Still more penis questions

[G. Nome]

How can the concept of male "flashing" still exist? The penis (etc) is increasingly visible in movies and television and in programmes like Sex and the City women flaunt sexual confidence. If things can change so quickly on what grounds was exposure of the penis to women ever seen as a terrible crime? Is there a law against women exposing their genitals to men (in an unrequested way)?

[Annie-Xmas]

Females flashing their genitals? Hell, there
are still people who complain about women
who breast feed in public.

[tracer]

I, for one, feel that there ought to be more flashing. Particularly done by females. ;)

[ChiefScott]

The laws are there to "prevent" men from flashing, not to keep women from viewing.

There is a big difference between a woman renting Boogie Nights and another unknowingly being shown a male member in public.

In the same vein, (and will probably illustrate my point better) it is the "peeper" who is guilty, not the "Peepee", and he (usually) is the reason why the law was enacted.

I'm sure other poster will tell you men who display their genitalia in public have a mental health issue. For me, weewee waving is wrong. Period.

I know of no specific laws banning women from exposing their genitalia, a la flashing. But I'm sure most DA's (if pushed) would treat the law as androgynous.

There are enough moral, blue or zoning laws preventing a woman from showing a little rug. Most municipalities probably feel a "female flasher" law would be redundant given that an offender could be charged under one of them.

[handy]

Its against the law in the US to flash yourself but is not against the law to do it in films because films are rated on who can see the peepees.

Women only have pubic hair to flash & most are too modest to do so.

[Sentinel]

Too shy to do so?

I think I have a couple of exotic dancers you need to meet. You've got to be careful just WHAT beach you take them to or they'll 'disturb' the male population deliberately.

BTW, I've been in strip clubs in some cities where they forbid anything but topless dancing, and, as most of us club hopping men know, on Friday and Saturday nights, in those 'seedier' :D clubs, the more stoned or drunk the dancers get the more they show and the more they earn in tips, so bottoms come off.

Unless someone in an important position - like a city councilman who did not get his weenie whacked by a dancer - gets upset -- nothing will be done. Piss one off, and then the exposure laws are enacted, the bar can be closed for the night, the girls exposing their bottoms arrested and fined and the club owner fined.

Personally, I also am all for more female flashers.

Guy flashers = mental problems? Perhaps but more in the psychosexual aspect. They get a sexual thrill from exposing themselves -- which is not to be compared to male or female exhibitionists.

Cops don't take kindly to this form of thing from men. In one case, local cops arrested a guy who was wandering around with no pants at night. Shirt and sneakers, but no pants. They arrested him, tossed him in the car and processed him in without giving him any 'cover' until he had to sit around. They did this to humiliate him. Now, they have caught a few nude girls wandering around at night and ALWAYS wrap them carefully in a blanket as soon as they can and process them in covered.

(Sometimes, it gets real interesting around here.)

[Jo3sh]

I, for one, feel that there ought to be more flashing. Particularly done by females. ;)


Seconded. Or thirded, maybe, since Sentinel beat me to it.

At any rate, record my vote as a "hell, yeah!"

[SPOOFE]

I'm against clothing in general. Clothing, in my mind, should only be used to protect against the elements. In a perfect world, we'd all go around naked. Of course, we'd also all have perfectly chiseled hardbodies, too, so nobody would mind.

Here's a thought... whenever you're watching "Cops" and they arrest someone for "lewd conduct", how come it's always someone who looks like a horses ass? Could there be a connection?

[G. Nome]

Women have more than pubic hair to flash which should become evident when movie directors find the female equivalent of Euan MacGregor who seems to have taken off his pants in just about every film he has made without developing psycho-sexual problems. Theoretically, the Phantom Menace should be X rated. As they used to say in Creem magazine, probably, for god's sake put'em away or get another pair.

A quick poll of people here in my living room who saw Phantom Menace with me last summer indicates that no, the young Obi-Wan Kenobi didn't take his clothes off, nor do they seem to think that the movie should be X-rated.

