (and will) be a rude little snot, but call him down on it, and he might back down. (OK, so I called him a nasty-natured ChickenShitF'er.) He was very polite after that...

I was at a booksigning, buying a couple hundred bucks worth of gifts and a book or four for myself, 3 weeks post cancer surgery. The shop owners were kind enough to let me sit and wait, rather than stand in line. H. E. made some snide comments, and I blasted him. (This is the tenderhearted soul whe was distraught at his Mom's death from cancer after she'd had to have what HE described in print as a hysterectomy with a chainsaw. He then rags on ME for appreciating a little kindness after the same kind experience.)

He definitely backed down when the receipt for the books (on which I had written who they were for, NOT requesting personized inscriptions, however) was flipped over and he saw the total. Money is often a motivation for less shit from a writer...

And the mind that wrote The Glass Teat gets several passes in The Asshole Olympics from me. I actually prefer his commentaries to his fiction writing most of the time, even if I disagree with him. The little fucker has style points enough to get him into Heaven, no matter what.

[Denis]

Originally posted by Miller
If by "interesting" you mean "pedantic, irritating, and self-important," you may have a point. Besides, we're talking science fiction here, and Vonnegut has always been adamant that he doesn't write science fiction. I say, "real" fiction is welcome to him.

Pedantic? Only for humorous effect, as far as I can see.

Irritating? Well, your mileage obviously varies.

Self-important? Um, no.

Yes, we are talking science fiction here, and in the great majority of his books, Vonnegut has some elements of science fiction. I find his books a melange of various styles. I don't have the exact quote handy (I think it's in Palm Sunday) but here's one thing he said about the science fiction label: "Early on, I was put into a file drawer labeled 'science fiction,' which many critics mistake for a urinal. I have been a sore-headed occupant ever since."

[gobear]

Originally posted by Scylla
Have you been hitting yourself on the head with skillet again?

Farnham's Freehold is a coherent story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. It was also quite daring and progressive for its time, turning on its ear the prejudices of America towards blacks.

The Number of the Beast like The Cat Who Walks Through Walls starts off like it's going to be good, and then wades into an unreadable morass of self-indulgence, and in the case of Beast, total incoherence.

Farnham is no masterpiece, but it is light years better than Beast.

I will reread FF and reconsider my opinion.

[elucidator]

Vonnegut is literature. Phil Farmer and Ursula LeGuinn are science fiction. Heinlien is penny-a-word hackery (though one full step above L. Ron, may his nuts toast in a microwave forever, amen).

I have spoken. Tremble and obey.

[Barbarian]

Who can not like The Golden Globe and Steel Beach? And dismiss it with a flippant "Married. Very Married," comment? Varley's great, and I wish he wrote more.

Now Harlan, he may have a personality as unsightly as James Brown, but I'm in it for his writing, not for his views on anything. It's not like he's a politician-- he's a fucking writer.

[elucidator]

Varley is pretty cool. I think the "very married" comment refers to his somewhat relentless feminism, which detracts from his....

What, honey? Me? Oh, just posting, nothing important. Yes, dear. Right away, my dove.......

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by elucidator
Vonnegut is literature. Phil Farmer and Ursula LeGuinn are science fiction. Heinlien is penny-a-word hackery (though one full step above L. Ron, may his nuts toast in a microwave forever, amen).

I have spoken. Tremble and obey.
I think Hubbard got paid by the yard. He had to have been the ultimate hack.

[E-Sabbath]

I think there's a difference here between "hackery" and "craftsmanship." There is a uniquely american style, noticable in such artists as Mark Twain, R.A.H., Bruce Springsteen, and Norman Rockwell, of well constructed commercial art. Plain and solid, but well made.

[RickJay]

Originally posted by Michael Ellis
I'm just surpised nobody's challenged my statement that Doctor Who is better than Star Trek.
If only I could get my Doctor Who movie made. It would be AWESOME. I can't decide between Tim Roth and Edward Norton as the Doc, though.

