What's the deal with goths, anyway?

[samarm]

So, I'm walking down the street, minding my own. Three goths walking on the other side of the street. One of them shouts at me "I bet you like young boys!", and they all laughed. I was so suprised that I couldn't think of anything witty to retort with. This experience stuck with me, and it's been bothering me.

Anyway, got me thinking how I've never met a goth who was a normal, friendly kind of person. They all think that other people are looking down on them and that they need to prove their lifestyle by being in your face.

It might just be me, but they seem to be mostly kids who are pissed off with life and think that by dressing in black clothes, wearing pale makeup and listening to bleak and depressing music, that they are rebelling against the system. To me they just seem like sad lost souls who would rather drop out than deal with life's problems.

Maybe I've got it all wrong. Maybe I'm prejudiced. What's the deal with these people, anyway?

[Loneraven]

Um... I wear black. Have a dog collar, too. With rather nice spiky bits. Am looking into getting hold of some black 'n' silver boots. Don't wear pale makeup, as it doesn't work on my skin, but that's by the bye.

IMHO, it's a style. I don't know why it's associated with such an I-hate-the-world mentality, but I don't think it should be. For me it's just a style, a certain taste in clothes. I do wish the clothes I wear weren't associated with a negative stereotype, but you can't help what you like, and my clothes are just clothes that suit me.

YMMV. I realise I may not be typical of the teenage angst brigade.

[Dogface]

The goth's I've known have generally either been of three types:

Neurotic.
Antisocial.
Completely Lacking Fashion Sense.

Some are a mixture of any two or all three of the above. Generally, the last is the most common, with a mixture of the first and last being next most common.

[ParentalAdvisory]

...And they seem to prefer Denny's at 04:00 in the morning.

[LolaCocaCola]

Originally posted by samarm
I was so suprised that I couldn't think of anything witty to retort with.

Hmmmm...

I think if you had responded with:

"And I'll bet you are wearin' the panties yer momma laid out for ya!"


That would've startled them.

[LolaCocaCola]

Or maybe it would've gotten yer ass kicked.

I'm not quite sure.

[Mockingbird]

Some are goth because of their accoutrements.

Some are considered goth because of their natural attitude, sans affectiation. One can have an attitude considered goth without being nasty to others, nihilistic, or self-destructive.

[msmith537]

samarm
I was so suprised that I couldn't think of anything witty to retort with.



You should have said "YO!! MASCARA BOY!!! 'The Cure' FUCKING SUCKS!!"

Why does anyone dress in a manner that's unconventional or wear a hairstyle purely for schock value? For attention. Maybe They can't get positive attention through normal stuff so they try and get negative attention. Maybe everyone picks on them anyway so this way they can tell themselves it's because of how they dress, not because their jerks. Who knows?

[XJETGIRLX]

Originally posted by msmith537
Why does anyone dress in a manner that's unconventional or wear a hairstyle purely for schock value?

Or maybe they just happen to find it aesthetically more appealing than a three piece monkey suit? But no, of course anyone who looks different is only doing it because they want to shock you. No one in the world has a unique sense of style, or thinks that stuff like collars, boots, spikes, fishnet tights or renaissance dresses actually looks good, it's just to get attention.

Christ. :rolleyes:

[samarm]

loneraven: I can totally understand where you are coming from, and I wouldn't presume to stereotype all people who wear black clothes as dysfunctional, and I meant no offense to any person in particular.

Of course everybody has a certain style. However, the goth style seems to have become a whole stream of fashion of its own. There are too many people who dress like this for it to be coincidence.

I guess being a goth gives you a sense of belonging to a kind of lifestyle club. You tend to hang out with other like minded people, listen to the same kind of music etc.

Unfortunately, goth lifestyle often presents the image of anti-social, intrevert self-inflicted depressives. Or maybe it's just a phase some kids have to go through... OK I'll stop now as I've started rambling!

btw, in hindsight it was probably best that I didn't reply to the insult shouted at me in the street. You never know what kind of spiky metal things these goths have on their body. :)

[XJETGIRLX]

samarm I think perhaps you're just painting goths with too broad a brush, and labelling every strangely-clad, dark young figure you meet as such. There are a thousand shades of individuality and creativity, and style that may look goth but aren't.

[samarm]

Just wanted to post a quick reply to XJETXGIRLX: I think you may be right. I admit I'm pretty "square", so I can understand how that may be possible.

[msmith537]

Originally posted by XJETGIRLX
Or maybe they just happen to find it aesthetically more appealing than a three piece monkey suit? But no, of course anyone who looks different is only doing it because they want to shock you. No one in the world has a unique sense of style, or thinks that stuff like collars, boots, spikes, fishnet tights or renaissance dresses actually looks good, it's just to get attention.

Christ. :rolleyes: [/B]

No one sits around in a three piece suit if they aren't at work.

People's clothing is an expression of how they want the world to perceive them. When I wear my blue Brooks Brothers suit and a power tie, I am trying to be percieved as important. When I wear an untucked Armani shirt and jeans with messed up hair, I am expressing myself as a hip, fun guy looking to party. When I wear cargo shorts, a ratty thermal long sleve T under an old T-shirt, I am expressing that I am so cool, I don't have to hide behind fancy clothes - or I just threw on the first thing I found.

Wearing 5 earings in your face, black spikey hair, fishnets and black on black generally is a statement of something more than "The Crow" is my favorite movie.

[Ally424]

My group of friends are average 18-early 20 year olds, and for the first time one of my good buddies brought a goth guy to my party last weekend. It was a little intimidating because I didn't think he would fit in very well with us. I had a talk with him and turns out he's very depressed, and grew up in a Catholic household with very narrowminded parents, who "can't understand that he likes to wear black, nor accept the fact that he is a wicken(sp)". Basically, a witch ? Anyway, I haven't really had much experience with goth-like people, but from the few experiences I have had, they have all had rough childhoods and "they dress how they are feeling inside". That's about it. What's funny to me is, or odd rather, is that I find most of these people who dress goth-like, do so because they want to be different , too. But the fact is, EVERYONE dresses to express themselves creatively, and such, so in actuality, by attempting to dress "differently", you are actually following a crowd. Everyone fits into some sort of crowd, no matter how you choose to see it.

