"In Iraq, Things Really Aren't That Bad" - I told you so!

[december]

A couple of weeks ago, I started a thread claiming that conditions in Iraq weren't as bad as the press were representing (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=187812&highlight=mark). It was based on a column by Mark Steyn, who had spent two weeks driving around the country on his own. Steyn's POV was disparaged by several posters. E.g., CollounsburyI trust what I hear from my sources and from non-Telegraph journos more than this one single columist. When I say my sources, I mean folks who've been in on the ground and around....

He's earned your "trust" -- I believe faith is the better word, but then there's no arguing with the true believer.... .

Well, I see little point in continuing this with you, it's rather like trying to nail jello to the wall.Well, the New York Times today ran a column concurring in Steyn's observations (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/13/opinion/13WARD.html)....Iraq is widely depicted as a nation in chaos, with armed gangs dominating Baghdad's streets amid a widespread breakdown of public services. Having returned from Iraq two weeks ago, I believe this picture is distorted. In fact, we may soon look back at the postwar looting as only a bump in a long road.

Before the war, those of us planning for post-conflict Iraq worried about these possibilities: up to one million refugees, widespread food shortages, epidemics, acute homelessness, a shutdown of the oil industry and general lawlessness.

In the end, only the last became reality....

Still, Iraq is in most respects further along the road to recovery than we could have expected before the war. All major public hospitals in Baghdad are again operating. Sixty percent of Iraq's schools are open. Nationwide distribution of food supplies has resumed. Despite some damage to the oil wells, petroleum production exceeds domestic needs, and exports should begin again soon. More Iraqis are receiving electric power than before the war. BTW some posters elsewhere have blamed the war for shortages of electric power. In fact, Saddam's government had already screwed up electric power distribution before the war.

[december]

There's one set of "experts" about the post-war situation in both Iraq and Afghanistan about whom I've seen very little comment; and yet I personally respect their opinions more than all of the opinions of the "world affairs experts."...

That group is the "refugees." All the reports I've seen have said that vast numbers of Afghans have been moving back into Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban, and also that the flow of "refugees" has been INTO Iraq rather than out of it....

I'm not by this trying to excuse any errors that the U.S. may have made, but I think that the opinion of the former refugees is the most valuable one available as to the relative change in the situations. Those people both understand the situation at the level of the individual citizen far better than any "distant expert," and they are validating their opinions with their LIVES. http://oxblog.blogspot.com/2003_06_08_oxblog_archive.html#105555412647114233

[Kal]

[Serious offer]

Would you like a LiveJournal code? I have one that you could have.

[/Serious offer]

[Desmostylus]

What the fuck is wrong with you, december?

Crap posted on a message board, or crap contained in op-ed pieces is still just crap.

What you've done in this thread is said:

1) I posted some crap on a message board.
2) Someone contributed similar crap to a newspaper.
3) Someone else posted the same crap somewhere else.
4) See? I was right!

Opinion does not equal fact.

[Ponder Stibbons]

Somewhat off topic ... The Onion reports (http://www.theonion.com/onion3922/gen_tommy_franks_quits.html) that ...

"It just got to be so big," Franks said. "You had these massive campaigns, with soldiers and generals and tech crews and medical staffs and reporters and maintenance engineers and all these other people. It was such an elaborate production. I guess I just felt like, somewhere along the way, we got away from what it was all about. We forgot the thing we all got into it for in the first place: the killing."

It's nice to know people still know how to get back to the basics!

[casdave]

............. and in what way does any of this justify the war itself ?

[jjimm]

I see your blog and raise you one blog (http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/).American civil administration in Iraq is having a shortage of Bright ideas. I keep wondering what happened to the months of ?preparation? for a ?post-saddam? Iraq. What happened to all these 100-page reports, where is that Dick Cheney report? Why is every single issue treated like they have never thought it would come up? What?s with the juggling of people and ideas about how to form that ?interim government?? Why does it feel like they are using the [lets-try-this-lets-try-that] strategy? Trial and error on a whole country?
The various bodies that have been installed here don?t seem to have much coordination between them. We all need to feel that big sure and confident strides forward are being taken; it is not like this at all. And how about stopping empty pointless gestures and focusing on things that are real problems? Can anyone tell me what the return of children to schools really means? Other than it makes nice 6 o?clock news footage.
Schools have been looted; there are schools that have cluster bombs thrown in them when fedayeen were still there, no one bothered to clean that mess up before issuing the call on [Information Radio] that all students should go back to schools. How about clearing the mess created by the sudden disappearing of the ration distribution centers? How about getting the Hospitals back in shape? How about making it safe to walk in the street?By the way, I acknowledge that this doesn't prove anything either.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Fuck this December bashing. He did put forward the following facts that interest me a great deal


All major public hospitals in Baghdad are again operating. Sixty percent of Iraq's schools are open. Nationwide distribution of food supplies has resumed. Despite some damage to the oil wells, petroleum production exceeds domestic needs, and exports should begin again soon. More Iraqis are receiving electric power than before the war.

Now that certainly suggests that the US led administration in Iraq is doing an admirable job. Anyone care to challenge these facts? With facts?

[tomndebb]

Of course, the people who are actually in charge of security and reconstruction do not seem to see the situation through such rosy glasses. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3552510#post3552510) Even issuing explicit warnings. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3552970#post3552970)

[Sofa King]

This knock 'em on their ass and then let them pick themselves up by their own bootstraps theory is really starting to chap my ass.

I'll give Rumsfeld and his ilk credit for knowing one elusive truth: armed forces make shitty administrators. But if you're going to bullshit your way into a war in an already impoverished place, for shit's sake bring some people with you who know how to rebuild a country. Fucking Halliburton is getting paid more money than God by the feds--are you telling me they can't fix and extend a power grid?

I'm serious about this, december: your constant cheerleading in the face of demonstrable deceit and incompetence does your side no credit whatever. When your guys are so arrogant as to publish their plan for world domination (http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/secstrat.htm) and then ignore their own chapter on economic development (http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/secstrat2.htm#nss6), someone's dropping the damned ball.

You should be devoting your considerable time and effort into using your voice and persistence to improve this administration so that they can at least pursue their evil plans with a degree of competence. These idiots are falling off the proverbial Segway. You should be spotting your president instead of calling it interpretive dance.

[sailor]

december, you are totally immune to reason. Whether things are better or worse in Iraq does not change the fact that the USA, without a valid justification, invaded a country against all principles of international law. No matter what happens later the fact that the USA violated international law is not going to change.

The fact is that the USA invaded a country and killed several thousand civilians in the process for no good reason and caused great damage to international order.

If the USA was so bent on improving the lot of the Iraqis, it should have worked towards that within the framework of the international community as represented by the UN.

[milroyj]

December's OP was, and I'll quote, "conditions in Iraq weren't as bad as the press were representing", which seems like a valid topic for discussion to me. So what do we get for replies:

...and in what way does any of this justify the war itself?

and

Whether things are better or worse in Iraq does not change the fact thate the USA, without a valid justification, invaded a country against all prinicples of international law

None of which has anything to do with the OP. He didn't claim the war was justified, only that conditions in Iraq might not be as bad as reported. These replies, along with the live journal /Onion/blog jabs are just mindless December bashing.

[sailor]

His claims that conditions in Iraq are "not as bad as reported" have been thoroughly refuted already. Condition ins Iraq are what they are and, of course, they may be better than some report and worse than others report.

The fact is december is posting in order to somehow justify the invasion and the invasion cannot be justified by how good things are. Especially to the thousands who were killed or maimed for life.

[Kal]

milroyj: My offer of a LiveJournal code was a serious offer. I happen to think that he'd like LJ.

[milroyj]

Originally posted by sailor
The fact is december is posting in order to somehow justify the invasion

And you know this how?

[sailor]

Originally posted by milroyj
And you know this how? Because, you see, I *know* december and he has tried to justify the invasion is every possible and many impossible ways. But, if not that, pray tell, what do you think is his motivation?

[casdave]

And you know this how?


Read his string of posts on the justification for attacking Iraq, from all the pre-war bluster, the Hans Blix inspections, the war itself and then the lack of WMD, where December has tried time after time to justify this war based upon the reasons the US administration gave.

After all his caveats, exceptions, changes of argument, distortions, justifications, and his' well they would have had them in years to come' type points, I just cannnot for the life of me see how this is not part of his/her campaign to justify the US led attack on a sovereign nation without the express approval of all the UNSC.

Now that the argument about WMD has been seen to be what it is, total fabrication, this is the next nearest justification for remaining in Iraq.
Well they are better off under US occupation than under Saddam Hussain, appears to be the subtext.

That may even be true, but it still will not change the fact that the US has illegally and aggressively invaded another nation that posed no threat whatsoever to it or its citizens.

[istara]

My. Fucking. God.

Have you ever spoken to anyone in Iraq/Baghdad? I do, daily.

Do you ever watch news channels from this part of the world, or read neutral websites such as the BBC? I do, daily.

You have not got a FUCKING CLUE what is going on in Iraq yet you wish to believe it is fairyland to suit your own warped, brainwashed, bigoted agenda.

I really wish I could have our Baghdad correspondent Saad contact you and talk some fucking sense into you. Only he can't, because the very few precious times his satellite phone is working he needs to call us or his family. And because it is so fucking dangerous he has to get home to his house before dark, when Americans are getting up. He can't even do a live in our programme because the SNG team won't work after dark, so he has to pre-record.

[elucidator]

Istara, could you expand further on your position? I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, implying lack of credibility, far from it. You seem to be in an extraordinary position as regards special insight and information, and I, for one, would be eager to hear more.

I hope you have the leisure and the inclination to comply.

[Lissa]

The condition of Iraq was bad before the invasion, and it is bad now. The degree of negativity is really not important, in my opinion- the simple fact is that there are problems. No one, that I have ever seen, has said that the Iraqi's were better off oppressed by Saddam. The reality that he was an evil tyrant has never been disputed by anyone on these boards. However, attempting to use a Machiavellian argument does not change the reality of the past.

The only thing that I find important is that one of the revisionist reasons we went to war in the first place was to better the lives of the Iraqi people. All the talk about Democracy and freedom from oppression. I hear about terrible infrastructural problems now, just like I did before. But I also hear about the censorship of the press under the U.S. forces (for security reasons, but nonetheless censorship).

I guarantee, if the attacks against U.S. personnel continue, you will see more draconic control measures (to protect our troops which I sure hope they do now that we are committed to this utter travesty) and things will not improve. If our government is willing to pass the Patriot Act here in America to subvert our freedoms, I cannot imagine what they will be willing to do to undermine freedom and democracy in Iraq.

But, no matter what, why do people keep on feeding December's posts? I had high hopes earlier when I saw no replies, but they diminished quickly.

Oh crud, I just bumped the post. I guess I have falling into the trap as well.

[december]

Originally posted by tomndebb
Of course, the people who are actually in charge of security and reconstruction do not seem to see the situation through such rosy glasses. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3552510#post3552510) Even issuing explicit warnings. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3552970#post3552970) Your first cite indicates that, aside from Saddam's incredible cruelty, material conditions in Iraq had deteriorated under his reign. Many of the problems we're coping with today are actually of long standing. It appears clear Iraqi infrastructure across the board is in worse shape than expected. First, on a human level present estimates on literacy rates show a drop from roughly 70 percent in 1980 to roughly 55 percent... Real GDP estimates reflect a similar magnitude of decrease, dropping from roughly $50-60 billion to $25-35 billion. Per capita GDP that had been in the range of $4,500 in 1980 is now around $1,000-1,200 or about the same level as Iran....It should be recalled that...agricultural production had collapsed, as had other economic activity....

Major repair and upgrade work is required to restore Iraq's deteriorated oil sector infrastructure to pre-1991 production levels and to attain world-class safety standards. For over 20 years, Iraqi oil sector equipment has been poorly maintained. Rusted, outdated facilities have been operated through various improvised means.

On the bright side, potentially crippling damage and sabotage to the sector during the war was avoided and the nine oil well fires in southern Iraq have been extinguished. The Army Corps of
Engineers has been assigned by the Defense Department to
undertake oil sector rehabilitation....The Corps' stated objective is to "have fires suppressed, environmental cleanup accomplished, oil production levels restored, if required, and our personnel safely redeployed back home." The Coalition has reaffirmed its commitment to protect Iraq's natural resources as the patrimony of the people of Iraq, which should be used only for their benefit.

...Water and sewage treatment plants have deteriorated as a result of lack of maintenance, spare parts, war, and dwindling numbers of professional operating personnel. Over 90 percent of the urban population is thought to have access to water, but quantities per capita are insufficient. Moreover, in many neighborhoods, leaking pipes has contaminated potable water networks. Less than half the rural population has direct access to piped potable water. Only half of the country's sewage treatment plants are operational. In Baghdad, deteriorating sewage treatment installations are unable to handle an increased flow caused by population growth. As a consequence, nearly 500,000 tons of raw or partially treated sewage are discharged daily into the rivers. This has resulted in a dramatic increase in the incidence of water-borne diseases, such as cholera, typhoid, amoebic dysentery, and diarrhea. Projects aimed at improving Iraq's irrigation systems and potable water and wastewater treatment facilities are included within the potential scope of USAID's Capital Construction contract.Two conclusions:

1. Although there are still lots and lots of challenges, things are now improving. The glass is half full, not half empty. That's why more people are returning to Iraq than are leaving.

2. Most of the material shortages should be blamed on Saddam, not to the war. Had the war not occurred, these conditions would still be deteriorating, rather than being fixed.

[casdave]

I don't recall a war cry to improve bridges, hospitals and the like.

[RedFury]

Originally posted by december
Your first cite indicates that, aside from Saddam's incredible cruelty, material conditions in Iraq had deteriorated under his reign. Many of the problems we're coping with today are actually of long standing. Two conclusions:

1. Although there are still lots and lots of challenges, things are now improving. The glass is half full, not half empty. That's why more people are returning to Iraq than are leaving.

2. Most of the material shortages should be blamed on Saddam, not to the war. Had the war not occurred, these conditions would still be deteriorating, rather than being fixed.

One conclusion:

You're not biased. You're insane.

[Squink]

From the op ed piece:George Ward, former coordinator for humanitarian assistance in the Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance for Iraq, is head of the training program at the United States Institute of Peace. Whatever happened to Wolowitz/Garner/Ward's pentagon based Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance for Iraq ? It shows up on google (http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=10&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=%22Office+of+Reconstruction+and+Humanitarian+Assistance+for+Iraq%22&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off), but is entirely absent from recent news items. Did everyone get shitcanned when Bremer came in to turn things around (http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/world/6057650.htm) ?
How much weight should we give to the opinions of a man who went from a failed stint managing humanitarian aid in Iraq, to a position at an organization with an antisemitic bias (http://www.usip.org/pubs/peaceworks/pwks47.html) ?

[tomndebb]

Your first cite indicates that, aside from Saddam's incredible cruelty, material conditions in Iraq had deteriorated under his reign. Many of the problems we're coping with today are actually of long standing. And?

You are weaseling. Your OP was an attempt to bolster your earlier post that Iraq was not that bad off. Now you are shifting the discussion to the point that after canning its first picked manager, the Coalition Forces are finally beginning to get a handle on helping Iraq recover. This does nothing to support your contention in either thread that things are not bad to begin with.

[Ben Hicks]

How about we all pass the hat around to buy december a couple of months in Bagdhad. When he comes back he may be a little wiser. I know I'd chip in ;)

[iampunha]

The utter shit-eating grins almost actually visible (thank GOD there's no applicable smily...) in the Title (alone) of this thread, compared to the subject matter, are almost making me literally sick to my stomach.

And I watch surgery for fun. I read the TMI thread because I found it interesting, and little (if anything) grossed me out.

But this ... this shit is absolutely fucking disgusting. I do not believe that someone with any measure of self-respect could post such utter garbage. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. I know you won't be, since you couldn't find fault in yourself if your pathetic life depended on it, but you are one sick fuck.

[leander]

What iampunha said....fucking disgusting.

