Why is 'Jap' demeaning and 'Brit' is not?

[Ringo]

I think it's all in the subject liine. They're both just contractions.

[Mangetout]

Probabl;y irrelevant, but the Japanese don't call it Japan, so the abbreviations are not exactly equivalent.

[Mangetout]

However, 'Nip' is yet worse, I think.

[swami]

For the same reason that "Paki" is demeaning. If the word (or sound or whatever) has a history of being used in a demeaning way then people will see it in that light.

[monstro]

Is Brit used in demeaning ways?

Sure.

Is it only used in demeaning ways?

No.

Is Jap used in demeaning ways?

Yes.

Is it only used in demeaning ways?

Yes.

[Ringo]

I'm not sure how the Japanese feel about it; we have a large Japanese oil company here named Japoil. And I'll add that when I do hear 'Jap' used, while it certainly marks the speaker as non---PC, it is used not to demean but to describe - a Jap car, etc. So, no, in my experience it is rarely used in demeaning ways. It nevertheless is commonly thought of as demeaning.

[Cardinal]

I didn't know "Paki" was demeaning. I guess we just don't use it over here.

[MC Master of Ceremonies]

Yes, Cardinal 'Paki' is very demeaning and can also mean anyone from the Indian sub-continent.

I have heard a few Americans use it simply because they assume that Pakistan has the same contraction as, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, etc. (i.e. Afghan, Uzbek, etc.) but in the UK especially it is pretty much on par with the n- word.

[aahala]

A word becomes a slur due to its usage.

It's likely there would be nothing wrong with the shortened version of Japanese without its history. "Brit" as far as I know, does not have a long, widespread history of being derogatory

[mascaroni]

I've often heard Australian cricket commentators use the word with no derogatory undertones.
IMO it is only, as Swami says, the history of the word being used, that makes the word demeaning in the UK.

[bonzer]

Well, for a start, we Brits do have that self-deprecating streak.

More seriously, the obvious commonality between "Jap" and "Paki", at least in the UK, is that they've primarily (only?) been used by English speakers trying to stereotype the groups in question.
The interesting question is therefore surely what's been the usage of "Brit" in the past.

[Ringo]

Was 'Jap' demeaning before WWII?

[F. U. Shakespeare]

The first line of what aahala said.

I don't remember who said this, but it demonstrates the same principle:

"Why do you call a guy from Texas 'Tex', but you don't call a guy from Florida 'Flo'?"

[even sven]

I've always considered "Brit" to be minorly derogatory. It might be okay to say in a joke, but I'd never say it to a British person's face.

[samclem]

Was 'Jap' demeaning before WWII?
You bet it was.

Cited as a negative stereotype in the mid-late 1800's. But not in any way common the way it would be after WWII. It was more of a put-down demeaning orientals in general. It seems to have started life among sailors in the Far East.

[samclem]

The interesting question is therefore surely what's been the usage of "Brit" in the past.

Brit, as a shortening of British, doesn't even appear in print until 1901, and then not in a demeaning usage. It wasn't used in a negative way until the 1970's in the US. And even then it was mild.

[Ranchoth]

I have the sinking feeling that it's because the Japanese aren't "white."

[monstro]

:rolleyes:

[Ellen Cherry]

Related ... does anyone know where that hideous term "Gook" came from, to describe Vietnamese? I'd guess it was started by soldiers, but why? I heard a guy at work use it who was in the Vietnam war; I can barely speak to him now.

[Monty]

Aw, c'mon, Ellen. Speak to him all the time. But be sure to preface every comment to him with, "You bigot." Maybe then he'll get the message.

[kunoichi]

Originally posted by samclem
Brit, as a shortening of British, doesn't even appear in print until 1901, and then not in a demeaning usage. It wasn't used in a negative way until the 1970's in the US. And even then it was mild.
Hmm. I'm sure my Scottish friends would be offended at being called Brits. Of course they don't like Scotch either...

On a somewhat related note, I noticed when I was in the UK, it was ok to call people from China, Japan, Korea, etc. "Orientals," while in the US I know of many who would consider it extremely offensive. Of course a lot of people from Pakistan, India, and elsewhere on the subcontinent are offended by the American usage of "Asian" referring solely to East Asians (incidentally, from my limited experience, UK usage of Asian refers only to South Asians).

