The Curse of The Nice Guy

[Doc' Trauma]

A question that I have oft asked of my female friends...Why is it that women do not like nice guys? The guys that remember their birthdays, always notice that they've done something new with their hair, the guys that remember their favorite flavor of Ben and Jerry's Ice cream and bring it to them when they've had a bad day. The reason I ask this of my female friends is that I am that guy. The perennial Guy Friend, whom is "just too nice", and, "like a brother to me", and who they "could never think of as anything other than a friend." I've been dumped several times and it always seems to be the guy that rides a motorcycle and plays in a band. (no seriously, one the other or both at the same time at least 3 times in a row) Then after that relationship fails they always come back to me for comforting and such, but still can not think of me as more than a friend.

So many women I know keep saying that they just wish they could find a nice guy. Here I am, but no. They apparently want some sort of nice that I am not.

So which is it, do women want the nice guy or do they want the drum playin' motorcycle ridin' stooge that only thinks of himself?

[MustangSpirit_WildnFree]

Women dream of having the perfect relationship with the guy full of romance but, the grass is always greener effect I guess. Some wild streak in them or want for sense of adventure or sometimes just so someone can envy them (in short the shallow women) decide to go for the more attractive bad boy so they can get the attention from the crowds (popularity) Although in some cases, one which I have been in....women may enjoy having a nice romantic sensative fairy tale guy but they don't want to be smothered they want the guy to be understanding of the fact that they may need their space and are capable of doing things for themselves as well. soooo it's like trying to reach a happy medium. But face it....no one will ever understand women...I am one and I still don't.

[ultrafilter]

Women want nice guys, not spineless wimps. That's the short version of what's been discussed in the 8000 previous threads on this topic, and what will be hashed out here.

[Doc' Trauma]

Sorry, must have missed those threads ultrafilter. I wouldn't knowingly condone a discussion of the banal.

[Tony Barber's Underwear]

Originally posted by Doc' Trauma
Sorry, must have missed those threads ultrafilter. I wouldn't knowingly condone a discussion of the banal.

See, this is your problem. If you'd told ultrafilter to fuck off, you'd have the birds gagging for it.

- Bubba.

[Doc' Trauma]

Is that a good thing....?

[Angel of the Lord]

It's not a good thing. Fortunately, you'll find that many girls will go for nice guys; you've just gotta work harder to find them. Incidentally, many guys prefer not-nice girls. It's all a preference game. You thought finding your One True Love (or a one night stand) would be easy? If you've got standards, it's most likely gonna be hard no matter how nice or evil you are. If you don't have standards, just hire a prostitute. In Nevada. Where it's legal. ;).

[Medea's Child]

The word "nice" has a lot of definitions. I don't care if you notice my hair (if its doing something cool, you'll hear about it) but I do care if you behave like a doormat, or in general exude the confidence of a ficus plant. Confidence is sexy and fun in ways that ice cream will never be. (Okay, that was a bad example)

Its not that you are doing the good things wrong, it that you have failed to mention what you are not doing right. My most recent ex is a very "nice" guy, a great cook, picked out a fantastic bracelet for me for christmas, gets along with my family, likes kids...and can't live up to his plans to do anything productive to save his skin. Its not that I want a "bad" guy, but I need a partner who can handle himself in the real world, get going even when the going is rough.

Two guys before that I dumped another "nice" guy. Poet, romantic, sweetheart, musical...and mentally unstable, obsessive and controlling.

I don't want nice, I want a solid person with a real life who can handle things when they go bad and revel in things when they are going well. I want a guy who only thinks of me just as much as I'd want a guy who only thinks of himself. Being "nice" usually isn't the problem.

[The Calculus of Logic]

of all the guys i know who are good with women (finding, seducing, screwing), none really respect them as human beings. Maybe its something about a guy being untamed and not caring about their needs that draws a woman.

[Omorka]

In my case, it's not that I don't like nice guys - the Spouse is one, as are the Imzadi, my last big crush, and the PYT that I'm currently spiralling at a distance. It's that nice guys swallow their ice and run away screaming when I finally work up the courage to smile at them and tell them I'd like to bed them. Nice guys don't seem to care much for shy bad girls.

Having picked up a distinctly not-nice guy between the Imzadi and the Spouse, I'll continue to deal with the running away.