[Guinastasia]

Actually, there are several goths right here at the SDMB who are pretty freaking cool.

IANAG, but I do LOVE the Victorian/Medieval Goth look. Crushed velvet, black lace, corsets, fishnet stockings and lush dark jewel tones. The Romantic Goth look.

[Bippy the Beardless]

Cor, what a lot of prejudice in one small thread.
Seems a lot of you guys should try dressing up more and living on the wild side so to speak. If you can't manage that, then next time you meet someone whose clothes confuse you, say something like 'Those boots are really cool.' if you start positive you'll soon find most 'wierdos' are just like you really. As XJETGIRLX said there are many people who might look Goth to you who simply aren't. It is getting to the stage that anyone who is Goth tends not to say they are Goth for fear of being confused with Marilyn Mansun fans or whatever.
What makes a "True Goth" is as difficult a question as what makes a "True Scotsman". But here is my attempt: A true Goth would be far less likely to be rude to someone else than a Frat boy would. A "True Goth" may have an interest in 'Gothic horror' maybe an interest in the more decorative clothing styles of the nineteenth century, a liking for 'artsy' music, be influenced by the lifestyles and works of the romantic poets like Byron and Yeates (sp?), follow the music of people with similar interests.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Ummm...I live in a small Southern almost-no-goths city, & the local fratboys scream abuse at people when they drive by. And they're the crewcut/preppy set.

It ain't the style, it's the substance, or lack thereof.

[XJETGIRLX]

Originally posted by msmith537
No one sits around in a three piece suit if they aren't at work.

Oh no? Tell that to my ex who owned a closet of nothing but expensive italian suits and tuxedos, yet was unemployed for years on end.

People's clothing is an expression of how they want the world to perceive them. When I wear my blue Brooks Brothers suit and a power tie, I am trying to be percieved as important. When I wear an untucked Armani shirt and jeans with messed up hair, I am expressing myself as a hip, fun guy looking to party. When I wear cargo shorts, a ratty thermal long sleve T under an old T-shirt, I am expressing that I am so cool, I don't have to hide behind fancy clothes - or I just threw on the first thing I found.

Not definitively true. I don't dress based on how I want to be seen. I dress for comfort, and how I like to see myself. If you knew anything about personality theory you would understand that not all are as externally focused in their motivations as you appear to be. My motives don't stem from what external stimulus they will create. I like to wear combat boots because they're comfortable, and I like the way they support my fragile ankles. I also like that I have the added protection of being able to kick the shit out of someone should the need arise.

I wear a cross because I like the constant reminder of my faith, and I like the symbolism in the form itself.

I wear lots of dark eye make-up because I don't like the way I look without it. I feel like my eyeliner gives my gaze a certain steely strength I'm not able to create otherwise, and I like the feeling of hiding behind dark lashes when I want to be left alone.

Wearing 5 earings in your face, black spikey hair, fishnets and black on black generally is a statement of something more than "The Crow" is my favorite movie.

Yes, it says that I'm someone who is comfortable enough with myself to express my inner sense of beauty honestly, openly and without regard for those who would judge me based on something so superficial as appearance alone.

[Troy McClure SF]

FWIW, the few goths I've known were very intelligent and open-minded, and I always looked forward to spending time with them.

Originally posted by msmith537
Why does anyone dress in a manner that's unconventional or wear a hairstyle purely for schock value?
For some reason, I'm reminded of Apple's 1984 commercial.

Maybe everyone picks on them anyway so this way they can tell themselves it's because of how they dress, not because their jerks.

:dubious:

Maybe they don't have any problem at all, and folks need to realize that looks don't necessarily have anything to do with personality. As much as I hate to do so, I'll recommend to you Bowling for Columbine, in which Marilyn Manson comes off far more intelligent than most people who spout their opinions in front of a camera.

[Nocturne]

Uhm. I'm what a lot of people would call a "goth," and I'm a pretty damn cheerful, perky person. I don't revel in death, but I can appreciate the darker side of things. I think one can do that without being goth.

I like the style of clothing, some of the music, the whole subculture itself...sure, some goths annoy me, just like some hippies annoy me, some emo kids annoy me, etc.

I don't really have any piercings except in my ears, I don't wear the makeup often during the summer, and most of my clothes are nearly-formal. People often ask me why I'm so dressed up.

I just don't like the stupid stereotypes about goths. I don't assume everyone with bleached-blond hair wearing Abercrombie & Fitch is a capitalistic whore who listens to stupid music, has stupid ideas, and is probably a waste of oxygen.

[Flutterby]

I semi-flirt along the edges of goth.. most of the time I'm a pretty casual person unless I need or want to dress up. Some of my clothes have a faintly gothic flair, mostly by accident I think. I don't have to worry about makeup much thanks to my naturally pale complexion.. Just a little black here and red there and I look grand.

I personally have found most of the goths I know to be fairly sane well adjusted people. Some did have problems, were/are depressed and/or angry people etc.. but not more so than any other group I've been known to associate with. (Which ranges from Candy Ravers and Goths to fairly 'normal' seeming well adjusted adults/young adults. Get togethers of my friends are strange and wonderful things.)

I will say though that some goths probably do cling to the whole 'us against them' thing and continually agonize more 'normal' people. But then so do some from a more visibly different group (whether in that group by choice or not)

[msmith537]

Originally posted by Troy McClure SF
FWIW, the few goths I've known were very intelligent and open-minded, and I always looked forward to spending time with them.
[/B]

Are they open minded about people who wear J.Crew clothes and keep their hair neat? Or do they think that they are capitalist whores who are just waiting to start picking on them?

[Troy McClure SF]

Originally posted by msmith537
Are they open minded about people who wear J.Crew clothes and keep their hair neat?

Yes.

Or do they think that they are capitalist whores who are just waiting to start picking on them?

No.

Who's picking on who here?

[DougC]

- - - I think that if you go out of your way to look silly, you shouldn't bitch at being treated like a clown.
-----
...No one sits around in a three piece suit if they aren't at work....
- Ehhh, , , have you ever heard of the cartoonist Robert Crumb? Now that is one lost puppy. (-warning: very NOT PG-rated material, linking not possible)
~

[Loneraven]

Originally posted by samarm
loneraven: I can totally understand where you are coming from, and I wouldn't presume to stereotype all people who wear black clothes as dysfunctional, and I meant no offense to any person in particular.
No offence taken, mate. You're trying to figure out the stereotype, I understand that.