[Yllaria]

I can't believe this is a pit thread. You guys are going to get thrown out for being too nice. Not to mention too interesting.

Just wanted to chime in on the complaints about the Doctor Who costumes. They were not only low budget costumes, they were probably VERY OLD low budget costumes. The Doctor has been around forever. (Now you've gotten me curious and I'm going to have to look up the timeline of the show. Nuts.)

If I remember correctly, it was also a children's show, which would have put it even further on the back burner.

Anyone have any spleen to vent over the Dr. Who movie that Fox did? I mostly liked it except for two things. The Doctor does not kiss and he's bloody not half human.

[Terrifel]

Originally posted by Yllaria
I can't believe this is a pit thread. You guys are going to get thrown out for being too nice. Not to mention too interesting.Well, you wouldn't expect a mild-mannered, conciliatory fellow like Harlan Ellison to draw much ire. It's like starting a Pit thread on Mr. Rogers or something.
Anyone have any spleen to vent over the Dr. Who movie that Fox did? I mostly liked it except for two things. The Doctor does not kiss and he's bloody not half human. As a Doctor Who fan, I have no idea what you mean by this. There never was a two-hour American-made telemovie. You must be thinking of a different franchise.

[elucidator]

Mark Twain and Heinlien mentioned approvingly in the same breath! I reel, I stagger, I puke my guts out.

[Rubystreak]

I've corresponded with and met Harlan Ellison, and am a long-time fan. Yes, he can be an obnoxious, crotchety bastard, but I assure you it's a front. He's actually a stand-up guy. Also, he wa quite a womanizer in his day, but he's been married to the same woman now for going on 20 years, and he's definitely changed his ways. He's irreverent, outspoken, opinionated, and cynical, but he's also a genius AND a good friend.

I'd like to hear the story about how he lied to you, Wendell Wagner. Do tell.

[elucidator]

So ask him when he's going to rise up and lead the counter-revolution against the treacly glut of swordnsorcery, dragon-infested, bodice ripping, tree-hugging hippy crap that molders in every bookstore I see!

Arise, Sir Harlequin! Smite the Infidel! Son of the Return of the Revenge of Dangerous Visions!!

[squeegee]

Originally posted by Barbarian
Who can not like Steel Beach...?Well, me for one. I really liked Varley's earlier stuff. One reviewer said Varley once wrote like a young Heinlein (and bugger off, Luci). In Steel Beach, he wrote like an old Heinlein.

Maybe I'll try Golden Globe, perhaps he's improved since then.

[Denis]

Well, I guess I'm fucked as far as the Science Fiction Taste and Discernment Olympicstm goes.

I've read and appreciated all Varley and Heinlein I can get my smeggy little hands on. I don't always agree with them, but always try to see what their point is, and IMO, their grasp of the human condition is pretty spot-on.

Ellison, well, I've been meaning to read more of his stuff for about 20 years. Guess I ought to get with it, eh?

[Sir Rhosis]

FTR, Mr. Ellison will be 69 years of age, tomorrow, 5-27-03.

Sir Rhosis

[elucidator]

Originally posted by squeegee
...(and bugger off, Luci). ...

Rather be buggered than read another word of that sorry old hack! That a tree had to die to make Stranger drivel in print......

But Varley is cool, no argument there. Is he the one who wrote the story about the colony of deaf-mutes? Heartbreaker.

[Denis]

If Heinlein was a "hack," he was, and remains a very respected "hack" of the science fiction field.

Admit it, elucidator, you just don't get Heinlein.

[elucidator]

Sure. Stephen King sells books too. Got a point? Hell, I know people who would swear that Phillip K. Dickhead is a genius! Go figure.

[Denis]

elucidator, yes I have a point.

I really don't appreciate snobbery as you've been showing. Yup, S. King sells a shitload of books. Some are good (IMO), some are crap (IMO).