[Doc' Trauma]

... I don't want nice, I want a solid person with a real life who can handle things when they go bad and revel in things when they are going well. I want a guy who only thinks of me just as much as I'd want a guy who only thinks of himself. Being "nice" usually isn't the problem. [/B]

I'd like to think that I am a solid person, who is especially adept at handling problems (Captain of my local EMS corps), and I'm known for laughing far too loud when things are great. I'm not sure that that is my problem.

An Earlier post mentioned something about being a spinless doormat. How does one not be a spineless doormat and continue to be nice...I know it's all about balance but how do you show people that you're a confident individual without trying to show that you're a confident individual?

[Cat Whisperer]

Women don't respect guys who don't respect themselves. If this applies to you, maybe it's something to work on. If it doesn't, maybe it's your aftershave.

[dantheman]

:: takes notes :: Good thread, this.

[MikeRochenelle]

Women don't know what they want. (Neither do guys for that matter, but we're talking about women here...)They say they want nice guys. They're wrong. They honestly believe it, but they're wrong never the less.

Girls want a guy who is rich and successful. Failing that they want a guy who is exciting and will bring romance and drama to their lives. Failing that they will settle for a nice guy, but he probably won't get laid much.

I recommend you read up on Ladder Theory. (http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html)


-Ben

[monica]

Hey, I go for nice guys sometimes. In fact, my current boyfriend is one of the nice guys that used to complain about how girls never go for nice guys.

[Duke]

"Location: Stoudsburg, PA"

Aw, man, there's your problem. You'd be cursed whether you were a nice guy or not.

But seriously. Don't think of yourself as a "nice guy," just think of yourself as a guy. Don't think to yourself that "I deserve women to flock to me because I'm a nice guy." A, because it's not going to happen, and B, because once you realize you're in charge of your own fate and have control of your own destiny, better things are bound to happen.

Leaving Stroudsburg wouldn't hurt either. I mean, have you tried Wilkes-Barre or Hazleton?

[ultrafilter]

Originally posted by Doc' Trauma
Sorry, must have missed those threads ultrafilter. I wouldn't knowingly condone a discussion of the banal.

Nah, don't worry about it. I see this a lot, and I'm guilty of it myself. It's true, though: confidence is damn sexy. Also, take a moment to read this (http://www.teemings.com/issue15/mandajo.html), and do look for the previous threads on this topic. There's good advice there.

[elfkin477]

Do we keep having these threads over and and over over and over again because men don't listen? :)

[Guinastasia]

Are you one of those guys who ALWAYS makes the girl feel like she's a princess, puts her on a pedestal, etc?

I knew someone like that-it was always ME. He always put ME in charge-but you know what? He was a whiny, insecure, emotionally manipulative, passive aggressive creep. If I talked to another guy, he got jealous and depressed-and we were NOT dating, because I had no interest in him that way. He was the sort, "I'm sooooo nice to you-won't you PLEASE like me?" He followed me around like a wounded puppy dog. Wounded puppies are cute-but human beings are not puppies.

He didn't have any respect for HIMSELF. And he was pathetic. And then, when he showed signs of becoming a stalker, I cut off all contact.

And that's why the "Nice Guy" rants tend to set off alarms in my head. If you're really a "nice guy", you don't have to mention it-it'll be obvious.

[jesleigh]

Personally, I find guys are the same way...here I am a great girl (really, I am), you know pretty, smart, God-fearin' southern girl. I cook, clean, and all the feminine stuff. My friends tell me I have a great personality, but do I get dates? NO! And way not you ask...probably becuase guys aren't looking for nice girls either ;)

[Shakes]

Awe hell I'll throw ya a couple of bones. Even tho' I've seen this thread like a cazillion times.

#! be opinionated. In other word don't agree with everything a woman says just becuase you want to get on her "Good side" if she says something thats F'd up or you don't agree with; let her know it

#2 Be funny

#3 Relax/ be confident (already been said I know.)

#4 Be apathetic: This works really well. What I mean by this is if a woman says something to you like "I don't think I'm gonna be able to make our date friday night" your response should be something like "alright, whatever" don't ask for any explanations as to why and don't act like your bumed either. Just hang up the phone or go about your bussiness.

[plain_jane]

Originally posted by MikeRochenelle
Girls want a guy who is rich and successful. Failing that they want a guy who is exciting and will bring romance and drama to their lives. Failing that they will settle for a nice guy, but he probably won't get laid much.
-Ben

I disagree with this.

