Sock Puppet people/multiple personalities

[Anti Pro]

I hate taking up more space to ask more questions, but this has really made me curious.

In reading a number of threads, it started in BBQ pit, but I've seen it elsewhere too. 'Sock Puppet' people who materialize to back up or cheer on someone who is being either flamed or criticized.

Then the multiple personality, I don't understand why someone would do this. I don't mean changing their user names, I get that. It doesn't make any difference to Chicago Reader whether someone calls themselves 'Joe' 'Steve' and 'Gertrude' but what would be the reason for it?? One whole thread was about, you are too, I am not, you are too! I picture kids in a sandbox, but I'm not sure what would motivate someone to do this, unless it is just the thrill to deceive. Boy, this is sounding naive. Is this something that is discussed, and discouraged, or just an object of curiousity and left alone?

:confused:
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Judy



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"Subconsciously there are many people you hate." "Consciously, sir, consciously." Yossarian corrected in an effort to help. "I hate them consciously."

[MrKnowItAll]

Anti, no offense, but let's wait until we weed out these idiots to discuss this. Talking about them, even behind their backs, encourages them.

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Now with 1000 posts of pure wisdom!
(or something)

[Nu Vo Da Da]

Amen MrKnowItAll, you are the smartest and coolest poster on this board. I think we all should honor and respect everything you say! You're always right, and you know it all!

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Now with 1000 posts of pure wisdom!
(or something)

[MrKnowItAll]

Um. I'm not sure, but I think Nu Vo is pulling my leg. Is there a problem?

[Nu Vo Da Da]

Well...the topic was about people using sock puppets to unconditionally support things they say....

[NicePete]

Nu Vo and MrKnowItAll are exactly right. I couldn't have said it better myself. I really admire their eloquence and perceptiveness. You guys are the smartest posters on this board.

Your pal,

Kukla (or is it Ollie?)

[manhattan]

There's no definite answer to this, so it doesn't belong here. But it's not really a debate, especially given the responses (wise guys! ;) ). And you are all being too nice for the pit. I really hate to send yet another "What is a troll?" thread to TubaDiva, but About This Message Board seems to be the least worst place for this thread.

So off it goes.


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[Eutychus]

Manhattan, you're completely correct and I couldn't have done a better job myself. What a wonderful person you must be in real life. ;)

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Saint Eutychus H.M.S.H.
" 'He is a prince' , the minstrels sing.
Among men, yes. Among fools he is a king."
Disney Shorts (http://www.disneyshorts.org)
The Eutychus Papers (http://members.aol.com/eutychus55)

[TubaDiva]

Damn, it's getting deep in here!

I dunno if I can properly answer your question, although all that have come before me have done a fine job of illustrating the situation.

Manny of the extra screen names we find were created out of accidental circumstances. Someone signed in, mistyped their email address, couldn't get their password, they just started over. Result: two screen names on the board. (One never used.)

Other times people get tired of a name. Maybe it was a joke, or some passing fancy at the time; they liked it then, they hate it now. They don't bother to tell us, they just abandon the old name and start a new one.

Some folks just feel like they need different names to more fully express themselves. I recently found where someone had signed up for 4 or 5 different screen names. They all had the same ICQ #, but he did ask, "How did you catch me?" :)

Others have no allies, so they must manufacture them. Call it the "Imaginary Friend" syndrome.

And of course, sometimes it's just a joke.

We don't approve of any of these things, but people being people, it's part of what we have to deal with here.

If you're ever in doubt about a screen name, yours or anyone else's, just ask us. We'll try to set you straight.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator
The Straight Dope

Aw, TUBA...

You know that you & the Chicago Reader are proud of your near-5000 MB membership in your inaugural year. I'll bet $10 that's what your potential advertisers (are there any actual advertisers besides the Reader itself?) hear about instead of the three hundred something figure on Chrome Toaster's registry.

Would a $10 Godiva on-line gift certificate be an acceptable bet? :)

- Sue

[Ringo]

Well, as long as I'm here,...I just counted...324.