Philip K. Dick had atrocious prose, but his story ideas were, IMO, pretty ingenious. YMMV

Perhaps you should just restrict your reading to those books raved about by critics. Lots of books, but I can't imagine a more boring library.

[elelle]

I love Ellison's writing, and don't have a problem with his gadfly persona; I admire someone who has strong feelings and sticks to them, and ain't afraid to be the stick up some soft asses.

I really want to stand up for Harlan, though, in light of the 'little fuck" story, apocryphal as it may be, because it paints him as a insensitive lecher. I've posted this here before, but here's another go-round.

17 years ago, Harlan gave a lecture here in Chapel Hill, NC. Being a fan, I went. At the after lecture folderol, he was complimentary of my looks; I figgered it was because I was a small person, like him. There's a story in between this, but I'll just forward it to the fact that he came to the restaurant I waitressed at,( his sci-fi boy drivers were regulars) and wanted to talk to me. Even asked the management to give me a break, which made the sci-fi boys working there gape in awe. What I'd like to best impress is that Harlan was very sweet, and a gentleman. We had a nice conversation, even though my young sci-fi girl fan self was overwhelmed at that attention.. .He could have easily tried to take advantage of that, but was instead a kind heart, with wonderful conversation.

YMMV on Harlan, but my experience was a swell one.

[tomndebb]

I figgered it was because I was a small personI think your photo indicates it was your looks not your height.

[elelle]

Tom, I really can't figger what you mean, honest...

[elelle]

Oh, I just figgered it,,,***blush***

I am slow with that sort of thing...

[Avalonian]

Ellison has earned his reputation as being something of an asshole, and he has earned it well. An old friend of mine who used to work at Mile High Comics met him a number of times, and Ellison never failed to hit on her, sometimes a bit offensively. I've seen a great deal of evidence for his earned title.

However, he has three saving graces in my book. And they make up for everything.

First, as has been mentioned by a number of people, he is a damn fine writer. Whether reading his film reviews in Harlan Ellison's Watching or his stories in Strange Wine, I often find myself laughing out loud, or shaking my head in wonder, or occasionally, sniffling back tears. He's a writer capable of deeply moving work. And, for all his vitriol delivered against Star Trek (most of which is due to his own personal experience, I believe), he nevertheless penned one of its best episodes.

Second, Ellison deserves credit for recognizing talent, and in particular for encouraging one of my favorite writers, Dan Simmons, to continue writing, just as Simmons was ready to give it up for good. Having read the somewhat infamous account (in which Ellison decimates one hopeful writer's story, then goes on to praise Simmon's story effusively) from both Simmons' and Ellison's perspective, it seems to me that even if Ellison contributed nothing else to this world, he helped convince Dan Simmons to continue writing. For that, I owe him big.

Third, I met Ellison once. It was a short meeting, but I found him to be bright and entertaining. It was at a comic convention for comic retailers, in Atlanta, about 10 years ago now. I was part of a very long line, and I had a number of things for Ellison to sign, some for me, some for friends, some for my store. One of the items for me was his issue of Detective Comics (still have it, somewhere), and one of the others was Heroes for Hope, an X-Men benefit comic which Ellison had contributed a few pages to. While he signed the pages he had written, Ellison told me the story of how he swindled Marvel Comics, managing to keep the original Frank Miller pencil drawings for his pages and sending photostats on to Marvel to be inked for the comic. My only response was, "Damn, man, you kick ass," or something along those lines. He seemed pleased. The people behind in line were furious with me, I'm sure, as I was talking to Ellison for a good 10 minutes, but it was worth it.

Because, really, he does kick ass. In so many ways, most of them good. ;)

[j.c.]