Just my two cents
:D

[kunoichi]

Originally posted by Monty
Aw, c'mon, Ellen. Speak to him all the time. But be sure to preface every comment to him with, "You bigot." Maybe then he'll get the message.

Sigh. Yet another "open-minded" person who resorts to their own type of slur. Does he shoot at you every day, Ellen? If not, then you should not call him a bigot. On the other hand, your coworker (if he really was in Vietnam during the war) probably had to dodge bullets fired by the people he refers to as "gooks" multiple times a day.

My grandfather served in WWII. He got shot down and was held prisoner in China several times, and he still refers to the enemy as "Japs" (the Chinese actually would fight amongst themselves to turn him in, because the US offered very nice rewards for the safe return of their soldiers). He doesn't necessarily use the word in a demeaning sense, it's just what everyone called them at the time because they were the "bad guys," when deep down he knew they were just doing the same thing as he was... fighting for their country.

[samclem]

Originally posted by kunoichi
My grandfather served in WWII. He got shot down and was held prisoner in China several times, and he still refers to the enemy as "Japs" (the Chinese actually would fight amongst themselves to turn him in, because the US offered very nice rewards for the safe return of their soldiers). He doesn't necessarily use the word in a demeaning sense, ....

Yes he does. He may not realize it, but he does.

If my grandfather still called Afro-Americans "niggers," is he using the term in a "demeaning" sense? Of course. His motivation may be pure, but his usage is demeaning.

Ellen We've done "gook" here. Search for the term.

Goes back to very late 1800's in Philippines I think.

[Ray Walker]

Originally posted by monstro

Is Jap used in demeaning ways?

Yes.

Is it only used in demeaning ways?

Yes.

You don't speak for me. I don't use it disparagingly.

[karomon]

Originally posted by samclem
Ellen We've done "gook" here. Search for the term.

Goes back to very late 1800's in Philippines I think.

From Korea, actually. Sorry for the hijack.

[kunoichi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by samclem
[B]
If my grandfather still called Afro-Americans "niggers," is he using the term in a "demeaning" sense? Of course. His motivation may be pure, but his usage is demeaning.

[QUOTE]

Afro-Americans is considered offensive nowadays, at least by my friends. Are you meaning to be demeaning? ;)

[samclem]

Originally posted by karomon
From Korea, actually. Sorry for the hijack.
Can you post the thread where we did this?

[Cardinal]

If my grandfather still called Afro-Americans "niggers," is he using the term in a "demeaning" sense? Of course. His motivation may be pure, but his usage is demeaning. I'm not sure about that. I have a friend whose grandpa used that term into the 90s, just because he was 93 himself and lived a very isolated life. I think his entire mass-media exposure was radio sermons, period, and even then not much. He lived on a farm in the middle of Kansas. I don't think he was trying to be demeaning. He was just startlingly ignorant.

[Marley23]

I think being demeaning - like being offensive, and many other things - lies in intent. I remember using the word Negro (as opposed to black) a few times in a 4th grade written report about Arthur Ashe. [The reason was mostly that most of the books I used were a few decades old, before some changes in terminology. I also felt somehow it sounded more polite than 'blacks.'] This being on Long Island, nobody would've been around to be offended anyway. :p (*Hooray for living in the new Birmingham.*)
Any guitar players here ever heard of a Jap Strat? It's not an offensive term at all, it's just quick to say than "Japanese-made Stratocaster."

But it's hard to judge someone else's intent. Either way, in the case of words like nigger or Jap - given how popularly known their connotations are - you'll rarely find someone using them who isn't trying to be demeaning.

[astro]

Originally posted by samclem
You bet it was.

Cited as a negative stereotype in the mid-late 1800's. But not in any way common the way it would be after WWII. It was more of a put-down demeaning orientals in general. It seems to have started life among sailors in the Far East.

Possibly to the Japanese, but from the American context I don't really know that I would characterize all use of the word "Jap" it as intentionally demeaning. I have several fishing equipment and rod building books from the mid 30's to late 40's and the common use of the term "Jap silk" and "Jap gut" (regarding fishing lines) seem to be used in shorthand and technically descriptive way to identify the item being discussed as "Japanese" without any demeaning intent and some of this use was pre-war.