I am not looking for a sugar daddy. I make my own money. I don't need excitement and drama. I prefer quiet. I'm not going to settle for a "nice guy" and deny him sex because he isn't rich and exciting.

I want someone who is emotionally balanced. An emotionally balanced person respects themselves and others. They would not mistreat people, nor would they permit others to mistreat them or other people. An emotionally balanced person uses their skills (as opposed to someone capable of having a rewarding career but choosing to remain between minimum wage jobs) and has goals (even if they are simple goals.) Someone who has a worldview compatible with my own (meaning morals, opinions on important topics).

Money does not factor into this beyond the fact I'm not interested in dating someone who can't hold down a job. Someone who just won't work isn't an issue due to money, but rather, it tells me they are wasting their talents and probably don't put much effort into anything.

Contrary to what is said here during these types of threads, I don't want a jerk. I am not going to be on this earth a long time, I'd like to enjoy myself, and that means surrounding myself with positive, happy people.

[danceswithcats]

You should drive down from Stroudsburg partway, and I'll drive up partway.

Neither of us will feel any better or understand women one whit more, but we can have a beer and compare woeful tales. :D

[Keith Berry]

Originally posted by SHAKES
#4 Be apathetic: This works really well. What I mean by this is if a woman says something to you like "I don't think I'm gonna be able to make our date friday night" your response should be something like "alright, whatever" don't ask for any explanations as to why and don't act like your bumed either. Just hang up the phone or go about your bussiness.


Here Is Wisdom.

Or, in other words:

BE COOL! Women like their guys have have emotions, but they don't like them overtly emotional. Whenever she does something that disappoints you in some way, mention your disappointment briefly and factually and then drop the subject. Women don't like whiners. I know. I used to be a whiner. And I wised up quick.

[Shana]

Gosh, I never expected to see a Doper from Stroudsburg!

Listen Doc, I definitely must agree with what everyone has been saying about confidence....I consider myself a nice person, but nice does NOT mean a doormat. There is a huge difference between the two. You can be nice and still exude an air of confidence and "coolness". You have to be a little bit cool. You must, must, must be.

My husband is an incredibly nice guy. Yet he doesn't take my s*** in any way shape or form. He tells me when I'm wrong. He doesn't always like the restaurant I suggest or my hair. And thank God! I don't think I could stomach someone following me around intuiting my every need and desire. Um, well, that would be fun for an hour or so, but it would quickly become tiresome. Women want an equal partner. Not a jerk. Not an overly agreeable lap dog. Try to really look at your behavior with women. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but you can't win a woman with ice cream. You have to put yourself forward, take the initiative, ask her out. When she's your girlfriend you can bring her ice cream...she'll like that!;)

[Siege]

Gentlemen, look a little further west. I can think of at least one woman here who likes nice guys, and who considers nice a requirement for dating material.

The thing is, I have discouraged two "nice guys" from dating me. Here's why.

The first one is a guy who I sing in choir with. I've known him for several years now, and know him reasonably well. He hasn't got a mean bone in his body. The problem is, there's no depth, strength, or breadth to him. Me, I tend to be rather strong-willed, passionate type with a propensity for mounting my white horse and tilting at windmills. I've come into church talking about the latest injustice in the local news, and he just shrugs his shoulders and says, "OK". Not long after we met, he told me he had 16 bookshelves. I thought, "Cool! Sounds like my kind of guy!" They turned out to be 95% science fiction, 5% computers. Some years ago, when I was working on my resume, I left a message on his answering machine on a Friday night asking for help. He called me at 11:00 that night, and 8:00 the following morning, giving me the impression that I was his "last thought at night and first in the morning."

The other guy I know less well but we worked for the same company at the same client for quite a while. He acted interested, and out coworkers kidded me about his interest, but he never asked me out. I can't give you a lot of tangibles here, but I got the impression that this is another guy who couldn't stand up to me, thus, by extension, would not stand up for me.

Nice guys, here's the deal. I'm not a goddess, and I'm nowhere near as strong as I make myself out to be. Stand up to me. I'm looking for an equal and a partner. The men I have loved most have told me when I'm wrong, supported me when I'm weak, have not hesitated to discuss the Great Issues of Our Times with me stood up to me, and loved me for doing that. I'm pretty insecure myself, and I'm still working on dumping some old ideas about how ugly and unlovable I am, so puppy dog eyes only make me nervous. I don't want to be your world -- mine is still a bit screwed up. I would like to share your world and for you to share mine. There are all sorts of wonderful places to discover! While I can be weak at times, I am strong by nature, and I will support you when you're down if I think you'll support me. At the beginning of things, I may disagree with you to see your response. I admit that. If I do, don't just shrug and say, "OK", tell me why you disagree. I promise that the same passion I bring to defending "poor, downtrodden whatevers" will appear in bed later, and probably even more.