You never know what kind of spiky metal things these goths have on their body. :)
*pokes samarm*
*pokepokepoke*

[mycoman]

Back to the OP, I was a little surprised by Samarm's experience myself, mostly because the vast majority of goths I know are way too polite to harass folks on the street. Not that I don't know a few assholes, mind you, but they seem to be the exceptions.

I teach science in a large (3000 student) high school in upstate NY, so I get a chance to observe pretty much any cultural sub-group you can imagine. Many of the goths have indeed had trouble adjusting to the problems of growing up, but the group provides them with an accepting environment, and I've seen a lot of troubled teens over the years learning to cope with the support of their fellow goths.

Believe it or not, I like to get them in my classes because they are generally more open-minded than many high-schoolers, and as a rule they don't label groups of people. There are individuals who have inspired their collective dislike, but they don't seem to generalize.

As for the clothes, most of them that I've talked to just like them. If you want to get psychological, I suppose they serve the dual function of attracting like minded people and warning off those who don't understand. Whatever their motivation, they are often among the best dresed kids.

Sorry about your experience, Samarm, but I think if you hung out in my classrooms for a while, you might get a better picture.

mycoman

[hyperjes]

When I was between the ages of about 15 and 22, I was considered a goth. I guess that's what I called myself too. I wouldn't have considered myself to be particularly anti-social or negative. Most of my friends dressed the same way and were into the same kind of music. We went to "goth clubs", where everyone else dressed and acted pretty much the same way. To a degree, it may have been to draw attention to ourselves. On the other hand, most of us were/are creative types. There's a certain freedom and room for creative expression in the fashion and lifestyle. There are also lots of little "mini-classes" of goth. There's techno-goth, vampire-goth, etc. So there's a niche for whatever you're into, really. Not all "goth" kids wear spikes or makeup.

Whatever was behind it, I had to give it up when it was time for a real job. I still like the music, though. And I like to dress up on weekends sometimes. But I look pretty much like everyone else now.

[GUINNESS]

this is a good funny read

http://shanmonster.lilsproutz.com/jesus/proof/index.html (http://)

[GUINNESS]

..that didnt work..try this


http://shanmonster.lilsproutz.com/jesus/proof/index.html

[finn1911]

I have a rather interesting relationship with a goth couple. They are friends of the fiance from high school. The odd thing about this relationship is that me and the SO are not gothish at all, but we still like to hang out with them. They are very refreshing people actually, they always have great stories to tell and their house is by far the most uniquely decorated place i've ever seen with sculls and swords and little freddy crugar figurines and crap :) Getting back to the original post however... i wouldn't put it past them to yell something like that just to see the response. Part of being a goth for them is seeing the response they get from old ladies and stuff when they walk into a store. It's a bit of an attention grab i guess.

You too can have goth friends! :)

[Woeg]

I dress in gothic (http://www.varmouries.com/gothl_01.html) clothing, but I am not the least bit depressed! ;)



http://www.warehouse23.com/img/sjgames/sjg9116.jpg


Sorry all...couldn't resist. :D

[tomndebb]

I'm going to echo some earlier comments:

I have not found goths to be particularly nasty/antisocial as a group. (Goth will frequently--not always--attract the kids who already feel a bit left out, just as the freak and beatnik styles did, before them, but hostility is not a prominent component of their behavior.)

Teens (particularly males) have a bit fewer inhibitions than most people regarding social decorum--particularly when they are in a protective group--so if one encounters a group of hostile male teens, they are liable to behave a bit more offensively than other groups. However, this is clearly true of jocks, frats, or any other collection of young males. It is not a goth trait.

Among the goths I know are sullen, furtive creatures of darkness and bright, witty kids who like the appearance of the style.

[XJETGIRLX]

Originally posted by DougC
- - - I think that if you go out of your way to look silly, you shouldn't bitch at being treated like a clown.

Where in this entire post did anyone bitch about treated like a clown? If I'm not mistaken, the point of the OP was to understand what characteristics and traits are attributed to the general sub-culture group known as 'goth'.

I love how people feel the need to get a dig in at what they don't understand.

[Misha77]

When I was younger, I stereotyped goths as well. But I stereotyped them in a kinda good way -- I always pictured goths as these sensitive, intellectual people who listened to the Cure and read Rimbaud, and who knew more about art than I ever will. So I always had a crush on goth guys. Then I met a few of them. I realized that some of them were great and some of them were morons so trying to figure out who they are by their style of dress is just pointless.

However, I always thought that there was some measure of contempt from some of the goth community for the people that wore...I don't know...Gap Capris and pink thongs. Am I completely off base here? I thought there was contempt from both sides--one side for dressing differently, one side for dressing the same.

[Pixelle]

Originally posted by samarm
So, I'm walking down the street, minding my own. Three goths walking on the other side of the street. One of them shouts at me "I bet you like young boys!", and they all laughed. I was so suprised that I couldn't think of anything witty to retort with....

How about, hey, I bet you like heroin!

[FaerieBeth]

Originally posted by Ally424
"can't understand that he likes to wear black, nor accept the fact that he is a wicken(sp)". Basically, a witch ?

It's wiccan...and just for the record, Goth does not equal Wiccan, nor do all Wiccans dress Goth. I tend to veer more toward the hippie 70's fringe, gauze, and ruffles stuff. Of course, the SCA does give me outlet for all my corset wearing needs. I love the 'boobs on a platter' look *g*

FaerieBeth

[tomndebb]

I thought there was contempt from both sides--one side for dressing differently, one side for dressing the same. You're close, but it really works as: one side for dressing the same and one side for dressing the different same.

It has long been a source of humor that the people who rebel in the name of individualism frequently establish a uniform to notify everyone of their individuality.

As noted elsewhere: you are truly unique, just like everyone else.
(Generic you, not directed toward Misha77.)

[lezlers]

Originally posted by FaerieBeth
It's wiccan...and just for the record, Goth does not equal Wiccan, nor do all Wiccans dress Goth. I tend to veer more toward the hippie 70's fringe, gauze, and ruffles stuff. Of course, the SCA does give me outlet for all my corset wearing needs. I love the 'boobs on a platter' look *g*

FaerieBeth

I'd just like to second this. I'm wiccan and my standard "uniform" is jeans, t-shirt and thongs. If I were to be "catagorized" at all, I would probably fall more in line with "preppy" than anything else.