[Walloon]

"Jap" was common — and neutral — usage in U.S. newspaper headlines from the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905) onward. Like Brit or US, it's a space-saver.

[Antonius Block]

Originally posted by even sven
I've always considered "Brit" to be minorly derogatory. It might be okay to say in a joke, but I'd never say it to a British person's face.
I'm a British expatriot living in Silicon Valley, and don't take any offense at the term Brit. You are quite welcome to say it to my face, even sven. It neatly sidesteps any problems of distinguishing between Scots, Welsh, and English. I had a Scots father and an English mother, so Brit suits me very well. It's much better than an older Americanism, "Britisher".

What does make me wince, however, is when Americans, in public, put on what they imagine to be a British accent. Local newscasters will often try this around the time of the (tennis) Championships at Wimbledon -- you can catch them slipping into what they probably imagine is a hilarious impression of an upper-class English accent. Alex Trebek, of the TV game show Jeopardy, also does this, not only with British accents but also with Australian, German, etc.

The Memorial Day Concert from the West Lawn of the US Capitol in Washington DC, shown on PBS earlier this evening, had a musical tribute to the various branches of the US Armed Services. In the lead-in to this, they acknowledged the close alliance with the British, and the Union Jack appeared on the TV screen. The on-stage MC slipped into a "British" accent. Ouch (from my perspective, at least).

I do not wish to imply that malice is intended in any of these examples.

However, if the above-mentioned TV personalities were reporting on celebrations for the Chinese New Year, and slipped into what they perceived to be a Chinese accent, what do you think would happen?

They would be fired on the spot.

[Pjen]

It has a lot to do with unspoken conventions about relationship and power.

I lived in the States in the sixties and accepted without demur terms like limey and references to the sun setting on the British Empire etc.. Americans similarly accepted humorous usage of damned yankees and intimations that they would have had a much better deal if they had stayed in the British fold.

Because of the long term positive relationship between US and UK, such banter was acceptable. If I had been German or Japanese such mild abuse would be seen as reprehensible.

This is why Hollywood has found it convenient to cast many many movie baddies with English accents or British actors- if the preponderance of baddies had come almost exclusively from another nation it would have been seen as racial stereotyping and hence unacceptable.

So, Brit (and even limey) are aimed with affection and accepted with humor.

'Jap' is rarely aimed with affection, nor accepted with humor.

[Pjen]

Originally posted by kunoichi
Hmm. I'm sure my Scottish friends would be offended at being called Brits.
:D

No reason why they should be offended. The term "British' was largely constructed to contain the English/Welsh with the Scots in the gradual Union that became Great Britain. Although the concept of 'Ancient Briton' existed, this was not applied to the medieval/early modern inhabitants of the islands.

Before the |Union English/Welsh were referred to as English generally (Welsh specifying only Welsh but many references to 'the English' in historical texts contained the Welsh as well.) Scots were Scots. After the Union we were Brits.

Now to call an Irishman a Brit is another matter. There is even resistance to having to call the Isles the British Isles.

[ruadh]

Originally posted by Pjen
Scots were Scots. After the Union we were Brits.

Yes, but there are a number of Scots who object to the Union.

[enigmatic]

As a brit I prefer the word to limey, or pom for example, and would indeed use it to describe myself, as in this reply. I definitely agree with Antonius Block about the accent, no one here ever talks like that.

[Tarantula]

It's like calling someone "Irish"...

LOL

[Pjen]

Originally posted by ruadh
Yes, but there are a number of Scots who object to the Union.

And a number of the English would similarly object to the Union with the Scots. ;)

[amanset]

Originally posted by ruadh
Yes, but there are a number of Scots who object to the Union.

Which never ceases to crack me up. I mean it was almost three hundred years ago. GET OVER IT.

And I say that as an English/Scottish crossbreed.

[Ice Wolf]

Regarding "gook":



Originally posted by karomon
From Korea, actually. Sorry for the hijack.
Originally posted by samclem
Can you post the thread where we did this?

"Gook" is an old term. According to this page, (http://www.wordwizard.com/clubhouse/founddiscuss.asp?Num=3128) it has a lineage of slur going back to the nineteenth century (used originally against women, referring to prostitutes), and has been used against both Asians and Polynesians.

Can't find the earlier thread discussing this, sorry.