I hope this helps,
CJ

[Ferret Herder]

Originally posted by MikeRochenelle
Girls want a guy who is rich and successful. Failing that they want a guy who is exciting and will bring romance and drama to their lives. Failing that they will settle for a nice guy, but he probably won't get laid much.

The guy in college who made my heart pound the most wasn't looking like he would be either. He had a solid character though, and was dependable and kind. And we had a ton of sex. :D He's my husband now.

Breakup Girl (http://www.breakupgirl.net/)'s site describes the problem as being that a lot of self-professed Nice Guys are what she calls "Loft Builders". They do things like build lofts, bake cookies, walk the woman's dog, tune up her car, etc. All very nice, kind things to do. All extremely non-romantic - you put yourself into the friend role by concentrating on this stuff.

From the start, I knew that the guy I mentioned above was interested in me, but since I was dating someone else at the time, he stayed within the bounds of polite behavior. But I could tell he was still interested, and we hung out as friends. And here was this nice but not "friend-only" guy who was obviously attracted to me, who was behaving much better than my then-boyfriend. So I dumped my ex when I couldn't stand his behavior to me any longer, and soon started dating my friend. Like I said, he's now my husband.

Another problem with some Nice Guys is they whine often and in public about how women only want jerks. I half-guarantee you that their listening audience is probably women who might be attracted to nice guys, but hearing the message "You women only want abusive assholes" is not exactly a turn-on.

Finally, maybe the women you're attracted to aren't good dating material. Some women do seem to be fixated on jerks for some reason, and they have to deal with that on their own. Certain men might benefit - since they can't change the behavior of anyone but themselves - from asking themselves what they see in such women. It's common for some reason to be attracted to guys with problems in hopes of "saving" them; perhaps it's the same thing here.

[Ferret Herder]

Oh, and let me add here - I was the Girl Friend in high school. I had a ton of male friends, and they all thought of me as "one of the guys"... too much. Their dating prospects never included me. When I got to college, things opened up a lot because I was more laid back about showing attraction and approaching guys first/saying something instead of waiting with big eyes hoping some guy thought I was cute.

[CrazyCatLady]

I had a post last night that the hamsters appear to have been snacking on. Or maybe they're just hiding it in their little mouth pouches. No, wait, that's chipmunks. Never mind.

Anyway, the upshot of it was this: It sounds like you're focusing way to much on the outward signs of niceness and not on real, honest-to-goodness niceness. A true nice guy may not treat anyone like a princess, but he treats everyone well, with courtesy and respect. He's understanding and sympathetic, but honest enough to tell you when you're wrong. He's not showing you what he thinks you want to see, he's just being who he is.

I don't want or need anyone to dance attendance on me and buy me ice cream. I can get my own ice cream, thank you very much. Yeah, it's nice when someone buys it for me, but it's also completely unnecessary.

What matters is the affection and respect which is supposed to prompt that sort of thing, and the ability to return said affection and respect. I can love and respect someone who forgets my birthday, but I can't respect someone who lets me ride roughshod over him.

[astorian]

I've given this answer before, and as a long-time "nice guy" who couldn't get a date, I feel qualified to ask it.

Dear OP- I don't want to insult you or dismiss your pain, but look in the mirror, and ask yourself honestly: "Is my real problem simply that I'm too nice, or is there something else wrong with me?"

[Rapunzel]

Respect is as important, if not more, than love IMHO. Neither of the extremes, bad boy or doormat, generate real respect from a woman. And you'll have to respect yourself before someone else will.

Anyway, you guys have your own version of this nice guy/bad guy argument. That good ol' Madonna / Whore Syndrome.

[papergirl]

I'm in love with a very nice guy. After living with a mean SOB for ten years, "nice" was very high on my list of criteria.

But he's not just nice. He's also got a great sense of humor and an air of gentle confidence that is very appealing. He genuinely likes and respects women...a trait that perhaps deserves a thread unto itself for its rarity, ime at least. He's decisive, strong, good-humored (I know I mentioned it, but again, very important to me), mature, and almost shockingly open sometimes.