[Lynn Bodoni]

I can't remember where I got this, but here it is:

"A "sock-puppet" is a term coined, I think, over on news.admin.net-abuse.email (or maybe it was .misc back when that group was around). It refers to one person adopting multiple personalities in an attempt to fool people into thinking he has support for his position in a debate."

In other words, it's the refuge of someone who has neither logic nor friends to help his/her arguement.

Lynn

That's way past "too careful", gone through "paranoia", around the bend, beyond the people with aluminum foil and colanders on their heads, to a point just about even with "the X-files".

[TubaDiva]

You'll have to get your chocolate from some other suck--from someone else, my dear.

The Reader's advertising department controls the advertising on the site. Such as it is. The latest information I have is that the advertising department is gearing up for more action, but they are moving at their own pace. That's okay; they've already decided online is not their main chance anyway and they prefer to stick to what they know. But at some point, you'll see more than just Reader ads.

Ads pay only a pittance anyway; you can't even pay your expenses, much less make a profit, on ad sales in cyberspace today. (If ever you could.)

While Chrome Toaster's thread is fun to read, it is in no way accurate. "Anecdotal" might be a better way to put it.

The list of registered members is just that, a list of registered members. Some people make thousands of posts, some make a few, some make none. We don't swear that everybody that signs in spends their days reading and replying to every post on the board.

And actually there's more to this than simply registered member numbers. Websites are able to deduce what sort of real attention they're getting, that's what "click-throughs" and "page views" are all about. FWIW, in February we had approximately 319,000 page views for the Straight Dope portion of the Chicago Reader site. THAT's the sort of number the Reader will be throwing around, and for good reason.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator
The Straight Dope

[Doug Bowe]

Good God! 319,000?
Is that how many people read what's scribbled down here?

[jab1]

Originally posted by TubaDiva:
FWIW, in February we had approximately 319,000 page views for the Straight Dope portion of the Chicago Reader site.

No, Doug Bowe, not really:

Lessee, 319,000 divided by 29 days = 11,000 per day.

If there really are only about 325 active users, that's only about 34 page views per user per day. Note that that is page VIEWS, not POSTS. That figure would therefore include lurkers. Just today, I've read three (or four) threads without posting on them. Each occaision would be a page view. I'm sure a lot of people read threads they never post on. (Of course, some people seem to post BEFORE reading, but that's another problem!)

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When all else fails, ask Cecil.

[C K Dexter Haven]

When you post under one name, and talk to yourself under a different name, and then reply to yourself under the first name...

Lessee, if you did that in casual conversation, it'd be called paranoia sociopathic or some sort of -mania. When you do it on the web, it's called "sock puppet." Hmmm. I think I prefer "looney" as the characterization.

[Anti Pro]

CKDextHavn, you've touched on what I meant in my post. The Sock Puppeteer isn't fooling anyone, so it must be some kind of self delusion, though, even that doesn't make a great deal of sense. YOU know the person you've just made up to agree with you, is YOU. If you're accused of just that, you have to deny, deny, deny. What should you do with your 'sock puppet' then? Do you give them a whole personality so ya'll can be 'friends'?


The second personality people, if you were banned and you just wanted to come back because you miss everyone, couldn't you just address that to either the moderators through a personal e mail, or the administrators of Straight Dope? Just say you're sorry for being a jerk, and you'd probably have to say it to whomever you got into it with on the board too, I guess. THAT just seems easier than what I've seen happen. So much effort seems to go into both of these situations, when it needn't be that way.

Which of course, means there is no real solution to this, other than knowing it exists, and steering clear of it.

Thanks for the responses,
Judy

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"Subconsciously there are many people you hate." "Consciously, sir, consciously." Yossarian corrected in an effort to help. "I hate them consciously."

[The Ryan]

Originally posted by TubaDiva:

Manny of the extra screen names we find were created out of accidental circumstances.

Was that a typo? Or another of your manny jokes?

[TubaDiva]

It's an old joke from the AOL days. Sorry.

And Judy, you make a good point. We're not about stomping on people, we're about encouraging good behavior. We've had folks that messed up (some in pretty spectacular fashion), they 'fessed up, promised to do better. Sometimes they did . . . but most always they got a second chance.