[Gyrate]

Originally posted by Desmostylus
Crap posted on a message board, or crap contained in op-ed pieces is still just crap. I am shocked, shocked, at your suggestion that the New York Times would print anything that was less than 100% truthful.

[istara]

elucidator - I work for a TV station in the Middle East, part of an Arab broadcasting organisation. We get to see all Reuters and APTN stuff, as well as material from our own correspondents. Also all the usual print wires. Plus I work with a good dozen Iraqis, nearly all of whom have friends and family back in Iraq, mainly Baghdad, with whom they're in pretty intermittent contact with. Communications are still a nightmare.

NOTHING suggests the situation there is anything like the fuckarse OP tries to suggest "isn't really that bad". It IS really bad, and in some areas detiorating. It just sickens me that he tries to gloss over the genuine suffering and lack of safety of a nation of people, to prove some (unproveable, because he's WRONG) political point. It's immoral.

[samclem]

december. As Demostylus said, an op-ed piece does not truth make.

And, in the case of the one you cited, it's written by George Ward, from the conservative dominated, inaptly named United States Institute for International Peace.


You proudly trumpet that the piece appears in the NYTIMES, and it supports your Mark Steyn column from two weeks ago. It's an op-ed piece.

Funny how you criticize the NY Times for op-ed pieces that don't support your warped sense of what is or isn't true in life. But you cite them positively when they publish a view that supports your version of the truth.

Disgusting, and tiring. Do you not have any pride?

[Avalonian]

istara's posts seem, to me, to be the most valuable in this thread, as someone who's had direct experience with the region in question. I also know someone who lives there, and he's described similar difficulties. They put the lie to december's blog-spotting OP pretty quickly, in my view.

december, I note that you didn't respond to istara's account earlier. In fact, you flat-out ignored it. Care to attempt a cogent response to it now?

[The Flying Dutchman]

Originally posted by grienspace
...Now that certainly suggests that the US led administration in Iraq is doing an admirable job. Anyone care to challenge these facts? With facts?


Didn't think so:rolleyes:

[Ben Hicks]

Okay, so can I count on donations from iampunha, leander and Istara? ;)

[Zoe]

Meanwhile, the number of civilian deaths in Iraq has surpassed the number of civilians killed in the destruction of the WTC. According to the AP, the Iraqi civilian death toll stands at 3, 240.

[december]

Originally posted by istara
I really wish I could have our Baghdad correspondent Saad contact you and talk some fucking sense into you. Only he can't, because the very few precious times his satellite phone is working he needs to call us or his family. And because it is so fucking dangerous he has to get home to his house before dark, when Americans are getting up. He can't even do a live in our programme because the SNG team won't work after dark, so he has to pre-record....

Communications are still a nightmare.

NOTHING suggests the situation there is anything like the fuckarse OP tries to suggest "isn't really that bad". It IS really bad, and in some areas detiorating. It just sickens me that he tries to gloss over the genuine suffering and lack of safety of a nation of people, to prove some (unproveable, because he's WRONG) political point. Stripping out the insults, you say that in Baghdad, the streets are unsafe and the satellite phone is usually not working. You also say there is genuine suffering, of an unspecified nature. I accept everything you say.

However, I claimed that things in Iraq were not as bad as was being rerported. Do you know what has been reported here? A couple of weeks ago I saw articles talking about widespread starvation. I saw articles claiming that hospitals were overcrowded and they didn't have the necessary medical supplies. I saw articles claiming that the oil infrastructure was such a shambles that it would be out of commission for a long time. I saw articles predicting that the US occupation would be a total failure, because the Iraqi people would never accept it. These things weren't happening and they didn't happen.

I believe that there is genuine suffering and lack of safety. I don't mean to minimize what the Iraqi people are going through. However, the hospitals never ran out of medicine and supplies, and there never was widespread starvation. And, enough oil is already being pumped so that some is available for export, and the amount is increasing.

[Apos]

Not to push your buttons or anything, but that civilian toll is remarkably LOW, not high, for an invasion and conquering of an entire nation (especially one as big as Iraq).

[samclem]

Originally posted by grienspace
...Now that certainly suggests that the US led administration in Iraq is doing an admirable job. Anyone care to challenge these facts? With facts?

Didn't think so:rolleyes:
grieny. You are assuming that the "facts" that december posted from the op-ed piece are truth. They probably are. But it should be up to you to support them with "facts."

Just try one. Find another cite, preferrably from a neutral source, that supports the assertion that More Iraqis are receiving electric power than before the war.
Again, I'm not saying that it's true or false. It should be easy to find support for the statement, since the OP and the OP-ED writer say it's true.

Are you up to it?

[The Flying Dutchman]

Originally posted by samclem
grieny. You are assuming that the "facts" that december posted from the op-ed piece are truth. They probably are. But it should be up to you to support them with "facts."

Why? I never took a position on the veracity on Steyn's eye witness accounts. I do trust the New York Times in light of recent embarassments far more than Istara's al-Jazeera.


But then if I was about to attack the integrity of someone else, particularly a fellow member of this community, then I better have some evidence to back it up or shut up.

[SPOOFE]

Surprisingly, I'm with Grieny. On a message board devoted solely to Fighting Ignorance, I'm utterly appalled to see people using nothing but ad hominem attacks against someone they disagree with, even if that person does have a... "reputation".

[elucidator]

You mean, he's like...."easy"?

[samclem]

grienspiece said . I do trust the New York Times in light of recent embarassments far more than Istara's al-Jazeera.
Do you truly mean that you would swallow an op-ed piece from the NYT, no matter that it was from a conservative or a liberal veiwpoint? I doubt it.

If you meant that you would trust the NYT, in a news article, then I suport you. But we ain't talking about news articles here.

SPOOFE asserts I'm utterly appalled to see people using nothing but ad hominem attacks against someone they disagree with, even if that person does have a... "reputation".

Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?

Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.

Croupier: Your winnings, sir.

Renault: Oh. Thank you very much. Everybody out at once.


At least Claude Raines redeemed himself by shooting Major Strasser at the end of the movie.

No doubt we'll have to wait for longer for anyone to redeem themselves in a december thread.

At least december, to his credit, starts these abominations in the Pit.

[andros]

At least Claude Raines redeemed himself by shooting Major Strasser at the end of the movie.

Er, no. That was Bogart.

[iampunha]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
Surprisingly, I'm with Grieny. On a message board devoted solely to Fighting Ignorance, I'm utterly appalled to see people using nothing but ad hominem attacks against someone they disagree with, even if that person does have a... "reputation".

You been here longer'n I have, and you're surprised about that?

[samclem]

andros. You are correct. I made a mistake.

Raines did redeem himself by saying "round up the usual suspects" rather than having Bogart arrested.

[elucidator]

Yeah, but wasn't he like, invisible?

[Lissa]

Originally posted by Apos
Not to push your buttons or anything, but that civilian toll is remarkably LOW, not high, for an invasion and conquering of an entire nation (especially one as big as Iraq).

I agree. I never agreed with this war, but I am grateful that it was done with maximum efficiency, and at least tried to keep civilian deaths at a minimum. I honestly expected a higher death count on both sides. I've never been happier to be wrong about something.

[iampunha]

Originally posted by iampunha
You been here longer'n I have, and you're surprised about that?

Please disregard. I initially made the wrong reading of "appalled" and realized before I could turn back.

FTR, I do not believe my initial post was uncalled-for, SPOOFE, assuming for the moment that you were including me in your comment.

[milroyj]

Originally posted by sailor
Because, you see, I *know* december and he has tried to justify the invasion is every possible and many impossible ways. But, if not that, pray tell, what do you think is his motivation?

Just so we get this straight. You're not arguing his premise in this thread. You just want to bash him because he's December.

Got it.

[elucidator]

Bash december? Perish the thought! The man is a treasure, a true believer who is never dissuaded. You can depend on him! Just when you think there isn't the slightest chance of a plausible argument, however far fetched, he comes up with one. We would be as much the poorer without him as we would without Collounsbury.

Wrong? Well, yes, and so what? Our country is currently ruled by men who would cheerfully smear turds on thier shoes and try to buff them to a high gloss!

[Zoe]

elucidator:
Our country is currently ruled by men who would cheerfully smear turds on thier shoes and try to buff them to a high gloss!

As I said in the thread about naming the current scandal, the name for it has to have the word shinola in it somewhere. I must be picking up on your vibes.

[iampunha]

Originally posted by elucidator
Wrong? Well, yes, and so what? Our country is currently ruled by men who would cheerfully smear turds on thier shoes and try to buff them to a high gloss!

The turds or the shoes? I'm leaning toward saying that if US intel said the turds were laced with something, and the administration wanted to smell like shit, they'd turn that into "the turds have laces; you can put them on and walk in them."

Either that or something about Kurds and arsenic...

[elucidator]

Arsenic and Old Laces.

[rjung]

Originally posted by istara
Do you ever watch news channels from this part of the world, or read neutral websites such as the BBC?
In december's world, the BBC is part of the slanted "liberal media," and should not be trusted to report what really happens.

The only reliable source of news is Bill O'Reilly. :rolleyes:

[Collounsbury]

State of Iraq

What a fucking surprise, our professional blog-spotter and Op-Ed column regurgitator has found some items to rip out of their context to support his little fantasy world.

I suppose it would be amusing were it not trivializing the danger in which some close colleagues and friends of mine presently have put themselves in, in Iraq, as well as being grossly distortive of the present challenges and dangers. Should want to understand current problems and challenges – and let me emphasize, it pretty fucking important to me professionally insofar as we’re preparing to put 3 digits of millions on the line over the next seven years if things play out right – one should pretty fucking well want to deal with reality, and not ideological pimpery of motherfucking fantasies by drooling morons and lying shysters. Of course two of chief morons and twits in residence, Milly and Greeny are here to whinge on and piss their pants as always. Bloody ‘Depends’ commercials they are.



A couple of weeks ago, I started a thread claiming that conditions in Iraq weren't as bad as the press were representing. It was based on a column by Mark Steyn, who had spent two weeks driving around the country on his own. Steyn's POV was disparaged by several posters. E.g., Collounsbury
[quote]I trust what I hear from my sources and from non-Telegraph journos more than this one single columnist. When I say my sources, I mean folks who've been in on the ground and around....

He's earned your "trust" -- I believe faith is the better word, but then there's no arguing with the true believer.... .

Well, I see little point in continuing this with you, it's rather like trying to nail jello to the wall.



I reiterate the same sentiments, with provisio you are far more of drooling ideologue than I had thought.

You may see my GD thread wherein I cite to actual reports on the actual conditions. I note for example that officials in country advised against using the Amman-Baghdad highway in convoys of less than four. They further note that insecurity is widespread, and that cholera and other water borne disease is a serious issue.

Not that any factual information will have the slightest impact on your dim and hardening remnant of a brain.


Well, the New York Times today ran a column concurring in Steyn's observations.
quote:...Iraq is widely depicted as a nation in chaos, with armed gangs dominating Baghdad's streets amid a widespread breakdown of public services. Having returned from Iraq two weeks ago, I believe this picture is distorted. In fact, we may soon look back at the postwar looting as only a bump in a long road.


Funny, his comrades seem to have a different view of things, in private and in public documentation. For all that, his statements hardly support your spin that current reports are ‘exaggerating’ conditions on the ground for political purposes. What he does indicate, and to an extent he is right, is that things are not as bad as they could have been. True, that is quite true. However, that is not the same as your initial argument.

I further note that businessmen doing business on the ground, such as the GM of Riyadh Cable who was intimately familiar with pre-war conditions describe the security and infrastructural situation as rather awful. I’ll note that Fadi Ghrandour, head of Aramex, a formerly NASDAQ listed transportation solutions firm (like DHL, focused on the Middle East and Asia – taken private last year or the year before) stated to me that although they are operative to serve NGOs, they send their people in Baghdad home by late afternoon because of the risk of car jacking and assassinations. That’s an improvement over a few weeks ago when noon was the cut off. I further note that per convos with others, such as the CEO and COO of MENAFN, conveyed to me their understanding that even experience businessmen with deep Iraqi connections do not dare travel about without teams of bodyguards, such is the state of the security situation.

Now, Ward is right, the worst case scenarios did not come to pass. That is rather different than the conditions being good and december’s predictable spin that ‘liberal’ media are distorting the situation.

I would also take with a grain of salt the statements in regards to the electrical grid insofar as in personal convos, CPA-I officials told me that they did not yet have consistent electrical power to their own hotel and Arab businessmen with whom I deal have not described the situation as having reached pre-war levels. Jaffa, in a personal conversation, described how rough work is, being fired upon every time he tries site inspections, returning to a hotel in central Baghdad (part of CPA-I setup) where the elevators can’t be used as you never know when the power will cut out, and where water is not regular. That’s CPA-I residence. Now imagine the rest of the country. In terms of prewar service, well, I can only point you all to the questions posed during the war as to why Baghdad was lit-up 24-7, no blackouts, and the lack of commentary on electrical outages in this period.

BTW some posters elsewhere have blamed the war for shortages of electric power. In fact, Saddam's government had already screwed up electric power distribution before the war.


The Iraqi electrical grid was running on baling twine and gum, sanctions being the major reason. I suppose blaming this on Sadaam is more or less correct in a very general sense.

More correct, however, is blaming the lack of control post war, which by all accounts had led to a serious deterioration in conditions across the board.

In any, you are contemptible lying scum who’ll stoop at nothing to spin whatever ideological fantasy you have. Trivializing the danger in which my amigos in CPA and in the NGOs are in presently, and for that matter the US and other service personnel, for the mere purpose of pimping your little fantasy world is frankly disgusting.

But further the security issues:

ISM 12/06/03 Security up-date
General
The overall trend of developments in the security situation remains of concern with a total of 12 incidents being noted. The key areas of concern remain as previously reported – Baghdad and the hinterland regions to the West and North.

In the past 24 hours, coalition forces conducted 8 raids and a total of 2.595 patrols throughout Iraq, including 253 joint patrols with Iraqi Police. A total of 264 suspects were arrested. Concerning the weapon turn-in program that is almost over, Iraqi citizen have delivered to CF weapons collection points a total of 85 pistol, 72 semi-automatic rifle or shotgun, 363 automatic rifle, 40 machine gun, 120 ant-tank weapon, 10 anti-air weapons, 230 grenade and other explosive devises.

The exchange rate IDinar US$ is 1450 IDinars for one US$ [CL: Relatively steady FXR]

Baghdad Region
The Baghdad region is the current key area of security concerns. The possible use of surface to air missiles along the approach/take off path for aircraft from Baghdad airport (BIAP) is a new development of concern to IOs/NGOs as well as to CF. [CL, n.b. non USM flights are currently suspended The region of Ramadi and Falluja is the scene of on-going military operations, with regular clashes between CF and Iraqi anti-CF forces taking place. Safety on the main highway passing through this area (Baghdad-Amman highway [CL: highway 10]) remains an issue, there are frequent reports of criminal armed attacks on the 50 km section of the highway near Ramadi, including 2 armed attacks in the past month upon diplomatic convoys travelling from Jordan to Baghdad and approximately 20 such attacks upon NGO vehicles in the past 2 months. [CL: does not count private convoy attacks, also said to be signif.]