So, the question is, what movie DID you see in which Ewan McGregor takes off his clothes?

Are you saying that because Ewan McGregor takes his clothes off in OTHER movies, that therefore Phantom Menace should be rated X? Golly. Julie Andrews had a topless scene in S.O.B. Should we go back and stick an R rating on Mary Poppins, retroactively?

Also just want to point out that an actor stripping down for a movie is considerably different from someone flashing his penis at women in front of the Safeway.

For one thing, the actor gets paid for it.

[G. Nome]

Two films in which Ewan MacGregor wears no pants: Velvet Goldmine and The Pillowbook. Essentially it's about motivation isn't it? In my country nudists seem to have embraced multi-culturalism and their wishes to be seen fully frontal on television in family viewing time are suddenly respected. The rights of bathers to be naked on nude beaches are also respected. Ewan MacGregor's rights are respected. But the motivation of the guy serving 8 months in jail for the same thing has not been seen in the same light. That may be unfair, who's to say? A Taliban from Afghanistan cannot shift to America and lay complaints about women who don't wear veils. How can people in a liberal country which supports casual nudity complain about seeing a nude penis outside of a movie theatre?

[handy]

Can only say 285 views were done for this subject post & only 11 posts...that means lots of people here seem to be sexual lurkers :-)

[lswote]

Annie-Xmas:

Females flashing their genitals? Hell, there
are still people who complain about women
who breast feed in public.


I am not particularly happy about woman breastfeeding in public, but it is more from the standpoint of someone having a drink and not offering me one. ;)

[Dragwyr]

I am not particularly happy about woman breastfeeding in public, but it is more from the standpoint of someone having a drink and not offering me one. ;)


Well, would you like to eat YOUR lunch in the bathroom?

[G. Nome]

For some reason these replies seem cut and pasted from the Reader's Digest circa 1959. I think men should have more self-respect - report those holes in the changing room wall next time. According to these answers women can pay to watch, watch inadvertently, ask to see, ask to touch, look through windows and not serve one minute in Jackson county. All flashers can do is wait for genitical modification - perhaps something that looks extra pretty in a bubble-gum flavour.

[Jvanhorn]

Can only say 285 views were done for this subject post & only 11 posts...that means lots of people here seem to be sexual lurkers :-)


This may be true, but how do he know?

[Profane]

What about the fact that a lot flashers target children, is that ok? Flashees are also often older women. If it were my kid or grandma I'd be really pissed.
When I watch movies with full frontal male nudity, I don't stare. There is only one penis I am interested in and it belongs to Mr Lunasea.
.

[capybara]

Well, to me the effects of full-frontal in a movie I'm watching and getting flashed in a park are not similar. At the theatre, it's my decision, and it's a more removed, consumer, "safe" experience. When you are flashed, it's more of a subtle form of assault-- the person is right there, physically present and threatening, you have little choice and are usually surprised by it, and you are very uncertain about their motives/intentions. The relationship between the viewer and the exposed person are very different in each case. Perhaps it's a gendered thing-- when guys think about naked women exposing themselves perhaps they thing "nudie bar" (a viewing experience more like the film version, with that sort of intention behind it?) while women thinking of exposed men think "possibly-insane rapist freak in a trenchcoat and socks at the park" (with confusing and questionable intention behind it).
Not trying to start a gender dispute here. The nudie bar thing goes from male strippers, as well. An intention and context issue, really.

[G. Nome]

The crime of flashing is surely victim-biased but I don't see why grandmothers should be worthy of a greater degree of victim-hood. Why buy into the whole grandmother thing at all - it's something made up by Hallmark to sell cards with flowers on. Grandmothers of necessity know a great deal about anatomy and are unlikely to be afraid of it. My original question was about women and the penis not children in any way. It was about how taboos surrounding it are quickly disappearing and whether the law is out of sync with this.

[Profane]

Grandmothers are a conspiracy of the Hallmark Corp?