Come to think of it, I really only wear all black if I'm going to circle.

[Angel of the Lord]

I'd like to third what lezlers and FaerieBeth said. I am also a flavor of Wiccan, and I don't dress in all black. In fact, I don't have a discernable style. I guess that some of what I wear could be called "Goth." I like some of the Victorian or earlier style dress. I also sometimes wear a collar. And I love silver jewelry.

Thing is, though, I'm a chatterbox. I'm just about never mean--I can't *bring* myself to be mean. So, yeah, even if I'm dressed up all goth-y, I'm still perky. Not everyone's alike; not even all Goths.

[5-HT]

Originally posted by LolaCocaCola
Or maybe it would've gotten yer ass kicked.

I'm not quite sure.

weren't you listening? they were goths, I don't think that would be a problem.

(chill, chill. I kid because I love)

[Super Gnat]

All the goths I've ever known were nice. I mean, unless you pissed them off or something, but that's almost everybody.

[Dangerosa]

Known both types. Goths who were real jerks. Goths who were perfectly nice people. Goths who were intellegent open minded people. Goths who were dumber than rocks or assumed everyone who wasn't Goth has "sold out" in some fashion. Goths that were cheerful, Goths that could have really used antidepressents.

Depends on the indidividual and the crowd they are hanging with. As well as the moment, since I know people who are perfectly nice sometimes and not so nice others (including myself).

[Lissla Lissar]

I'm kind of a goth, too. I dress goth-y, I listen to goth music, I go to goth clubs...


Has anyone found me nihilistic and depressed? Didn't think so.

I'm an amateur seamstress and bellydancer with an historical clothing interest. I love really neat clothes. Goth styles tend to be more interesting than, say, Old Navy. I like wearing them, and I like making them.

In general, I've found goths at least as polite as most other teenage subcultures, if not more so. As I've mentioned before, I started going to goth clubs when I found out that wouldn't get really revolting men hitting on me in a very sleazy fashion if I was at one. There's no way could dance at a normal club and not get hit on all the time- not because I'm uber-gorgeous, but because I'm a bellydancer, and after four years of training, it's the way I dance naturally.

[msmith537]

Originally posted by 5-HT
weren't you listening? they were goths, I don't think that would be a problem.

(chill, chill. I kid because I love) [/B]


Yeah..but they might use their Wiccan powers to turn you into a frog or newt or something. That's what happened to me.
.
.
.
er..I got better.

[DougC]

Where in this entire post did anyone bitch about treated like a clown? If I'm not mistaken, the point of the OP was to understand what characteristics and traits are attributed to the general sub-culture group known as 'goth'.
- - - Reality check: people generally referred to as "goths" tend to dress a very particular way, in order to offset themselves from everybody else. I think white face paint looks funny, it reminds me of clowns. And I do not consider dressing any differently to be any sort of actual accomplishment. So, goth==clown. Clowns==laughed at, so therefore goths==laughed at. taa-daaaa! Anything that prompts a heterosexual male to wear makeup in public (and any such male who does so) deserves mocking.

I love how people feel the need to get a dig in at what they don't understand.
- Perhaps you should read the entire thread again from the begininng. I'm not the only one here with a negative perception of goths....
.......
- Every expression of pop subculture is not valid and precious. Much of it is consigned for the trashbin of history, and some never left. If you saw someone walking down the street, themselves covered in dog shit but perfectly happy, you'd think they were a fool--and rightly so.
~

[Flutterby]

Really Doug? Right now I'm cultivating a relationship with a guy who wears makeup.. and he is very heterosexual.. he looks good in it. As long as they aren't caking it on (which never looks good on anyone) who cares? Not every goth cakes on white base followed by all the black to make themselves look like the Crow. In fact some can put on makeup better then woman who have been doing so for years and should know better!

Heck one of the sweetest guys I know even wears skirts a lot of the time. (Long ankle length ones, it's not like he's running around in mini's!) And he's very hetero as well!

[BadBaby]

"Anything that prompts a heterosexual male to wear makeup in public (and any such male who does so) deserves mocking."


Why would any man wearing make-up in public deserve mocking? Just because it's not been the norm for our short little time on the planet, doesn't mean it's a reason to be nasty to anyone. Making someone miserable because they're different is a rather brutish, ignorant attitude.

As for goths, I've personally found they tend to be a bit more polite, open-minded, and so on than some groups of kids. It's just the nature of the beast. Sort of how you'd find that jocks tend to be better at sports. There is a good deal of variety within all the groups though. What's tripping me up these days are the kids who look like goths but are not. They are simply kids who've seen the look on tv or in the movies and are taking that for themselves, not bothering with any of the music, poetry, etc. Maybe that's who you ran into.

[Misha77]

I think a little eyeliner on a guy often looks good. And I certainly don't think that goths deserve mocking. There are several styles of dress that I don't really "get", but openly mocking a person wearing those styles really accomplishes nothing.

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by msmith537
No one sits around in a three piece suit if they aren't at work.



Um, my best friend's boyfriend would prove you wrong.

His father did just that: wore a suit all day long. He doesn't ever remember seeing his father wear anything but during the day.

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by DougC
- - - Reality check: people generally referred to as "goths" tend to dress a very particular way, in order to offset themselves from everybody else. I think white face paint looks funny, it reminds me of clowns. And I do not consider dressing any differently to be any sort of actual accomplishment. So, goth==clown. Clowns==laughed at, so therefore goths==laughed at. taa-daaaa! Anything that prompts a heterosexual male to wear makeup in public (and any such male who does so) deserves mocking.

~

So, you feel that you are the arbiter of how others should be treated, and your rigid gender identity leads you to abuse others who are more secure than you are.

:wally

[Troy McClure SF]

This thread is a great example of why "it's taking longer than we thought."

[Walloon]

Originally posted by Bippy the Beardless
Cor, what a lot of prejudice in one small thread. . . . A true Goth would be far less likely to be rude to someone else than a Frat boy would. Er, what was that you were saying about prejudice?