Northern Region:
There have been 2 security incidents reported in the Mosul region.
Central Region:
No security incidents reported.
Upper South Region:
No security incidents reported.
Lower South region/Kuwait border:
Three security incidents reported.
12/06/03 @ 15:30 Map of security incidents in Baghdad (Sources C.F., UN and INGO)

1. HWY 01 Muzhik Ash Shawi, 11/06 @ 22:00. Ambush. C.F. patrol fired upon with small arms and RPG. Fourth attaks in that area in one week.
2. 08 Km south of BIAP runway threshold. 11/06@17:00. Possible surface to air missile launch.
[b]3. 30 Km south east of BIAP runway threshold. 11/06@17:00. Possible surface to air missile launch.
4. Mansur: 11/06 @ 09:00. Attempted of kidnapping of young Iraqi women. Exchange of
gun fire involving diplomatic security personal. One casualty.
Canal

12/06/03 @ 15:30 Map of security incidents in Iraq (Sources C.F., UN and INGO)
1. Basrah: Smuggling of explosive devices. 11/06 @ 11:00. C.F. detained seven Iraqi’s involved in an attempt of smuggling explosives.
2. In Kuwait: HWY 80 near Safwan hill, 11/06 @ 22:00 Sniper attacks.
3. Basrah: 10/06 @ 15:00 Shooting incident. No further details
4. Mosul: 12/06 @ 01:00 Attack on C.F.
5. Ramadi: 12/06 @ 01: 00. Attack on C.F. C.F. patrol attacked with small arms and hand grenades.
6. Mosul: 12/06 @ 01:00. Attack on C.F. C.F. patrol engaged by small arms.
7. Fallujah: 12/06 @ 24:00. Ambush attack on CF. C.F. convoy attacked with RPG.
8. Fallujah 09/06@19h30. Attack by armed criminals on diplomatic convoy.

Now as to the state of infrastructure, the latest report has 16 hours of electricity in Baghdad, which remains less than prewar levels per my understanding.

In regards to health, let me first note that both CPA-I and UN officials noted in briefings that I have attended or have been briefed on that the health reporting system in Iraq has completely broken down so no one really has a terribly good idea as to actual conditions, and in this context I speak to health professionals, not moronic dilettante ideologues driving through expecting to see “cholera” on the roadside.

I do share an extract from the UNOHCI briefing: Briefing NOTE to media Baghdad 12 05 03


Q BBC Arabic Can you tell us more about cholera and have you made any assessment here in Baghdad

Regarding cholera in Baghdad, we received some reports 2 weeks ago, a report form media saying they were cholera cases. WHO teams when they investigated the cases they confirmed there was no cholera cases ` at that time in Baghdad. I cannot confirm any case of cholera in Baghdad. But there is a great potential for this outbreak of cholera to re-emerge in Baghdad. In the north we do not have any confirmed case of cholera. The confirmed cases of cholera are from Basra. We found until yesterday evening that 45 to 50 suspected cases of cholera. WHO took 38 stool samples and they were examined in Basra laboratories. Out of all those cases 18 were confirmed. To be totally sure we have sent those cases to Kuwait to reconfirm.

This could be top of the iceberg, these are only from 3 health facilities in Basra and there are hundreds of facilities health centers, hospitals, primary care center. Many mild case of cholera do not come to hospitals. They treat them at home but it is very dangerous because it will spread the disease to all others. Very severe case of cholera only will be brought to hospitals for treatment. We have to take into consideration the issue of water sanitation electricity poverty and collapse of surveillance system and collapse of all public health programmes that I mentioned. We are afraid that the number of cases is much higher than what has been reported so far.

Do you have any advice for OHRA for them to deal with the health issue

As UN in order to help the people of Iraq we are in close coordination with the administration here, the civil administration, OHRA. The first advice I will give them, we went to the hospital today as I said and when the delegation lead by the Vice Foreign Minister asked what is your top priority for the hospital the director of the hospital told him; security. My first advice is that we need security of the health facilities, we need security of the health staff and we need security for the population so that they will be able to come freely to the health facility. At night the security is very bad, if there is any health problem in the family they will stay at home, security not only for the health sectors but for all sectors. My second advice will be there is a vacuum of power many people are taking advantage of that. Some of the hospitals, some of the primary health care centers and warehouses are protected not by coalition forces but by militias. This situation will affect the health of the population. My third advice is, since March the civil servants here have not received their salaries, March April and May without being paid. We are afraid that their tolerance will be over and very soon most of the critical staff that we have in the hospitals and centers will leave the job because of the lack of salaries. My last advice will concern the removal of those very dangerous parts of those cluster bombs that affect the health of the population particularly the children.


For an actual analysis of the rebuilding effort, I refer interested readers to the thread that Tom linked.

[Collounsbury]

So the lying sack of shit is trying to move his goal posts/


I claimed that things in Iraq were not as bad as was being rerported. Do you know what has been reported here?


Now we start the land of December revisionism, where up is down, warnings are reports and blogs are facts.

A couple of weeks ago I saw articles talking about widespread starvation.
P/quote]

Cite if motherfucker, cite it. Not warnings of potential starvation, not cautions as to potential problems if proper steps were not taken, actual reports of widespread starvation.

[quote]
I saw articles claiming that hospitals were overcrowded and they didn't have the necessary medical supplies.


And? It was correct. Your staggering hypocrisy and idiocy is at once loathsome and incredible.

Medical supplies had been looted, destroyed or were unavailable before they began to be moved in with combined efforts by the coalition forces and UNHCR.

Partly alleviated problems does not mean they did not exist.


I saw articles claiming that the oil infrastructure was such a shambles that it would be out of commission for a long time.


Well, it is in fucking shambles and it may very well be largely out of commission for a long time, but I rather suspect that what you are weaseling at here are the warnings that the oil infrastructure might be blow up or destroyed in combat. Now that did not happen.

So, moron boy, let’s keep things straight. Warnings are not factual reports, they’re warnings of scenarios that must be taken into account.


I saw articles predicting that the US occupation would be a total failure, because the Iraqi people would never accept it.


And again our resident moron makes sweeping declaration about a subject he knows nothing and indeed less than nothing about.

Certainly the occupation is not going fucking swimmingly, now is shit head? The little bit about security, and the items I have noted, not to mention the mass demonstrations against US presence, the recent upswing in organized violence against US forces….

Yes, this all speaks to an occupation that really has won the hearts and minds of the Iraqis, now hasn’t it? Oh yes, I know, its those convenient Saddam loyalists, at the heart of it. Oh and the Iranian agitators. Oh let’s not forget the Turkish Spec. Forc. in the Turcoman connexion.

Of course Saddam loyalists do indeed play some role in this, but the numbers and level of support rather imply an Iraq not thinking itself as ‘liberated’ – and in the same manner the Shiites show little enthusiasm for American forces, only tolerance, although oddly the Saddam resurgence in the North-Center may drive the Shiite Islamists to collaborate more with the Americans (and vice versa).


I believe that there is genuine suffering and lack of safety. I don't mean to minimize what the Iraqi people are going through.


Bull fucking shit. That precisely what you meant to do, your original comments in that moronic thread, and above, were not to prewar motherfucking reporting, you claimed it was current situation that was exaggerated, and not we have the typical, patented December motherfucking weaseling and your usual display of contemptible hypocrisy.


However, the hospitals never ran out of medicine and supplies,


That is lie. A complete motherfucking lie. You are contemptible lying hypocrite and scum. Even now due to security issues, while materials are around, there are serious issues in getting supplies to hospitals and medical supplies remain an issue. You can check out UN clearing house information on the evolution of the situation.

What makes this hypocritical lying posturing so contemptible is that the fact the supplies ran out need not be denied at all – given the looting and related circumstances, it was understandable and the coalition and UN have worked hard to correct the situation, although again, getting supplies to hospitals and clinics is problematic due to the security situation.

In addition to the UN sites avail I point those less moronic and blinkered to the following reporting:
Iraq's medical emergency 10 May 2003
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3014871.stm

Baghdad's hospitals in crisis 7 April 2003
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2924995.stm


and there never was widespread starvation.
]

Since this is your own little made up red herring, I am sure we can all be happy. It has fuck all to do with your original claim, you contemptible piece of lying garbage.

However, insofar as noted by CPA-I briefings themselves, most of the population is unable to supplement rations and insofar as there are serious problems in distribution due to insecurity, ‘starvation’ in the sense of malnutrition and serious undernourishment (versus starving to death) is indeed a bloody problem. Widespread hunger is and remains a problem since the collapse of the regime.

Supplementing information provided supra and also avail through UN and international coordination sources I note the following BBC stories to illustrate:

Iraqis' cupboards still bare
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2970158.stm

Daily hardships continue for Iraqis
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3050429.stm

Baghdad diary: Hard times
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2980635.stm


And, enough oil is already being pumped so that some is available for export, and the amount is increasing.


Well, that should make everyone feel all warm and cosy, now shouldn’t it? For all that it is not at all clear that this is the case, insofar as sabotage, including recent attacks on pipelines, continue to disrupt production. Sales to date are not from current production.

For an actual view of the sales negotiated, including status, see:
Iraqi oil flows again 12 June 2003
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2986118.stm

Now fuck the hell off, you lying hypocritical piece of contemptible filth. I’m sick to my stomach with your faux concern about Iraqis, Palestinians and others, your whinging distortions and hypocritical ideologically driven posturing, and your thinly disguised bigotry.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by Squink
Whatever happened to Wolowitz/Garner/Ward's pentagon based Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance for Iraq ? It shows up on google (http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=10&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=%22Office+of+Reconstruction+and+Humanitarian+Assistance+for+Iraq%22&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off), but is entirely absent from recent news items. Did everyone get shitcanned when Bremer came in to turn things around (http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/world/6057650.htm) ?


There was a house cleaning and it has now been transformed into "Coalition Provisional Authority" in Iraq. CPA-I in my notation. See my thread on reconstruction for further information.

[Sofa King]

december is right. The glass is half full. It just happens to be half full of my urine on the day of my annual STD test.

Drink up, pal.

[istara]

FYI it's not Al Jazeera that I work for.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by grienspace
I do trust the New York Times in light of recent embarassments far more than Istara's al-Jazeera.


Well a smear against Istara, followed by:

But then if I was about to attack the integrity of someone else, particularly a fellow member of this community, then I better have some evidence to back it up or shut up.

Since you bring nothing to the table you contemptible little worm, why not shut the fuck up.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Sorry to have ruffled your egomaniacal high-falutin moralistic feathers. Seems to me all you've done hear is provide your own op-ed piece to this forum.

Your continued campaign to lead the malicious attack on December for the entertainment of your sycophants is a blight on this messageboard and I will continue to say so. In fact, considering deep wrenching hatred you spew towards him has motivated your "op-ed" piece, It leaves me with wondering how credible the "facts" you reported are. Indeed, you are a sick, sick human being.

And you, least of all have no business in charging anyone with smearing others.

[Collounsbury]

Well my whinging little depends wearing worm, my facts come with citations to CPA-I and international security cordination office documentation and also correlate with the body of reporting on the situation, including by such non-liberal sources as the Financial Times and The Economist.

It's unsurprising I suppose in the end that you are too dim to tell the difference in quality of information.

[casdave]

I don't particularly creep and crawl to Collounsbury's meter, I find he can be abrasive to the point of rudeness, however december is very selective in who he quotes, what part of the total is quoted - often out of context, and simply refutes evidence whilst citing opinion from non-independant sources as fact.

I have not noticed [b]Collounsbury[b/] doing that, his links always check out, and he is not alone in his view either, and their cites check out.

If I were in [b]Collounsbury[b]'s position, where I was quoting details with which I had direct and personal experience, and was countered by someone who was so deliberately and willfully wrong, and in the face of what I knew and could prove, I think I would become less civil too.

[Desmostylus]

grienspace, you come across as one one the less intellectually blessed people on this board. Remember this? (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3549279#post3549279)It is my view that december is the arch non religious conservative member on this board . He shows a great deal of respect to everyone and is second only to Polycarp in this regard.There is no way in this fucking universe that december is any kind of non-religious conservative version of Polycarp.

1. december is quite open about his religion, it's not a secret that december has strong religious beliefs. That you would label him as non-religious is absolutely fucking bizarre.

2. december is a liar, a weasel, a distorter of facts. Polycarp is none of those things.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Desmostylus, the degree to which Collounsbury has brainwashed you is astounding. More so when you make it so clear that you Col sycophants have no reservations about spewing absolute untruths about him. So you say its no secret uh? Absolutely fucking bizarre is it ? You're absolutely fucking bizarre!

[The Flying Dutchman]

Oh, btw I just caught on to your strawman. I only compared December to Polycarp in regard to respecting others. Can you understand that?

[december]

Originally posted by Desmostylus
1. december is quite open about his religion, it's not a secret that december has strong religious beliefs. That you would label him as non-religious is absolutely fucking bizarre.I have said I was an atheist a number of times on this board.2. december is a liar, a weasel, a distorter of facts. You're wrong about this as well.

grienspace, after many debates with the learned Collounsbury, I have learned his language. Hidden within his verbosity and insults is an admission that I was right.

Recall that the OP of the other debate quoted columnist Mark Steyn, who had spent two weeks doing a solo auto tour of much of Iraq, but not Baghdad. He said: There's no dysentery or cholera, no sign of a human catastrophe, the medical centres are empty and medical supplies are adequate the countryside (outside Baghdad) is charming. The refugees are primarily Palestinian. "In other words, this isn't a human crisis but Arab politics - the longstanding refusal by Middle Eastern regimes to accord Palestinian residents any kind of legal status." Despite the supposed "anarchy", no one's fleeing. In the western towns, which were relatively unscathed by the war, the Ba'athist buildings are the sole target of highly focused looting. Everything else is untouched There's plenty of food and water. Collounsbury admitted that "the worst case scenarios did not come to pass." In other words, he admitted that Steyn was right.

[Desmostylus]

Originally posted by december
I have said I was an atheist a number of times on this board. You're wrong about this as well. Show me those instances, so that I may revise my opinion of you.

[Desmostylus]

My last post should read:Originally posted by december
I have said I was an atheist a number of times on this board. Show me those instances, so that I may revise my opinion of you.

[december]

Originally posted by Desmostylus
Show me those instances, so that I may revise my opinion of you. Try the "search" function.

[Desmostylus]

Just answer the question, weasel.

[Una Persson]

Now, Desmostylus, I do like you very much and hesitate to say this, but that's not very nice. You may have plenty of legitimate beefs with december's beliefs and topics, but making an accusation about him and requiring he prove himself innocent of it is just not cricket. Especially when Search is working right now.

First hit:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176977

I don't believe in Christianity, but I admire many its values.

[Una Persson]

Of course, that quote I posted says nothing about atheism. december could be a very devout Muslim and make such a statement as well... :D

[casdave]

No december

What Collounsbury was not that Steyn was right, but rather that things did not get as bad as they possibly could.

Your original position in the OP was in fact "Things in Iraq aren't that bad'.

Overstating the worst possible case scenario is one heck of a stretch from saying "Things in Iraq aren't that bad', and this is one powerful example of your distortion, I would have at least expected you would not try to be so blatent as to do this from your own OP!


He also added that due to information not coming in from the majority of medical centres in Iraq, it was actually impossible to say with real authority what the situation truly is.

from Collounsbury

Even now due to security issues, while materials are around, there are serious issues in getting supplies to hospitals and medical supplies remain an issue.



from december
the medical centres are empty and medical supplies are adequate


WTF? either one half of your statemnt is true, or the other, or neither, but it is not possible for it all to be tue.In any case this does not tally with your assertion that Collounsbury agrees with Steyn or yourself.

from december
no sign of a human catastrophe.................................

......................There's plenty of food and water.


..and the response
Collounsbury

However, insofar as noted by CPA-I briefings themselves, most of the population is unable to supplement rations and insofar as there are serious problems in distribution due to insecurity, ‘starvation’ in the sense of malnutrition and serious undernourishment (versus starving to death) is indeed a bloody problem. Widespread hunger is and remains a problem since the collapse of the regime.



This does not seem like a ringing endorsement of your OP december


Collounsbury admitted that "the worst case scenarios did not come to pass." In other words, he admitted that Steyn was right.




I just cannot see how you can reconcile Steyn, which you originally quoted, with Collounsbury this is a gross distortion and an extremely intellectually dishonest statement by you december

I cannot help but wonder if your last post is an attempt to get Collounsbury to cross the policy lines on the SDMB so he will be banned, it so little resembles what he actually posted that it is grotesque.

[iampunha]

It is a pity that [b[december[/b] has chosen a topic of actual importance upon which to build his Op-Ed empire.

Dear fellow, did nobody tell you, as a child, that the moon was made of green cheese? A far less offensive topic, and one that would generate considerably less ire, though to be fair I don't recall seeing many bloggers expounding on the virtues of various cheeses in its composition.