[G. Nome]

Look at the home pages of Lycos, Webcrawler, Yahoo etc at the moment. They are promoting Mother's Day (and grandmother's day) gifts. Your average 30 year old Goth mother can barely remember the Sex Pistols. A lot of grandmothers, though, probably had an unhealthy interest in safety pins in the 70s. But what are Lycos's gift suggestions? Romance novels and flower arranging equipment. Q.E.D. The image of motherhood is a false one. The list of films to-take-mother-to by one search engine is especially bad. Get over it.

[Profane]

I had my grandmother in mind when I posted. She is almost 80.
You asked in the OP why flashing is still illegal. I wanted to point out that even though most women my age probably wouldn't be bothered too much by it, the law is there to protect those who would be intimidated. Children and old people are not as physically strong and are much more likely to feel threatened.

If some guy wants to wave his dick around he should go to a nude beach or something. He shouldn't expose himself to unsuspecting park goers.

[DavisMcDavis]

Originally posted by G. Nome
How can people in a liberal country which supports casual nudity complain about seeing a nude penis outside of a movie theatre?

How can people in a liberal country which supports casual sex be opposed to sexual intercourse when it occurs outside a consensual relationship between two adults?

Maybe it's different on your planet, but here on mine the Pillow Book was rated R, which gives a hint that Ewan's pee-pee had the possibility of going for a little jog outside his pants, aside from the fact that children are - usually - prohibited from viewing. I think there's a big difference between me choosing to go see the Pillow Book and some perv in the park flashing his John Thomas at me without my asking, not the least of which is the fact that I would very much like to see Ewan's light saber and am willing to pay $9.50 for it, whereas some old fart can keep it to himself, thank you very much.

[Primaflora]

Originally posted by G. Nome
In my country nudists seem to have embraced multi-culturalism and their wishes to be seen fully frontal on television in family viewing time are suddenly respected.

Hang on. I thought you were a New Zealander? WTF is the connection between multi culturaliam and nudity? Aside from Dun Mihaka being locked up so he can't moon Liz Windsor?

Things have changed one hell of a lot in a short period of time if suddenly people are running round nude and calling it biculturalism. I sure as hell didn't see rude bits on prime time TV 6 months ago. You got any cites for this ludicrous assertion?

[JoltSucker]

I was once flashed by a woman while we were both sitting at a stoplight. Her boyfriend was driving, and I looked over at the girlfriend, who besides being very cute, reminded me of someone I used to know. All of a sudden, she reaches down her shirt and pulls a breast out. As I stared, dumbfounded, her boyfriend leaned over, pointed to her breast, and shouted out the window "Isn't she great?" I muttered "yeah, she's amazing". What I meant was I couldn't believe she had done it.

I was less than 2 miles from home, and when the light turned, they started to follow me. Since I was going home to wife and kids, I quickly lost them. When I got home, I said to my wife "you'll never believe what just happened to me", and proceeded to tell the story. Her only response was, "well, did you call the police?" I had the good sense to keep my mouth shut, because otherwise I would have said something like "you're not very clear on the concept, are you?'

[Satchmo]

I don't have any experiences to match joltsuckers, (must be my breath or my car or something...) but the best response to a flasher I've ever heard about was what Bernadette Peters said in the movie "Pink Cadillac". When she was confronted by a flasher, she looked at him and said "It looks like a penis,.... only smaller."

[Voorvie]

DavisMcDavis wrote: How can people in a liberal country which supports casual sex be opposed to sexual intercourse
when it occurs outside a consensual relationship between two adults?

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding this quote, but to me this sounds like people should support rape. Am I way off here? Please explain what you mean. Thanks!

[andros]

I think you did miss the point, Voorvie. Happens to all of us.

Seems to me that Davis was making a silly statement in order to point out the silliness of G. Nome's previous silly statement. He wasn't really making the argument you thought he was.

And, er, Davis, did anything specific spark the thread resurrection? Not that I mind, I was just a little surprised.

