I love DNA testing... Can we kill this guy, now?

[Heloise]

http://www.msnbc.com/local/knsd/a1639963.asp?vts=6120030807

To summarize, 17 years after the fact, this 14 year old girl's rapist/murderer has been found thanks to DNA testing. Her parents can finally feel some kind of relief that the monster has been caught. I can't imagine the pain of what they went through all this time, knowing that their daughter's killer hadn't been caught. I can't imagine what she may have gone through the last few hours of her life. But, I can feel rage over it. I can sympathize. I'm glad technology came through this time.

I'm often iffy about the death penalty, but not this time.

[Optihut]

I'm often iffy about the death penalty, but not this time.

Now that's odd, I would imagine that on hot topics like the death penalty, there simply are no exceptions.
My personal stance stands unaltered: While a lot of people deserve a death sentence, it gives me the creeps when a government feels it has the obligation and the right to carry it out.

So, even in this case, I for one don't want a death sentence, but rather would see the more expensive (and allegedly more inhumane) life long prison time.

[Zenster]

Try him and fry him.

[Ogre]

and allegedly more inhumane

And more expensive. If there is a guy for whom the death penalty was made, he's it.

2.4 billion to one against.

"We're moving you to the head of the line!"

[RTFirefly]

I don't get it. Why are so many so eager to let him off easy?

Force him to live inside his own head for a very, very long time.

Or force him to survive amidst the general prison population. Whichever.

[The Man With The Golden Gun]

Reminds me of a quote from a science fiction book:

"Ah hell, let's just kill 'em."

[Revtim]

I read a while back that execution actually costs the state more than life imprisonment, what with appeals and such. No cites or anything, sorry.

[Cardinal]

Are you sure that "letting him live in his own head" is really a punishment? Can we get a guarantee of his level of guilt and remorse?

[iampunha]

Make him work the rest of his days to provide some restitution to the family he has hurt. Killing him is just another life wasted (not that, so far, he hasn't done anything to ensure his own is hardly a standard-bearer).

[I Love Me, Vol. I]

nope. we cannot kill this guy now. if we did, we'd be no better than he.

[Ogre]

Ha ha. What bullshit. If we raped him then murdered him, we'd be no better than he.

It may, as iampunha says, be a case of another life wasted. That's a difficult question and the heart, I believe, of the death-penalty debate. I personally do not believe that capital punishment = murder.

[Baker]

Just for once I wish we had one of the technologies pictured on ST-TNG. Can't remember what episode it was, but Riker was convicted of murder. It wasn't capital punishment on their planet, but the implantation of memories, what thevictim went through. This would play through the murderer's head at least once a day for the rest of their life. Which usually wasn't very long, because those convicted tended to suicide.

[RTFirefly]

Originally posted by Cardinal
Are you sure that "letting him live in his own head" is really a punishment? Can we get a guarantee of his level of guilt and remorse? You've paired a couple of oddly antithetical questions, Cardinal, suggesting that you (a) want this guy to experience a thoroughgoing punishment, and (b) you want him (if the punishment doesn't involve death) to experience guilt and remorse.

From everything I've heard (plus my own comparatively trivial experience) living inside one's head (without the distractions of people, activities, and whatnot) is hardest for those who haven't come to terms with themselves and their actions.

IOW, the less repentance, the greater the punishment. I was personally angling for punishment.

[HerMajestyLorna]

Thank God he has been found. I am sure this gives some sense of relief to the family, knowing he is not out in society any longer.

I don't advocate the death penalty for anything though. Even this.

[MLS]

Life in prison is too good for such scum. He is a waste of skin. Even if he's not happy in prison, he still gets to eat, breathe, probably gets to see the sky from time to time, work out in the weight room, watch t.v., all kinds of good stuff that the victim can't. He probably would not spend his time being sorry for what he did. And he has gotten all the intervening years to enjoy in whatever sick manner he takes pleasure in. IMO the only imprisonment that would be appropriate punishment would be the rest of his life in a dark dungeon with no windows and lots of vermin like himself. Since we don't do that, just do away with him. Not with some nice painless lethal injection, either. Maybe a nice slow hanging.

[racer72]

Ahh, another expesive murder trial and the tax payers of King County are going to foot the bill. We already have the Green River Killer (http://serialchic.crimespider.com/GRK.html) trial coming up and the prosecutors office is asking for another million for expenses. The defense lawyers have already gotten 1.5 million and they are asking for more. And the suspect, Gary Ridgeway, is only being tried for 4 of the 35 or so killings. I guess its the price we pay to put murderers away.

[racer72]

Whoops, should have read the story linked by the OP first. Seattle has a case of someone being arrested 21 years after the alledged killing. The person charged (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/123134_oldmurder22.html) is now fighting extradition.

[Cardinal]

From everything I've heard (plus my own comparatively trivial experience) living inside one's head (without the distractions of people, activities, and whatnot) is hardest for those who haven't come to terms with themselves and their actions.