We really are your friends here.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator
The Straight Dope

[Anti Pro]

Thanks for answering again, Tuba, and I know that you all work hard, and you have to put up with a lot more than we'll ever know.

I wonder why the first step to someone wanting to come back would be to invent a new 'person' rather than taking the most straightforward way of owning up and not having to go through being forever accused of being who they are and them having to deny it! It seems so exhausting.

I know I should check the FAQ again, but I don't remember anything about reinstating someone once they've stepped on one too many toes, and is there a procedure that could apply to anyone written up ahead of time so that the 'newbies' would be encouraged to read it before their first official post. Maybe that would stop some of the 'multiple personality' people. Just a thought.
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Judy

[Bricker]

My reaction, FWIW -- "sock puppet" is a term of art to be distinguished from "troll", even though trolls may have multiple identities. The troll signs up, posts inflammatory commentary until he's banned, signs up again wth a different user name, and continues the game, often denying in his new identity any connection with the reviled old identity.

The sui generis sock puppeteer, on the other hand, creates multiple simultaneous identities (the puppets) to bolster his main personality's assertions. The implication being, of course, that because others agree with him, he must be right; because others defend him, your attack is unwarranted.

Or so it seems to me, anyway!

- Rick

[Anti Pro]

Two questions, Rick, have you ever participated in any other message board to know if this is a common problem, and are there certain characteristics these people seem to share??

It still seems so odd to me, that someone would put such effort into something they have to keep barriers up to hide themselves behind anyway, what is the point of doing it? I think I understand the younger, immature person using attention getting devices to satisfy some craving for being center stage, but Cyberian isn't a teenager. Though, he doesn't exactly *fit* the troll image, he would fit in the multiple personality to hide, or be able to post again without taking responsibility for his former posting habits.

I wonder if this comes in cycles too. Like the full moon phenomenon, think so?? :)
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Judy

[TubaDiva]

Y'all ask some interesting questions on this issue.

Please consider this post the biggest WAG you ever saw. And just my personal opinions, too. This is not to be taken as anything more than just my musings on the subject.

Now, I'm not a head doctor or anything like it, but I do think in some cases mental illness is part of the situation. I'm not talking so much about "imaginary friends" (although we see some of that too), but referring to the degree of obsession some folks display where this place is concerned.

I'm differentiating from Imaginary Friends created to bolster a argument (which is just pathetic) and people who truly buckle on the sword and come to the Straight Dope to fight with all comers.

Looking back through our time online, both here and on AOL, those that have given us the most grief over the longest period of time have been disabled -- physically and/or emotionally, mentally. Maybe that's not wholly coincidental.

Back in the AOL days, one of our more persistent trolls would send around pictures of himself in his wheelchair; how could we be so mean as to pick on a cripple? Another one would say the most horrific things, yet cried that we were abusing him because he was disabled.

We've had other problem children who presented with obvious emotional difficulties, though not quite to the incredible heights of the two referenced above. (Thanks be to every god everywhere.)

I don't discount that it might just be that they're to home, have a computer and lots of time, more so than the average Teemster.

For those that are forced into a life of the mind by the world's limitations on them, this little hothouse seems to be just the place to hang. It's a corner of cyberspace well inhabited by fascinating characters and vivid opinions. It's very much alive. If your window on the world is a computer monitor, it's not hard to see this place as your neighborhood, these people as your people. And when you don't interact well with people in real life . . . this place is not much different.

BTW, this is NOT meant as any sort of criticism or condemnation of anybody with any kind of disease or disorder. One of my favorite people around here has been courageously up front and honest about his struggles and I'm not talking about him at all, so if he's reading this he can just knock being oversensitive off right now. And we have even had a case where we had a poster with many problems of all kinds and the Teeming Millions helped him turn his life around; we helped him GET a life, outside of his house, away from his computer. Last I heard he was in college and doing fine.