[Sofa King]

I think it comes down to solicited versus unsolicited. Let's take the sex thing out of it at see how it looks:

I go to see the latest Arnold flick. At the end of the film, there is a park scene where the evil homeless bad-guy crashes his shopping cart into a fountain and vaporizes in an enormous gasoline explosion. His head tumbles out of the sky to impale itself on the antenna of Arnold's Hummer like an enormous tennis ball. I chuckle, hit myself in the head for not reading a film review once in awhile, and walk home.

On the way home, as I take a shortcut through the park, an enormous musclebound Austrian with a flamethrower immolates a homeless person on a park bench in front of me. Then, he produces a spear gun and pins the homeless man's flaming body to a tree. Slowly, he turns to me. "Hi there," he says, "I'm Arnold, and I've been forced to do street performance art to pay off the dismal opening-weekend performance of my latest film. How did you like my little charade?"

Well, chances are, it scared me sh*tless. And the emotions I experienced while actually there in the park are far, far different from what I experienced in the theatre. And for a second there, I saw my life pass before my eyes. Granted, I'm a cheap guy, and my tolerance for art is as broad as a Christo fence line, but I didn't ask for this.

Maybe I'll sue Arnold for his Gulfstream before the studio takes it back. Maybe I'll try to kick his ass. Maybe I'll keel over from a heart attack. Maybe I'll cry, or run, or babble incoherently, or ask for his autograph. But I can guarantee you I will not simply chuckle and continue walking home. Why? Because movies aren't real.

[Keeve]

Originally posted by Notthemama
A quick poll of people here in my living room who saw Phantom Menace with me last summer indicates that no, the young Obi-Wan Kenobi didn't take his clothes off, nor do they seem to think that the movie should be X-rated.But there was full-frontal nudity of Superman in the first (1979?) Christopher Reeve flick. Check out the very first scene after he emerges from his rocket from Krypton.

[toadspittle]

Originally posted by Keeve
But there was full-frontal nudity of Superman in the first (1979?) Christopher Reeve flick. Check out the very first scene after he emerges from his rocket from Krypton.

Yes. Despite what the papers say, the MPAA has always been very soft on kiddie porn.

[G. Nome]

This might be a good opportunity to enquire about the fortunes of Notthemama, who, as far as I know, was last seen disappearing into a Ewan MacGregor film festival. Is there a back row in some obscure duplex somewhere, in which her rotting remains might possibly be located?

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Handy: You are soooo right.

Satchmo: In her short story "Southern Comfort," found in her collection Foggy Mountain Breakdown, Sharyn McCrumb has a female character tell a flasher: "I've seen Vienna sausages that were more impressive. You want a pair of tweezers so you can jack off?"

[G. Nome]

To Primaflora (and anyone else interested): As I understand it (which is probably at quarter strength to a lot of other people here) a politically strong nudist cult is supported by a morally relativistic zeitgeist in which there are no absolute moral laws and in which social philosophies are adopted which address the rights of the "other". A politics of contingency and pluralism expressses incredulity towards the metanarratives and calls for toleration of the diversity of cultures. Now, some people see this as a morally offensive standpoint since it lends support to immoral cultures and it permits violations of universal standards of human decency. But it has its good sides.

Whatever, I think it means that first you create a cult, e.g. a nudist group, and then you get that cult tolerated. What I could never get was why this climate of respect allowed the Freddy (Nightmare on Elm Street) phenomenon to develop. Freddy dolls are a blot on society as far as I'm concerned because they certainly demonstrate a horrible inconsideration for burns victims.

[Coldfire]

Aside from all the work G. Nome just had to do looking up all these words in her dictionary, I would like to point out the following.

If you're gonna be snotty and use foreign words, try to do it correctly. The word "Zeitgeist" is German, and thus needs to be capitalised even when used mid-sentence.

And I dare G. Nome to explain her last post in plain English.