IOW, the less repentance, the greater the punishment. I was personally angling for punishment. I honestly don't get this. So Charles Manson is being punished MORE because he has no remorse? Do you mean that he's punished more because he's imprisoned for something he's not sorry for? Is that supposed to be more disturbing than knowing you've done something reprehensible?

[Barbarian]

Did the state where the crime occured have a young offenders act of any kind? 'Cuz this guy will be charged with whatever was on the books when he was 14 years old...

and Ogre and Optihut, the death penalty costs more money than life in prison. It's about $2 million v. $660, 000 according to a site I came across last week and am kicking myself for not bookmarking.

[Optihut]

Well, if it's more expensive, then the last argument for a death penalty goes out of the window as it is morally wrong anyway.

[Zenster]

From what I remember of an old article, all death penalty cases must be heard by the supreme court and that's a $1,000,000.00 price tag, right there.

I see nothing immoral about making sure that vicious scum are removed from society. We cannot afford to build an endless chain of prisons. Let's make room for other offenders like, rapists and child molesters by executing the most heinous criminals.

I am also obliged to wonder if that $660,000.00 figure includes things like the enormous overtime pay many prison guards receive due to hiring freezes. There is also an aspect of overcrowded prisons that force district attorneys to plea bargain just so that criminals do some sort of hard time.

This results in lesser periods of incarceration, which flushes out insufficiently rehabilitated criminals into society where their repeat offenses cause even more suffering and financial loss. There are so many hidden factors that incur expenses well beyond that $660,000.00 figure where I cannot justify any opposition to the death penalty. The Ted Bundys, John Wayne Gaceys and Green River Killers of this world need to be shuffled off of this mortal coil forcibly if that's what it takes.

Society must be unfettered by those who cannot be bothered with cohesive behavior. I'm bloody sick of providing college education for lifers while our youth struggle to find jobs. The prison population should have to perform manual labor in order to compensate the victims of their crimes and it should involve a lot of sweat and exertion.

[Tranquilis]

He's not worth our time, angst, or energy. Put him down (kill him) mercifully, and let's get on with our lives.

[Tranquilis]

He's not worth our time, angst, or energy. Put him down (kill him) mercifully, and let's get on with our lives.

[Tranquilis]

And apparently, I feel really strongly about that. :p

[Exgineer]

Your boyfriend is unconditionally opposed to the death penalty, and I think you should discuss this case with him.

But, yeah, I agree with you. If he's proven guilty in court, stick the needle in his arm.

It's not revenge, because he'll have a far gentler death than his victim had.

It's just because we don't need people like him around, and our children will be safer for his abence from the planet.

[Little Nemo]

Did the state where the crime occured have a young offenders act of any kind? 'Cuz this guy will be charged with whatever was on the books when he was 14 years old...
The victim was 14. George Williams was 30 when he committed the crime.

[js_africanus]

In the only blind study that I'm aware of, DNA testing labs had a false positive rate of about one out of one-hundred. So of all the possible people who could have committed the crime, one percent can be expected to test positive. So how many people in the greater San Diego area who could have gotten to that girl? Let's be conservative and say 500,000 possible men. Then our man has about a one in five-thousand chance of being guilty based on the evidence presented.

The criminalist, of course, is a dishonest piece of shit by committing the Prosecutor's Fallacy when she should know better. First off, she's the one who should be taken out back and shot.

If you want to get technical, you'd have to come up with the conditional probability [Prob. Guilty|random match & sex offender], but that's still going to be a far cry from the odds shit-eating puke-bag criminologist is giving. Even then you'd have to consider that a previous rapist/murderer going back into the rape-only mode for several crimes seems unlikely (?). Is it very likely that a serial rapist would start his career with a rape/murder and then ratchet the violence down to commit only rapes?

Regardless of whether the guy did it, what the news story gives us is A Situation Worth Investigating that is being paraded around in the press as Rock-Solid Evidence Of Guilt by the prosecutor and the criminalist when they should know better.

For more on this issue, please refer to Gerd Gigerenzer's "Calculated Risks" available through Amazon or your local book store.

[Heloise]

Originally posted by Exgineer
Your boyfriend is unconditionally opposed to the death penalty, and I think you should discuss this case with him.

But, yeah, I agree with you. If he's proven guilty in court, stick the needle in his arm.

It's not revenge, because he'll have a far gentler death than his victim had.

It's just because we don't need people like him around, and our children will be safer for his abence from the planet.

Are you talking to me, here? If so, yes, I know. We have different opinions on the death penalty. But, I've found that "life imprisonment" where he is is much worse than ours, so if I couldn't have the death penalty, I would prefer his country's version of life to ours.

[Blalron]

Whenever I see documentaries or movies about the Death Penalty, what strikes me the most is that these killers usually have friends and family that care about them. They aren't completely evil most of the time.

I don't think the value of your life should be measured by the worst thing you have done.