[DougC]

So, you feel that you are the arbiter of how others should be treated, and your rigid gender identity leads you to abuse others who are more secure than you are.
- - - I am the arbiter of my own opinion. And I did not say that I openly mocked anyone--just that I tend to make a few conclusions about the character of someone who walks around all day every day dressed like Marlyn Manson, something that even Marlyn Manson himself doesn't do. I don't see originality or substance, I generally see a sad copy of mass-marketed pop images and an obsession towards frivolousness, particularly with regards to guys who wear makeup, since it is marketed primarily to women in the country I live in.
- It might be nice if everything was fair and "how you looked didn't matter", but that just isn't so, and it will probably never be. And if it was, the whole reason for appearing differently as a matter of fasion would vanish- there'd be no point in the effort. As far as my own opinions go, at least I am willing to admit that within limits I do judge people by their appeareances-- there are an AMAZING number of saints here who have nothing to confess on the matter. You might claim to be one who is completely free of personal and prefessional prejudice, but somehow I doubt that.
~

[Felonious Mink]

My name's Sionell and I'm a Goth. There. I've said it. And I didn't have to be rude to anyone! In my experience (and there's a *lot* of it), I've rarely come across Goths who make a point of insulting or taunting 'normal' people.

We have long been singled out and picked on by those who consider themselves normal, and thus consider us to be freaks. I guess we just learn to live with it.

[Pixelle]

Originally posted by DougC
Anything that prompts a heterosexual male to wear makeup in public (and any such male who does so) deserves mocking..... ~


DougC you may not have said that you openly mocked anyone but you did say that male goths deserve to be mocked. Why do they deserve this? Because they're threatening your idea of how a male should dress??

There's nothing wrong with judging someone on their appearance and to recognise that we all do this, but to feel as though you have to take the piss out of them for it as well, IMO that makes youseem like the idiot...not the guy in the make-up.

Have a bit of tolerance Doug ;)

[Ludovic]

Originally posted by 5-HT
weren't you listening? they were goths, I don't think that would be a problem.

(chill, chill. I kid because I love)

well, on alt.gothic a few years ago, several goths claimed that although they look scrawny, when riled they can take out folks several times their strength.

So, you would either be dealing with more than you can handle, or at least people who THINK they are more than you can handle. Which puts them halfway there anyway :)

I'm gonna start a new subculture and call it Emogoth. Expressive, angsty, depressive lyrics set to power pop music with keyboard counterpoints in minor keys.

Fashion: corporate logo t-shirts (in black,) ripped jeans, and a pink feathered buzzcut.

Events: Emogoths spend all their time taking pictures of children's funerals.

Albums: Covers made up of said photos of funerals, pasted together with poems, but all of these must refer to the Wasteland.

[Indygrrl]

The goths I've come across have seemed to think they were "too cool for school." You're lame if you haven't heard of Christian Death or whatever obscure bands they're into. I also remember going to King's Island (amusement park) in August on a 90 degree day, seeing 5 or 6 goths dressed in all black from head to toe, and wearing leather jackets. Uh, yeah, you're cool.

Btw, Cliff Yablonski hates goths, and he hates you too. www.something awful.com. Hee hee. Check it out.

[Indygrrl]

oops, that's www.somethingawful.com

[DougC]

There's nothing wrong with judging someone on their appearance and to recognise that we all do this, but to feel as though you have to take the piss out of them for it as well, IMO that makes you seem like the idiot...not the guy in the make-up. - Pixelle
- - - Ehhh, excuse the regionality, what does "take the piss out of them" mean?
well, on alt.gothic a few years ago, several goths claimed that although they look scrawny, when riled they can take out folks several times their strength. - Ludovic
- Oooohhhh, suuuurrrre they can. Tell them to go light on the makeup for a while--they have obviously confused themselves with something else entirely. (http://www.hells-angels-oakland.com/)
~

[Bippy the Beardless]

quote:Originally posted by Bippy the Beardless
Cor, what a lot of prejudice in one small thread. . . . A true Goth would be far less likely to be rude to someone else than a Frat boy would.

Originally posted by Walloon
Er, what was that you were saying about prejudice?

I was being ironic, by adding a little wood to the fire. Also at a more hidden level my post went on to state 'True Goths' are like 'True Scotsmen' indefinable. Ergo by extension there are no 'True Goths', so A true Goth would be far less likely to be rude to someone else than a Frat boy would. ;)

[jellen92]

I have no problem with people who want to be "goth"... however, a girl I used to work with who was "goth" always called me a yuppy because I didn't have pink hair, torn clothes, or was not constantly in financial trouble. I have found other gothic people to think that of me too, and I am nowhere NEAR yuppy, and was actually offended because I don't represent a yuppy whatsoever. It goes to show you everyone on this planet has their own perceptions of what other people are like. It's a waste of time to get pissed off that someone doesn't see you for WHO you really are, They'll form their own opinions anyway. Why is it the people who are tattooed, pierced, dyed, etc who have to goddamn PROVE themselves??? I wear jeans and tank tops, does make me less of an opiniated person or less depressed?

Goth is fine, but like anything else, if it's thrown in my face I immediately turn away.

[Walloon]

Originally posted by Bippy the Beardless
so A true Goth would be far less likely to be rude to someone else than a Frat boy would. ;) It's not your opinions of goths that I am talking about, it's your use of the derogatory term "frat boy".

[Bippy the Beardless]

I thought frat was just short for fraternity, I did not realise it was considered derogitory to use the term 'frat boy'. Sorry if it caused offence, what is the correct term?
Here is a correct form of my statement
A true Goth would be far less likely to be rude to someone else than Polycarp would.

Since True Goth does not exist, whilst Polycarp does exist.

[X~Slayer(ALE)]

Originally posted by samarm
So, I'm walking down the street, minding my own. Three goths walking on the other side of the street. One of them shouts at me "I bet you like young boys!", and they all laughed. I was so suprised that I couldn't think of anything witty to retort with.

Shout back, "I AM NOT YOUR DAD!"

no real experience with goths. I see a lot of them in my girls High school. Unique hairstyle (saw one with 2 foot spikes! that ws cool) and dark clothes. I did see one this morning (oddly enuf) and upon closer inspection, her entire ensemble was coordinated from makeup to shoes to dark stockings. she was rather pretty in dark hair and dark lipstick. She'd be stunning in "normal" clothes but she wore her stuff very well.