[ruadh]

Well, it never ceases to amaze me that people think nationalist sentiments are based solely upon centuries-old resentments. Undoubtedly that's a factor, but most of the Scottish nationalists I know primarily consider that Scots could do a better job running their own country without English "assistance".

Now there's also the Scots who don't like being called Brits (or sometimes even being called Scots) because they think of themselves as Irish ... whole 'nother can of worms.

[amanset]

Originally posted by ruadh
Well, it never ceases to amaze me that people think nationalist sentiments are based solely upon centuries-old resentments. Undoubtedly that's a factor, but most of the Scottish nationalists I know primarily consider that Scots could do a better job running their own country without English "assistance".
(/quote]

In all fairness, it was a reply to someone talking about Scots not liking the Act of Union.

Of course there are other factors, but I trully believe that expressing resentment towards being called British due to an act that was passed nigh on 300 years ago is a bit over the top.

[quote]
Now there's also the Scots who don't like being called Brits (or sometimes even being called Scots) because they think of themselves as Irish ... whole 'nother can of worms.

Indeed. I was quite sad to see the Celtic game and not seeing a single Scottish flag, yet seeing a million and one Irish ones.

But as you say, best leave that one be.

[ruadh]

Originally posted by amanset
In all fairness, it was a reply to someone talking about Scots not liking the Act of Union.

I'm the only one who said anything like that and I said they didn't like "the Union" not "the Act of Union". Two different things.

I was quite sad to see the Celtic game and not seeing a single Scottish flag, yet seeing a million and one Irish ones.

The cameras might not have caught them but there were definitely Saltires there. Admittedly, nowhere near as many. More than you'd probably see at a Rangers match amidst all the Union Jacks, however.

[amanset]

Originally posted by ruadh
I'm the only one who said anything like that and I said they didn't like "the Union" not "the Act of Union". Two different things.


That'll be me being half asleep then. I shouldn't post when I have just got in to work.


The cameras might not have caught them but there were definitely Saltires there. Admittedly, nowhere near as many.

I guess it must be. I definitely don't remember seeing a single one.

[Another Clone]

What derogatory word do you call the English if not Brits? If it is Brit, then we've got away very lightly.

(Don't bother to answer if you're either French or Australian. However, I'd be curious to know what you call us if you're French/Australian - rospommes?)

[everton]

Originally posted by ruadh
The cameras might not have caught them but there were definitely Saltires there. Admittedly, nowhere near as many. More than you'd probably see at a Rangers match amidst all the Union Jacks, however.

Originally posted by amanset
I definitely don't remember seeing a single one.
I certainly saw a few, but about half were among the Porto fans*.

As I’ve said before on these boards, there are also English people who don’t like ‘Brit’ much. Me for instance. But the nature of a word, and whether it’s insulting or not, depends on a shared understanding between the person who says it and the person on the receiving end.

Of course if an American called me a Brit, limey or whatever and I knew they were just using it as a colloquialism with no offence intended it wouldn’t bother me at all in the same way as ‘pommy bastard’ from a smiling Australian doesn’t hurt. But if I thought you were intending to insult me I’d take it that way. For that reason, ‘Jap’ is insulting if it’s used by a person who intends it to be an insult, or if they know that a Japanese listener is likely to believe it to be an insult.

*In case anyone needs an explanation for that: Porto's team colours are blue and white, like the flag.

[Monty]

Originally posted by kunoichi
Sigh. Yet another "open-minded" person who resorts to their own type of slur.

Bullshit. I am advocating the "tell it like it is to the clueless" approach. My suggested use of the term "bigot" fits very well into its use in polite society. The racial slur the bigot in question used does not.

Does he shoot at you every day, Ellen? If not, then you should not call him a bigot. On the other hand, your coworker (if he really was in Vietnam during the war) probably had to dodge bullets fired by the people he refers to as "gooks" multiple times a day.

That does not, in any way, give anyone the right to go around using a racial slur to refer to someone else.

My grandfather served in WWII. He got shot down and was held prisoner in China several times, and he still refers to the enemy as "Japs"

Then your grandfather is also a bigot.

(the Chinese actually would fight amongst themselves to turn him in, because the US offered very nice rewards for the safe return of their soldiers).

Provide proof of this assertion. Failing that, retract it.