In short, I think there's more to being a "nice guy" than just being nice, if that makes sense.

Ben, honey:
There are a lot of different women out there...not all of us want bad-ass rich boys. Speaking for myself, the LAST thing I need in my life is a man with a lot of money. Gah! The issues that would arise!
And it happens that MY nice guy gets laid a LOT, thankyouverymuch.

[Optihut]

Well, while I do agree that confidence and being resolute are important points, I get the impression that some women just can't discern between "confidence" and "bullshit bragging".

The nice guy would never boast about his accomplishments and since everybody else does, it is assumed that the nice guy has got no accomplishments whatsoever.

I think Shakes gave the best advice how to behave. Even if point #4 doesn't increase your success with women (although I think it will), it'll spare you the heartache from being turned down.

I used to take everything to heart, but now that I simply don't care anymore, things are going much better.

[godzillatemple]

Well, here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185020) is a thread I started a week or so ago to put forth my personal theory on the subject....

Barry

[ultrafilter]

godzillatemple, did you read this link (http://www.cyberiron.com/drugs/testosterone.html) posted in your last thread?

[godzillatemple]

ultrafilter: Yes, I did read that link. It's from 1995 and states that testosterone may not be linked to aggression afterall. However, it is so full of "may" and "perhaps" that it is not what I would consider definitive by any means. Besides, the study even admits that there is still evidence linking testosternoe to agression:


There has been other evidence implicating testosterone as the bearer of brutality. When scientists inject laboratory animals with testosterone, male and female animals alike respond with more aggressive behavior, becoming more likely to attack intruders or to begin mounting anything that moves.

Moreover, some studies of prison populations, wife beaters or other groups considered hostile and foul-tempered, suggest that aggressive men have comparatively high testosterone levels.

And then there are those football players or weight-lifters who take super-high doses of anabolic steroids -- synthetic androgens -- in an attempt to build strength and muscle mass. Often, such men report feeling prepared to go out and puree their opponents.


I still think it's possible that high testosterone levels simulaneously make men more attractive to women and prevent them from being "nice guys," meaning that women who complain about not meeting nice guys wouldn't be attracted to them if they met them. It's just a theory, though...

Barry

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

From reading the above, it's obvious we have to distinguish between "nice" meaning "being considerate" and "nice" meaning "being a passive doormat". Isn't the former supposed to be a good thing?

[Pábitel]

I have posted this before in similar threads but here it is again.

I had this bookmarked once but the link died and I have been unable to locate another source. About a decade ago I saw a study done in the US. I think it was done with something like 4000 unmarried females. They asked half of them to rank the top ten things they looked for in a date. The other half were asked what the top ten traits of their perfect husband.

When they compiled the data they found that there was not one item that showed up on both lists.

In short women go out on dates to have fun and so pick guys who are fun. So they end up dating and marrying the "fun" guys. They also end up devorcing the "fun" guys who are also imature, unfaithful, substance abusers, irresponsible, etc, etc, etc.

Meanwhile the guys they say they want as their ideal husbands sit home on a Saturday night because they are not fun, dangerous, exciting, unpredictable, risk takers, etc, etc, etc.

As far as how to deal with this, well I'm one of the "nice guys" and never went on a date in my life. I am also married for 11 years and never happier. My answer is, "opt out of the system" don't play the, "please date me" game. As long as a woman is looking at you as "dating material" you don't have a chance.

[B. Serum]

Doc' Trauma

Dude, if all you're being is nice, why would a girl be anything but nice to you? Nice is good, but it ain't the whole package.

There's a difference between the nice guy and the good one: the good one is nice PLUS is exiting, successful, interesting, sexual, capable and independent. They have boundaries and will push back when taken advatage of.

Take a look at yourself? If a girl is little more than "nice," does that fulfill your qualifications?

I bet it doesn't.

[sWitchazel]

FWIW, this link came up in one of the previous threads on this topic:

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

[msmith537]

Doc' Trauma
An Earlier post mentioned something about being a spinless doormat. How does one not be a spineless doormat and continue to be nice...I know it's all about balance but how do you show people that you're a confident individual without trying to show that you're a confident individual?




You want to appear to confident:
1) Be a man damit - Forget that John Cusak movie sensitive guy bullshit. Girls want a man. They don't want another girlfriend who happens to have a penis.