There's an excellent example of this kind of strange and bad behavior I've been talking about. It's happening right now on the alt.fan.Cecil Adams newsgroup. John/Cyberian is over there now, desperately trying to ignite arguments with combatants from our days on AOL, bringing up old arguments and insults he previously hurled . . . while simultaneously denying that he is/was that poster from those old days. Reading over the threads, it's like seeing an accident happen in front of you; you don't want to look, but you keep looking in some sort of horrid fascination. It's beyond losing your head over a dispute, it's miles past wanting to have the last word, imho it's illustrative of someone with some serious problems.

Not all trolls are mentally ill; not all people that are mentally ill are trolls. But sometimes that's the way to bet.

your humble TubaDiva
(who could probably stand to have her head candled her own self)

[Bricker]

Originally posted by Anti Pro:
Two questions, Rick, have you ever participated in any other message board to know if this is a common problem, and are there certain characteristics these people seem to share??

In my previous message board experience, people did these sorts of things too... but not, as Tuba describes, in full battle mode such as we've seen here.

I can't really offer a view as to characteristics, except to endorse Tuba's excellent commentary with respect to the idea that when your window to the world is your computer monitor... it's not always such a great situation.

- Rick

[Triskadecamus]

I have been on quite a few message boards, Web boards, (New York Times Forums and a few others). Open to the public boards are, in many ways much more subject to recurring invasions by people with odd purposes. I have some subscription forums as well, and they are far less prone to trolling and sock-puppeting because you don’t have to spend money to get your jollies talking with yourself, or baiting the opinionated. People do resort to name calling and insults, though even in boards purportedly limited to discussions of academic research, and scientific study.

I have also been on AOL boards, Prodigy boards, and GEnie boards, and even some old fido relayed DOS boards, and text based BBS message boards. Everyone has to put up with childish behavior, sometimes even from real children. In one particular case, on an old BBS board the most active fifteen or twenty posters actually did manage to implement a real behavior modification program that worked. No reply to any post which included ad hominem address, profanity, or egregious insult to groups. None at all, not even a tsk tsk. Yeah, the newbies did respond, at times, but since ten percent of the posters provide half the responses, it really shows.

It works, by the way. The trolls still come by, and they type all caps follow-up posts demanding a reply. But they get bored real fast. And they go away. After a year, I noticed that no troll posted more than about seven times. Most not more than three. Think about those numbers. You have a page down key, and on this board it will bring you to a post worth reading, more often than not. Why spend your time providing behavioral reinforcement for some dimwit? Unless you really think you can bring the light of truth to the trolls of the world. Me, I figure if you want to fight ignorance, you start with the folks who are listening.

Tris

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Imagine my signature begins five spaces to the right of center.

[Anti Pro]

Dear humble TubaDiva, who certainly doesn't SOUND like she "could probably stand to have her head candled her own self" :D

{{{{For those that are forced into a life of the mind by the world's limitations on them, this little hothouse seems to be just the place to hang. It's a corner of cyberspace well inhabited by fascinating characters and vivid opinions. It's very much alive. If your window on the world is a computer monitor, it's not hard to see this place as your neighborhood, these people as your people. And when you don't interact well with people in real life . . . this place is not much different.}}}}}

I finally GET it, with your word picture, it conjured up 'Rear Window' with Jimmy Stewart using his binoculars/camera lens as one lonely for social discourse, in this case, what is being used is the computer monitor. Which explains the tenacity and persistence of those 'visitors', drawn time and again using lies/excuses or anything else at their disposal 'to keep hangin' in the 'hood'

You encapsulated the ideal answer to the many times my question will be asked by any newbie, it should be cross stitched and hung next to the Straight Dope sign with a P.S. from Tris,
{{{No reply to any post which included ad hominem address, profanity, or egregious insult to groups. None at all, not even a tsk tsk. }}}}

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Judy


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"Erlich, the woman is a TURNIP!!"
"I know, but my mom always told me to eat my vegetables!"

[RTFirefly]

Well spoken, Tris. I couldn't have said it better myself! ;)

::Looks up, sees the topic has shifted from sock puppets to trolls::

Now, if we can just get a few hundred regulars to buy into your program, Tris, we'd be all set - I think here, 15-20 regs wouldn't be anywhere near enough.