He doesn't necessarily use the word in a demeaning sense,

A racial slur has only a demeaning sense. A racial slur does not have a good sense, nor do those who use such racial slurs.

it's just what everyone called them at the time because they were the "bad guys," when deep down he knew they were just doing the same thing as he was... fighting for their country.

Not everyone called them that at the time. Or do you believe the Nissei who fought for their country (you know, the United States) went around referring to the Japanese by a racial slur? Do you think German-Americans went around referring to the Germans by a racial slur? Or that Italian-Americans went around referring to the Italians by a racial slur?

Oh, getting back to my "tell it like it is to the clueless" approach: I hope you took notes. I just used that same approach for your benefit.

[Monty]

Regarding "Brit"

On Diego Garcia, British Indian Ocean Territory, the popular place for the British contingent to party is The Brit Club. Yes, that's actually the name of the place.

[kunoichi]

>Provide proof of this assertion. Failing that, retract it.

First person accounts. Not written down anywhere, for all I know it was unofficial. I just know that the Chinese had no reason to keep my grandfather alive AND captive unless they were getting rewarded, so I'm going to take his word on this one. Also, the Nationalists and the Communists would shoot each other and take extra care to not harm the American captives. Sure, they could have been just being nice, but it was ten times easier to turn them over to the Japanese to be tortured and killed.

>A racial slur has only a demeaning sense. A racial slur does not have a good sense, nor do those who use such racial slurs.

And the term "bigot" has a good sense? From what I've seen, bigot is only thrown around to demean people whose opinions differ from the politically correct left.

My point is a word is just a word. If you want to get offended at words, that's your personal problem. One example of my point is when you learn a foreign language (if you're truly open-minded you should...), you obviously don't know all of the history behind certain expressions. So as a fledgling user of a language, you may mislearn or mistakenly use a word that may be offensive to the other culture. This useage can hardly be called deliberately demeaning. I'm using this as an analogy to someone who is brought up in a segment of American culture that uses a word to refer to those "different" people. Without knowing or thinking much about the history of the useage of a word, you start to use it indiscriminately and not think about or mean it to be demeaning or offensive.

I will admit that my grandfather is uneducated and ignorant, but bigoted? no.



>Not everyone called them that at the time. Or do you believe the Nissei who fought for their country (you know, the United States) went around referring to the Japanese by a racial slur? Do you think German-Americans went around referring to the Germans by a racial slur? Or that Italian-Americans went around referring to the Italians by a racial slur?

Sure they did, maybe not all but at least some of them did. My other grandfather fought in Europe. Very German-American. But he still called the Nazis Krauts.

>Oh, getting back to my "tell it like it is to the clueless" approach: I hope you took notes. I just used that same approach for your benefit.

For this approach to work, you must first establish that the person you are talking to is clueless. I am not, so obviously you just failed.

I'm trying to maintain civility here. I'm just expressing my opinions and some counter-examples to the demeaning useage of ethnic slurs. You're trying to incite a fight by calling my relatives bigots. If you really want to start fights, take it to the pit. I'm not going to throw insults back and forth here.

Doozo yoroshiku onegaishimasu.

[kunoichi]

Originally posted by Pjen
No reason why they should be offended.

I know, you just have to know my friend ;) She got upset when, at the Edinburgh Military Tattoo, they played the British national anthem instead of the Scottish "national anthem." For what it's worth, here in the US there are still southerners who insist that they should have never conceded defeat back in the 1860s.

It's more of a joke than anything... but I think there is still some resentment of the way the government is set up and a feeling (grounded or no) that the Scots get the short end of the stick. I have no idea, I just tried to stay out of the politics when I was over there because I had no reason and/or right to form an opinion without knowing more about the history.

One thing that is definitely fighting words is calling a Scottish person "English." A French girl I knew almost got into a fight in a tea house over that... ;)

[trabi]

The word Brit is often supposed to be demeaning or at least patronising, especially when uttered by a certain type of Yank (particularly Republicans and other forms of plankton), usually in what it amuses the speaker to believe is an authentic Cockney accent.

The reason it hasn't become a no-no is that the vast majority of Brits* are too thick-skinned to realise that it is meant as anything but a complement.

Having said that, the unabbreviated word "English," when uttered in a certain tone of voice in a Glasgow, Cardiff (or even Cornish) pub near to closing time is a terrible, terrible insult, carrying the threat of impending physical violence.