Or, at this point, are you just riding the wave of misinformation and blog-comme-verité to its bitter end?

[Weirddave]

Originally posted by milroyj
Just so we get this straight. You're not arguing his premise in this thread. You just want to bash him because he's December.

Got it.

Bee-eye-enn-gee-ohh, and Collunsbury is the worst of the lot. I wonder whose side I would take if I were plucked out of the 16th century, exposed to the threads on the SDMB and then asked who was most likely to be right? On one side there is a calm recounting of facts and opinions as the poster sees them, on the other is a ranting ideologue whose arguements are shakey and who relies 90% of the time on hearsay to back up his claims. I imagine that would be an easy choice. December, your arguements are frequently based on the most unlikely and unreliable of sources and you willfully allow your politics to blind you to the obvious, but you're certainly a poster I value having here, you make me think( don't get a swelled head, frequently the conclusion I reach after thinking is that you're wrong ;) ) Colls and the rest of his ilk feel that bombast and hysteria is a valid method of debate, frothing at the mouth with outrage and seeting with resentment simply because you're not blindly mouthing fealty to liberal ideology.

Oh, and in reguards to the OP, you're right, in spite of his profanity laced screed, Collunsbury basically admitted that you were right several times, Things in Iraq are not as bad as the doomsayers are trying to paint them. I think he's bitterly disapointed that most Iraqis aren't lying dead in the streets as we speak. Sure, it would be bad for the Iraqis, but wow, would it ever prove him right, and what's more important than that?

HOWEVER....

Things in Iraq are not "good" by any streach of the imagination, and I, also, would like to see a cite for your claim that some basic services in Iraq now excede pre-war levels. A Colunsburyeske "I heard it somewhere" dosen't cut it.

[minty green]

Desmostylus, I assure you that december has repeatedly and consistently identified himself as an atheist, though he frequently sympathizes with conservative Christian political points of view, even on church-state issues.


grienspace: Sorry to have ruffled your egomaniacal high-falutin moralistic feathers. Seems to me all you've done hear is provide your own op-ed piece to this forum.Are you high? Collounsbury provided assessments from the American authorities who are governing Iraq, right down to daily incident logs. He recounted the first-hand experiences of people he personally knows who do business inside Iraq. He provided multiple hard news stories, largely from sources that are anything but liberal. There wasn't an "op-ed piece" anywhere in his detailed, informative, and by-god welcome posts.

[DMC]

Originally posted by december
Before the war, those of us planning for post-conflict Iraq worried about these possibilities: up to one million refugees, widespread food shortages, epidemics, acute homelessness, a shutdown of the oil industry and general lawlessness.

In the end, only the last became reality....

Maybe I'm just a bit dense, but in my book:

"Things really aren't that bad" != General lawlessness

[Gary Kumquat]

Originally posted by Desmostylus
My last post should read: Show me those instances, so that I may revise my opinion of you.

This is a bit of a shocker, but...

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1832791&highlight=atheist#post1832791

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1832791&highlight=atheist#post1832791

[Eva Luna]

Originally posted by Weirddave
On one side there is a calm recounting of facts and opinions as the poster sees them, on the other is a ranting ideologue whose arguements are shakey and who relies 90% of the time on hearsay to back up his claims.

Doesn't it matter to you at all if the sources on which the calm person relies are opinion pieces based on third-hand information, and compiled by someone who as never set foot in the region, and who has an obvious political agenda? Or is it somehow inferior to rely on "hearsay" which actually consists of firsthand experience and personal conversations with people who have spent their careers dealing directly with the region, and transmitted by someone who has spent his career dealing with the region and therefore knows how to choose sources based on their relative objectivity and filter out the crap?

Or perhaps the mere fact of expert opinions being quoted by some conservative blog makes them somehow superior information sources, and the very same ideas are magically converted from "hearsay" into Shining Golden Objective Unquestionable Truth, by virtue of having appeared in print somewhere. Somehow the same "hearsay" doesn't seem to give you pause when it's been spun by a hawk with no regional or historical perspective.

[Weirddave]

Originally posted by Eva Luna
Doesn't it matter to you at all if the sources on which the calm person relies are opinion pieces based on third-hand information, and compiled by someone who as never set foot in the region, and who has an obvious political agenda? <snip>

Or perhaps the mere fact of expert opinions being quoted by some conservative blog makes them somehow superior information sources, and the very same ideas are magically converted from "hearsay" into Shining Golden Objective Unquestionable Truth, by virtue of having appeared in print somewhere. Somehow the same "hearsay" doesn't seem to give you pause when it's been spun by a hawk with no regional or historical perspective.


Do you even read what someone says before replying?
Originally posted by Weirddave
December, your arguements are frequently based on the most unlikely and unreliable of sources and you willfully allow your politics to blind you to the obvious
<snip>
frequently the conclusion I reach after thinking is that you're wrong


Originally posted by Eva Luna

Or is it somehow inferior to rely on "hearsay" which actually consists of firsthand experience and personal conversations with people who have spent their careers dealing directly with the region, and transmitted by someone who has spent his career dealing with the region and therefore knows how to choose sources based on their relative objectivity and filter out the crap?

Cite? Now, I have no reason to believe Collunsbury is not exactly what he says he is, but as a point of fact, him saying "I spoke to a business associate who had just returned from Iraq and he said XXX" is complete and total hearsay. For all I know "Collunsbury" cold be a 22 year old girl from Idaho who is majoring in Mid-East studies at Boise State. As a further point of fact, he's a less reliable source than people in the news media because he has no context. An article in the National Review is usually pretty straightforeward with it's bias, Colls likes to kick and scream that he's "telling the unvarnished truth because I'm living in the ME". Bully for Colls, but all he's doing is giving his opinion backed up with personal anecdotes. Sure, he backs up a lot of what he says with cites, I sincerely admire him for that, but I don't give him any special "If he says it it must be true" status. His opinion is just that: An opinion, no different than december's.

[wring]

I disagree that all opinions should be given the same weight.

If I see some one vomit forth an opinion taken word for word from some piece of crap email glurge, I'm not going to hold that persons opinion in the same regard that I would, say, another person who, when offering up their opinion offer up as well, reputable cites with data that backs up the validity of their opinion.

[Weirddave]

I agree wring, but Collunsbury tends not to offer opinions, he makes "grave pronouncements of truth" which are in fact just opinions with delusions of grandeur. With december, at least we can see which op-ed piece is influencing his thinking because he usually posts them.

[wring]

are you not noting the cites that he also posts to support his evaluation of the situation?

[december]

Originally posted by wring
If I see some one vomit forth an opinion taken word for word from some piece of crap email glurge... This thread was based on a column from the New York Times. I have have criticized the Times on these boards, wring, but never as harshly as you just did. ;)

[wring]

I didn't name you, december.

My statement was that I would tend to discredit those who seemed to base their opinions on incredible sources. You assumed I was talking about you? Is that an admission?

[december]

Originally posted by wring
I didn't name you, december.

My statement was that I would tend to discredit those who seemed to base their opinions on incredible sources. You assumed I was talking about you? Is that an admission? You got me, wring. :smack:

[Weirddave]

Originally posted by wring
are you not noting the cites that he also posts to support his evaluation of the situation?

I did say..

he backs up a lot of what he says with cites, I sincerely admire him for that, but I don't give him any special "If he says it it must be true" status. His opinion is just that: An opinion, no different than december's.

6 posts up.

[samclem]

december said This thread was based on a column from the New York Times. I have have criticized the Times on these boards, wring, but never as harshly as you just did

wring did not, in any way, just criticize the NY Times.

What I read in the post was a generic statement that criticizes anyone who posts things that are not backed up by facts. The second part of the post was suggesting that a post, backed up by facts, was more valuable.

And, please, please, december--quit using the NY Times as vetting your opinions when you choose, and castigating them when they don't concur with the far-right wing lunacy that passes for truth in some columns today.

You can't have it both ways. Please try to talk about the person who wrote the OP-ED piece, rather than tout the newspaper in which it appeared. You only leave yourself open to even more derision. If that can be possible.

[wring]

which brings us full circle dave, hence my confusion at your position.

You stated, and I disagreed, that we should treat all folks' opinions the same, and I suggesteted that if one was able to back theirs up w/cites etc, we could tend to lend more weight to theirs, vs. the glurg quoting person and you seemed to agree. then repeated your comments about Col, which seems to disagree with that.

So, I'm still unclear about your point. To name names, which I didn't before, at this point in this thread, december linked to an opinion column, vs. COl's linking to severeal news stories, in addition to his personal observations from the area.

So, even discounting the personal observations, we're left with op/ed piece vs. several news stories.

(and even though I disgree w/you damn near all the time, etc, I must acknowledge the graciousness of that last post december even if I didn't put a smiley in mine)

[Eva Luna]

Originally posted by Weirddave
Do you even read what someone says before replying?

In a word, yes.

Now, I have no reason to believe Collunsbury is not exactly what he says he is, but as a point of fact, him saying "I spoke to a business associate who had just returned from Iraq and he said XXX" is complete and total hearsay. For all I know "Collunsbury" cold be a 22 year old girl from Idaho who is majoring in Mid-East studies at Boise State.

Yes, pretty much everyone on this board could be a big fat liar; I accept that. However, I judge people in part based on their track record in making predictions, as well as how well they fit information into a sensible context and point out/filter out its biases openly. I think Collounsbury's track record in that department speaks for itself. And if he's actually a 22-year-old college student in Idaho, he/she has a bright future in political analysis. In the meantime, I have no reason to disbelieve him.


As a further point of fact, he's a less reliable source than people in the news media because he has no context. An article in the National Review is usually pretty straightforeward with it's bias, Colls likes to kick and scream that he's "telling the unvarnished truth because I'm living in the ME". Bully for Colls, but all he's doing is giving his opinion backed up with personal anecdotes. Sure, he backs up a lot of what he says with cites, I sincerely admire him for that, but I don't give him any special "If he says it it must be true" status. His opinion is just that: An opinion, no different than december's. [/B]

Just an opinion: true. No different than december's: false. december would be the first to say that he has no particular expertise in M.E. affairs beyond that which any literate person could gain by following current events.

My main point was that personal anecdotes do not gain any additional magical powers merely by being put into print somewhere. Provided you accept that Collounsbury is not a liar, then the sources whose personal anecdotes he cites are frequently of the type/nature that are just as likely to be cited by mainstream news sources. Bonus: the info they provide him isn't filtered down to a 6th-grade reading level.

[december]

Originally posted by Eva Luna
No different than december's: false. december would be the first to say that he has no particular expertise in M.E. affairs beyond that which any literate person could gain by following current events. Right. There's no doubt that Collounsbury knows far more about the Middle East thian I do. I certainly appreciate having him on the board.

Also, it may not be obvious from the tone of some of these posts. Collounsbury and my cites don't disagree, at least not very much. My cites listed a bunch of ways in which conditions in Iraq were better than had been reported. Collounsbury mentioned a bunch mostly other ways in which conditions were still bad or, at least, problematic.

The same comment applies to Istara, who also surely knows far more than I do about the Middle East.

[leander]

So what's the fucking point of this thread then, december? Simply to say "I told you so"? Are you so incredibly needy and attention-seeking that you have to run around blowing nonsense up people's asses to try to get a reaction? Get a fucking hobby, fer-Christsakes...

Hey, did you successfully predict that the loss of life in the World Trade Centers was less than initially reported? Well good for you. How about those Columbine shootings?

You're taking (what is to many people) a tragic situation and using it to (a) further your own agenda, and (b) gleefully shout "I told you so."

Congrats - you're hitting a new low.

[Desmostylus]

I stand corrected. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1261062#post1261062)Originally posted by december
In response to the survey, I'm a Jewish atheist. Easter makes no more sense to my intellect than any religious practice. On the other hand, I acknowledge that Easter and other relgious holidays and ceremonies benefit many people in psychological ways. E.g., despite non-belief, even I was quite moved at the circumcision ceremony for my first grandchild six weeks ago.

[milroyj]

Collounsbury, why don't you go bump your own thread in GD (you know, the thread that no one posted to in over a month) just to hear yourself pontificate?

Wait, you already did. Never mind, carry on, old chap. :rolleyes:

[minty green]

Fuck right the fuck off, milly. I've gotten better information in that thread than any half-witted blogspotting threadspammer could ever possibly contribute to these discussions.

Collounsbury added extraordinarily informative information to a GD thread that was already more than a page long. And guess what? A half dozen posters quickly thanked him for the update and asked further questions regarding the situation on the ground.

Try not to be such a gigantic pussy and engage the issues on their merits. Just for a change.

[TVeblen]

Originally posted by Eva Luna

My main point was that personal anecdotes do not gain any additional magical powers merely by being put into print somewhere. Provided you accept that Collounsbury is not a liar, then the sources whose personal anecdotes he cites are frequently of the type/nature that are just as likely to be cited by mainstream news sources. Bonus: the info they provide him isn't filtered down to a 6th-grade reading level.

Bingo and brava. I don't "know" anyone's real life credentials here. For example, I don't "know" that AirmanDoors, Bluesman etc. are actually in the U.S. military. I don't "know" that QtM or DrJ are actually medical doctors either. Extrapolate at will. But internal coherence is damned hard to pull off over the long haul. Some poseurs have tried but none have lasted long. Credibility is earned but frankly I take everything written here with many grains of salt. Any info, no matter how honestly offered, is still filtered through personal lenses.

With that caveat, some info is more credible than others. I don't care a whoop in hell whether it's acerbic or downright scathing in delivery. (It'd take a lot to out-do the excesses of talk radio.) I do care, very much, how credibly opionons are backed up. I'm sick to death of blogs and media-for-bucks blather. Approach it however you like, folks, but this really doesn't reduce down to a Collounsbury vs. december pay-per-view cage brawl.

Anybody with half a functioning brain is daunted by grim reality. Shit happens: deal. That's no excuse for turning off the half of your brain that's still working. Clever and committed amount to...zilch. Back it up, fairly and dispassionately, or get out of the game.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Originally posted by Desmostylus
I stand corrected. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1261062#post1261062)

What? That's it. Does that now make you "one one the less intellectually blessed people on this board" ? Were you not being "absolutely fucking bizarre"

Perhaps you should slink away to lurkdom for awhile and learn to get your facts right before you start spouting off. You looked like a complete jackass.

[Collounsbury]

Awww, does widdle Milly want some attention now? Did he go poop in his depends?

Originally posted by milroyj
Collounsbury, why don't you go bump your own thread in GD (you know, the thread that no one posted to in over a month) just to hear yourself pontificate?

Wait, you already did. Never mind, carry on, old chap. :rolleyes:

[Collounsbury]

Listen you stupid drooling idiot, there is no fucking admission you were right, nor Steyn because you’re both wrong no matter your crab like scuttling to redefine your argument.


• There's no dysentery or cholera,


Well, there is cholera reported, so bingo, one down. Of course how the fuck a journalist driving through the country can come to an opinion on the extent and prevalence of cholera, a diahreal disease, I am hard pressed to imagine. Never mind he did not travel through the areas where it is reported to be an issue.

The extent of the cholera risk at present is impossible to tell because the health information system has broken down.


• no sign of a human catastrophe,


Well, I guess given the word catastrophe and the assertion are undefined it's hard to argue this one way or the other.


* the medical centres are empty and medical supplies are adequate


An assertion that I have refuted. As a point of fact, the evidence in news reports and UN assessments indicate there were severe shortages which have only partly been eased by the very humanitarian organization you and Steyn are pissing on like fucking morons.


• the countryside (outside Baghdad) is charming.


Irrelevant of course. Lot's of things are charming, the deep desert is charming. It also is deadly.


• The refugees are primarily Palestinian. "In other words, this isn't a human crisis but Arab politics - the longstanding refusal by Middle Eastern regimes to accord Palestinian residents any kind of legal status."


And the Zionist Conserv-Porn assertion of the day.