One thing I can say about Harlan Ellison - that guy has a much better work ethic than I do. He might be an ass, he might buy the publishing rights to zillions of stories and then never publish the suckers, he might have gotten pretty darn paunchy in his old age, but he would never spend a Monday doing yard work and monkeying around on the internet when he had a major deliverable due Wednesday. Mo-Fo has churned out an awful lot of stuff. And edited. And taught classes. And he probably doesn’t still have a few weeds behind his garage. Even the most ferocious detractors must give him his due.

I take it that some of the poster in this thread write or hope to write science fiction. Do any of you think Ellison managed to be a rake before he was famous? Where would he have found the time?

[CalMeacham]

Boy, you go away for the weekend and look what pops up.


Sorry I missed this one earlier. But let me set down my own prejudices in some of these matters:


1.) I like Harlan Ellison, especially his vitriolic reviews. Reading him tearing apart Outland is a great experience, and I agree with every word. His forward to Phoenix without Ashes and his many writings about Roddenbery and "City on the Edge of Forever" I read and re-read. I like his scripts, several of which have been published. Curiously, it's his fiction -- especially his old shorter fiction -- I'm not all that fond of.

2.) Number of the Beast was the first Heinlein book I read when it was brand=spanking new. I opened it with trembling hands, and was unbelievably disappointed. His worst work, bar none.

3.) I first heard about Doctor Who when it first came out in Britain. Forrest J. Ackerman's monster-magazine bible Famous Monsters of Filmland ran articles on it and pictures from it. I burned to see this series. But, of course, I couldn't. I was in the USA, and it didn't run here. Then, in the 1970s, they started running it on PBS. I excitedly tuned in and.......it was awful! I could not begin to understand people's enthusiasm for this show. I've given it a decent chance, and have seen several Doctors. It's not the show's Britishness -- I loved The Avengers and The Prisoner and random other offerings. Peter Nicholls' Science Fiction Encyclopedia claimed it was better than Star Trek, a claim I'll hotly dispute. I think Nicholls and Klute's update says the same. The funny thing is, I have lots of Whovian friends. Heck, I'm married to a Who fan. Our union has, thus far, survived our disagreement on this vital topic.

[Dr. Rieux]

Originally posted by Ben
Think of the SF con in Colorado, soon after the anti-gay measure was passed. Rather than do what anyone else would do (namely, decline to attend,) Ellison attended, but made a big brouhaha about how he wouldn't contribute one cent to Colorado's economy. So he brought a mobile home full of food that was bought out-of-state, blah blah blah.
I remember him doing the same thing at the 1978 Worldcon in Phoenix, because Arizona hadn't ratified the ERA.

[rjung]

Originally posted by Terrifel
As a Doctor Who fan, I have no idea what you mean by this. There never was a two-hour American-made telemovie.
I'm not a Dr. Who expert by any means, but I also recall channel-surfing one night and catching bits of an American-made Dr. Who movie on Fox Television. Dunno if it was two hours, but it was definitely Fox and definitely American-made.

[Sir Rhosis]

^^^I think (my opinion, only) that the poster who disavows there was an American co-produced "Who" movie is simply attempting to convince him-/herself that it never happened.

Most Who fans (especially from the UK) I know hardly acknowledge it. I thought it was "so-so" myself.

Happy Birthday, Harlan!

Sir Rhosis

[Czarcasm]

The happiest of birthdays to Jefty Cordwainer Deathbird, the scourge of mediocrity and arch-enemy of all that is "skiffy".

[Esprix]

Originally posted by Terrifel

There never was a two-hour American-made telemovie.

Au contraire. Behold the horror that was Fox's Doctor Who (http://us.imdb.com/Details?0116118). Having attended the premiere Dr. Who convention in the U.S., Gallifrey (http://www.gallifreyone.org), I can assure you that, much like Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, McGann's Doctor is considered to be mostly apocryphal.

Can't say much about Ellison, as I've never met him in person, but the word in SMOFing circles is that he's a bear of a guest. He brings in the fans, though, and certainly has a load of talent.