*When most people say "Brits" they actually mean the English, as the Scots and the Welsh etc. tend to emphasise that they are Scottish, Welsh, etc. the first time you meet them. The notable exceptions to this rule are sports commentators, in which case the word "British" refers to a Scottish, Welsh or even Cornish team that has got through to the final of some international tournament.


- A Brit.

[istara]

Originally posted by swami
For the same reason that "Paki" is demeaning. If the word (or sound or whatever) has a history of being used in a demeaning way then people will see it in that light.
A Pakistani LiveJournal friend of mine frequently refers to Pakistan as "Paki". Can't remember if she has used it to describe people too.

[sjc]

Originally posted by samclem
Brit, as a shortening of British, doesn't even appear in print until 1901, and then not in a demeaning usage. It wasn't used in a negative way until the 1970's in the US. And even then it was mild.

The OED mentions an earlier use of Brit to refer to Scots (or a certain tribe of Scots anyway). It also mentions your history. The first quote it gives seems like it could be derogatory. I think that probably it has been fairly derogatory over its history.

I think the key point as to why Brit isn't considered as derogatory as Jap (to Americans) lies in the fact that the Americans and British have been on generally good terms for most of their separate history. Or a least the relationship has always been more complex than simple hatred. After all, our strongest cultural ties are and always have been with the British. Sure the Americans might get mad at the British, but there were always people who knew and liked some or all of the Brits.

Americans didn't identify with the Japanese like they did with the British. Many Americans definitely thought of them as inferior. Of course Jap would have a bad connotation. I'm sure even the word Japanese was used derogatorily. It probably was less likely to be used derogatorily because it was a more standard form and perhaps because it didn't sound as harsh (i.e. short and sharp).

[sjc]

Re: "Gook"

The OED gives a quotation from 1935 that uses gook that comes from the Phillipenes. The usage from Korea they give dates from 1947.

[swami]

Originally posted by istara
A Pakistani LiveJournal friend of mine frequently refers to Pakistan as "Paki". Can't remember if she has used it to describe people too. For the same reason that "Paki" is demeaning. If the word (or sound or whatever) has a history of being used in a demeaning way then people will see it in that light.





...mostly...





...kinda...





...sometimes...





...but not always. :)

[Mehitabel]

If Paki is not supposed to be used for Pakistanis, then what is? And what are people of Indian ancestry called in Britian? And I take it Asian is not a racial thing, it covers people from China as well as Indians (who are Caucausian as the English, just not usually as pale). I suppose if I ran into a third-generation Anglo-Indian over here in America I'd think of them as just British, but that's probably the assimilationist Yank in me talking.

[ruadh]

Originally posted by Mehitabel
If Paki is not supposed to be used for Pakistanis, then what is?

"Pakistani".

And what are people of Indian ancestry called in Britian?

Too often, "Paki" :(

And I take it Asian is not a racial thing, it covers people from China as well as Indians

Actually, "Asian" in Britain generally does mean Indian or Pakistani.

[everton]

Here's a page from the UK Census 2001 (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=273). All the categories listed there were available for people to self-identify their ethnicity (in fact there was at least one other box to tick "White" > "Irish").

Note how "Asian" is sub-divided into Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Other Asian – which presupposes "other South Asian". No generic term is commonplace for people originating from further east in Asia, so if people are of, say, Thai or Malaysian extraction it was assumed they would have ticked the box for Other.

[lilbtagna]

On the page everton linked to, Chinese is listed separately from the Asian grouping. I'm Vietnamese, so I'm not quite sure if I would have checked the "other Asian" box or the "other" box. Could someone explain this to me please?

Sorry for the slight hijack, but that strikes me as really odd.

[everton]

Like I said, it would have been assumed that you would have ticked the Other (not Other Asian) box. Of course the census people realise that China, Vietnam etc. are in Asia, but the colloquial use of "Asian" here means south Asian (from the Indian subcontinent), so Other Asian would be for Nepalese, Sri Lankan etc.

In practice, I'd be very surprised if some people in your situation wouldn't have ticked the Other Asian box anyway, but I can't remember how much advice there was on the census form itself.

[bibliophage]

I think the question has been aswered about as well as it can be in this forum. If some of you want to debate or rant about these issues, there are other forums for that.

bibliophage
moderator GQ