[Indygrrl]

www.suicidegirls.com

Some of them are sexy, some ain't. I think the goth look can be sexy on certain women.

[Troy McClure SF]

Originally posted by DougC
someone who walks around all day every day dressed like Marlyn Manson, something that even Marlyn Manson himself doesn't do.

I trust you know this because you've spend 24 consecutive hours with Manson, and the folks you claim dressed like his stage persona all day every day?

[Mearl Dox]

I don't dislike goths as individuals, but I do think it's a little silly as a movement/subculture/clothing style/whatever. Not because I think they're freaks, but because I think they aren't freaks but they think they're freaks. If that makes any sense. Goths aren't scary, they aren't original, and they don't really seem that strange to me. But they do seem cliche, and that bothers me a bit. C'mon, sure those clothes are interesting, but what about a style more personalized?

I'll admit most of my interactions with goths haven't been entirely positive. Most of my friends who are goths seem to be caught up in the idea that they're somehow unique and special and totally misunderstood (as opposed to other people?), and that annoys me. Random goths seem to have some idea that they're scary or cooler than others, which is also silly.

I don't have any problem with the things goths wear on an individual basis, it just seems odd to abandon the standard 'preppie' uniform and immediately jump into another. If you wanna be unique, don't be a man in black lipstick, be a man in GREEN lipstick! Or blue, or pink, or whatever color you individually like. :)

I hope this post doesn't sound harsher than I mean it to.

[Daftbugger]

Bah. I used to work in a rock club (have the t-shirt on today!) Which also had a dance club in the basement (different club, same franchise) The people in the rock club were goths/metallers/skaters/whatever, were all perfectly polite to me behind the bar. I had very little trouble (apart from the odd ancient trying to chat me up, as mentioned in another thread). In the dance club, the 'normal' people were the most obnoxious people. They'd yell at me, even though I was working as fast as I could, were rude, would refuse to pay and all sorts. I even had one guy complain that I should have been looking after his coat (it got nicked from the back of a chair) simply because he couldn't be bothered to put it in the cloakroom! Twats. Give me the goths anyday.

[Pixelle]

Originally posted by DougC
- - - Ehhh, excuse the regionality, what does "take the piss out of them" mean?

It means to mock, or make fun of them.

[Meros]

Goth checking in here.

We discussed this in GQ a while back.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166549&highlight=goth

Enjoy.

[andygirl]

I am learning to speak Gothic this summer. Although I am not an antagonistic person by nature, I am looking forward to yelling at my Goth friends about how they don't even speak their own language.

[Götterfunken]

I had several friends in high school who were Goths or Goth-ish. I was never a full-blown Goth, although I liked to wear black and still feel an inclination towards darker clothes and hair.

This was almost 15 years ago, though, and I'm simultaneously amused and pleased to see that it's held on all these years!

However, unless something has changed over the years, the people described by the OP don't sound much like the Goths I knew and hanged out with. I could never imagine them hurling insults at strangers on the street. Indeed, they were on the whole very pleasant people, and few of them maintained a "doom and gloom" persona all the time. They tended to be a bit deeper and more sensitive than many of their colleagues in high school, and usually gravitated toward the arts.

They were among the few individuals with whom i could have a serious conversation, and at the same time have fun with. Their extreme appearance usually masked a very well-balanced and well-rounded personality.

Of course, there were always exceptions to those general tendencies, and you'd occasionally find a new person who emulated the Goth look just because they seemed cool and mysterious, or just because of the shock value. I hope that the "Goths" that the OP encountered were such exceptions.

[cowgirl]

So, DougC ... who do you dress like? Why?

Do we get to mock you for it?

[rhinostylee]

You don’t know what it’s like, okay? Jocks put ya’ down, you don’t stand a chance in hell with the good looking girls. The only option you’re left with is to listen to Marilyn Manson and smoke weed and study witchcraft and play Magic The Gathering.

I ain’t turnin’ into no book totin’ nerd! And since I can’t be a jock or a sosh or a greaser, the only niche I can belong to is GOTH! Some of the girls here are somewhat hot, although for every one of those there are 20 fat ones.

So before you put us down, take a look at yourself and see if you can face your own antagonistic and self righteous accusations!

[Bippy the Beardless]

rhinostylee what makes you think you are a Goth?
Marilyn Manson, weed, witchcraft, and Magic The Gathering have no connection to Goth, though I am sure many Goths have interest in some of those passtimes.

[Meros]

Bippy

You are correct in the sentiment that those things mentioned by rhinostylee do not necessarily make one Goth or are requirements for one to be Goth. I personally have no interest in any of the above save for Magic: The Gathering and even then it is only a passing interest at that.

The rest of his post, however, does hold some credence. For many people Goth is the only place to turn. It is one of the few niches you can find where you will be accepted and respected...period. Most of the Goths I hang around with will even go so far as to look down upon another Goth who attempts to bring others down (referring to it as being "More goth than thou" ).

Goth is more of a mindset than a style of dress or musical preference and as such many people turn to it when they find no where else to go. I for one found that despite doing well in my classes and having a penchant for the geek-arts I did not fit in with the nerds. Not having any desire to spend my Mondays trying to find out exactly what I did over the weekend left the preps and jocks, and nearly everyone else in my town out.

Interestingly enough I went Goth before I even knew there was such a thing. I just went for a style of dress that matched the way I was feeling about the world (not very good) and went with it. It wasn't until a couple of years later, after finally meeting some other Goths that I realized there was an entire subculture.

To further complicate matters I am a Goth and a Christian. This makes for some very intersting conversations and may also serve as proof that there as many different kinds of "Goth" as there are actual Goths.

[Bippy the Beardless]

Thanks Meros I see my last post comes off snarkier than I meant. I don't mean to say that rhinostylee is somehow not Goth, I just wanted to ask what about him/her makes him/her feel to be Goth.
<Major Confession> When Goth came around again in the 1980's I was too much a coward to embrace the style, though I loved both the music and the style. It was much later that I found the self confidence to embrace items of the style in everyday life, and to be a weekend "Goth". Though I would not claim to be Goth, I derive my clothing (lack of ? ) style from punk, Goth, fettish and my own insane ideas. I am sure that some weekends I would be thought of by some of the posters here as Goth.
Goth is a great niche for many people, as it is very accepting of new comers, and does not force particular ideas and ideals on its members, save for a certain self expression of style. There is no religion to Goth, so Goth Christian is no more strange than Raver Christian.