2) Don't BE a doormat - Not being the shoulder to cry on after the guy who your ex-girlfriend cheated on you with breaks up with her is a good start. Be the guy who your ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend is worried she'll go back to.

The last thing you want is to be the grinning idiot digging some sorority girls car out of the snow while she's off blowing her boyfriend.

3) Don't be a dork - I'll give you an example. Half the guys in my fraternity were nice guys with good grades, lots of extraciricular activies, neat attire. The other half were social retards who drank and did drugs all the time and acted like 5 year olds (kind of like if the Tri-Lams from Revenge of the Nerds shared the same house as the Deltas from Animal House). Guess who got laid more?

4) Be a LITTLE sketchy - No one want's to be around some perfect person. It's boring. People like a little taste of danger, not a violent psychopath.

5) Drink or do drugs - Girls seem to be impressed by a man who can hold his liquor. Be careful though because no one likes a sloppy moron.

6) They're just girls - Nothing sounds more pathetic than a bunch of guys gawking over some super-hot girl they are afraid to talk to. Did you see that commerical for Universal Studios or something where the two dorks are talking about what they would do if they ever met Alysa Milano? When she hops on the tram next to them all they can do is sit there with their thumbs up their asses. I'd like to think I'd at least be able to manage a "hey..what's up..." just for the story.

7) Be casual - Let her be the one to bug you for a committment.

8) Don't be like everyone else - Why should a girl go out with you over the 500 other kakhi and J Crew shirt wearing guys she sees every day?

9) Quit whining - nobody likes a whiner

10) BE confident - A "confident" person doesn't need to show everyone he's confident. He just is. It has nothing to do with bands or motorcycles. Any idiot can buy a bike or a guitar.

[Tiram]

Originally posted by MikeRochenelle
I recommend you read up on Ladder Theory. (http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html)
Amazing:D Poor guy...

[msmith537]

Oh and I almost forgot:

Don't be afraid to say "NO" once and awhile - Nowhere is it written that you have to do something everytime someone asks.

[rocking chair]

there are 2 guys in my church that on the surface are "nice" guys. on the surface mind you. many people wonder why they are unattached. i'll tell you why...

one is a bit of a showboat. if he can't run the show or be seen doing something he will disappear. he also has a fast, scary, temper. if things aren't going his way he will throw something. if someone is doing something he doesn't like, he will grab them rather forcefully. he will only show that temper if he thinks no one will see him. i saw it on 2 occasions both times he did not see me. otherwise he is very friendly, helpful, and can be rather attentive to details concerning peoples likes and dislikes. i wouldn't want him to know where i live.

the other guy is searching for something to give his life some meaning. he has bounced from church to church, religion to religion, searching. if you show him the least amount of attention he will grab you like you are the last lifeboat on the titanic. saying "hi", to him can have him thinking you are "the one." he is not secure enough in himself. most women will say "there's something about x.... i'm not sure what," upon meeting him. il also don't want him to know where i live, not even a vague idea.

both guys have gone out with people but it doesn't last long. both are nice up to a point, but not past aquaintance.

[Cyn]

Originally posted by Doc' Trauma
How does one not be a spineless doormat and continue to be nice...I know it's all about balance but how do you show people that you're a confident individual without trying to show that you're a confident individual?

Nothing wrong with showing your confidence---where did you get the idea that being visibly confident was bad? Letting women who've rejected you cry on your shoulder sounds more like dishrag than doormat, but neither is sexy....

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by jesleigh
Personally, I find guys are the same way...here I am a great girl (really, I am), you know pretty, smart, God-fearin' southern girl. I cook, clean, and all the feminine stuff. My friends tell me I have a great personality, but do I get dates? NO! And way not you ask...probably becuase guys aren't looking for nice girls either ;)

Sometimes this god-fearing business gets to people :)

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MikeRochenelle
Girls want a guy who is rich and successful. Failing that they want a guy who is exciting and will bring romance and drama to their lives. Failing that they will settle for a nice guy, but he probably won't get laid much.

I recommend you read up on Ladder Theory. (http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html)

If that's in fact the case, the human race would have died a lot time ago due to excessive inbreeding.