In other words, you both can shove your Likoudist agitprop up your asses, or provide some documentation on the issue.

By the way, idiot boy, documentation means documentation, not fucking blogs.


• Despite the supposed "anarchy", no one's fleeing.


Supposed anarchy eh? The statement is neither here nor there. We have the syllogism if Anarchy then Refugees. Well, that's simply not a logical argument. There are many reasons why people are not fleeing, including lack of means and resources, fear of losing all and hope things will in the end work out. That does not refute the documented problems noted.


• In the western towns, which were relatively unscathed by the war, the Ba'athist buildings are the sole target of highly focused looting. Everything else is untouched


Assertion which does not match the damage assessments from CPA and UN, of course, I don’t know how our fucking assholes are judging “Baath” affiliation. Certainly of course there are minor towns and the like where the damage has been inconsequential, however the balance and the import is where the main centers of activity, although your lying and disingenuous refocusing on some minor towns versus main centers of activity is par for the course.


• There's plenty of food and water.


Again refuted.


Collounsbury admitted that "the worst case scenarios did not come to pass." In other words, he admitted that Steyn was right.


No, you lying piece of shit, one does not equal the other. Worst case scenarios prepared for pre-war – preparations for which helped avert them – are not “exaggerations” you moronic piece of worthless lying garbage, they are scenarios. Actual reporting seems to match CPA reporting on conditions quite well, that is, the media’s portrayal of the situation in Iraq is and has been actually close to if not perfectly identical to CPA and UN non-political assessments.

I may add the following from our lying sack of shit’s original OP

• Western reporters who insist that America is "losing the peace".
• The Red Cross and Oxfam, who are trying to find a problem to fix
• The World Food Program, who is being asked to distribute free food, which is unnecessary and which will hurt local shop-keepers


Rather makes clear that his point was not about pre-war planning, no our lying piece of hypocritical garbage was trying to pimp the journo piece of shit’s distortions that all is fine in Iraq, that things are just going swimmingly. The lying scumbag upon which December hung his contention that Iraq is just fine made a great deal of hay in the article about current conditions, that he had not needed to pull his gun, that he did not fucking “see” cholera, and apparently although having undertaken a thousand KM trip in but two weeks or so, was able to do inventories of the medical establishment refuting UN and CPA estimations which I have quoted in part above.

In brief then, unlike my interlocutors, who whinge on, pissing in their fucking diapers and posture about ‘language,’ I’ve provided substance – even discount at your own ignorance my personal reporting – on the current situation in Iraq (see also of course the GD for further views).

The data rather go to show that december’s contention that conditions are not bad in Iraq, that the security situation is not serious and even deteriorating, that the news media have exaggerated the problems in Iraq is entirely bankrupt. Of course our whinging liar then has tried to move the goal posts. I believe Gary Kumquat had this as one of his five pillars of decembrism. ( I note typically December did not respond to the substance or to my challenging his claims on reporting but chose mischaracterization )

Now, fellow traveling morons are pissing their little diapers that I’ve been a bit harsh here. Well, dumbfucks, there’s a GD thread on Iraq Reconstruction which touches on many of the same issues, if you think you can argue with me, come right on over and I shall to illustrate your idiocy w/o this small compensation to myself for my time and effort, in fully expressing my contempt for you.

Otherwise, until someone starts producing something some real data, fuck the hell of you whinging little worms.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by december
Right. There's no doubt that Collounsbury knows far more about the Middle East thian I do. I certainly appreciate having him on the board.


Wonderful, I am honored right down to my pinky.

Afraid I can't say the same about you.


Also, it may not be obvious from the tone of some of these posts. Collounsbury and my cites don't disagree, at least not very much.


Well, the link to the Ward OP may fall into that category but not your stupid fucking lying journo.


My cites listed a bunch of ways in which conditions in Iraq were better than had been reported.


Again [dimwit, you manage to no doubt deliberately confuse several issues
(a) Pre War warnings over worst case scenarios. Humanitarian and other orgs are in the business of planning for the worst - if they don't they get caught with their pants down. Lying ideologues such as yourself and your fucking British ideo-pimp like to distort this, but the reality is warnings are not predictions, they're part of a rational planning process. Had UN WFP, HCR, IMO and indeed US forces and USAID admins not planned for bad conditions they would not have had the material in place to alleviate the current situation, which remains not good at all.
(b) Actual reporting on actual conditions (which change over time) - here again you deliberately conflate, as part of your sick little agenda (a) with (b) and then pretend that reports in April are discredited when because of CPA-I and UN actions, conditions are alleviated in May and in June - as well as deliberately down-playing actual problems that continue.

None of the material I have provided support your original assertions that the media are exagerating problems in Iraq (actual to time of reporting) or that there are not serious issues for the CPA-I that do indeed 'threaten to lose the peace.'


Collounsbury mentioned a bunch mostly other ways in which conditions were still bad or, at least, problemtic.


No, not other you lying piece of garbage, direct to the point of your claims, however much your verminous scutling to new ground tries to disguise the fact.

[Nomadic_One]

"april is in my mistress' face, april is in my mistress' face, but in her heart a cold december"...........

[Collounsbury]

A final point on the personal reporting issue:

Very valid, and I believe I can fairly be said to strive to support personal reporting with other sources, rather than simply argue from my own authority. I also endeavor to provide materials which can be cross-checked, although I have not given my sources on all.

I am well aware that to trust my own reporting is to accept unverified representations. And I am as well aware that while I could verify for all who I am and what I do, that would rather 'blow my cool' in my opinion, insofar as the thin veneer of anonym. allows me to be free in my comments. For that I recently declined a 'real life' offer to write a column on these issues with a regional news organization.

In the end, it is quite right to observe that my reporting on personallyt sourced information is hearsay. I do believe on one hand I have an excellent track record on presenting information that has stood up to the test of time, on the other hand, yes it is hearsay. however my hearsay at minimum is backed by a record, and I do claim that at the very least, I go to no small lengths to provide outside sourcing to cross reference which is both substantive and from sources of no small credibility.

I dare anyone to make the same statement about december.

[elf6c]

grienspace and december have we found those WMD's yet? No. Any UN Banned weapons then? Hello? Bueller?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62664-2003Jun15.html

:rolleyes:

And all those Iraqi protests and attacks - another liberal conspiracy I take it?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37082-2003Jun9.html

How would you like to be Tony Blair right now? Without a Fox News Channel mouthpiece to provide his spin without analysis, he seems to be taking it in the shorts.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62983-2003Jun15.html

Of course maybe my using unbiased sources screwed up my search. Hmmm, is there a filter that just returns Op-Ed pieces and ultra right-wing web sites as results?


:confused:

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by elf6c
grienspace and december have we found those WMD's yet? No. Any UN Banned weapons then? Hello? Bueller?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62664-2003Jun15.html


I should defend this point in the interest of absolute fairness, first it has nothing directly to do with the state of Iraq, and secondly it is as of yet an unproven point - except that the scaremongering chicken little scenarios december et al were pimping pre war were clearly false. On the other hand, I fully expect some level of NBCs, probably only theater level chemical weapons (i.e. tactical usage only) and perhaps some biological capacity.

As the for core topic: insofar as some feel they have something to say on the topic of the current state of Iraq, and if they want GD disc. w/o Pit materials, I invite them to Iraq Reconstruction should be they have any substance: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=179177&pagenumber=2

[december]

Originally posted by Collounsbury
Pre War warnings over worst case scenarios. Humanitarian and other orgs are in the business of planning for the worst - if they don't they get caught with their pants down.Humanitarian orgs spin for the worst. They don't plan for the worst, because they don't have the resources to solve the worst case. All they can do is distribute whatever resources they have. They provide lots of valuable help, but they can't solve the problem themselves.

By promoting a pessimistic POV, humanitarian orgs make themselves more important and justify more donations and funding. It's natural for any organization to promote the importance of what they do. Organizations from the ACLU to the National Rifle Assn. perpetually claim that their area of interest is now facing critical threats.

However, the pessimism of humanitarian orgs in Iraq led to a three-step dynamic. Humanitarian orgs put out ultra-pessimistic scenarios. Media report these scenarios as if they're actually occurring or are likely to occur. America-bashers use these media reports "prove" that Bush and Rumsfeld are fucking up post-war Iraq.

[The Flying Dutchman]

CollounsburyWell, there is cholera reported, so bingo, one down. Of course how the fuck a journalist driving through the country can come to an opinion on the extent and prevalence of cholera, a diahreal disease, I am hard pressed to imagine. Never mind he did not travel through the areas where it is reported to be an issue.

Well, to your credit, you do not credit a newspaper column for this "fact". You just made a statement of fact on what basis? According to this site (http://www.who.int/emc/diseases/cholera/choltbld2002.html) cholera has even been reported in America last year although granted not in Iraq.

So a search on Google for cholera this morning gave me this "grave" report (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefield/10554979255.htm) at best to support your claim. Note that only a risk is reported, no cholera outbreak.

Since this claim of yours was to respond to December's claim that things are not as bad in Iraq as first reported, I must say it falls flat.

Now try to overcome your fixation with diapers,depends and the associated bodily fluids.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by grienspace
Well, to your credit, you do not credit a newspaper column for this "fact". You just made a statement of fact on what basis?


See the prior page idiot boy. Read for comprehension this time. Hint, under UNOHCI briefing: Briefing NOTE to media Baghdad 12 05 03.

Really Greeny, you should change your diapers more often.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by december
Humanitarian orgs spin for the worst. They don't plan for the worst, because they don't have the resources to solve the worst case.


Ah that's your opinion, and insofar as I don't see you have experience or exposure to humanitarian orgs, I'll just say that you are worth less than the crud in my amigos toes who do the work. Worthless piece of posturing shit.

Te rest is just your typical posturing. I note you've not supported a single assertion to date with anything approaching facts.

[december]

Originally posted by Collounsbury
I note you've not supported a single assertion to date with anything approaching facts. You asserted that, "Humanitarian and other orgs are in the business of planning for the worst - if they don't they get caught with their pants down." You comment implies that by planning for the worst, these orgs can deal with the worst. Where's the proof for your assertion? Can you link us to actual plans where humanitarian organzations were going to deal with the worst case?

I said these orgs promote a worst case POV, but they do only what they can, which is to distribute the resources they have. I said that media promote that POV.

Here's an example of the UN promoting a worst case POV: Iraq in danger of starvation, says UN (http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,953659,00.html) Note the media spin. The article includes no balance. There are no quotes from spokesperson who believe things aren't as bad as the UN says they are.

Furthermore, although the UN pointed out a lot of concerns and problems there's nothing in the article about any plan by which the UN will solve all the problems.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by december
You asserted that, "Humanitarian and other orgs are in the business of planning for the worst - if they don't they get caught with their pants down." You comment implies that by planning for the worst, these orgs can deal with the worst. Where's the proof for your assertion?


What the fuck are you talking about you contemptible lying sack of hypocritical shit?

Recall the fucking article you based your dumb fucking OP on or the motherfucking sack of shit who wrote Iraq is great?

Recall the refugee camps planned and laid out in case people came out of Iraq? You recall pissing and moaning about the waste, well that is planning and organizing for a worst case scenario. I happen to know the folks who worked on that, indeed the team leader is an American and a Republican to boot. However, he's not a worthless whinging lying ideological sack of shit willing to run down and piss on people doing real work and putting their fucking lives on the line.

Your worthless disgusting criticisms of these people really puts you with the lowest of the low, the most contemptible morally bankrupt lying pieces of scum I have ever encountered.

You frankly disgust me, you fucking lying piece of garbage.


Can you link us to actual plans where humanitarian organzations were going to deal with the worst case?


Yes, I can you piece of lying scum, althogh I don't why I should bothre since you will simply gutllessly smear and run down the people doing dangerous yoeman work in areas where you can get summarily shot, hit a mine and otherwise die a gruesome death.

I'm not going to kill myself serving you information that you'll jsut ignore, so just follow the various links through this:
http://www.developmentgateway.org/node/481546/

So fuck you. You disgust me. Fucking asshole running down people who put their lives on the line for a fucking bullshit political point.

[Gyrate]

Originally posted by Collounsbury
So fuck you. You disgust me. Fucking asshole running down people who put their lives on the line for a fucking bullshit political point. Would you go so far as to say that all this negative talk about NGOs is damaging their morale, and possibly thereby endangering lives? After all, if the NGOs get discouraged and pull out of Iraq, just think of the consequences...

[Boo Boo Foo]

Coll, my friend? Sometimes you need to know when it's best just to walk away. December likes the attention... you know that... but the truth is the truth. There will always be folks like December who WANT to believe their own rose-coloured agendas. It's not something we can change by losing our cool sadly...

There's not much we can do about it. Console yourself with this reality Coll... in just one 24 hour period, you probably speak to, and experience more interesting, wide ranging, worldly folks that December does in an entire year. Consider the likely life that December leads and compare it with yours. I'm willing to wager who leads the more fulfilling, interesting life.

So... as I said... time to walk away. You're better than silly threads like this...

[december]

Originally posted by Collounsbury
Fucking asshole running down people who put their lives on the line for a fucking bullshit political point. Let's compare this insult with what your cite actually says. E.g., UNEP Releases Desk Study on Iraq, Works to Save Marshlands

Iraq’s natural environment has been a priority in two recent initiatives of the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP). Its Post Conflict Assessment Unit has released a Desk Study of the Environment in Iraq aimed at providing a timely overview of key environmental issues in the context of the recent conflict. The study provides background, maps, satellite images, and discussions about water, waste, oil, minefields, weapons, biodiversity and administrative issues.

UNEP has called attention, in addition, to the deterioration of Iraq’s Mesopotamian Marshlands which, prior to the 1990s, had been an environmentally rich area of the country. Under Saddam’s regime, dams and drainage canals prevented the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers from flooding the marshlands when spring snow melted from the highlands. At the end of the recent conflict, mechanical diggers broke the levees and opened control structures, allowing water to sweep into the desiccated landscape. An international meeting of experts was held in late May to discuss cooperation in assisting the marshlands.Four step are listed:
-- Releasing a Desk Study
-- Calling attention
-- Breaking the levees
-- Holding a meeting

Your cite says that UNEP did the first two items. I suppose UNEP representatives will be at the international meeting, regardless of who called it. The cite leaves it unclear as whether the UN or some other organization broke the levees. But, credit for the opportunity to bring the marshlands back to life belongs to American and British soldiers, under the leadership of Bush, Rumsfeld, and Blair for providing the leadership. Those who criticize the military are the ones who deserve the epithet "running down people who put their lives on the line for a fucking bullshit political point."

Nor is this an example of planning for the worst case. The ecological damage to these marshes is atrocious. The UN will do what it can, but it doesn't guarantee to return the marshes to their prior conditions.

The Database Project

Farther down, your UN cite says, To support coordination, the Humanitarian Information Center for Iraq is tracking project activities. In order to do this, a database will be created that capture which organisations are carrying out which activities in which locations - in other words, Who is doing What Where. I'm quite the expert in database projects. I've worked on a great many in my career. All were trumpeted as being grand solutions, but most turned out to be worthless. In the case of those that did have some value, a hand-written list would often have served the same purpose. That would appear to be true here, where a fairly manageable number of projects will be conducted.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally posted by Desmostylus
2. december is a liar, a weasel, a distorter of facts.
Maybe not a liar or a weasel but he does have a history of posting out-of-context and questionable cites from books, FOAFs, biased websites, while omitting generous portions that disagree with him (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2441246&highlight=december+lies#post2441246), and backpedals so fast that anyone reading gets whiplash. Whether or not he lies or otherwise doesn't really believe in everything he posts is debatable.

I've learned that debating with december is an exercise in futility. He is a selective reader and tends to declare a discussion dead once he is no longer amused by it.