[Meros]

I apologize for being so quick to jump the gun Bippy.

Don't worry about just being a "weekend Goth" since there's more to it than just the clothing. If you can "fit in" with them you are one, even if for one reason or another you can't look it all the time.

I, for one, have had to go that way myself having picked up a real job that requires me to wear a shirt and tie :::gag:::

[lezlers]

Wow, the goths you all met were a lot different than the ones I know. The ones I know are snobbier than the "preppies."

I realize that no one "type" of people are all going to be cool, or snobby or whatever, but in my experiences, the goths I've met all looked down their noses at me. Guess I wasn't "cool" enough for them.

Point is, there's going to be jerks in any crowd.

[Lissla Lissar]

Oooohhhh, suuuurrrre they can. Tell them to go light on the makeup for a while--they have obviously confused themselves with something else entirely.
*rather mildly* Well, I do know several goths with extensive weapons and hand-to-hand combat training. Some of them wear makeup, but I've found that it's usually the industrial-type goths rather than the Romantic ones who have the training.

I don't understand the hang-up about cosmetics.

Oh, hi, Meros! I'm a Christian, too.

Maybe it's the "amateur historian" thing, but I don't understand why goth fasion is considered laughable. I think a girl in a tight vinyl cheongsam, heels, and dark makeup can look damn good.

[DougC]

So, DougC ... who do you dress like? Why?

Do we get to mock you for it?
- - - You can if you want, if you can pick me out of a crowd of normal people. I'm the guy not dressed like Marlyn Manson.
~

[XJETGIRLX]

Originally posted by DougC
- - - You can if you want, if you can pick me out of a crowd of normal people. I'm the guy not dressed like Marlyn Manson.
~
So, remind me again -- just what are these "normal" people of which you speak?

[samarm]

I think "normal" means boring, average, non-offensive. It means conformity. It means not standing out from the crowd. Hey, normal isn't necessarily a good thing, its just the lowest common denominator.

[Bippy the Beardless]

DougC why do you wear the clothes you chose to wear?
We'll assume for now that during work you wear the clothes deemed appropriate by your employers, but at other times?

[Enola Straight]

Ooohh, Goths.

Elvira, Morticia Addams, Lilly Munster.

Black Leather and White lace, pewter and silver jewelry, add a long cigarette holder, "because you worship death."

Mmmmmm.

[Quasimodal]

Quick Question that may be off topic

Why are Goths called Goths? Wasn't Gothic and arctectural or Artistic style? How did it become associated with a certain fashion sense/ lifestyle?

[Mearl Dox]

Trying to narrow down why I don't tend to think much of goths as a group. I'm not siding with the "make-up is bad" guy, exactly, but the attitude of many goths seems to be one of superiority, for something that doesn't deserve (in my mind) all that much congratulations. Some of the posts in this thread imply that goths are in general more intelligent or thoughtful than others. I find that questionable.

I wear the clothes I wear because they're comfortable. Some are related to shows or comics I like, although none of them have clothing company labels on them. I have a hair band that has large yellow 'petals' sticking out, designed to make my head look like a daisy, and sometimes I wear that if I feel quirky. I either wear no makeup or green and blue makeup because I like it. I don't know if anyone else has this style, but I don't think I'm better or more thoughtful because I wear a funny hat. I wear the hat in part because other people tend to grin when they see it, so I'm happy to cheer someone else up. Without the hairband and makeup I'm 100% normal-looking. If some of you met me and a goth, you'd assume the goth was nicer and more thoughtful?

[Meros]

Well I had a nice, articulate, well thought out poast that the hamsters ate so now you're stuck with me trying to remember what I said.

I wouldn't assume that the Goth was the nicer and more thoughtful of the two of you, just as I (no offense) wouldn't assume you were until I had had the chance to speak with you and gather what I could of your repsective personalities. There are some goths who put on an air of superiority but quite often they are ostracized by others (the "more Goth than thou" thing I mentioned earlier) because intolderance is something very few goths have any tolerance for whatsoever. I will, however, go to say that, as a rule, a greater percentage of Goths are strong introverts as oppossed to the "mainstream" population which has more of a tendency towards extrovertion which would make them more thoughtful in the sense of constantly being deep in thought about their actions and those of others.

As far as the name goes. I won't claim to know exactly but IIRC it has to do with the Gothic literary genre which has a tendency to lean towards the supernatural and the darker aspects of existence.

[Ludovic]

Quasi- word has it it originated in an interview with Siouxsie Sioux who said something along the lines of "It's a very Gothic thing we've been doing."

Meros - I believe the proper term for it is "Goth as Fuck" ;)

[Necros]

Originally posted by Ludovic
I believe the proper term for it is "Goth as Fuck" ;)

I have a shirt that says exactly that. :)

[Bippy the Beardless]

Mearlchan I'd assume you were both potentially interesting people, as the first impressions caused by your clothing would be of people who at least think about what they wear. I'd be worried though if you looked too much like a daisy (picturing you in green leotard, and big paper yellow petals all around your head :D ) in case you were mad, or going to try and sell me something.
A thought about the Gothic clothing, is that at any Gothic event I have been too it is very much about 'putting on a show' the audience isn't passive, but is part of the show itself. Like in a white tie society ball, the participants dress in a style that is designed to add to the event. It is a recreation of a romanticized vision of the past, like a recreation of a Viennese Masquerade. So going to an event in clothing that disrupts the image may get you the cold shoulder from some participants, and may give you a bad view of them. Imagine going to a White Tie event wearing business casual, you would not even be allowed in, even a black tie and tuxedo would get you condescending looks.

[UnwrittenNocturne]

I just have to chime in here. I'm going to claim (for want of a better term) uber-goth status, based on being part of the scene for a little over 20 years.

First, and contrary to what some posters have suggested: we have way better fashion sense than most. And mine varies between Romantic Goth and Cyber/Industrial. Although it is basically black on black, some deep reds, spikes for clubbing. Black eyeliner? Sure. Pale foundation? Not a chance, but I have pale skin and stay out fo the sun.