[jesleigh]

Well, Urban Ranger, I'm not giving up my relationship with God just for a guy...If he can not respect my beliefs than I have no use for him

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by CrazyCatLady
Anyway, the upshot of it was this: It sounds like you're focusing way to much on the outward signs of niceness and not on real, honest-to-goodness niceness. A true nice guy may not treat anyone like a princess, but he treats everyone well, with courtesy and respect. He's understanding and sympathetic, but honest enough to tell you when you're wrong. He's not showing you what he thinks you want to see, he's just being who he is.

I don't want or need anyone to dance attendance on me and buy me ice cream. I can get my own ice cream, thank you very much. Yeah, it's nice when someone buys it for me, but it's also completely unnecessary.

What matters is the affection and respect which is supposed to prompt that sort of thing, and the ability to return said affection and respect. I can love and respect someone who forgets my birthday, but I can't respect someone who lets me ride roughshod over him.

Yup, that pretty much sums it up.

You must first have respect for yourself, which includes not letting anybody runs you over. Niceness involves a certain amount of conciliation, but you must have a core of steel.

You must also have confidence, proably a sort of quiet condidence coming from knowing you excel at something.

Having some kind of passionate hobby or interest helps too. That help you with focusing yourself, and rubbing your passion off on others.

[Daffodil5]

I knew a guy in college who always thought of himself as a nice guy. He had a crush on one of my roommates, so he'd always drop by with ice cream or candy for all four of us. It gave me the creeps for some reason, so I was always careful to say no thanks to anything he tried to give me or buy for me. He seemed perfectly pleasant, but I just don't like letting men buy things for me.

One day, I was helping one of his roommates with a paper, and I heard him walk into the kitchen of their suite and start breaking things, yelling about how he'd bought my roommate and her friends all this stuff, and he was so nice to her, and she still hadn't agreed to date him. It sounded almost as though he thought that if he spent x time and y dollars on a girl, she must owe him z affection. I locked the door and stayed there with his roommate whispering to me that the raging maniac outside was really a nice guy and how we should go out and talk to him. No way. After he'd gone I saw that he'd smashed the kitchen wall in three places.

Now, I'll agree that she shouldn't have accepted gifts from a guy she had no intention of ever dating (she was gorgeous, well-respected in student government, and intelligent, he was not so attractive, kind of shy and self-pitying, but very book-smart). However, gifts should be freely given, with no strings attached. Anyway, that's why it always bothers me when a guy describes himself as nice.

No offense intended to you Doc. If I can suggest one thing to you though, maybe look around and see if there are some girls who are more your match in terms of looks, education, and interests. Don't go after a perfect ten unless you're at least an 8. If you're a 4, stick with 3-5's. Women, at least the women I know, do want a guy who's considerate, kind, witty, good with kids, etc. However, it all has to add up in a little tally sheet. If a guy is short and unattractive, he'd better be amazingly brilliant, fun to be around, and spend his weekends volunteering for Habitat for Humanity (I once dated a guy like that, and I was able to answer all the questioning looks from friends and relatives with a list of his wonderful qualities that more than made up for his Star Trek battle figures and slight paunch).

[lorinada]

I'll quit yawning at these "I'm a nice guy, why can't I get dates" threads when I no longer see men panting like dogs in heat after every snooty, high maintenance bitch who ever put themselves on a pedestal. ;)

[AHunter3]

Oh holy fuck.

1) If it is YOU to be gentle and sensitive, be gentle and sensitive. Do not under any circumstances try to be something you are not, especially if that something is an overpopularized rendition of "masculinity", whatever the fuck THAT may be, that makes you want to throw up or shoot to kill every time you see it manifested in other guys and doubly so when you see them getting the girls.

2) Lissen up, fellow. "Nice" and "passive" are both euphemisms for "not sexually aggressive enough", and even THAT is a euphemism for "not more sexually aggressive than the female". You aren't comfortable with the expectation that you, as "the male", should be more sexually aggressive than the females in whom you are interested? Cool. Hold your head high and be proud of it. Be fucking snooty about it. You're a nice guy, a rare catch by virtue of being gentle and unpushy, but you just aint available to females who can't figure out how to hook up with a guy unless he pushes himself on her more strongly than she pushes herself on him. Repeat after me: their loss.

3) You may find it necessary from time to time to come out of the closet and explain that this is how you are and that you are this way proudly and would not change; that you are not failing to be some kind of manipulative sexual conquistador while wishing you were.