[G. Nome]

It is in plain English and just because I haven't read Barthes, Lacan, Derrida, Foucault and Baurillard all the way through doesn't mean I didn't write it without a dictionary. You can do it too, if you remember to include incredulity towards the metanarratives. That's the best bit, you know that, I know that.

[Abe]

When I was about 24, I was on holiday in Toronto, visiting a friend who was, like me, a student. Friend went into a Hi-fi shop to see the progress of repair work on his beloved stereo. I was browsing around, wondering why these stores have so little stuff you can actually look at. It was about 11 AM.

Suddenly, a fairly good-looking girl, mid-20s, dark hair, with a very nice body is standing a couple of metres away from me. She looks at me and smiles. I smile and think nothing of it. I saunter around trying not to die of boredom while I am waiting for my friend to finish with his goddamned stereo affairs. I lean on the sales counter.

Suddenly, the girl is there too, leaning lasciviously on the counter, only a few handspans away from me. She winks at me. I smile. I wonder what the heck is going on.

Suddenly, the girl is a lot closer and grabbing my ass. I move away slightly, check my wallet is still there (it is) and say some inanity like "can my ass help you?"

Suddenly, in the middle of this store, the woman raises the sweater she was wearing and flashes me her breasts (breasts, not bra or other top). It was more of a constant exposure than a flash, because she did not seem to want to put them away again. Still holding her sweater up, she started to sway around and move closer. Her breasts jiggled. I had still not heard one word from her. In my University days I broke a few heads belonging to uneducated bullies, but I found myself wondering how to react to this situation. No one had ever thrown thesmelves naked at me in daytime in a public place. Eventually, since this woman was not speaking at all, I walked away to find my friend.

The woman put her breasts away and started walking around the store. I tried to explain to my friend that there was something strange going on, but he was a little too involved in discussions with the store owner about the stereo.

Suddenly, the girl is there again, and this time she has managed to intertwine her four limbs with mine in a matter of split-seconds. I have no idea how she did it, but when I turned around to make her keep her distance all I could see when I looked down were breasts, and I could not move very well owing to the embrace. Talk about being freaked out. Again, I checked for my wallet (still there). Then I tried to extricate myself from the woman without hurting her and without touching too much naked flesh. I'm not prudish, but I don't touch women I don't know, out of respect, safety, and the fact that something like this in N. America can end up being a sexual assault case against me!

Throughout this entire exchange, the store owner and my friend are continuing heir discussion. When I extricate myself from the desirous woman, the owner grabs a newspaper and shoos her away. She looks at him with another lascivious expression and moves away a bit. I ask the owner who she is, and he replies that he has no idea and has never seen her before. The girl still has not uttered a single word.

To make a long story short, this girl kept following me around to show me her breasts, rub them against me, and touch me. I did not hear her speak a single word. Throughout the 20 minutes or so this took,

1) the owner did not seem too concerned, although he tried to shoo her off a couple of times

2) my friend was bewildered but more eager to talk about his stereo than to focus on a young woman with a willing attitude

3) other shoppers did not seem bothered! They looked, their mouths opened, and then they continued shopping, perhaps making comments to each other while staring at exposed tits.

From my point of view, although there is nothing I enjoy seeing more than the female body, the experience was quite disturbing. Flashing is an invasion of privacy as well as an insult and an attempt to assert authority over the flashee. If it is unsolicited, flashing a stranger is much ruder than giving them the finger and a stream of insults.

I like seeing strippers, naked women, revealing clothes, pornographic films, and so on, but I was not comfortable with being flashed and followed around like that, even though I knew at all times that I was in no physical danger.

Using the same reasoning, I suspect that women may enjoy seeing the male body live and in media, but that is no reason why they should be pestered <i>with</i> the male body as a tool for pestering.

Make love, don't pester people.

[darkcool]

All I can say, Manny, is that you can be fickle. GQ? Really!