Note: linked thread was originally longer; at least one page was lost due to the snafu during our Winter of Missed Content

[december]

Originally posted by Jeff Olsen
but he does have a history of posting out-of-context and questionable cites from books... It's wrong for me to quote from a book. It's wrong for Linda Tripp to consider writing a book. Books should only be used by annointed liberals. It's simply improper for conservatives to have anything to do with books. ;)

[sailor]

Jeff Olsen, that thread was a classic of december. He is totally immune to any kind of reason and obviously has no sense of ridicule or embarrassment.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally posted by december
It's wrong for me to quote from a book. I wouldn't go that far. Problem was, you were quoting from a book that is not easily independently verified but (IIRC) also has questionable facts. Much like yourself.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally posted by sailor
Jeff Olsen, that thread was a classic of december. He is totally immune to any kind of reason and obviously has no sense of ridicule or embarrassment. Yeah, he was really digging himself into a pit there. Anyone wondering why december is so universally disliked around here (e.g.: grienspace) should read it, even though I think the best part was lost when it was truncated.

[december]

Originally posted by Jeff Olsen
Problem was, you were quoting from a book that ...(IIRC) also has questionable facts. Much like yourself. The book, Guide to the Perfect Latin American Idiot
by Plinio Apuleyo Mendoza, Carlos Alberto Montaner, and Alvaro Vargas Llosa, was a best seller in Latin America. It criticized the leftist governments of Latin America. Naturally, the book was praised by the right and criticized by the left (http://reason.com/0008/bk.gg.banana.shtml). Guide to the Perfect Latin American Idiot created a sensation when it was first published in Spanish in 1996. In a region where the left lords over the intellectual realm, any book defending markets, free trade, and el gran Satàn up north would have triggered widespread spells of fainting and speaking in tongues. But the blood lust with which this book mutilated its targets--pretty much everybody from Simon Bolivar to Fidel Castro--was something special. The reactions varied from exuberance (in Panama, President Ernesto Perez Balladares went on television to announce he'd ordered his cabinet members to read the book) to outrage (in Peru, a bookstore owner recognized one of the authors and had to be dragged away by his own staff as he shrieked insults).The fact remains this book is a main-stream, serious publication. Yet based on nothing but your own opinion you feel free to criticize the book and to criticize me for citing it. Although I have no doubt that you want to be open-minded, the effect is to justify your ignoring an opposing POV.

How about reading the book? I'd be happy to debate it with you.

[elf6c]

[mini-hijack]Oops he did it again:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&e=2&u=/nm/20030616/pl_nm/iraq_usa_bush_dc_3

The Washington Post on Monday cited a former National Security Council counterterrorism aide under Bush as saying the administration's focus on Iraq undermined domestic security and counterterrorism alliances and could fuel al Qaeda recruiting efforts.

The aide, Rand Beers, resigned shortly before the Iraq war and is now security adviser for Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts.

The Post quoted Beers as saying the evidence used against Iraq was "pretty qualified" and that many of his government colleagues thought Iraq was an "ill-conceived and poorly executed strategy."

"I continue to be puzzled by it," he told the newspaper. "Why was it such a policy priority?"



december? Going to duck this one too?

[/mini-hijack]

The article includes no balance. There are no quotes from spokesperson who believe things aren't as bad as the UN says they are.


Btw- the man who cites to OP-Ed pieces and rush limbaugh's web site with a straight face decrying the UN's story for balance. Heh heh heh, good one. A fine use of ironic humor- much better then those sad attempts at limricks. What?

[december]

Originally posted by elf6c
december? Going to duck this one too? I am debating Beers right now on another thread. Btw- the man who cites to OP-Ed pieces and rush limbaugh's web site with a straight face decrying the UN's story for balance. Heh heh heh, good one. A fine use of ironic humor- much better then those sad attempts at limricks. What?When I'm debating, I'm usually a partisan. I make no secret of that. I find sources and arguments to substantiate my POV. Newspaper columns and editorials do the same.

But, a straight newspaper article is supposed to be unbiased and balanced. You think it's ironic that a news article is as partisan as one of my zealous arguments. I think it's pathetic.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally posted by december
The book, Guide to the Perfect Latin American Idiot
by Plinio Apuleyo Mendoza, Carlos Alberto Montaner, and Alvaro Vargas Llosa, was a best seller in Latin America. It criticized the leftist governments of Latin America. Naturally, the book was praised by the right and criticized by the left (http://reason.com/0008/bk.gg.banana.shtml). The fact remains this book is a main-stream, serious publication. Yet based on nothing but your own opinion you feel free to criticize the book and to criticize me for citing it. Although I have no doubt that you want to be open-minded, the effect is to justify your ignoring an opposing POV. Originally posted by sailor (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2441905&highlight=december+book+wrong#post2441905) (bolding mine)
december, a book may be wrong. If it contradicts the rest of the known universe then it certainly *is* wrong. Your friend may be wrong, he may be mistaken or he may be lying. It happens to you all the time and it can happen to your friend. He even may be non existant. All we have is your word that he exists and he said so. Can we question him? How did he gain knowledge that the practice was sponsored by the state? Who did he talk to? What are his sources? Can we ask him a few questions? I am quite certain his mistake or lie would be quite evident if we could question him. And, please, don't tell us you have received many emails from unnamed people who side with you on this. Your friends imaginary or not are hearsay if not made up or distorted evidence. Bring him here so we can chat with him and question him. In the meanwhile that piece of evidence is worthless.

>> What are you going to beleive? What sailor tells you or your own eyes?

I *know* Cuba you dumbbass! I have been to Cuba personally. I have friends there and I have Cuban friends in Florida and in Spain. A couple years ago a friend of mine in Spain helped a Cuban friend of ours escape from Cuba although his wife was left behind. She is waiting for her chance. They have clandestine access to email and ICQ and we communicate with them relatively often. For some months I had an ongoing relationship with a Cuban girl and the only way to communicate with her was by email through these friends. You think I do not know Cuba? What the fuck do *you* know about Cuba?

You read a book, but you won't tell us what the book says. Just like president Bush we have to trust you when you say the evidence is damning. My guess is the book does not say what you say it says. My guess is you are lying like you often do. The book has an intro by Vargas Llosa. So what? I still don't know what it says. It probably does not support your position at all. If it does, it is wrong as it contradicts all available evidence. The fact the Vargas LLosa wrote an intro means nothing. He may know the author and not much about the contents of the book.

This is clearly a waste of time. You are asking us to take your word (that in itself is laughable) that you have a book that says what you say it says but you refuse to answer any concrete questions. We just have to take your word that the Cuban government forced children into prostitution. It's in a book but the greatest opponents of Cuba, the US government and the Cuban expats, have never heard about this. huh?Gee, this is a tough one. Should I believe sailor or someone with a proven track record of being selective with his cites?
originally posted by december
How about reading the book? I'd be happy to debate it with you. Sorry, it's not available from my local library; besides, I try to avoid pointless exercises. Especially one that has potential to come to an abrupt halt when the person responsible for initiating said exercise decides it isn't fun anymore.

[december]

Originally posted by Jeff Olsen
Gee, this is a tough one. Should I believe sailor or someone with a proven track record of being selective with his cites?The best course would be for you to believe neither of us, but rather to read the book and make your own judgments.Sorry, it's not available from my local library; Too bad. I found it at mine. My library will get specific books from outside the library system via the Reference Desk. Maybe you could get it that way. besides, I try to avoid pointless exercises. Especially one that has potential to come to an abrupt halt when the person responsible for initiating said exercise decides it isn't fun anymore. :confused: Are you saying it would be pointless for you to read the book yourself? Or, that it's pointless to debate it? Or, something else?

[Lute Skywatcher]

Should anyone need evidence of december abandoning threads:two (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=132692#post2418148) links (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2420340&highlight=december+selling+innocent#post2420340).

Avoiding Great Debates has its benefits. I'm able to avoid much of december's inane chatter.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally posted by december
:confused: Are you saying it would be pointless for you to read the book yourself? Or, that it's pointless to debate it? Or, something else? Could be one, could be the other, could be both. But it doesn't really matter, does it?

[Eva Luna]

Originally posted by december
In a region where the left lords over the intellectual realm, any book defending markets, free trade, and el gran Satàn up north would have triggered widespread spells of fainting and speaking in tongues.

The reviewer may be speaking in some toungue or another, but it sure ain’t correct Spanish. There is a linguistic error in the review; “el gran Satàn” doesn’t exist in Spanish, because the accent grave doesn’t exist in Spanish (although it does exist in French and Catalan).

Maybe I’m an anal-retentive Romance linguist at heart, but to me this damages the reviewer’s credibility. How can he be familiar with the internal debates of the Latin American political/literary elite if he doesn’t even have a first-year high school student’s knowledge of the language?

Eva Luna, former Spanish/English court interpreter

[Avalonian]

Originally posted by december
The fact remains this book is a main-stream, serious publication.

And so, december believes everything it says, of course.

Note to everyone: The printed word is sacrosanct, even when it departs completely from established reailty. As such, we should implicitly trust everything we read in any book, including those written by Rush Limbaugh, Al Franken, Anne Coulter, and Howard Stern. Do not bother checking facts or comparing what the book presents against what has been proven elsewhere. Ideologies do not matter. Bias does not matter. Conflicting views of reality do not matter. The printed word is unassailable.

I wish there was a bigger one of these for times like this: :rolleyes:

[Mtgman]

It should be noted that "Best-Seller" status is often fairly easy to achieve depending on the type of book. Popular fiction usually has to sell a fair number of books, but since the demand for non-fiction is usually quite a bit lower the "best-seller" bar is lower as well. IIRC around 5000 copies is what it takes to get best-seller in paperback nonfiction in Canada. That's roughly .01567% (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ca.html#People) of their population.

Best-Seller != mainstream

Although best-sellers CAN be mainstream, it does not follow that best sellers ARE mainstream.

Enjoy,
Steven

[rjung]

I've got a number of "main-stream, serious publications" that I doubt december has ever read, much less believed:

Stupid White Men ...and Other Sorry Excuses for the State of the Nation!, Michael Moore
Supreme Injustice: How the High Court Hijacked Election 2000, by Alan M. Dershowitz
Shrub: The Short but Happy Political Life of George W. Bush, by Molly Ivins
The Hunting of the President: The Ten-Year Campaign to Destroy Bill and Hillary Clinton, by Joe Conason and Gene Lyons
Steal This Book and Get Life Without Parole, by Bob Harris
Blinded by the Right: The Conscience of an Ex-Conservative, by David Brock
Big Lies: The Right-Wing Propaganda Machine and How It Distorts the Truth, by Joe Conason

Can't wait for december's book reviews... :rolleyes:

[elucidator]

Molly Ivins is a minor goddess of Truth and Justice. People should send her money and encourage thier children to add her to thier bedtime prayers, right after the grandparents.

Well, OK, sorry for the hijack.

[Zoe]

But it was a fine reason for a hijack!

[milroyj]

Originally posted by Collounsbury
Well, dumbfucks, there’s a GD thread on Iraq Reconstruction which touches on many of the same issues, if you think you can argue with me, come right on over and I shall to illustrate your idiocy w/o this small compensation to myself for my time and effort, in fully expressing my contempt for you.

1. Except of course, as you yourself admitted in this thread, http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=191183, you're leaving on another one of your little trips. That seems to be a favourite (see, I can do spelling affectations, too!) tactic of yours--calling for a debate and then begging off for your oh so important responsibilities. In the thread linked above, your OP was at 8:48 am, and then a mere hour later, at 9:51 am, you say you won't be back for several days. So why make the OP in the first place? Couldn't it have waited until your return? I can think of only two reasons for such: a)you like to hear yourself talk, i.e., pontification, see above or b)you are posting just to, ahem, garner responses.

2. Nobody gives a flying fuck about your time and effort, other than your sycophants. (Hi Minty, fuck you too, although I had the mistaken impression you were above silly name-calling).

3. Fuck you, Collounsbury.

[minty green]

So much for engaging the issues on their merits, eh?

Watch out, Col. I think milroyj has a crush on you.

[milroyj]

Originally posted by minty green
So much for engaging the issues on their merits, eh?

Yes, mocking user names, calling people whinging worms, lying sacks of shit, etc., is most definitely "engaging the issues on their merits".

Watch out, Col. I think milroyj has a crush on you.

He wishes.

[minty green]

Originally posted by milroyj
Yes, mocking user names, calling people whinging worms, lying sacks of shit, etc., is most definitely "engaging the issues on their merits". I never claimed it was. It is, however, perfectly possible (at least in the Pit) to combine a personal assault with timely, useful information and discussion of the issues. You have, for some reason, chosen to ignore the vast substance of Collounsbury's hugely informative posts in favor of content-free Col-bashing.

Engage the issues, milroy. Or just continue to come off like a jealous schoolgirl. Your choice.

[milroyj]

Originally posted by minty green
You have, for some reason, chosen to ignore the vast substance of Collounsbury's hugely informative posts in favor of content-free Col-bashing.

The irony amazes me. This whole thread quickly became a content-free December-bashing from the get go. Look, he posited a perfectly reasonable question, IMO. "Is the situation in Iraq as bad as the press initially made it out to be?" The second reply, from Desmostylus, started the December-bashing, and the thread declined from there.

My whole point was that even if you think December's posting style sucks eggs, or that he's factually wrong, or whatever, people should argue his points, not just mindlessly bash him.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally posted by milroyj
My whole point was that even if you think December's posting style sucks eggs, or that he's factually wrong, or whatever, people should argue his points, not just mindlessly bash him. Normally that would be true but this is december. I beileve the majority of the december bashers did try debating with him at first then tired of his schtick.

[minty green]

Nice theory, milroy, but Collounsbury's december-bashing has been accompanied by one hell of a lot of first-rate information. So whatever your reason is for jumping on Col's case, that certainly ain't it.

[milroyj]

Originally posted by minty green
Nice theory, milroy, but Collounsbury's december-bashing has been accompanied by one hell of a lot of first-rate information. So whatever your reason is for jumping on Col's case, that certainly ain't it.

First rate information? How do you know that?

[minty green]

It all began at the age of four, when I learned the alphabet. Literacy is a beautiful thing.

I would suggest that if you are claiming Collounsbury is a lying sack of shit, you might want to provide some solid evidence to that effect. Because personally, I'm pretty convinced that all those news stories he cited are damned good evidence that the nation of Iraq is, by and large, in pretty terrible condition.

As for his recounting of personal conversations with people who have personal knowledge of these matters, I have no reason to believe that they are fabricated or otherwise unreliable. Again, provide some fucking evidence if you're going to cast such aspersions. Otherwise, you're back to the jealous schoolgirl paradigm.

[milroyj]

Does he actually lick your ass whilst you post?

[Squink]

Goddamit milroyj, if you're going to get all fawny and sycophanty over december, at least learn to spell his name correctly. It's december, not December.

[leander]

Originally posted by Jeff Olsen
Normally that would be true but this is december. I beileve the majority of the december bashers did try debating with him at first then tired of his schtick. Bingo!

[istara]

Originally posted by december
I am debating Beers right now on another thread. When I'm debating, I'm usually a partisan. I make no secret of that. I find sources and arguments to substantiate my POV. Newspaper columns and editorials do the same.
So that would really suggest that if your POV is wrong, you are NEVER going to accept it, right?

You are NEVER going to learn anything, because anything that doesn't support your POV you will just dismiss.

december - once and for all, why don't you come to this region and see for yourself? I will even shout you a fucking airticket (economy if that is OK because I am not that loaded) and hotel. You can email me your acceptance via my profile.

Then - once you've been here a week, met a few muslims and Arabs, and the "white" people that actually count themselves friends of these muslims and Arabs, and even some jewish people that live here quite happily and regard muslims and Arabs as their friends and colleagues, then if you really want to, you can go back to spewing your bigoted shit.

OR: you might just feel so disgusted with your own attitude over the last few months/years that you just decide never to post again.

[andros]

Originally posted by milroyj
First rate information? How do you know that?

Millroy, even if you think minty's posting style sucks eggs, or that he's factually wrong, or whatever, people should argue his points, not just mindlessly bash him.

Asshole.

[andros]

Damn. Sorry, meant to quote this one:

Does [Collounsbury] actually lick your ass whilst you post?

Still an asshole, though.