4) You are allowed to tease. You can imply that you are available or that you might have interest under some unstated circumstances. However, you can be sweet and wish well those who aren't doing anything much to collect on it or figure it out. Remember always: yes you need it; but no, you don't need it today or from this specific person. Much as they do, and don't.

5) Yes they do. Yes it does. But you do have to advertise. And take your anger over all of this and turn it into some goddam pride. Yeah, pride definitely helps.

[Zoe]

I cook, clean, and all the feminine stuff.

That statement made my flesh crawl. Being feminine also includes being savvy, being multi-faceted and having a diversified portfolio.[/hijack]

I agree that confidence is the sexiest attribute that a person can have. Women never put "nice guy" at the top of what they desire in a male. They are much more specific:

1. confidence
2. integrity
3. sense of humor
4. intelligence

and so forth...

If you want to have confidence, then you must learn to love yourself. And before you can love yourself, you have to know who you are. That requires a lot of thinking. It requires that you develop your own personality based on your interests.

As for those guys who ride motorcycles and play in a band, they can be nice too. The two aren't exclusive of each other. What they do have is that they do things that are fun and interesting.

Begin to find yourself and be yourself and the rest will take care of itself.

Usually it is only shallow women who put rich at the top of their lists. And you don't want shallow women anyway.

One more suggestion. Generally, women like men who are clean and wear clean clothes.

[Guinastasia]

That Heartless Bitch article nailed it.

Oh, and the so-called "Nice Guy" who was obsessed with me also had a really nasty temper. He once took a knife to his parents, sent a nasty letter to an ex who called the cops on him, and after he moved, his best friend told me that once when they were playing a friendly basketball game, and this guy lost, he started smashing windows.

*shudder*

[MikeRochenelle]

plain_jane
Contrary to what is said here during these types of threads, I don't want a jerk. I am not going to be on this earth a long time, I'd like to enjoy myself, and that means surrounding myself with positive, happy people.

Let me amend my first post to this thread and add the qualifier "most" before every occurance of "women." I.e., most women are more interested in rich and/or exciting guys than nice guys. There are certanly exceptions... but they are rarer than most people would like to admit. There is a hell of a lot of uncomfortable truth in Degrance's post that most women will never, ever admit.

I'm not just picking on women here by any means. There are a LOT of guys out there who claim not to find princess bitches attractive. 99% of those men are flat out lying to themselves.

I refuse to elevate anyone. Men and women both suck and both are highly delusional about relationships. If someone starts a "Why do men not like nice girls" thread I'll be right there bashing on men. We are just as stupid as women are.

bodypoet
After living with a mean SOB for ten years, "nice" was very high on my list of criteria.

Forgive me if I don't take your denial of my point very seriouly, consider you just admitted you stayed with a mean SOB for *TEN YEARS*.

What was I saying about everyone being highly self-delusional about relationships?


Read Ladder Theory. Read the Heartless Bitches article. Quit sitting around in denial. Quit being a "nice guy."

I just broke up with a girl recently because I could tell she had no interest in having sex with me. I am so happy with that decision I can't tell you. If I were a nice guy like I used to be, what would I have done? And would I be tying myself in emotional knots right now?

I'll say it again - stop being a "nice guy."


-Ben

[Pixelle]

MikeRochenelle , I was pretty much in agreement with you here up until you recommended that Ladder theory.

Although it does contain some home truths, I think on the whole it's pretty offensive. Anything that contains that many generalizations about women isn't to be taken seriously IMO.

It's pigeonholeing men too by assuming that all men want to fuck every woman they find even remotely attractive. Although thats true of a lot of men, it's not true of all men.

[plain_jane]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MikeRochenelle
..I.e., most women are more interested in rich and/or exciting guys than nice guys. There are certanly exceptions... but they are rarer ...Men and women both suck... I refuse to elevate anyone.

Yeah, we, as humans in general, sometimes suck. And I'm not trying to elevate anyone, either. I'm just saying my reality is different from what you have described.

I can't really argue "most" with you because I don't have data either way. However, I must say, in my own circle of girlfriends and female aquaintances with whom I have discussed this, I must say, money is not an issue. I would say most of us prefer a man who is at least doing something with his life (working, school, whatever). I know women who want rich men and men who want supermodels exist... I'm just saying, a good chunk of us don't care about that crap.

And I'm not entirely sure what you mean by exciting, except I'm presuming you mean, as in, "slightly dangerous". I dunno. I prefer stability and harmony.