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by Heloise
Are you talking to me, here? If so, yes, I know. We have different opinions on the death penalty. But, I've found that "life imprisonment" where he is is much worse than ours, so if I couldn't have the death penalty, I would prefer his country's version of life to ours. Life in general, or just life imprisonment? ;)

To clarify: if someone's declared criminally insane over here (say, the sort of guys Texas ends up putting on the chair), they can get life imprisonment with governmental disposal, which means they get locked up in a very restrictive psychiatric prison for the rest of their lives, with very few visitation rights. Our penal system is geared towards rehabilitation, but when it is proven beyond a doubt that you can NOT be rehabilitated, chances are you won't see the outside of a prison, ever again. This country tends to have a reputation for being lax in its punishment, but it's not entirely deserved.

[Martiju]

Originally posted by Blalron
Whenever I see documentaries or movies about the Death Penalty, what strikes me the most is that these killers usually have friends and family that care about them. They aren't completely evil most of the time.

I don't think the value of your life should be measured by the worst thing you have done.

This is kind of a drive-by - as I was about to say exactly what Blalron said!

Apart from all the other arguments against capital punishment, it is more of a punishment for the family and friends of the convicted killer. Look at it this way - once the execution is done it's all over for the criminal. Those close to him not only live with the knowledge of what he has done (or worse - convicted of but perhaps not done) but also have lost a son, brother, husband or father (assuming a male).

To be honest too - I wonder whether the victim's family ever really feel truly satisfied about the death sentence. It doesn't bring back their loved ones and, I can only guess, perhaps actually adds the guilt of having been instrumental in somebody else's death.

[Ludovic]

The additional punishment meted out in the form of the death penalty is not worth the many times we would murder an innocent victim via incorrect prosecution. Period.

[Martiju]

Originally posted by Ludovic
The additional punishment meted out in the form of the death penalty is not worth the many times we would murder an innocent victim via incorrect prosecution. Period.

Absolutely. It's bad enough holding people in prison for years on unsafe sentences let alone taking their lives for it and, as I say, therefore multiplying the distress of all those involved.

At least here in the UK capital punishment is no more. I do find it hard to believe that some sophisticated countries still herald its use... :(

[Annie-Xmas]

Originally posted by Ogre
Ha ha. What bullshit. If we raped him then murdered him, we'd be no better than he.

No. If we raped and murdered an innocent 14 year old child, we'd be no better than he.

[El Elvis Rojo]

To my understanding, the true point of the death penalty isn't just to avenge the death of a person, but to help keep society safe from the possibility of repeat offenses by a harmful person.

If he had spent the past 17 years as a fruit vendor and family man, and kept his nose clean and been an upright citizen for all this time, then I would feel the death penalty would be way off for a punishment. But the story says he "has committed several sexual assaults.. ", so obviously, this wasn't just a one time occurrance (with the exception of the actual murder aspect of this particular case). This man is obviously a danger to society. The fact this particular case happened so long ago does put a bit of a confusing spin on whether or not the death penalty for this particular case is still relevant, but he obviously isn't hurting that he did it, because he wouldn't have become a repeat offender.

Plus, there are many cases of people being executed decades after the crime they were convicted of, so maybe it's not too late. I do believe some people do deserve the death penalty...this one, I'm not quite sure of, but I do believe he needs to be put away for the rest of his life if nothing else.

[Bippy the Beardless]

js_africanus do you have a web cite for that DNA blind study? I would very much like to have a look at that. I have a lot of doubts about how uniformally distributed DNA test results are, and question the assumption that uf you match DNA test, then you are that person.
Maybe if everyone was DNA tested we'd know for sure how many people 'match' each other.
Back to OP the person if guilty needs to be taken out of society (even based on their other convictions, excluding this murder) until they are no longer a threat to others. Bit I don't see how killing him (even if we can know without possibility of error that he is guilty) can help. There seems to be no economic advantage in death penalty. From a persons spiritual point of view, I think even the most heinous murderers should be given any and all opportunity to make peace within their own religious beliefs.

[El Elvis Rojo]

Originally posted by Bippy the Beardless
From a persons spiritual point of view, I think even the most heinous murderers should be given any and all opportunity to make peace within their own religious beliefs.

Just out of curiosity, is there any religious doctrine out there that doesn't at some point preach the importance of corporal punishment? I mean, even the Old Testiment gives descriptions of events where it's okay to kill under God's law. Just because religion tends to be more on the side of the "Live and Let Live" vibe, doesn't mean they don't believe in the death penalty. Many religions (if not all) started off in small communities/tribes, and a big part of keeping those going is protecting them, thus, any member of the tribe that threatened its existence would be removed threw religious law.

Maybe it's too much of a hijack to get into...

[Optihut]

Coldfire wrote:
if someone's declared criminally insane over here (say, the sort of guys Texas ends up putting on the chair)

What chair? The electrical or the presidential? :p