Introverted? Yes, mostly due to shyness, not uncommon amongst people who identify as goths. A common statement I hear is 'hey, we are not standoffish, just too damned shy to introduce ourselves'.

Goth, really, is a music and fashion thing, not a lifestyle. There are however, certain stereotypes that are probably based on facts. Religiously; most I have met are atheists, but there is a lot of religious imagery to be seen. Its fun, and can be iconoclastic. Which leads me to the next point. There tends to be, among some, not exactly nihilism (we will leave that to the metalheads and spookykids) but a rejection of whatis seen as a shallow and materialistic society. One where your self-worth is measured by your relationships to others (your colleagues, your house in comparision to the neighbours etc).

Normals: Ok, insert a big grin here. Frankly, I have not, nor I ever, desired to be a part of what you might call 'normal' society, with manufactured pop, plastic food, fascination with the lives of celebrities, reality tv and bad manners. I think I will simply ignore it, as best I can. I still hold down a job, live in a house etc.

Interested in darker things: sure and why not. the world is not all sunshine and light you know. Depressed: nope, nor are many I know. Violent: nope. Our club here in Hobart, after running more than three years and with very high attendances has never] seen a single fight. I doubt many places could say that. We do not even use bouncers.

Goths just wanna have fun....and a lot of it.

[Johanna]

Originally, the Goths were a barbarian Germanic people from Eastern Europe who helped put an end to the Roman Empire by sacking Rome in the 5th century and then converted to a form of Christianity called Arianism that was declared heretical by the Roman Church. (The extinct Gothic language is valuable to historical/comparative linguists because it is the only recorded example of an East Germanic language (English is West Germanic), and the only known Germanic language of a level of antiquity comparable to ancient Greek, Latin, and Sanskrit, and as such is important for tracing developments in the Indo-European languages. The only man in modern times who could actually speak Gothic, and even write poetry in it, was Professor J. R. R. Tolkien.)

When the Gothic style of cathedral architecture first appeared around the 13th century, it was so radically different and striking that people of more conservative aesthetic tastes found it barbarous, and so nicknamed it after the well-known barbarian people of late antiquity. It put an end to the Romanesque style just as the original Goths had put an end to the Roman empire.

In the late 18th century, the next to last step in this process of meaning transfer, the English author Horace Walpole wrote tales like The Castle of Otranto that were nicknamed "Gothic fiction" maybe because they at first seemed so outlandish. Walpole's Gothic style became the inspiration in part for Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and for the 1960s TV series Dark Shadows.

Walpole's dark, brooding, moody settings thus associated the name Gothic with the dark side of the Romantic movement, Strum und Drang, gloom and doom as sexy and attractive, Die Leiden des jungen Werthers, Heathcliffe, etc. Look how much of the modern Gothic style harks back to the Romantic period including Walpole, Goethe, Mary Shelley; recall that the first Goths who pioneered this stuff had been kids in the 1960s who were devoted to catching all the episodes of Dark Shadows....

[Bippy the Beardless]

Good stuff Jomo Mojo do you know how "American Gothic" style fits in to all this? I mean those dour images of farmers with hay forks seem far removed from the rest of Gothdom.

[Götterfunken]

Originally posted by Bippy the Beardless
Good stuff Jomo Mojo do you know how "American Gothic" style fits in to all this? I mean those dour images of farmers with hay forks seem far removed from the rest of Gothdom. Well, they do wear a lot of black...

Seriously, though, Grant Wood's paintingAmerican Gothic (http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/modern/73pc_wood.html) was entitled such because of the "Gothic" pointed window in the house in the background (http://showcase.netins.net/web/eldon/ghouse.html). To Wood's mind, the window seemed out of place in rural Eldon, Iowa.

[greck]

The best explanation I've been able to come up with is this:

It's a person's way of saying "I'm going to define how you perceive me before you get a chance to judge me" so its about control over other people's ability to stereotype.

goth, decorative punk, any fringe dresser really.

[ccwaterback]

Living in Key West for a couple years I ran into just about every shape and form of human being you could imagine. What's my conclusion? There are good people and there are bad people. What you wear, where you hang out, what kind of transportation you use, etc., has absolutely nothing to do with the person you are inside. See, Key West has a way of "undressing" people. The atmosphere is Key West is, "Hey, we have seen it all before, grab a chair and sit down over here with the rest of us. Let's see who you really are". Key West is a great "equalizer". But I digress ...

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by greck
The best explanation I've been able to come up with is this:

It's a person's way of saying "I'm going to define how you perceive me before you get a chance to judge me" so its about control over other people's ability to stereotype.

goth, decorative punk, any fringe dresser really.

Swing and a miss.

[greck]

Originally posted by Mockingbird
Swing and a miss.

oh, well I have no choice to conceed and stand corrected in the face of such strong logic.

This is more than just a "swing," I've been working with teens for about 12 years now, I'm kind of a student of youth culture, group and individual psychology. While not the most noted authority, I understand a thing or two.

There are certainly other factors that contribute to the desire to dress "goth."
peer harmony-people don't want to stick out too much.
why would someone purposely want to stick out in the larger society? (or dress a certain way, knowing that they will)?

peer solidarity/identity- there's a group of us and we are young, heartache to heartache we stand, no promises no demands, love is a battlefield (I used to love that video). us vs the world basically.

This is who I am and who you have no choice but to see me as.
I am unique
I am different
You don't know me
you don't understand me
you don't "get" me
I don't want to be "gotten" (but you should try anyway, cause I think I'm pretty cool in this outfit, I've invested alot of time and caring and I want to be understood and appreciated for it).

The dress is at once an invitation, a challenge, and a protective layer. It's an aggressive move toward defining one's relationship with society (parents, teachers, whoever).
why this specific fashion? "cause I like it" certainly doesn't cut it as an explanation, but broken down, the phrase explains it. I mean, that's what the kid means when he/she says it. Teens often aren't the most articulate of people.

"cause I like it" -I've actually had this conversation with people. It breaks down to a few things: It makes me feel special, it makes me feel comfortable (I take this to mean in an empowered way, like "yeah, I get to decide how to dress"). I can identify with power this way (power is a big one).

Basically people dress "goth" for most of the reasons that anyone dresses the way they do.

"extreme" dressers just need (want) to be more proactive about the way people see them. There's power and protection in such behavior.