[G. Nome]

Mind your own business Darkcool. My original question was intelligent enough to require a proper answer, and although Abe goes a long way towards that there's still something missing. He says exposure is ok if it's asked for by the spectator. So now I understand how it's ok for the Red Hot Chillie Peppers and Blink 182 to go naked at their concerts. You buy a ticket with the expectation that might happen. You've given your ok. But does that then mean it's ok for men to go bottomless at the next Woodstock in place of the traditionally topless women? If not why not?

[Abe]

Let me put it this way:

Average man wants to see average woman naked in public because of lust.

Average woman wants to see average man naked in pubic only on very rare occasions, and then it's usually for a good laugh with friends, not for lust.

This does not imply women do not have lust, just that they handle it differently from men. Men tend to be more visually oriented than women. The sexes respond in different ways. Just because we men want to see naked women all the time does not excuse us to go flash women.

Now here's a take on the situation that will probably cause a lot of controversy, but I include it just because it popped up in my head and I thought it was curious.

Think of our ancestors. Men like naked women around them because it gives them the impression that they are the leader of the tribe with access to all the females. That's a great feeling. Whereas women surrounded by naked men will be intimidated because very few women actually like a gangbang, and a gangbang is implied when you're a woman surrounded by naked men. Sex is an affirmation of power throughout the animal kingdom, and the male sexual organ is often how this power is exercised. In our times, "Suck my cock" is the same as saying "I am the superior alpha male here, so pay me the homage I deserve you worthless trash".

A flaunted penis is a sign of dominance and an assertion of power, and I suspect that is why it causes so much offense when flashers flash. That simple gesture implies, to our animal natures, that the flasher is the dominant male and will have his way with whomever he wants. That is also precisely why flashers flash--it gives them a sense of power (the same goes with rape). The wonderful world of animal signals....

[manhattan]

Originally posted by darkcool
All I can say, Manny, is that you can be fickle. GQ? Really!

Heh. Full confession time: I've read this thread perhaps a dozen times, and still I have no idea on Ghod's Green Earth what it's about! It ain't GQ, I'm pretty sure of that, but I don't know where to move it.

If someone could translate for me and lend an assist, I'd certainly be grateful.

confus-ed, I am

[Cartooniverse]

Originally posted by manhattan
Originally posted by darkcool
All I can say, Manny, is that you can be fickle. GQ? Really!

Heh. Full confession time: I've read this thread perhaps a dozen times, and still I have no idea on Ghod's Green Earth what it's about! It ain't GQ, I'm pretty sure of that, but I don't know where to move it.

If someone could translate for me and lend an assist, I'd certainly be grateful.confus-ed, I am

<----- Howling with delight. Manny, if you've read this thread a dozen times....well.... you CLEARLY have a need to know everything there is to know about flashing. <grin>. I see a borderline obsession here...... :D

Cartooniverse

[little*bit]

Noone seems to have mentioned this, so I will. It is just as illegal for a woman to flash as it is for a man. I believe the charge in both cases would be indecent exposure.

[G. Nome]

Well, Manhatten can choose between Sigmund, Lucien or Clement as far as I'm concerned but I think a Freud may be what he needs.

I've gotten tired of this thread but I'll have one more go at stating clearly "what I mean". Before the mid nineties penises had never ever been seen in movies, television, or print media. Male strip shows for women did not exist until about the same time. Exposing the penis was not seen as a possible form of entertainment for females but as a criminal offense. It was considered a fact of "nature" that women were harmed by the sight of it in some way. In the last decade that idea has surely been undermined by Chippendale's sleazoid female audiences and the ubiquitous baring of male genitalia in the mass media. So, before 1990, say, women's attitudes were in keeping with the law. Now they aren't. But they now live a hypocritical life in which, on the way home from the strip club, should they see the same thing they paid to see, they can have the owner of that thing arrested. Should male exposure of the penis to women now incur a lesser penalty? Why was it ever seen as worthy of a long term of imprisonment if female psychology has proven to be so malleable?

Be a Freud be very a Freud. I can't help it.