[shameless plug]

Would this be a good time to mention that David Gerrold is a Guest of Honor at the convention I'm running next year, Gaylaxicon 2004 (http://www.gaylaxicon.org/2004)? ;)

[/shameless plug]

And Ben, Gerrold won the Hugo and Nebula not too long ago for The Martian Child (and we'll find out Friday if he'll win the Lambda for it), and won a Spectrum last year for Jumping Off The Planet, so I daresay he's been doing some worthwhile work lately.

Esprix

[Ben]

Whoosh! Whoosh! Whoosh!

[hazel-rah]

McGann's Doctor is considered to be mostly apocryphal.

The movie is mostly useless (as I think Terrifel was trying to convey to us), but McGann's the Eighth Doctor and he's damn good at it too. The audio dramas he's been in have been great, especially his second season. Colin Baker has redeemed himself as well.

[Terrifel]

Originally posted by Esprix
Au contraire. Behold the horror that was Fox's Doctor Who (http://us.imdb.com/Details?0116118). Having attended the premiere Dr. Who convention in the U.S., Gallifrey (http://www.gallifreyone.org), I can assure you that, much like Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, McGann's Doctor is considered to be mostly apocryphal. Now, see, this is what I'm talking about. Obviously people who are familiar with Paul McGann's highly entertaining "Eighth Doctor" audio dramas have mistakenly conflated him with the television show, resulting in a strange mass hallucination that there was some kind of TV movie involved. Sadly, science fiction fans seem to be prone to this sort of dissociative disorder, as evidenced by Esprix' mention of the mythical Star Trek V. Many Trek fans will insist that they have seen such a film, yet when pressed for details, they can only offer such improbabilities as "Spock has a happy brother," or, "Uhura dances naked." Sad, really. I've also heard people going on about a supposed sequel to the Highlander movie.

It is even so with the Doctor Who telemovie: IT NEVER HAPPENED. There were no femmy-voiced Daleks, no Eye of Harmony, no Master-in-a-Box (Just Add Water!), no car chases, no "Oh, by the way, babe, I'm half-human, I guess I just forgot to mention it over the last quarter-decade, now pardon me as I ram my tongue down your throat." It was all a delusion, a manifestation of the collective unconscious, much like the "Old Hag" hallucination or Byrd's lost radio transmission.

I mean, think about it for a second; does it make any sense at all that the BBC would just hand over the longest-running science-fiction programme in history to the Americans, just so they could cock it all up? Of course not! I don't care how many web sites you link to; you can also link to "evidence" for alien abductions and Freemason conspiracies, but that doesn't make them real either.

To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, "I would sooner believe that a thousand websites should lie, than that a half-human Time Lord should go to America."

Or, alternately, to quote Tom Servo, "If I run out of vomit, can I have some of yours?"

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by Esprix
Would this be a good time to mention that David Gerrold is a Guest of Honor at the convention I'm running next year, Gaylaxicon 2004 (http://www.gaylaxicon.org/2004)? ;)

Ask Gerrold when the hell he's going to finish that Chtorr series...and tell him we know the intelligence is in the quills. Pretty much everyone's figured that out by now.

[elucidator]

Is this the Sci-Fi convention that finally brings together the cosmic themes of homosexuality and constipation?

[Skillet38]

Man, when Ellison came up with that stuff about everybody being a member of someone's extended family, that was great, until that bad Ice 9 stuff happened. Fortunately it melted at exactly 451 faranheit but I grokked it......

[elelle]

Happy Birthday, Harlan! Don't ever give up the good fight, words and all. May all good graces be with you, and a quick stick to those haplessly wondering.

Always give it all ya got...

[Esprix]

Originally posted by elucidator

Is this the Sci-Fi convention that finally brings together the cosmic themes of homosexuality and constipation?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!









You're not funny.

Esprix

[elucidator]

Aw. c'mon now! You put the syllables "gay" and "lax" together and that bad pun didn't even occur to you?