[leander]

istara, I will happily throw a few hundred bucks towards the december trip of enlightenment. Seriously.

[istara]

I would most like to help him visit Iraq, but given things are quite bad there at the moment(!) it's still pretty difficult to get civilians in.

[Gary Kumquat]

Hang on. So if you make repeated poorly informed, illogical or stupid statements about a region then you get offers of a free trip there?

In that case can I just say that the people of Hawaii are all fanatical terrorists, whilst at the same time poor innocents dominated by a tyranical regime. They're also prime ringleaders in the United Nations plot to create a new world order.

Two tickets would be nice, as the missus shares my views on this issue, and has just bought a new bikini.

[Una Persson]

Originally posted by Gary Kumquat
Hang on. So if you make repeated poorly informed, illogical or stupid statements about a region then you get offers of a free trip there?
Hey! At least pick some area near the subject at hand. :)

Perhaps you could go to Indonesia. I understand there's a large number of Muslims there whose culture you can soak in. At least it's close to Hawaii.

I wanted to go to Istanbul myself, but likely won't be able to for years to come due to the politics at hand. However, I profoundly doubt anyone on an internet message board is going to follow up on any offer of free air tickets.

I never posted about it on this Board, but I was (indirectly) asked by the US Gov to go to Iraq myself to help out on certain power restoration issues. I declined due to health, lack of applicable knowledge that would make a difference, poor compensation (20% uplift? Ummm...let me think...no. I need that much to go to Houston, let alone Iraq.), and simply not wanting to go. Several of my colleagues are currently in Iraq, at the ground level, restoring or trying to restore power infrastructure. I could speak on what they do, and their success and lack thereof, but watching threads like this makes me supremely reluctant to do so.

You know, I heard about these sorts of threads, but never wanted to read one. Now that I have, I don't ever want to read one again. Threads like these are not what the SDMB is supposed to be about, and Pit or no Pit, it doesn't really seem like it should be allowed to stand. IMHO, YMMV, FWDIK, and all those other silly things, I guess.

[december]

Originally posted by istara
december - once and for all, why don't you come to this region and see for yourself? I will even shout you a fucking airticket (economy if that is OK because I am not that loaded) and hotel. You can email me your acceptance via my profile.I'd love to visit Dubai. I have been to Israel a couple of times. I met Arabs who were friendly and also encountered Arabs who seethed with hatred. Next time I go to the Middle East I may just accept your invitation to visit Dubai. Then - once you've been here a week, met a few muslims and Arabs, and the "white" people that actually count themselves friends of these muslims and Arabs, and even some jewish people that live here quite happily and regard muslims and Arabs as their friends and colleagues, then if you really want to, you can go back to spewing your bigoted shit.I'm sorry you think I'm bigoted. I'm not. The religion or race of people doesn't interest me. I oppose people who commit acts of terrorism and mass murder, especially when my relatives and friends are their targets.

But, hatred of Israel and of Jews isn't caused by people being Arabs or being Muslims. The hatred is promoted by institutions within some of the Arab countries. Mistreatment of gays and women isn't intrinsic to Islam or to being an Arab. These are unfortunately in the culture of some of the ME. I believe the culture can change.

BTW there are Arabs who believe the Palestinian leadership is entirely in the wrong. E.g., from a recent column by Joseph Farah (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33064):I also don't believe there will ever be peace between Israel and the so-called "Palestinians" because of any negotiations.

Time after time, Yasser Arafat, Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorists have demonstrated an inclination to increase violence whenever the peace stakes get too high. Neither Arafat nor Hamas want an independent Palestinian state living in peace and harmony with a Jewish state. They want only the elimination of a Jewish state. Period. End of story.

There is such a thing in life as an irreconcilable difference. That is what stands in the way of peace talks between these two parties. Israel is all-too willing to give up territory in exchange for peace. Arafat and Hamas are not willing to accept such terms – and never will be. I don't see the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians in racial or religious terms. Israel wants to exist as a Jewish homeland, and I want them to exist.

Unfortunately some of the Palestinians and other Arabs do see this conflict in religious terms. Antisemitic material is presented in some Arab countries. Anti-semitic attacks by Arabs are on the rise in many parts of the world. The attackers don't distinguish between fighting Israel and fighting Jews. I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims. I don't bomb mosques or attack Islamic religious leaders. I just want to be left alone.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Collounsbury
However, he's not a worthless whinging lying ideological sack of shit willing to run down and piss on people doing real work and putting their fucking lives on the line.

Welcome to the board Colonel Nathan R. Jessep.

[Gary Kumquat]

Originally posted by Anthracite
Hey! At least pick some area near the subject at hand. :)
Ah come on, the connection is obvious...erm...lemme see...got one! Iraq has sand, Hawaii has sand. Just how much more proof do I have to provide before you'll see this threat for what it is?

Back me up on this one and I'll push for 4 tickets and get yourself and Fierra on the "inspection team". Waddya say?

[Una Persson]

Originally posted by Gary Kumquat
Back me up on this one and I'll push for 4 tickets and get yourself and Fierra on the "inspection team". Waddya say?
Maybe. I almost took her to Hawaii a few weeks ago, but had work conflicts. It will happen in the future, though. Both of us would like to see the ruins of the Eastern Roman empire, which is why I thought Istanbul. Indonesia is the first Muslim country near Hawaii which came to mind outside of Bali, which doesn't seem like a happy place to be right now (co-worker just returned from there, woke up to "death to america!" written on his hotel room door). Of course, I was personally confronted with "Yankee go home!" in Italy, so who knows where one can go without having this happen?

I've been reading about some interesting ancient engineering works in Iraq that would be fascinating to see (including an incredibly old sewer tunnel), as well as artifacts in their museum. Too bad I won't be going there in this lifetime. I think for the near term all my holidays will be in the UK. Cool Britannia!

[istara]

OK then it's a date - DubFest next time december is in the region. If you want to just visit the UAE, please let me know.

[minty green]

Originally posted by Anthracite
Several of my colleagues are currently in Iraq, at the ground level, restoring or trying to restore power infrastructure. I could speak on what they do, and their success and lack thereof, but watching threads like this makes me supremely reluctant to do so.I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has such direct contacts with the actual situation on the ground. If not in this thread, may I suggest posting your info in Collounsbury's current GD thread, titled someting like "Reconstruction of Iraq"?

[Lute Skywatcher]

For those who haven't been paying attention:

december is to right-wing politics what Jack Chick (http://www.chick.com/) is to religion.

[Gary Kumquat]

Originally posted by Anthracite
Indonesia is the first Muslim country near Hawaii which came to mind outside of Bali, which doesn't seem like a happy place to be right now (co-worker just returned from there, woke up to "death to america!" written on his hotel room door). Of course, I was personally confronted with "Yankee go home!" in Italy, so who knows where one can go without having this happen?
Indonesia is safe enough - been there twice this year and planning to go back in a couple of weeks. While such experiences as your co-workers do happen they are pretty rare, fortunately. I do sympathise on your Italy story - Milan has certainly seen a rise in anti US/UK sentiment. On a similar note in France a few weeks back I ended up having to laugh off drunken threats from an idiot who felt that swinging at me was a good solution to the Iraq situation, rather than a fairly swift way to get his head kicked in.

I've been reading about some interesting ancient engineering works in Iraq that would be fascinating to see (including an incredibly old sewer tunnel), as well as artifacts in their museum. Too bad I won't be going there in this lifetime. I think for the near term all my holidays will be in the UK.
I wouldn't write off Iraq yet. 15 years after he'd taken part in invading Germany my grandfather was holidaying there, which is a nice example of how radically things can change in a fairly short time. I must also point out that Iraq's loss is the UK's gain.

[istara]

Tonight I met an Iraqi guy who has just flown to Dubai from Baghdad.

He said it's shit there. He also said - I only have his word for it though - that the security situation for troops is far worse than is revealed to the media, he says for every one US soldier we hear about killed at least another five have been killed.

This may well be an exaggeration, I don't know how the US army would be able to get away with it (the family has to be told after all, how do you hide five extra sets of grieving relatives?) Perhaps there have been more injuries or "near misses" than have reached the TV and newspapers? I thought it was a rather odd and unusual thing for him to come out with, it was prompted by a CNN report on the latest US casualty that we were watching at the time.

This was quite a "westernised" and very educated Iraqi, btw. And certainly not a Saddam supporter - the very opposite, in fact.

[Boo Boo Foo]

Well istara, sadly, that kind of bears out my prediction in the thread created by Sam Stone prior to the war in which we were invited to make predictions on about 10 different structured categories. My greatest worry at the time was, and remains, what was going to become of the poor troops AFTER the war - insofar as it was probably going to resemble Vietnam after a while - namely, language barrier problems and an inability for the troops to be able to distinguish non-combatants from geurilla's dressed as innocent civilians etc.

Worst of all, there are various folks in the region, it seems to me, who have some pressing agendas in seeing the US effort actually fail. As Collounsbury has pointed out countless times, there are a lot of vested interests and conflicts of interests in the region - and the mere presence of 140,000 US troops walking the streets of Iraq has provided 140,000 bullseye targets for the sabotage folks to aim at.

The mortality rate... infant birth mortality is just shocking at the moment. Poor hospital equipment... hardyly anything working and huge amounts looted and damaged by vandals. Illiteracy? Rampant. Social infrastructures? Shattered.

It all adds up to an incredibly fertile recipe for breeding amazingly bitter resentment, and those poor bastards who are the US troops on the ground are the targets.

I suspect things will get worse yet before they get better.

Quite simply, I predict it would take 1 million plus troops to bring stability to the place at the moment. Anything less than that simply allows the borders to be incredibly porous. Of course, the perverse logic to such an action is that you would ALSO radically increase the exposure of your troops to geurilla attacks.

[pantom]

All of which just goes to show we have absolutely no business being there.
40 years ago, when I was a child, we were involved in a guerrilla war in a foreign country that turned out to be unwinnable.
Hopefully, it won't be a case of plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
Hopefully.

[milroyj]

Originally posted by andros
Millroy, even if you think minty's posting style sucks eggs, or that he's factually wrong, or whatever, people should argue his points, not just mindlessly bash him.

I wasn't bashing minty. He stated that Col gave "first rate information", and I questioned how he knew that the info was indeed first rate? After all, neither minty, no Col, can or will provide his credentials. So how do we know that Col is not indeed:

a 22 year old girl from Idaho who is majoring in Mid-East studies at Boise State.

Yeah, sometimes he provides cites that agree with his POV, but then he dismisses any other cites as lies, distortions, drooling idiocy, what have you, without showing how the other cites are incorrect, other than that they don't agree with The Great and Powerful Collounsbury. Ignore the man behind the curtain! Collounsbury has spoken! Cue flames, and big green head.

[minty green]

Originally posted by milroyj
After all, neither minty, no Col, can or will provide his credentials. Like you've ever asked.

[milroyj]

Not sure what your point is there, minty. I, and others, have asked, and he simply won't do it. He claims that his posts should be good enough.

[Weirddave]

Originally posted by minty green
Like you've ever asked.

I asked. It's too late tonight to find the link, but I can tomorrow if anyone is interested.

[Weirddave]

December made what IMHO is a very resoned and reasonable post. Why hasn't anyone commented on it? You may say "Oh, it's december, he'll weasel or change his position" but in that's a huge cop out. I think that many of you dismiss "december as just being december" because it's easier for you that way. Sure a lot, if not most, of his posts are idologicaly driven glurge, and he does have a tendency to wiggle out of his position, base his arguements on what is nothing more than someone else's opinion and slightly change what he's saying to "prove" that his opponents are wrong, but I would estimate that about 20-25% of what he posts actually has a great deal of merit to it. By refusing to consider the merits of his points on a case by case basis, y'all are doing 2 things: #1 You're not fighting ignorance, you're embracing it. Beliefs and truth are forged in the fire of controversy and debate, dismissing ANY thought out of hand simply because of it's source is doing a HUGE disservice to this process. #2 You're being pussies. That's right, you're wimping out. I've often wondered, seriously, how all of you december bashers would react if december posted an OP; "The sky is blue". I imagine many of you would tie yourselves in knots trying to define the sky as green, simply because "If december says it, it's not true". You say "We get tired of the same old thing", but THAT'S WHAT FIGHTING IGNORANCE IS ALL ABOUT, the same old thing, day after day. By dismissing december because you're too lazy to refute any falsehoods he posts point by point, you're simply demonstrating that it is you who is not willing to expend the effort to defend your positions. December hangs in there, thread after thread, defending his opinion, and he is just one person. There are at least a dozen of you hard core december haters out there, why can't y'all keep up with substance and not simply give up and resort to kindegarden insults and pre-teen inuendo? You're never going to change december's mind, but y'all have given up on even debating his points. Like I said, occasionally, he is right and y'all are wrong. Refusing learn from that means that y'all have voluntarily refused to consider any opinion that dosen't mirror your own AND LEARN FROM IT. IMHO, that makes YOU the morons here.

In case anyone is interested, here is december's post that prompted this rant:


Originally posted by december
Originally posted by istara
december - once and for all, why don't you come to this region and see for yourself? I will even shout you a fucking airticket (economy if that is OK because I am not that loaded) and hotel. You can email me your acceptance via my profile.

I'd love to visit Dubai. I have been to Israel a couple of times. I met Arabs who were friendly and also encountered Arabs who seethed with hatred. Next time I go to the Middle East I may just accept your invitation to visit Dubai.
Then - once you've been here a week, met a few muslims and Arabs, and the "white" people that actually count themselves friends of these muslims and Arabs, and even some jewish people that live here quite happily and regard muslims and Arabs as their friends and colleagues, then if you really want to, you can go back to spewing your bigoted shit.

I'm sorry you think I'm bigoted. I'm not. The religion or race of people doesn't interest me. I oppose people who commit acts of terrorism and mass murder, especially when my relatives and friends are their targets.

But, hatred of Israel and of Jews isn't caused by people being Arabs or being Muslims. The hatred is promoted by institutions within some of the Arab countries. Mistreatment of gays and women isn't intrinsic to Islam or to being an Arab. These are unfortunately in the culture of some of the ME. I believe the culture can change.

BTW there are Arabs who believe the Palestinian leadership is entirely in the wrong. E.g., from a recent column by Joseph Farah (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33064):
I also don't believe there will ever be peace between Israel and the so-called "Palestinians" because of any negotiations.

Time after time, Yasser Arafat, Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorists have demonstrated an inclination to increase violence whenever the peace stakes get too high. Neither Arafat nor Hamas want an independent Palestinian state living in peace and harmony with a Jewish state. They want only the elimination of a Jewish state. Period. End of story.

There is such a thing in life as an irreconcilable difference. That is what stands in the way of peace talks between these two parties. Israel is all-too willing to give up territory in exchange for peace. Arafat and Hamas are not willing to accept such terms – and never will be.

I don't see the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians in racial or religious terms. Israel wants to exist as a Jewish homeland, and I want them to exist.

Unfortunately some of the Palestinians and other Arabs do see this conflict in religious terms. Antisemitic material is presented in some Arab countries. Anti-semitic attacks by Arabs are on the rise in many parts of the world. The attackers don't distinguish between fighting Israel and fighting Jews. I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims. I don't bomb mosques or attack Islamic religious leaders. I just want to be left alone.

Debate that post simply on it's own merits, december bashers, without saying "Oh, december will weasel" or something of the sort. I fucking dare you to do it.

[sailor]

>> Debate that post simply on it's own merits, december bashers, without saying "Oh, december will weasel" or something of the sort. I fucking dare you to do it.

Nope. I am not going to do it. I have wasted way too much time arguing with december and I have *never* seen him be resonable, with me or with others. He does not deserve to be taken seriously. He has brought it upon himself.

And BTW, as he mentions in the OP, this is the second time he starts a thread with the same topic. He wasn't reasonable the first time around and he's not reasonable the second time around. Why should anyone take him seriously?

I am not going to fall in the trap of wasting a lot of time arguing with him for nothing. He's a clown looking to stir a reaction and I can decide what my reaction will be. Most of he time I decide to ignore him but I am entitled to call him a clown and an idiot. He owes me too many serious discussions to demand I take him seriously. He has ruined too many threads and has lost *any* right to be taken seriously.

[Desmostylus]

Originally posted by Weirddave
December made what IMHO is a very resoned and reasonable post. Why hasn't anyone commented on it? You may say "Oh, it's december, he'll weasel or change his position" but in that's a huge cop out. I think that many of you dismiss "december as just being december" because it's easier for you that way. Sure a lot, if not most, of his posts are idologicaly driven glurge, and he does have a tendency to wiggle out of his position, base his arguements on what is nothing more than someone else's opinion and slightly change what he's saying to "prove" that his opponents are wrong, but I would estimate that about 20-25% of what he posts actually has a great deal of merit to it. By refusing to consider the merits of his points on a case by case basis, y'all are doing 2 things: #1 You're not fighting ignorance, you're embracing it. Beliefs and truth are forged in the fire of controversy and debate, dismissing ANY thought out of hand simply because of it's source is doing a HUGE disservice to this process. #2 You're being pussies. That's right, you're wimping out. I've often wondered, seriously, how all of you december bashers would react if december posted an OP; "The sky is blue". I imagine many of you would tie yourselves in knots trying to define the sky as green, simply because "If december says it, it's not true". You say "We get tired of the same old thing", but THAT'S WHAT FIGHTING IGNORANCE IS ALL ABOUT, the same old thing, day after day. By dismissing december because you're too lazy to refute any falsehoods he posts point by point, you're simply demonstrating that it is you who is not willing to expend the effort to defend your positions. December hangs in there, thread after thread, defending his opinion, and he is just one person. There are at least a dozen of you hard core december haters out there, why can't y'all keep up with substance and not simply give up and resort to kindegarden insults and pre-teen inuendo? You're never going to change december's mind, but y'all have given up on even debating his points. Like I said, occasionally, he is right and y'all are wrong. Refusing learn from that means that y'all have voluntarily refused to consider any opinion that dosen't mirror your own AND LEARN FROM IT. IMHO, that makes YOU the morons here. Why the fuck don't you do what you're advocating everyone else should do, Weirddave? Your entire post consists of nothing but moaning about december, and the december bashers. What's this "why hasn't any commented on it" shit? Lots of people have commented. If you mean "why hasn't anyone said anything positive", then why the fuck didn't you just say something positive?

[minty green]

I wasn't referring to Collounsbury, but miroyj was definitely referring to me in that credentials crack.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Hey Desmostylus, until you own up to your own outright proven mischaracterization of other posters, I'd say you better shut up.

[sailor]

Iraq 'too dangerous to rebuild' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2999368.stm)

British and American troops have to get a grip on Baghdad because lawlessness is hampering attempts to rebuild Iraq, the UK's international development secretary has warned. Baroness Amos is so concerned about the dangerous security situation in the Iraqi capital she has postponed a trip there. december, what say ye?

[Typo Negative]

Originally posted by milroyj
Not sure what your point is there, minty. I, and others, have asked, and he simply won't do it. He claims that his posts should be good enough. Can someone explain to me the value of posting 'credentials' on an anonymous message board?

[Cheech and Chong]
He's got an MA, a BA, a PhD, and is a BFM besides.....
[/Cheech and Chong]

If you don't believe them now, are you gonna believe they'd be honest about the 'credentials' they post?

Or did I completely miss the point again?

[Lute Skywatcher]

Dave: a dead clock is right twice a day.

sailor: you may be wasting your time there. I think he's abandoned this thread.

[minty green]

Originally posted by spooje
[Cheech and Chong]
He's got an MA, a BA, a PhD, and is a BFM besides.....
[/Cheech and Chong]BA, MA, and JD, actually. You're quite right that milroy's whining about credentials is pretty pointless, but there you go.

[The Flying Dutchman]

That's pretty old. Doesn't work for the majority of modern dead clocks.

[december]

Originally posted by sailor British and American troops have to get a grip on Baghdad because lawlessness is hampering attempts to rebuild Iraq, the UK's international development secretary has warned. Baroness Amos is so concerned about the dangerous security situation in the Iraqi capital she has postponed a trip there.
december, what say ye? A month ago, columnist Mark Steyn spent two weeks driving around Iraq on his own, with no bodyguards. Sounds like Baroness Amos simply isn't as brave as Steyn.

Seriously, there's no doubt that there's a dangerous security situation in Iraq right now. Americans seem to be attacked on almost a daily basis. This is something our troops will have to deal with. It's a real problem -- one of many.

But, it's separate from the OP. I didn't mean to say that things were perfect in Iraq. I said that some allegations were exaggerated, like the stories about widespread famine and large numbers of people unable to get hospital care.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally posted by grienspace
That's pretty old. Doesn't work for the majority of modern dead clocks. Well, december's profile says he's retired. :)

[Weirddave]

Originally posted by Desmostylus
Why the fuck don't you do what you're advocating everyone else should do, Weirddave? Your entire post consists of nothing but moaning about december, and the december bashers. What's this "why hasn't any commented on it" shit? Lots of people have commented. If you mean "why hasn't anyone said anything positive", then why the fuck didn't you just say something positive?
I did:

Originally posted by Weirddave
December made what IMHO is a very resoned and reasonable post.

AND, contrary to your assertion, nobody has commenented on that post except sailor who only commented to say he wasn't going to comment. I guess he agrees with december on this point as well.

[milroyj]

Originally posted by minty green
I wasn't referring to Collounsbury, but miroyj was definitely referring to me in that credentials crack.

I should have worded that better. What I meant to say was:

"After all, neither minty, nor Col, can or will provide Col's credentials."

There was no crack at you, real or intended. Apologies for any confusion.

[minty green]

I'm also Superman. Did I mention that?

:)

[tomndebb]

A month ago, columnist Mark Steyn spent two weeks driving around Iraq on his own, with no bodyguards. And, as was noted then, he spent all of his time out in the western region where there had not been any fighting (and where there are not many people) until he finally arrived at the outskirts of Baghdad (from the "peaceful" side) , at which point he fled north without ever entering the city of going down to Basra where the troubles are reported. It was as if he spent two weeks hanging out on New York State Route 17, turned around at Yonkers, and announced he had proven that the Bronx was a safe place for a stroll.

[Boo Boo Foo]

Poor old december... a man who suffers from "sillyus manipulatus carborundum".... latin for grating us with silly manipulation...

It's as though december is paid by the State Department to take selective, questionable facts and really 'em give the old spit and polish treatment and then trumpet said heralds as the real truth, the real, REAL TRUTH.

However, the cynic in me argues thus... december is actually paid by the owners of the Straight Dope Messageboard to regularly manipulate the truth so that we, in turn, are tested in our commitment to fighting ignorance.

I have to say... he does a stand up job... no questions about that at all.

[milroyj]

Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo
It's as though december is paid by the State Department to take selective, questionable facts and really 'em give the old spit and polish treatment and then trumpet said heralds as the real truth, the real, REAL TRUTH.

Question for ya, Boo Boo. I see december has been registered since Dec 1999. If he really is a State Dept lackey towing the Bush Administration line, who was paying him before Jan 20, 2001? Maddie Albright? ;)

[december]

Originally posted by tomndebb
And, as was noted then, he spent all of his time out in the western region where there had not been any fighting (and where there are not many people) until he finally arrived at the outskirts of Baghdad (from the "peaceful" side) , at which point he fled north without ever entering the city of going down to Basra where the troubles are reported. [/B]That's only partially correct. Among the areas he visited was Tikrit, Saddam's home base, where much of the trouble was. His tour covered much of the country, including, as you point out, the outskirts of Baghdad.

[rjung]

Originally posted by milroyj
I see december has been registered since Dec 1999. If he really is a State Dept lackey towing the Bush Administration line, who was paying him before Jan 20, 2001? Maddie Albright? ;)
Richard Mellon Scaife, I'd wager -- after all, Ken Starr was done with his witchhunt on Bill and Hillary Clinton, so those funds could just be diverted to december instead.

Sure would explain how the guy gets by without a job, giving him lots of free time to post to the SDMB... :)

[tomndebb]

Among the areas he visited was Tikrit, Saddam's home base, where much of the trouble was. Mixture of fact and falsehood. Tikrit was Hussein's home town and there is still sympathy for him there (as yesterday's captured aide indicates), but Tikrit never saw the looting that Baghdad saw and has not been the site of the general resistance found in Baghdad and Basra. All the incidents around Tikrit (few as they are) have focused exclusively on the U.S. military. Steyn was still lying and you are still defending him with made up answers.

[Squink]

Iraqis see U.S. troops as necessary evil - poll (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L19238056.htm)
According to Iraq's first opinion poll, released on Thursday, around 73 percent of Baghdad residents say U.S. troops have failed to bring security to their troubled city. However, only 17 percent of respondents said U.S.-led forces should quit Iraq forthwith. Of course, God only knows what opinion polls mean under these conditions.

[rjung]

So, how long before december starts tossing out "83% of all Iraqis want the US forces to stay" as a reference? :rolleyes:

[elucidator]

They have to stay, and thats the worst of it. If we were to leave, the situation would rapidly turn into election by Darwinism and God only knows what the result would be, but the process would be bloody, of that we can be assured.

Count Iraqula has fastened himself upon our collective jugular. Not only can we not bring home our troops now, we will almost certainly have to reinforce the ones already there, and reinforce them massively. The Bushistas are already busily spinning this as an extension of hositilities, under the rather silly excuse that we are under assault by Saddam "loyalists" (who are, presumably, quite exhausted after thier extended bout of dancing in the streets and flinging flowers at us.)

How long until our losses from "peacekeeping" exceed our losses from the actual "liberation"?

[elf6c]

Originally posted by december
december, what say ye? A month ago, columnist Mark Steyn spent two weeks driving around Iraq on his own, with no bodyguards. Sounds like Baroness Amos simply isn't as brave as Steyn.

Seriously, there's no doubt that there's a dangerous security situation in Iraq right now. Americans seem to be attacked on almost a daily basis. This is something our troops will have to deal with. It's a real problem -- one of many.

But, it's separate from the OP. I didn't mean to say that things were perfect in Iraq. I said that some allegations were exaggerated, like the stories about widespread famine and large numbers of people unable to get hospital care. [/QUOTE]

Yeah things are going just great:

BAGHDAD, June 19 -- Facing daily assaults from a well-armed resistance, U.S. troops in volatile central Iraq say they are growing frustrated and disillusioned with their role as postwar peacekeepers.

In conversations in a half-dozen towns across central Iraq, soldiers complained that they have been insufficiently equipped for peacekeeping and too thinly deployed in areas where they are under attack from fighters evidently loyal to deposed president Saddam Hussein. Others questioned whether the armed opposition to the U.S. presence in Iraq may be deeper and more organized than military commanders have acknowledged.

"What are we getting into here?" asked a sergeant with the U.S. Army's 4th Infantry Division who is stationed near Baqubah, a city 30 miles northeast of Baghdad. "The war is supposed to be over, but every day we hear of another soldier getting killed. Is it worth it? Saddam isn't in power anymore. The locals want us to leave. Why are we still here?"



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14492-2003Jun19.html?nav=hptop_tb

And for the december apologists-- enough. Its getting fricken creepy. december is a big boy and can speak for himself. The "pat december on the head, he made a nice post" request is absurd and demeaning to december. Are you claiming he is such a bad poster that he need to be reinforced like a puppy when he does something good? Are you going to follow him around now and personally rate all of his posts and demand praise for him for each post which passes your personal muster?

december does post on other issues you know? Just the other day he had a nice OP mocking a certain self-important commentator. Do you want to run over to that thread and hold up an applause sign too? :rolleyes:

[elf6c]

A few posters had asked about losses and the ration of war to post war.

The death of a U.S. soldier yesterday near Baghdad brought to nine the number of troops killed in Iraq this month in a string of sporadic rocket and sniper attacks. Fifty-four Americans have died in accidents or military action since President Bush declared the war ended on May 1, equal to more than one-third of the 139 wartime deaths.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14499-2003Jun19.html?nav=hptop_tb



:(

[december]

elf6c, it's normal for soldiers to gripe. Frankly, I don't blame them; it's a tough life. The fact that some anonymous Seargant is grousing isn't newsworthy. Your cite merely shows the media bias du jour.

I am very upset at the continuing attacks against our soldiers, as is the Seargant. OTOH he's wrong about Iraqis wanting us to leave.

[Gyrate]

To summarize:

Some Iraqis are welcoming the troops with praise and thanks.
Some Iraqis are still shooting at the US and British troops.

Some Iraqis are grateful that Saddam Hussein has been removed from power.
Some Iraqis aren't.

Some Iraqis want us to leave now.
Some Iraqis would prefer that we weren't there, but recognize that a continued military presence is necessary for the time being.
Some Iraqis can't wait to set up their own McDonalds franchises.

Most Iraqis wish things hadn't come to this.

[elf6c]

Originally posted by december
elf6c, it's normal for soldiers to gripe. Frankly, I don't blame them; it's a tough life. The fact that some anonymous Seargant is grousing isn't newsworthy. Your cite merely shows the media bias du jour.

I am very upset at the continuing attacks against our soldiers, as is the Seargant. OTOH he's wrong about Iraqis wanting us to leave.

In that I fully agree with you december- griping is part of enlisted life. Like cursing, it is a vital part of not going crazy (at least during my 4 years of service- maybe its different now). However, seeing that person is on the ground there, and you are not, I place alot more weight in their analysis of the situation then yours. Failure to listen to the troops on the ground is a classic political failure and the way to lose a war- one mistake Bush claimed he would not make.

BTW, the Congress and the Bush Administration seems a bit worried as well.

Yet senior aides and members of Congress are talking warily of the dangers ahead, as well as the potential political and diplomatic fallout, amid evidence that Iraqi renegades are determined to fight. Indeed, the commanding general of the U.S. Army's 4th Infantry Division charged this week that anti-American forces are paying Iraqis to kill troops. The perils are significant. It has become clear that U.S. troops will form the majority of the international force in Iraq for many months. Some voices on Capitol Hill, describing the casualties and the extent of the armed Iraqi opposition, have begun to argue that the Bush administration must send more troops or recruit others.

. . .

"There are significant hostile forces," Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) told a National Press Club audience yesterday. "There are forces we can't see. There are competitions between power groups vying for power. There's retribution, there's retaliation. And I don't think we do have enough manpower in there."



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14499-2003Jun19.html?nav=hptop_tb

Unfortunately now that we are there we have to stay until the job is finished, so we do not have a repeat of the Afganistan situation.

And december- ease off the "media bias" bullshit-- m'kay. It makes you looks silly and hypocritical. The quote was hard facts and a direct fucking quote from someone who knows what they are talking about on the ground there- hard to "bias" that.

Unlike you, I only Cite to large well respected news organizations. No Blogs, Op-Eds, or Rush Limbaugh sites. Clean up your own Cites before crying "media bias". I know its uncomfortable to have your cherished beliefs refuted with facts and quotes from well respected sources, but do try to not lapse into trite cliches.

[Merijeek]

Originally posted by Collounsbury
Ah that's your opinion, and insofar as I don't see you have experience or exposure to humanitarian orgs, I'll just say that you are worth less than the crud in my amigos toes who do the work. Worthless piece of posturing shit.

Te rest is just your typical posturing. I note you've not supported a single assertion to date with anything approaching facts.

Oh come on, it's not december's fault that all those humanitarian organizations are made up of liberal, hippie commies.

Geez.

:D

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally posted by elf6c
Unlike you, I only Cite to large well respected news organizations. No Blogs, Op-Eds, or Rush Limbaugh sites. Clean up your own Cites before crying "media bias". I know its uncomfortable to have your cherished beliefs refuted with facts and quotes from well respected sources, but do try to not lapse into trite cliches. Oh, but december does cite large, well esablished news organizations such as the Washington Post. However, when he does he tends to ignore the parts that don't agree with him.